PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Knotter8 on April 18, 2006, 04:02:22 AM
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A good feature on gamespy about this topic :
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p1.html (http://www.gamespy.com/articles/701/701787p1.html)
It\'s pretty obvious to see why I don\'t like marketing guys. Quality > Quantity is one of my motto\'s, so I don\'t like the marketing dude.
With the upcoming E3 i think this is a good food for thought. Next gen might make some devs to \'play it safe\' and aim mass mainstream but they also know
that there will be developers who will push the enevelope.
I\'m happy to see that devs still bother to make great action adventure single player games like ES4:Oblivion, Alan Wake, DreamFall:The longestJourney etc.
I know i should contribute a bit more myself by picking up games like ShadowOfTheCollossus, Okami, Katamari Damaci and such, to support those developers. Of course time & money will always be a slight issue...
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Unfortunately the more hardware advavnce and open doors to bigger possibilities at the same time games become more complex, need more time and money to make.
Its riskier to experiment or try something new.
Ofcourse the big old time developers like Capcom, Konami, Namco etc and recently Sony\'s studios have the talents and the money to back up huge AAA titles. So things arent that bad.
Smaller developers though will take a huge hit. Most chances are small developers will merge with the big ones but its very unfortunate that many talents lose some of their independence since many publishers care only about easy cash, and rarely want to risk for creativity.
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No they don\'t.
The gaming industry is the next movie industry and the fact is, the industry will pump out countless generic games and sequels, just like the movie industry. In the meantime, the "hardcore" section will just be happy when they get a new Nintendo first party title or the rare third party title that stands out above the rest. The "hardcore" gamer has not really counted since gaming became so popular.
Also, I think the "hardcore" gamer is moving towards the PC end of things, if for no other reason because of the community that most games can harvest with mods and what not.
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Actually, LiC, it seems like hardcore gamers have panned Rare since the N64 days. Higher expectations.
You\'re right, though. We don\'t matter.
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Personally what changed today compared to the past is that games for hardcore gamers arent reduced. I am positive that they actually increased. The main difference is that games appealing to a broader view have increased more.
Usually the self proclaimed hardcore gamers complaining that they dont matter as much as previously are the ones that were very very young back in the old days and games appealed mostly to the younger audience which is far less than today\'s which includes both teen and mature ages.
With other words many of these compare the old days when gamers were few with today that are many and dont like the fact that they dont belong to the "minority" of the "unique" and that more people play the games they play.
For example: Pro Evo soccer is the best most complicated football game money can buy IMO. Its deep and has everything a hardcore gamer wants. Today countless of gamers care about it, both hardcore and non-harcdore gamers play it, but hardcore gamers playng PES are a lot lot more compared to the number of hardcore gamers that would have playied it 15 years back if it existed back then.
Some "ex-hardcore" gamers tend to complain that its a game appealing to the masses just because too many gamers play it while they avoid the fact that hardcore gamers today are more because more gamers can have the chance to try games thus more potential hardcore gamers can emerge.
Another example is MK. Some "ex-hardcore" gamers loved MK, a fighting game that actually sucked compared to Street Fighter, KOF etc but was praised thanks to its "real looking" graphics and violence. MK today is relatively less appealing than in the past IMO than Tekken, SC and VF than what it used to be compared to the fighting games of the past
What I dont like today compared to the past is the fact that some "mediocre" games get more popularity than they deserve (EA\'s games anyone?).
Even more what I dont like is that some old timer developers or not so old timers tend to get their old franchises and then ruin them or at the best case scenario remain static.
An example for that is SEGA. Ruined Shinobi with the new installments, and totally murdered Sonic with the latest Sonic games (Shadow:Sonic game with GUNS?? :mad:).
Other examples:
Tomb Raider has gone from great to worse.
Wipeout from great to mediocre.
FF although great still playing almost like the old 80s 90s final fantasy games.
SEGA remade all time classics just with prettier graphics(ex:Golden Axe)
Other things I dont like:
We are being bombarded with FPS shooters (just check the list of next gen console games)
Countless PC-Console/Console-PC ports (especially war games BLEH)
Not a worthy Sonic game since the DC days (if we exclude the new DS game)
Not a worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)
Waiting for a Phantasy Star worthy of the crown the old ones got
Arcades suck now!!Where are the good old times when people showed their skill and everyone gathered to watch or compete?
I miss the old style PC with a "character".
Games based on movies that sell because of the movie popularity (King Kong, Enter the Matrix etc)
WHY THE HELL THEY FUCKED UP WORMS BY MAKING IT 3D?? :mad:
etc etc
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Actually, LiC, it seems like hardcore gamers have panned Rare since the N64 days. Higher expectations.
You\'re right, though. We don\'t matter.
You mistunderstood me. I was not speaking of Rare, the developer. I was saying that the hardcore gamer looks forward to the RARE third party title that stands out above the rest. It seems now\'a\'days, if it isn\'t a first party or sometimes second party title, it isn\'t all that great. I remember a time when I swore by Capcom but hell, other than maybe Okami (spell check?) when is the last time they made an outstandin game (I know, RE 4........) .
Some "ex-hardcore" gamers tend to complain that its a game appealing to the masses just because too many gamers play it while they avoid the fact that hardcore gamers today are more because more gamers can have the chance to try games thus more potential hardcore gamers can emerge.
Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,
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Not a worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)
Counting spinoffs, this is completely off-base. Not counting spin-offs, still off-base.
What is people\'s problem with Super Mario Sunshine? I got about 117 Shines in it on my best run, and played it through at least twice. Probably 50-60 hours of gameplay, at least. It had some shortcomings but was definitely a 9/10.
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Not a worthy Mario game since the N64(or even the NES/SNES times)
Mario Kart?
Super Mario 64?
Paper Mario?
Quit talkin out of your ass. The only Mario I didn\'t care for was Sunshine.
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And the upcoming Nintendo DS SMB platformer is, if nothing else, promising.
-Dan
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Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,
On the other side of that coin, however, ARE the art/indie games/films that cater to the niche groups. No, you\'re right, the casual gamer will dictate the far majority of games, but that is not to say that all of a sudden we\'re going to take a loss of innovative titles. If anything, we took that loss back during the PSX days.
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Mario Tennis and Mario Golf are also fun gems no one seems man enough to play!
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On the other side of that coin, however, ARE the art/indie games/films that cater to the niche groups. No, you\'re right, the casual gamer will dictate the far majority of games, but that is not to say that all of a sudden we\'re going to take a loss of innovative titles. If anything, we took that loss back during the PSX days.
That is exactly what I said.
We took that loss when gaming became a popular medium. Yes, there will always be a few games that are niche\' and people "hardcore" enjoy, but they are few and far in bewteen and with gaming becoming even more popular, those games will fade more and more.
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Mario Kart?
Super Mario 64?
Paper Mario?
Quit talkin out of your ass. The only Mario I didn\'t care for was Sunshine.
1)I was refering to the platform games
2)Oh look I said N64=Nintendo 64=Mario64
And if I was wrong about Mario then big deal. Thats not the point anyways.
Terrible logic. Why? Because these "hardcore games" that may "emerge" never get the hype they deserve. Why? Because studio\'s don\'t know how to market them to the casual gamer, it is easier to market a game like Grand Theft Auto 2099 (heh), due to name brand. Or hell, for that matter Madden 2009. Not to mention the casual gamer very rarely picks up these games and then the studio considers it a loss. When gaming became a mass industry, when it became popular, it started to cater to the largest group and the largest group, the casual gamers, want quick fixes, not something that makes them think. And that is why games will always be looked upon as nothing more than, games...Not art.,
PES, Shadow of Colossus, Viewtiful Joe, DMC1 & DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War are perfect examples of AAA games that can appeal to hardcore and casual gamers.
I didnt hint out that what you just mentioned doesnt happen. I already pointed out what you said in my examples. Both what you say(which I also said) and what I said in the part you quoted happen. It depends on the games. Some hardcore games do emerge and sometimes they pull both hardcore and casual gamers. Its just that games like GTA, Fifa etc also exist and they are more than they used to be. Tekken, SC and VF are examples of games that have a share of both casual and hardcore gamers.
You just tend to refer to everything as if only one side of the coin exists. And because of that I am sure you also belong to those supposed "ex-hardcore" gamers that complain because for you the bigger the number of gamers occupied with a title the more you automatically translate this to "game appealing to the masses only" avoiding that in reality some of these titles also have a share of hardcore gamers -->see PES.
And its not like the kind of gamers that praise GTA today as the best thing ever didnt exist years ago. Mortal Kombat succeeded the same way back in the "good old times" and was being praised by many as a superb fighting game when Street Fighter2 and other fighting games were better in every way by difference.
Also as Phill said innovative titles wont dissapear all of the sudden.
You tend to refer to things as if in the past we got hundreds of innovative and original titles (yeah right) and now we get one or two by the same developers which is totally untrue.
We still get enough innovative titles. Only relatively to the numbers of mass appealing games these titles seem fewer compared to the past.
I know one thing. That in the hundreds of mass appealing games I also get enough superb innovative and creative titles from some old classic or new developers that also become a success.
I dont play GTA, I dont play FIFA, I dont buy games based on movies (enter the matrix was an exception and I sold it back), I hate the NFS series, I appreciate and buy many games that arent of mass appeal, and I still find enough great games to master and still wait for others to be released or reach my area like Okami (which I loved since I learned about it last summer) to keep me a happy gamer.
I know that there are also more and tons of uncreative succesful games in the shelves-more compared to years ago but I dont give a shit about these. If I ever want to give them a try out of curiosity I ll pirate them to "harm" them and satisfy my curiosity at the same time.
In the mean time I ll support the most creative titles and buy them original as my thanks to the effort these developers have put to make them.
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The main difficulty I have in following this thread is I don\'t know what a "hardcore" gamer is.
The only thing I think I can say for sure is that if you play Dragonball Z games, you\'re not one.
-Dan
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PES, Shadow of Colossus, Viewtiful Joe, DMC1 & DMC3, Ninja Gaiden, God of War are perfect examples of AAA games that can appeal to hardcore and casual gamers.
Eh?
DMC3 with it\'s difficulity did not appeal to the casual gamer. Same with Ninja Gaiden.
SoC I am willin\' to pet most people don\'t know about and even if they do, it falls into the second party title situation.
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Yeah its true. DMC3\'s and Ninja Gaiden\'s difficulty didnt appeal to the casual gamer but the content is probably what appealed. The same counts for God of War which was also a hard game.
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I agree with the consensus of the article :
The \'developer\' is the one from the \'chain\' who understands or is willing to cater for the \'hardcore gamers\' the most.
Why ? Becuz alot of those devs got into the industry to make the kind of games when they weren\'t in the bizz, but when they themselves were hardcore gamers.
Most likely they don\'t have time to play as much as they once did. But it is a kind of mindset. Especially since the medium of gaming has absorbed alot more assets and aspects as a wholesome mediaform.
My former collegues at Streamline ; all passionate about stuff like great character design (They buy cgi art books from CGtalk featuring cgi artists who work at game studios, showing their work or personal work.) etc. within the games they love for THAT reason.
The \'hardcore mindset\' has evolved into more than just innovative leveldesign or interface programming etc.
Another great example are Metal Gear fans. Go brows their forums ; they live & breath MGS and maybe play few other games. If they are not to be called \'hardcore gamers\' , they\'re certainly NOT casual gamers either...
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I totally agree. Casual gamers are usually the ones that find the MGS series boring and the story stupid since they are usually the ones that crave for mindless action something the series is not.
MGS is the first game IMO that has intellectual value. Some who have also read "1984" would know what I mean. Hideo Kojima is the first person to ever try to create a game thats not just a game but an interactive post modern literature with meaning and thought for our social, political, informational, or even biological structure of the present human consiousness.
Its very apparent that Kojima is highly influenced from literature and science. I am actually very astonished of Kojima\'s personal concerns and questions about the world which he expresses in the series. His points are very spot on to today\'s socialpolitical structure and I admire him for his work and for viewing the gamer like something more than just an uneducated, passive, mindless consumer.
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:laughing:
Sometimes I love Uncron for the pure entertainment value.
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Go read this http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html (http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html)
, now.
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MGS is not the first game with intellectual value. Maybe the first series with major political value, though.
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Well, in that case : The idea behind Pac Man is that it represents mankind in a society of consumers. The Pac Man eats \'dots\'. His shape, is the epitome of
consumerism ; never having enough. A vicious cycle.
These are connotations also widely used in movie analysis and other media.
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:laughing:
Sometimes I love Uncron for the pure entertainment value.
Me: "The earth is round."
You: "hahahahah what a moron! The earth is flat! Cant you see by just looking around you?"
Jumpman wins "the most ignorant member in the forum" award.
Go read this http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html (http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html)
, now.
And that directs a kick right in Jumpman\'s mouth. ;)
I ll give him another one though that will brake his skull and make a brain omelette
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1853410.stm
"He recently earned the acclaim of the American news magazine Newsweek, which named him as one of the top 10 most influential people of 2002."
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I totally agree. Casual gamers are usually the ones that find the MGS series boring and the story stupid since they are usually the ones that crave for mindless action something the series is not.
MGS is the first game IMO that has intellectual value. Some who have also read "1984" would know what I mean. Hideo Kojima is the first person to ever try to create a game thats not just a game but an interactive post modern literature with meaning and thought for our social, political, informational, or even biological structure of the present human consiousness.
Its very apparent that Kojima is highly influenced from literature and science. I am actually very astonished of Kojima\'s personal concerns and questions about the world which he expresses in the series. His points are very spot on to today\'s socialpolitical structure and I admire him for his work and for viewing the gamer like something more than just an uneducated, passive, mindless consumer.
So....I\'m a casual gamer because I think MGS is boring and the story sucks. Ah..
For the record, the story does suck. It is just proof that Kojima, while may be talented, should never attempt to direct a movie. If you want to argue about Kojima producing a game that value, then at least bring up his masterpiece, which is \'Snatcher\'. If anything, the casual gamer is the one who jumps on the MGS bandwagon and praises Kojima to no end without knowing about his past games.
Oh and MGS2 = The bigger suck. That story was a diaster .
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I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though
edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer
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I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though
edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer
Your logic is stupid
1)You imply that gamers that appreciated and loved his older games cant like MGS
2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen.
3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamers like MGS2 for the same reasons
4)You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks
5)You imply that new gamers or even casual gamers cant understand many aspects of the story when the truth is that many times they can understand more than what some hardcore gamers can in MGS2.
6)You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games
7)You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore.
8)You imply that casual gamers cant like Kojima\'s older games and that only hardcore gamers can and the ones that did like his older games cant like MGS2 or ZOE for that matter
9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2
Its a matter of personal taste for some that didnt like the series.
Others that like the series just follow blindly.
Others appreciate and undrstand what the latter cant understand in the series.
Others just like complaining
Others just dont get it
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For the record, the story does suck.
I thought the first one was great for its time. The second one...the plot was more than laughable. "I live on through this arm!"
...
Yeah, lame.
Lots of great discussion in this thread.
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I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though
edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer
Your logic is stupid
1)You imply that gamers that appreciated and loved his older games cant like MGS
2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen.
3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamers like MGS2 for the same reasons
4)You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks
5)You imply that new gamers or even casual gamers cant understand many aspects of the story when the truth is that many times they can understand more than what some hardcore gamers can in MGS2.
6)You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games
7)You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore.
8)You imply that casual gamers cant like Kojima\'s older games and that only hardcore gamers can and the ones that did like his older games cant like MGS2 or ZOE for that matter
9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2
Its a matter of personal taste for some that didnt like the series.
Others that like the series just follow blindly.
Others appreciate and undrstand what the latter cant understand in the series.
Others just like complaining
Others just dont get it
Wow, I believe you do make some great points there and was quite surprise how you manage to come up with that many good points and also surprise and how much time you spent coming up with good points and writing it out.
But I must admit, I got lost even though i am quite sure you know what you are writing. Its late here, I should be sleeping by now, but i thought I visit this forum before I went to bed.
I thought the first one was great for its time. The second one...the plot was more than laughable. "I live on through this arm!"
...
Yeah, lame.
Lots of great discussion in this thread.
I thought I was the one of the few that thought MGS2 story was overwritten and not that good. I agree with you that I thought MGS1 story was better, much better and it\'s classic. The gameplay and story for MGS1 would get a 10/10 for me. One thing I really like about MGS2 is the gameplay which I would give it a 9.5/10, while the story is about 8/10. Had the story makes more sense and stick to reality more and not overly done, it would have been better imo.
Like the arm thing you pointed out. That\'s what i mean by overly done with the story. Same goes with *spoiler*the patriots dead for 200 years and still manage to control the U.S.A....*spoiler end*
The story twist is lame. As if Kojima hopes the gamers would just buy it with whatever excuses how this happen or that happen in the event. *spoiler*If Liquid manage to live with the arm only, I think you can ressurect any past characters that died either in MGS1 or MGS2 but cutting off their arms and keeping it intact and transplant it to another person. See what i mean there. I can come up with other lame possibilities because Kojima come up with the lame excuses of liquid manage to survive with just the arm only through Ocelot body.
That open doors to many great lame possibilities, i can imagine otacon cutting off his sister\'s arm or leg and switch it since she\'s dead and then he can ressurrect her by doing that she will be in him with just the arm and they can communicate with each other in otacon\'s body. Or how about this, cut either snake\'s hand or leg and switch it with Otacon, then they would be able to communicate with each other which could be useful in situation where both couldn\'t be reach via nano communciation. See how lame that could be. Or try threesome body parts. Where Snake will have otacon\'s sister\'s arm, and Otacon\'s foot. Threesome inner communication shouldn\'t be that bad, right? Who knows, during the mission, Snake could just hide in the closet when he\'s in danger and having Otacon\'s sister\'s hand can come in handy for some jobs...*spoiler end*
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Wow, I believe you do make some great points there and was quite surprise how you manage to come up with that many good points and also surprise and how much time you spent coming up with good points and writing it out.
But I must admit, I got lost even though i am quite sure you know what you are writing. Its late here, I should be sleeping by now, but i thought I visit this forum before I went to bed.
I thought I was the one of the few that thought MGS2 story was overwritten and not that good. I agree with you that I thought MGS1 story was better, much better and it\'s classic. The gameplay and story for MGS1 would get a 10/10 for me. One thing I really like about MGS2 is the gameplay which I would give it a 9.5/10, while the story is about 8/10. Had the story makes more sense and stick to reality more and not overly done, it would have been better imo.
Like the arm thing you pointed out. That\'s what i mean by overly done with the story. Same goes with *spoiler*the patriots dead for 200 years and still manage to control the U.S.A....*spoiler end*
The story twist is lame. As if Kojima hopes the gamers would just buy it with whatever excuses how this happen or that happen in the event. *spoiler*If Liquid manage to live with the arm only, I think you can ressurect any past characters that died either in MGS1 or MGS2 but cutting off their arms and keeping it intact and transplant it to another person. See what i mean there. I can come up with other lame possibilities because Kojima come up with the lame excuses of liquid manage to survive with just the arm only through Ocelot body.
That open doors to many great lame possibilities, i can imagine otacon cutting off his sister\'s arm or leg and switch it since she\'s dead and then he can ressurrect her by doing that she will be in him with just the arm and they can communicate with each other in otacon\'s body. Or how about this, cut either snake\'s hand or leg and switch it with Otacon, then they would be able to communicate with each other which could be useful in situation where both couldn\'t be reach via nano communciation. See how lame that could be. Or try threesome body parts. Where Snake will have otacon\'s sister\'s arm, and Otacon\'s foot. Threesome inner communication shouldn\'t be that bad, right? Who knows, during the mission, Snake could just hide in the closet when he\'s in danger and having Otacon\'s sister\'s hand can come in handy for some jobs...*spoiler end*
Yeah...the game was going good until Revolver Ocelot\'s arm, lol. It was still fun, though.
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So....I\'m a casual gamer because I think MGS is boring and the story sucks. Ah..
For the record, the story does suck. It is just proof that Kojima, while may be talented, should never attempt to direct a movie. If you want to argue about Kojima producing a game that value, then at least bring up his masterpiece, which is \'Snatcher\'. If anything, the casual gamer is the one who jumps on the MGS bandwagon and praises Kojima to no end without knowing about his past games.
Oh and MGS2 = The bigger suck. That story was a diaster .
* Sigh * you guys derail the point i was trying to make. I brought up the \'MGS fans\' as an example to illustrate the kind of gamer who might not be occupied with gaming in exactly the same way as hardcore gamers were with games of the pre-16 bit era.
(in 1987 I sometimes played Metal Gear on MSX and at that time i thought it did suck, a bit. of course, i was at the age of 9 back then, which makes a bit of a difference)
I just pointed out to the theories on JunkerHQ to let ppl see that there are indeed interesting social, intellectual, moral issues woven into MGS1 & MGS2\'s story message and, too some extent of succes ; into the plot.
I never claimed MGS2 is the ultimate hardcore game (personally, imho MGS2 is a flawed masterpiece) nor did i claim MGS fans are ultra intellectual hardcore gamers ; but they are surely NO casual gamers.
Imo, Konami games like MGS2, SH2 made alot of ppl think & be interested in topics like ; government control, euthanasia, human heritage, the USA - Russia weapon/space race, etc.
Casual gamers who play some \'fun\' game for a couple of 45 minutes sessions a week, will NOT get the incentive to research into such stuff, simply becuz those games do not trigger that.
My point is that games ...such as MGS, are more likely to include such aspects outside of \'vintage\' gaming ; which in turn evolves & enriches gaming & it\'s audience itself.
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5)You imply that new gamers or even casual gamers cant understand many aspects of the story when the truth is that many times they can understand more than what some hardcore gamers can in MGS2.
6)You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games
1: I never implied any of that.
I simply said that if anything, the mass consumer is the one who jumps on the Kojima bandwagon. Why is that? Because that is the most popular game. I also never said that the mass consumer couldn\'t understand the story, I simply said the story was trash.
I also never implied that just because you didn\'t play the old games you can\'t be "hardcore", tho\' it certainly gives you \'street cred\' ( :D ). I will say that I don\'t take someone serious if they haven\'t played the classics and got into gaming durin\' the 32-bit era.
As for "not getting it"? What is there to get? It had good graphics, original game design and a crap story. I get it . If you like that nonsense story and runnin\' around in stealth, it\'s great game, but for me, a run\'n\'gun guy, it bored me to tears, which is the reason I traded it for my very first VHS porno.
You\'re grasping at straws, which is common for you.
Imo, Konami games like MGS2, SH2 made alot of ppl think & be interested in topics like ; government control, euthanasia, human heritage, the USA - Russia weapon/space race, etc.
If MGS2 made you interested in goverment control, well then I\'d hate to see what other "flawed masterpieces" like \'The Matrix\' does for you.
:Rolleyes:
Oh and PS.
Uni, you\'re the very essence of the mass consumer.
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Go read this http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html (http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html)
, now.
Terrible website. It was tough enough to listen to that terrible dialogue in game. Why would anyone want to analyze every short and horribly insignificant attempt to adress a present day political issue?
"Fan work by: Artemio Urbina 2001-2006"
It\'s a blatent fanboy website. Nuff said.
I really wish sigs could be bigger than five lines, cause I honestly would do the honors of showcasing this work of garbage for everyone to laugh at years to come.
I totally agree. Casual gamers are usually the ones that find the MGS series boring and the story stupid since they are usually the ones that crave for mindless action something the series is not.
MGS is the first game IMO that has intellectual value. Some who have also read "1984" would know what I mean. Hideo Kojima is the first person to ever try to create a game thats not just a game but an interactive post modern literature with meaning and thought for our social, political, informational, or even biological structure of the present human consiousness.
Its very apparent that Kojima is highly influenced from literature and science. I am actually very astonished of Kojima\'s personal concerns and questions about the world which he expresses in the series. His points are very spot on to today\'s socialpolitical structure and I admire him for his work and for viewing the gamer like something more than just an uneducated, passive, mindless consumer.
-No, Kojima is COUNTING ON gamers being uneducated, passive, and a mindless consumer. Like Lic said, that is why MGS is so popular.
-Don\'t throw 1984 into the discussion in a desperate attempt to make you look smarter. Didn\'t work, and wasn\'t relevant.
-MGS was of course definitely not the first game that had intellectual value and its "intellectual value" would be the equilivant of any random Hollywood movie. But of course only you would think this because we all know you have no experience with anything other than Sony system which ironically has proven that they are indeed the greatest company at pulling in the mindless consumer because it is quite apparent that they pulled in you. Snnnap.
-Kojima has been influenced by high selling motion pictures with cheap stories, lots of action, and dumb attempts at trying to throw political themes into the mix in a desperate effort to give the impression of authenticity...which of course always fails.
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mmmm Jumpman\'s brain is SOOO tasty. If only he had more brain to feed my hunger.
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I simply said that if anything, the mass consumer is the one who jumps on the Kojima bandwagon. Why is that? Because that is the most popular game.
"3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamerslike MGS2 for the same reasons"
I also never said that the mass consumer couldn\'t understand the story, I simply said the story was trash.
"2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen."
I also never implied that just because you didn\'t play the old games you can\'t be "hardcore", tho\' it certainly gives you \'street cred\' ( :D ). I will say that I don\'t take someone serious if they haven\'t played the classics and got into gaming durin\' the 32-bit era.
"You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games
You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore."
As for "not getting it"? What is there to get? It had good graphics, original game design and a crap story. I get it . If you like that nonsense story and runnin\' around in stealth, it\'s great game, but for me, a run\'n\'gun guy, it bored me to tears, which is the reason I traded it for my very first VHS porno.
If MGS2 made you interested in goverment control, well then I\'d hate to see what other "flawed masterpieces" like \'The Matrix\' does for you.
:Rolleyes:
"You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks"
Uni, you\'re the very essence of the mass consumer.
"9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2"
Even worse for you, you are the very essence of the mass consumer trying to get the credibility of a hardcore gamer
And most importantly learn to respect others people\'s likings and listen to what th
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What?
-
that\'s the ugliest post i\'ve ever seen
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it hurts my eyes
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I\'ve told you guys some of my arguments about what imo, amongst other parameters, marks a group of ppl who have videogames as a central part of their mindset.
Enough, with all that mudslinging towards eachother and some particular games.
If you truly wanna contribute to the thread issue, then list me some concrete arguments & examples about what you think \'hardcore gaming\' IS and WAS about, and how you see it in present & future days.
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Yeah..but no one cares what you think, Knotter(SLING).
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why bother to post in my thread, then ?
You\'re just as irrelevant as anyone of us Jumpman. Face it.
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I post in threads for my own amusement and sometimes to grace y\'all with the presence of greatness.
You\'re just as irrelevant as anyone of us Jumpman. Face it.
Yeah but look at my sexy avatar.
What a bad ass.
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ah, ...ok
but if you possess such Greatness... could you then please help for the sake of all Hardcore Gamers ? Pleaaase ?
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I always thought of the hardcore gamer as the guy who researches his games beforehand(educated...not in the works of fiction like Unicron), waits for the reviews, gets all the systems worth getting(sorry but if you own a Neo-Geo that doesn\'t make you hardcore), etc.
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yeah, those are some good points :thumb:
however, quantity isn\'t always a great means of \'measurement\'. Having played a wide variety of games is, yes. Or...can it be.
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Yeah the hardcore gamer should have the knack for being like, "hey Frogger 360, that game will definitely suck".
Eye of the gamer.
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I always thought of the hardcore gamer as the guy who researches his games beforehand
Hey thats me. I am so flattered
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I always thought of the hardcore gamer as the guy who researches his games beforehand, waits for the reviews, gets all the systems worth getting(sorry but if you own a Neo-Geo that doesn\'t make you hardcore), etc.
Thank you I am so flattered
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I always thought of the hardcore gamer as the guy who researches his games beforehand
I am so flattered
But its clear that you have no idea. Games like FIFA and NFS often get good scores in reviews. Is that enough to make you buy them?
(hell DMC2 got a 7 in many reviews. I d give it a 2)
Also having all popular/succesful consoles doesnt make you a hardcore gamer either
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the hardcore games can be summed up in one word...NERD! :nerd:...:D j/k..i believe the tru HC gamer is a person who has all of the old and current game systems. when i mean old i mean vector and atari 2600 systems...me personally i can appreciate how far gaming has come,..anybody remember atari 2600 football?..:p...games are commercialized throughly today, but they are also have alot more depth than any of the older games from yesteryear...we are so used to the technology that\'s out today, but those of us that grew up in the atari and intellivision age can really appreciate what we are getting from game systems today...if you sit back and reflect for a moment,...it really is phenomenal what they are putting out today...of course there will always be garbage games out there, but overall it really is amazing what they are doing with the technology....
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"3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamerslike MGS2 for the same reasons"
"2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen."
"You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games
You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore."
"You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks"
"9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2"
Even worse for you, you are the very essence of the mass consumer trying to get the credibility of a hardcore gamer
And most importantly learn to respect others people\'s likings and listen to what th
Huh?
That is the single worst post EVER.
You pull shit out of your ass, I swear. I never said the "hardcore" gamer couldn\'t enjoy MGS2 - but I did say it was a crap game. Get over it.
You know, I expect stupid posts, even idiotic posts from you, but this is reaching an all time low on the dumb scale.
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Huh?
That is the single worst post EVER.
You pull shit out of your ass, I swear. I never said the "hardcore" gamer couldn\'t enjoy MGS2 - but I did say it was a crap game. Get over it.
You know, I expect stupid posts, even idiotic posts from you, but this is reaching an all time low on the dumb scale.
Yeah WAS. The UGLIEST. Not the worst
You read mm\'s, and eiksirf\'s comments that were posted when my post was a mess of colors and quotes and decided to copliment them. What a great opportunity to lick some ass and bash me :laughing:
Dont tell me I pull shit out of my ass.
Although you posted stupid remarks like you always do
So hardcore gamers that love and praise Kojima\'s work on the MGS series actually praise a crap game?
You tend to throw all MGS fans into the same basket with the label "gamers that play MGS because its popular" attcached on it.
You are the one that should get over it that there are many hardcore gamers praising and enjoying MGS, and appreciating it for the reasons I mentioned earlier(including the plot), the reasons you dont have the ability to understand, the reasons you bash but you tend to think that anyone who appreciates these reasons are "brainwashed" casual gamers.
Its simple. Its your own personal comprehension, your own personal taste, your own personal understanding doesnt match with the game.
But you never respect anyone that likes something you dont, or doesnt like something you do, often throwing them all in the basket of the "mass consumer that doesnt know whats good" even if you are the one that is wrong.
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ecided to copliment them. What a great opportunity to lick some ass and bash me
Huh?
I\'m already a mod - what would I "lick some ass" for?
You\'re a fool who can\'t understand simple logic and who doesn\'t get the hint - everyone makes fun of your idiotic posts around here. Why is that? Because, you\'re an idiot.
Simple enough.
End of discussion.
I\'d close the thread - but it does have some valid points, just none that you posted.
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Is the name calling & ego bashing still going on ?
C\'mon, you guys could and should do better than that.
The thread topic is in light of the Gamespy article to discuss
wether hardcore gamers still matter or not.
Firstly, one\'s definition of \'hardcore gamer\' obviously differs
quite a bit amongst everybody here. So, what have we got here ?
- I listed some examples and game examples
- Jumpman finally listed some of his arguments about
what he says what makes a \'hardcore gamer\'
- Clips stated some arguments about that as well,
plus some of his thoughts about the state of gaming in
general
- Unicron listed his arguments about the topic & his arguments of defense for
MGS2 & it\'s fans.
- Evi & Paul just confined their arguments to the mini discussion
about one of my examples ; MGS2 & it\'s fans.
- MM & Eiksirf posted virtually nil
LIC (Eiksirf & MM) ... putting it mildly, you only posted by means of elimination ;
trashing some examples here and there and bashing the fans of these
games. Nothing but bad karma.
So then, why not contribute in a positive manner for a change and state your
games and arguments for them ?
Arguments like : what defined the \'hardcore gamer\' of yesterday....and what defines the hardcore gamer of today and tomorrow ? ; what games did they play, what games do they play now and why would those games qualify as hardcore gamer food ? Also, what do you see as hopefull developments in gaming for the future and which not ?
If you can\'t be bothered to think about this and contribute, then don\'t post or refrain from that childish flaming :fighting:
I\'ll post some more examples of what I think are good developments in gaming in general and why they may contribute to keeping gaming from a slump ;
- single player action adventures are not gonna be extinct ; games like ES:Oblivion, Alan Wake, Condemned, Indigo Prophecy etc are imho prime examples as to why online mmorpg\'s are not gonna whipe them from the planet. Hardcore gaming doesn\'t and shouldn\'t confine itself to online mp gaming. A good thing, devs still understand that. Whatever range of games they produce indirectly defines it\'s audience.
- physics in games. Yes, I\'m still reluctant like many others to buy a seperate physics accelator pci card. But, I truly applaud the latest & greatest
physics developments in games. Like any tool, it will be used by many ; some will handle it poorly others will create Great achievements with it.
This stands or falls with computational power. There needs to be at least x amount of power & efficiency to make it shine within a game. Personally I think PS3 is gonna be an opporunity for this sake ; some devs will fail, others
might excell. Using physics to expand depth of gameplay is crucial.
Nintendo\'s Rev could establish a same sort of action-reaction interactivity with it\'s human interface. Hopefully, devs will work efficiently enough to make physics and Rev control work hand in hand. Only interface renewal is imho not enough to innovate. A bit too superficial as building blocks of future \'hardcore\' gaming.
So,I think physics might pave the way for games which cater to both main stream and hardcore gamers ; If devs implement physics play in such a way that it\'s depth is \'scalable\'.
Fortunately, E3 is not far off anymore. Then we will know more.
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MGS2 is pretty weak as a pure game. As an interactive movie, it gains credibility.
Stealth-cutscene-stealth-cutscene-weak boss battle-longass cutscene-stealth-longass confusing cutscene-20 minute codec cutscene-easy stealth-unintuitive boss battle-cutscene-cutscene-cutscene-stealth-heavy handed cutscene.
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I am so flattered
But its clear that you have no idea. Games like FIFA and NFS often get good scores in reviews. Is that enough to make you buy them?
(hell DMC2 got a 7 in many reviews. I d give it a 2)
Also having all popular/succesful consoles doesnt make you a hardcore gamer either
Yes, I never said being a hardcore gaming was simply watching the reviews, I also mentioned other characteristics which you conveniently chose to ignore.
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Yes, I never said being a hardcore gaming was simply watching the reviews, I also mentioned other characteristics which you conveniently chose to ignore.
Yeah that also contribute to hype before game\'s release.
Huh?
I\'m already a mod - what would I "lick some ass" for?
You\'re a fool who can\'t understand simple logic and who doesn\'t get the hint - everyone makes fun of your idiotic posts around here. Why is that? Because, you\'re an idiot.
Simple enough.
End of discussion.
I\'d close the thread - but it does have some valid points, just none that you posted.
You lick ass to show off and gain some credit from others.
I am the idiot yet you are the one that cant answer a simple question?
Hell you are using the lowest shalowest IQ logic possible yet you are judging me and anyone who doesnt have the same opinion as yours. You are the only one that used "names". Talk about maturity. Not to mention the PMs you ve sent me.
If you were in another forum you wouldnt have been a mod, you d be banned thats for sure.
I asked it before and I ll ask it again
Are there hardcore gamers that love and praise the MGS series for the reasons you cant accept?
You stated earlier MGS is a crap game. What are you trying to suggest? That just because you personally dont like it its a crap game? That hardcore gamers that praise it are actually praising a crap game? Get a clue and learn to respect others even if they dont agree with you. They are often more intelligent than you.
Is the name calling & ego bashing still going on ?
C\'mon, you guys could and should do better than that.
The thread topic is in light of the Gamespy article to discuss
wether hardcore gamers still matter or not.
Firstly, one\'s definition of \'hardcore gamer\' obviously differs
quite a bit amongst everybody here. So, what have we got here ?
- I listed some examples and game examples
- Jumpman finally listed some of his arguments about
what he says what makes a \'hardcore gamer\'
- Clips stated some arguments about that as well,
plus some of his thoughts about the state of gaming in
general
- Unicron listed his arguments about the topic & his arguments of defense for
MGS2 & it\'s fans.
- Evi & Paul just confined their arguments to the mini discussion
about one of my examples ; MGS2 & it\'s fans.
- MM & Eiksirf posted virtually nil
LIC (Eiksirf & MM) ... putting it mildly, you only posted by means of elimination ;
trashing some examples here and there and bashing the fans of these
games. Nothing but bad karma.
So then, why not contribute in a positive manner for a change and state your
games and arguments for them ?
Arguments like : what defined the \'hardcore gamer\' of yesterday....and what defines the hardcore gamer of today and tomorrow ? ; what games did they play, what games do they play now and why would those games qualify as hardcore gamer food ? Also, what do you see as hopefull developments in gaming for the future and which not ?
If you can\'t be bothered to think about this and contribute, then don\'t post or refrain from that childish flaming :fighting:
I\'ll post some more examples of what I think are good developments in gaming in general and why they may contribute to keeping gaming from a slump ;
- single player action adventures are not gonna be extinct ; games like ES:Oblivion, Alan Wake, Condemned, Indigo Prophecy etc are imho prime examples as to why online mmorpg\'s are not gonna whipe them from the planet. Hardcore gaming doesn\'t and shouldn\'t confine itself to online mp gaming. A good thing, devs still understand that. Whatever range of games they produce indirectly defines it\'s audience.
- physics in games. Yes, I\'m still reluctant like many others to buy a seperate physics accelator pci card. But, I truly applaud the latest & greatest
physics developments in games. Like any tool, it will be used by many ; some will handle it poorly others will create Great achievements with it.
This stands or falls with computational power. There needs to be at least x amount of power & efficiency to make it shine within a game. Personally I think PS3 is gonna be an opporunity for this sake ; some devs will fail, others
might excell. Using physics to expand depth of gameplay is crucial.
Nintendo\'s Rev could establish a same sort of action-reaction interactivity with it\'s human interface. Hopefully, devs will work efficiently enough to make physics and Rev control work hand in hand. Only interface renewal is imho not enough to innovate. A bit too superficial as building blocks of future \'hardcore\' gaming.
So,I think physics might pave the way for games which cater to both main stream and hardcore gamers ; If devs implement physics play in such a way that it\'s depth is \'scalable\'.
Fortunately, E3 is not far off anymore. Then we will know more.
Best post in this thread. Unlike some others this is probably the only objective post
edit: Something about what you said. It seems that although physics and other elements can be used to enhance gameplay and make gaming more immersing there are a few concerns I ve heard from many developers.
Although technology offers the chance to developers to add things they couldnt before, they are also limited by other factors. Visual detail often forces the developer to spend too much time and money to things that dont have necessarily to do with gameplay.
For example, they should spend hours on facial expressions, hours on animation to extreme detail (take Tekken for example. When a character graps another character his hands arent actually touching/ holding the other one), on physics etc because the more realistic graphics get the more out of place visual flaws will look.
Fortunately or unfortunately as I said in my first post in this thread few big developers have the time and money to spend for all aspects(graphics and gameplay).to perfect their offerings
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Since you name dropped me, I\'ll add that because I think the term "hardcore gamer" is meaningless, I have been unable to add to this conversation at any juncture.
Good games are what sell. Or, games that are marketed to be perceived as good games.
That and, likely, budget games (also marketed as good games, see: Greatest Hits, Platinum, Player\'s Choice).
Marketing and demographics matter. Spending patterns matter.
Hardcore or not, you can\'t generalize where the dollar goes. If a hardcore gamer buys Madden, then he matters. If he sits at home playing Atari, he doesn\'t.
The dollar matters.
Companies who are creative for the sake of preserving the art, are really just being creative for the sake of making money off people who buy into that kind of thing.
-Dan
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:thumb: Good post, Eiksirf.
I listed every poster in this thread to make an objective analysis of the overheated discussion as best as i could.
The negative \'waves\' were really non beneficial to the thread so i \'ll
weed them out.
You make a good point ; in many ways i agree, that the term \'hardcore gamer\' or \'hardcore gaming\' is vaporous or non descript.
In fact, the Gamespy interview with the marketing dude maybe hints at what his strategy is ; to use the term \'hardcore gamer\' in whatever way is profitable to him.
Publishers might say to devs ; "ow sorry, we\'re not gonna publish your game becuz it only caters to \'hardcore gamers\', not to our mass sales \'mainstream customers\'.
Of course, when the game hits the store you might even see the word \'hardcore\' on the box of that same game. Ironic eh ?
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Since you name dropped me, I\'ll add that because I think the term "hardcore gamer" is meaningless, I have been unable to add to this conversation at any juncture.
Good games are what sell. Or, games that are marketed to be perceived as good games.
That and, likely, budget games (also marketed as good games, see: Greatest Hits, Platinum, Player\'s Choice).
Marketing and demographics matter. Spending patterns matter.
Hardcore or not, you can\'t generalize where the dollar goes. If a hardcore gamer buys Madden, then he matters. If he sits at home playing Atari, he doesn\'t.
The dollar matters.
Companies who are creative for the sake of preserving the art, are really just being creative for the sake of making money off people who buy into that kind of thing.
-Dan
Brilliant post.
I do have a slight problem with the logic, well not really the logic, but how "hardcore" can be defined.
I would consider someone "hardcore" when they go out of their way to own obsecure games, import games and things like that. That takes them above the "casual" gamer who only buys what is at his local Ebgames.
-
Since you name dropped me, I\'ll add that because I think the term "hardcore gamer" is meaningless, I have been unable to add to this conversation at any juncture.
Good games are what sell. Or, games that are marketed to be perceived as good games.
That and, likely, budget games (also marketed as good games, see: Greatest Hits, Platinum, Player\'s Choice).
Marketing and demographics matter. Spending patterns matter.
Hardcore or not, you can\'t generalize where the dollar goes. If a hardcore gamer buys Madden, then he matters. If he sits at home playing Atari, he doesn\'t.
The dollar matters.
Companies who are creative for the sake of preserving the art, are really just being creative for the sake of making money off people who buy into that kind of thing.
-Dan
Great points. Though I d split the companies in two categories.
One being the ones that truelly want to be creative but are forced not to be or choose to be only when they can profit so they wont get banktrupt
Second being the ones that dont care but sometimes they get creative just because they see potential to profit.
Strange that a certain someone agrees with your points though, since previously he stated a few contradicting opinions :rolleyes:
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Ok, so we are making some progress in defining what WE think are
good parameters as to determine wether someone is a hardcore gamer
or not.
Until now the we only specified the following :
- hardcore gamer
- casual / mainstream gamer
Certainly for the moment, I am not gonna say either one is playing better games or which one has a \'better understanding\' what good games should be.
Becuz I still say there\'s more differentiation. Gamers who just play one game excessively much or gamers who game not that often but who take them as inspiration/muse into their work of field/hobby, beyond the activity of gaming itself.
In other ways it might be easier to see which ppl have gaming close to their heart. Observe any group conversation and spot the ppl who can talk on and on about games and the ones who quickly revert to other media without linking that to games.
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Becuz I still say there\'s more differentiation. Gamers who just play one game excessively much or gamers who game not that often but who take them as inspiration/muse into their work of field/hobby, beyond the activity of gaming itself.
:thumb: