PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Riku on May 22, 2006, 11:37:13 AM
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old article. I had actually forgotten about it, but I figure this is a good time to resurrect it given all the cries that DVD\'s aren\'t good enough for this generation.
Microsoft\'s Perceived Mistake:
Since the Xbox 360 uses the same DVD9 media format as the original Xbox, Microsoft has been accused by some of being left behind.
Without the additional storage capacity of new formats like HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs, some gamers have been concerned that game developers will have troubles making next generation games on the Xbox 360.
Even if the first generation of 360 games are able to fit on the DVD9 format, people argue, there is little room for games to grow over time.
But is DVD9 really too small?
The debate about Microsoft\'s decision to stick with DVD9 is commonly seen on public forums, but often without much data to support either side. Before you can intelligently decide if you think the DVD9 format is inadequate for the Xbox 360\'s purpose, you have to know some less-than-common information. How big are Xbox 360 games, for example? How much will the average Xbox 360 game\'s filesize grow over the course of the system\'s life-cycle? Did the original Xbox ever really make use of the storage format, or is there additional room for expansion?
Without knowing the answer to these questions, an intelligent debate on the subject is nearly impossible.
We Attempt to Answer:
We find that there is often a misconception about how big an Xbox 360 or Xbox title really is. For example, people often assume that Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has a large filesize since it contains an extremely large gaming environment. However, Morrowind is actually one of the smallest games on the Xbox, only 900 megabytes big.
In this article, we attempt to provide some concrete numbers to educate the debate between Microsoft\'s use of the DVD9 and HDDVD formats, and Sony\'s use of Blu-ray discs.
We take a look at the known sizes of first-generation Xbox 360 titles, and how much space they actually use on the DVD9 format. Then, by averaging the year-over-year filesize of the original Xbox\'s games released in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005, we figure out exactly how much Xbox titles have grown over the course of the console\'s life-cycle.
Assuming trends hold true, we then make an educated guess at whether or not the DVD9 format is really in danger of being restricting, or whether or not the entire debate is a bit of a red herring.
The Red Herring of Disc Worries:
When rumors surfaced a few months back that one of the upcoming Xbox 360 titles encompassed four 8.5 gigabyte discs while in development, people speculated that it was Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. The Elder Scrolls series has become famous for its massive gaming environments.
We now know that Oblivion will fit on one disc. This isn\'t surprising, since Oblivion makes use of one of the technologies that Microsoft emphasizes on the Xbox 360 called Procedural Synthesis, which we discuss later.
More significantly, it started making gamers worry. What would be cut from the game to make it fit on a cost-saving single disc?
They Grow a Little, They Shrink a Little:
Take a look at this side-by-side screenshot comparison of Azurik, a first generation Xbox title, and Far Cry, which released in 2005. Games obviously become more complex. Gamers often look at these comparisons and assume that as games improve, they naturally grow in file size.
Except that\'s not absolutely true. As programmers get better at developing games, they figure out how to do more with less resources. Compression routines improve over time, and multimedia formats become smaller (such as the development of the mp3 and DivX formats).
In fact, while Far Cry is substantially better than Azurik in terms of graphics, A.I., and gameplay, it\'s only about 500 megabytes larger in file size. In terms of the DVD9 disc, 500 megabytes only claims an additional 6% of the medium\'s storage capacity.
That\'s hardly the overwhelming growth people seem to anticipate.
Far Cry is not the only title to see this sort of limited growth. In fact, as programmers optimize code, it\'s not uncommon for programs to shrink. The original MechAssualt was 3.42 gigabytes, but MechAssualt 2 was only 2.29, a nearly 33% reduction in size. Yet MechAssualt II is considered a better looking game. Grand Theft Auto III is a paltry 733 megabytes, compared to Grand Theft Auto Vice City\'s still paltry 1.2 gigs. Silent Hill 2 clocked in at 4.88 gigs. It\'s sequel, Silent Hill 4, is only 3.16 gigabytes.
In the case of Silent Hill, the original game is 53% larger than its equally complex sequel, which runs contrary to the idea that games will grow larger over time.
The first Prince of Persia occupied 2.44 gigs, the second 2.88, an increase of only 18%. Knights of the Old Republic went from 3.65 gigs in the first installment to 3.99 gigs in the second, a 9% increase. The Splinter Cell series went from 3.71 gigs in the first to 3.05 gigs in Pandora\'s Tomorrow, a reduction of 18% (though it should be noted that Chaos Theory, after switching development houses, ballooned into one of the largest games on the Xbox at 5.62 gigabytes).
So the assumption that games, by their nature, grow in size as they evolve is not absolutely true. They do become more complex, but not necessarily at the expense of filesize.
cont...
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Figuring Out Average Xbox Growth, Year-Over-Year:
We have no real way of predicting how much Xbox 360 titles will grow over time, but we do know how fast Xbox titles grew. If Xbox 360 titles increase in size at a similar rate, we can make some educated guesses about how restricting DVD9s will become.
We began by averaging the filesizes of the top rated 50 to 100 games released for the Xbox in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2005.
After determining a rate of growth, we can then apply those numbers to the Xbox 360 launch titles, and see if Microsoft\'s DVDs can really hold the data they\'re going to have to.
How Big are the Xbox 360 Launch Titles?:
To start, we need to know how big the Xbox 360 launch titles are. How much space are early games taking up, and how much room do they have to grow?
A few weeks ago, the Xbox 360 modding community figured out a way to pull raw data dumps from the Xbox 360 discs, giving the scene access to their raw sizes. Unfortunately, we don\'t have the data for every game in the launch line-up; in fact, we only have the data from 4, which is hardly statistically representative. Still, we work with what we have.
These are the sizes that we know:
Condemned: 3.9 GB
Madden 06 NFL: 3.3 GB
Dead or Alive 4: 5 GB
NBA 06: 4.5 GB
Average: 4.18 GB or 49% of the DVD9 capacity.
Based on these four numbers, the starting Xbox 360 titles appear to be occupying about half of a DVD9. Therefore, if their expected growth is more than double their size, an increase of 100%, then the DVD9 format is obviously inadequate.
The Size Growth of the Xbox:
Much more information is available about the sizes of games on the original Xbox. We were able to determine the sizes of all 34 titles launched with the system in 2001, most of the sizes for the top 80 games - according to GameRankings.com - released in 2002 and 2003, respectively, and about half the top games released in 2005.
To start with, the original Xbox also uses DVD9s to store data, just like the Xbox 360. It\'s important to note not only the size of the games, but the percentage of space taken up by the average title.
What you find is this:
Average for 2001: 1.81 gigs (21% of disc)
Average for 2002: 2.17 gigs (25% of disc)
Average for 2003: 2.47 gigs (29% of disc)
Average for 2005: 3.20 gigs (37% of disc)
Total size increase between 2001 and 2005 was: 77%
Click here to see this in chart form.
The largest known U.S. released Xbox game on our list was RalliSport Challenge 2 (released in May of 2004) at 6.19 gigs, and used 72% of the Xbox DVD9 capacity. On the list of games released for the Xbox that we were able to identify sizes for, only 26 out of over nearly 800 games used more than half of the DVD9 capacity. That\'s about 3% of Xbox titles.
Will the DVD9 Be Enough For the Xbox 360?:
Over the course of its life, the size of the average Xbox title increased by 77%. If the Xbox 360 size increases at the same rate, and the four 360 titles are representative of the whole, we can expect the average Xbox 360 title in 4 or 5 years to be around 7.40 gigs, and to occupy about 87% of the disc\'s capacity. If the largest game deviation is the same as the Xbox, with the largest game being 3 gigabytes larger than the 2005 average, then games will be exceeding the upper limit of what the medium is capable of.
However, if the proportions hold true between systems, such limitations will only effect about 3% of games made for the Xbox 360. Additionally, we\'d guess that if you look at those 26 titles that exceed average size on the Xbox, you\'d find that size is not an indicator of quality, either in graphical quality or storyline. No one would accuse Doom 3 of being worse looking than Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines, but it\'s almost 3 gigabytes smaller (Terminator 3: 5.67 gigs; Doom 3: 2.957 gigs). Half-life 2, for example, is only 2 gigabytes.
Large games may simply be the result of poorly optimized programming, not an indication that they couldn\'t be smaller if they had to be, and still deliver the same experience.
Logical Errors in High Definition:
One reason that people worry about the Xbox 360\'s ballooning game size is the transition to high definition graphics. People argue that since HD requires much higher resolutions, games could not possibly exist without an 8x increase in size (the 8x is based on fairly logical assumptions). There is a really easy way to dispute this. NBA 2K6, King Kong, and NHL 2K6 are all games that exist on the Xbox and Xbox 360. The only difference between the two systems is that the Xbox 360 is in high definition and with completely reworked graphics. If such a change to HD graphics really required at least 8 times more space, none of these games would be able to ship on a single Xbox 360 disc.
All of them, of course, do. Sometimes, it\'s easy to get caught up in the extreme, but it rarely follows through as badly as people might predict.
Other Elements That Play in Microsoft\'s Favor:
There are two other elements that make it difficult to predict how fast game sizes will increase, and they both play in Microsoft\'s favor. XNA and Procedural Synthesis.
XNA:
XNA is a development tool that Microsoft introduced in 2004. XNA helps developers build games more quickly and more efficiently. XNA represents a refinement of everything that has been learned developing for the Xbox, which has an architecture that is very similar to the Xbox 360. As a new development tool, it represents a change in the way that game developers might program, and how it impacts on filesize is an unknown factor.
Editor\'s Note: After the initial publication of this article, we received an e-mail from Brian Keller, a Microsoft Product Manager who works on the XNA development tools. He\'s written an excellent and detailed post about how the XNA development tools influence final game sizes. We encourage you to read the detailed explanation of how this works, but generally speaking Brian confirms that XNA really does seem to help reduce the number of unused assets that float around during development, cluttering things up and ultimately leading to bloated programs. One example he uses is MechCommander 2, which it turns out shipped with an astonishing 40% of its textures never used during the final build of the game. XNA helps to limit this sort of underutilized scattering of textures by providing more efficient managing tools, among other things. If you\'re interested in this sort of discussion, his post is worth reading.
Procedural Synthesis:
Procedural synthesis is has a great deal of potential to effect the Xbox 360\'s filesizes. In short, procedural synthesis is a way of producing graphics that Microsoft has pushed heavily with the introduction of the Xbox 360, including specific hardware functions designed to do handle procedural synthesis. It uses algorithms to produce high quality graphics out of extremely small files. For the best example of what procedural synthesis can do, check out .kkrieger, which means Warrior in German. This first person shooter is built almost entirely from procedural graphics, and as a consequence occupies about 96 Kilobytes of space. Yes, the game responsible for this screenshot here, here, and here could fit almost 14 copies on an old-fashioned 1.4 megabyte floppy disk.
You can download a beta version of this game from the developer\'s website here, but be warned that it\'s fairly buggy, and meant more as a technology demonstration than anything else.
Procedural synthesis is the reason that Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion has such brilliant forests. Oblivion makes use of a technology called SpeedTree, a middleware product for procedurally generating forests and foliage. You can see other examples of their software in screenshots here, here, and here.
Final Conclusions:
Much debate has gone into whether or not the DVD9 format is too small for next generation titles. Looking over the data, it\'s fairly evident that in fact DVD9 is not too small for next generation games as much as it was too big for the last generation\'s. Very few games on the original Xbox came close to pushing the limits of the DVD9 format, leaving plenty of room for growth for the Xbox 360.
Undoubtedly, games will grow. However, technology designed to keep them small and compact will grow as well. In many ways, the debate over Microsoft\'s handling of the DVD9 and HDDVD formats is simply a matter of a red herring. People see it and worry about it, but there is little data to suggest there will actually be a problem with it.
The PS3 will be able to store more data with their blu-ray discs, but that won\'t necessarily mean that they\'ll be any less limited in their creativity. It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.
http://www.gamesfirst.com/index.php?id=1132
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dvd\'s were enough for 12/2005
what about 2 years from now when millions and millions of 1080P sets are in homes?
i believe it\'s called "foresight"
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dvd\'s were enough for 12/2005
what about 2 years from now when millions and millions of 1080P sets are in homes?
i believe it\'s called "foresight"
Xbox 360 can\'t even output 1080p. 720p is standard hi-def and will be fine for this generation. Besides that...
One reason that people worry about the Xbox 360\'s ballooning game size is the transition to high definition graphics. People argue that since HD requires much higher resolutions, games could not possibly exist without an 8x increase in size (the 8x is based on fairly logical assumptions). There is a really easy way to dispute this. NBA 2K6, King Kong, and NHL 2K6 are all games that exist on the Xbox and Xbox 360. The only difference between the two systems is that the Xbox 360 is in high definition and with completely reworked graphics. If such a change to HD graphics really required at least 8 times more space, none of these games would be able to ship on a single Xbox 360 disc.
All of them, of course, do. Sometimes, it\'s easy to get caught up in the extreme, but it rarely follows through as badly as people might predict.
read the article, thanks.
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ummmmm, do i need to further describe "foresight"
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ummmmm, do i need to further describe "foresight"
what\'s the matter with 720p and 1080i games?
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Foresight can also bite you in the ass when things don\'t get according to plan and you\'ve spent a ton of money on something not being embraced what was expected.
There was NOTHING wrong with this medium, we all know why Sony went with the Blu-Ray format, well, the two reasons. The main being, to win the video format war and the second being harder to pirate.
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and the second being harder to pirate.
you think devs/studios aren\'t chomping at the bit for this?
xbox 360 is "almost" hacked to as not even need physical modding
hello dreamcast?
what\'s the matter with 720p and 1080i games?
tell that to someone with a 1080P set (whose number grows daily, let alone 2-3 years from now)
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you think devs/studios aren\'t chomping at the bit for this?
xbox 360 is "almost" hacked to as not even need physical modding
hello dreamcast?
I know this. Given the PS3 does take off and Blu-Ray becomes a standard format, then the same will happen with that format. It\'s the circle of life.
;)
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true, but a company claiming "our console is uncrackable" 6 months before launch, and another saying "our console was supposed to be uncrackable" 6 months after launch are two completely different animals.
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to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p you need at least a 50+ inch tv when sitting a reasonable distance from the tv. Sony\'s just blowing this up, selling it to all their sheep.
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think sony is the only 1080P TV manufacturer?
come on now, lol
and if you\'re going to use my word, please give me credit, thanks
:P
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I\'m just downplaying its importance because...it\'s not important.
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to you?
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Good points & arguments for the Xbox360\'s format.
However, in the worst case scenario regarding Blu Ray ; that will certainly not be nowhere near a negative effect to the PS3 console as the cartridge format to N64.
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I\'m just downplaying its importance because...it\'s not important.
to you?
What mm said...
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seriously, go watch a hi-def clip on a 720p output and then on a 1080p output television. The difference is minimal until you get to the 50+ inch screens.
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I know this. Given the PS3 does take off and Blu-Ray becomes a standard format, then the same will happen with that format. It\'s the circle of life.
;)
True that. DVD won\'t be around in a few years and like 10-15 years from now (if that long) a new video format will replace Blu-Ray. Oh how technology blooms, lol.
To be honest, I\'m still amazed disks are still around. I would have thought that some revolutionary thing would come out that would have the hi-def of a DVD/Blu-Ray or better, half the size and be like a chip or small disk like thing. I dunno, hard to describe, lol.
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Actually, I\'ve read several analysts views that DVD will see healthy growth all the way through 2009.
People are not going to up and abandon DVD in the next few years. Not when it was just in 2003 or 2004 when DVD sales FINALLY overtook VHS sales.
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I\'m going to have to side with Rikku & LIC on this one.
Why would 1080p neccessitate more storage space? FMV? Mpeg-4 and VC-1 can take care of that as long as it\'s not a full-length 2 hour movie.
That said, I am GLAD that Sony is making their system a big step up from its previous system as it has Blu-Ray playback standard (among other things). You can argue that the Xbox will have an HD-DVD add-on and I\'ll come right back with the lack of studio support. :fighting:
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Although many claim a higher storage medium is not needed and I agree for now I believe it will be in about 2 or 3 years from now. It was always the case in each generation that a higher storage had to replace the old. The difference between now and then is that it will take more time until developers will feel like they will need more storage.
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I guess sony is looking for a long term goal with ps3. They expect the ps3 to last as long as 10 years, and including blu ray will help the life span.
Beside lenghty FMV, you can include Dolby TrueHD surround sound audio tracks on the High Def video, even though vc-1 and mpeg-4 are much better compressor, but using higher bitrate for 1080p fmv should yield better picture. And the extra space on blu ray, imagine playing videogames that have behind the scenes on the blu ray, trailers or ads, and interview with the developers all on one disc and other features. So the extra space won\'t hurt either.
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Actually, I\'ve read several analysts views that DVD will see healthy growth all the way through 2009.
People are not going to up and abandon DVD in the next few years. Not when it was just in 2003 or 2004 when DVD sales FINALLY overtook VHS sales.
Two things:
1) 2009 is not that far away (i.e. a FEW YEARS), like I said :) No doubt they will be around for a while but they will be phased out like DVD and VHS in the next few years
2) Really that DVD JUST overtook VHS? I thought that happened a couple years ago. VHS wasn\'t that good. You have a link about this? I know once I got a DVD player, that was the end of VHS. Never went back.
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People are not going to up and abandon DVD in the next few years. Not when it was just in 2003 or 2004 when DVD sales FINALLY overtook VHS sales.
I\'m not doubting you, but do you have a source for this information?
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Gotta love wikipedia...
The week of 15 June 2003 marked the first time the DVD format (which was created in the early 1990s) became more popular than VHS. Although still popular with home recording, the VHS tape has largely been replaced by the DVD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS
millions of people had vcr\'s and, even given the undeniable benefits of dvd\'s, were still buying/renting more vhs tapes some 7 years after DVD hit the market.
DVD had some very obvious benefits: scene selection, no rewinding, sharper picture and sound, more capacity to fit hours of film, and extras. Not to mention that you could enjoy all this with your standard SDTV. It was still a slow upgrade...but somehow some of you think that people are all of a sudden going to go gaga over a better picture and sound only? Nevermind they have to buy a HDTV to enjoy it.
DVD\'s are going to be around a for quite a while, imo.
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Yeah, but HDTV purchases are most certainly on the rise. You can get a decent HDTV for relatively cheap these days.
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Gotta love wikipedia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS
millions of people had vcr\'s and, even given the undeniable benefits of dvd\'s, were still buying/renting more vhs tapes some 7 years after DVD hit the market.
DVD had some very obvious benefits: scene selection, no rewinding, sharper picture and sound, more capacity to fit hours of film, and extras. Not to mention that you could enjoy all this with your standard SDTV. It was still a slow upgrade...but somehow some of you think that people are all of a sudden going to go gaga over a better picture and sound only? Nevermind they have to buy a HDTV to enjoy it.
DVD\'s are going to be around a for quite a while, imo.
Hate to say it but 2003 was a while ago. Plus it was developed in the early 90s but it wasn\'t available until when, mid to late 90s, right? Atleast affordable. Hell, CDs were developed in teh 70s but weren\'t popular until the mid to late 80s, right? I could be wrong about the CDs. I just closed my wikipedia window when looking up the word "fuck" for my own amusement and too lazy to open a new one :)
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Yeah, but HDTV purchases are most certainly on the rise. You can get a decent HDTV for relatively cheap these days.
It\'s pretty much all you can buy now. And the mass majority of them are only capable of 720p and 1080i. The 1080p tvs are much more expensive, and as I iterated earlier, the difference is minimal unless you\'re looking for a very large screen.
I think a lot of you are overestimating people\'s willingness to shell out money for new tech. There\'s a reason people latch on to new technology after it hits lower prices. Ever wondered why Sony\'s Playstation sales took off AFTER they hit $199? Wonder why it took so long for DVD\'s to take over VHS? It took years for DVD players to become as cheap as VHS players.
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Hate to say it but 2003 was a while ago. Plus it was developed in the early 90s but it wasn\'t available until when, mid to late 90s, right? Atleast affordable. Hell, CDs were developed in teh 70s but weren\'t popular until the mid to late 80s, right? I could be wrong about the CDs. I just closed my wikipedia window when looking up the word "fuck" for my own amusement and too lazy to open a new one :)
that was right around 3 years ago.
The first DVD players and discs were available in November 1996 in Japan, March 1997 in the United States, 1998 in Europe and in 1999 in Australia. The first pressed DVD was the film Twister in 1996.
1996-2003. 7 years to become more popular than the standard. wow.
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It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.
That last sentence of that article tells me alot about the author. He thinks there is no use of bluray except for allowing developers to be sloppy. What a fool. Does he not understand GT4 and other low res PS2 games were dual-layered meaning they needed more than 5GB of space? What\'s going to happen when PD models 500 1080p cars and 50 1080p tracks? No way games like that will be possible on a dual layered DVD.
The article was not a fair, balanced look at the issue. While it is true that most games won\'t need the extra space of bluray, it will be necessary for games like GT5 among others. To simply say bluray\'s only use is for \'sloppy programming\' is foolish.
edit: 1996-2003. 7 years to become more popular than the standard. wow.
Just under the PS3\'s expected lifespan. Looks like Sony is set
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that was right around 3 years ago
Exactly. 3 years is a long time ago, especially that it became extremely affordable 2002-2003, right?
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It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.
That last sentence of that article tells me alot about the author. He thinks there is no use of bluray except for allowing developers to be sloppy. What a fool. Does he not understand GT4 and other low res PS2 games were dual-layered meaning they needed more than 5GB of space? What\'s going to happen when PD models 500 1080p cars and 50 1080p tracks? No way games like that will be possible on a dual layered DVD.
The article was not a fair, balanced look at the issue. While it is true that most games won\'t need the extra space of bluray, it will be necessary for games like GT5 among others. To simply say bluray\'s only use is for \'sloppy programming\' is foolish.
Compression techniques get better all the time. Who says that GT4 was entirely efficient as far as taking up space?
The article is totally fair, it\'s based on fact. You stating that GT5 will NEED blu-ray is speculation.
edit:
Just under the PS3\'s expected lifespan. Looks like Sony is set
Totally missing some crucial details I\'ve already laid out. DVD had MANY benefits over VHS. Relatively, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray has very few benefits. Nevermind people have to buy a HDTV to enjoy it. I know many people who have perfectly working SDTVs and won\'t buy another TV until they have to.
Trying to get back on topic...the arguement was whether DVD\'s are adequate for this generation of gaming. Where is the proof that it\'s not?
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It\'s pretty much all you can buy now. And the mass majority of them are only capable of 720p and 1080i. The 1080p tvs are much more expensive, and as I iterated earlier, the difference is minimal unless you\'re looking for a very large screen.
I think a lot of you are overestimating people\'s willingness to shell out money for new tech. There\'s a reason people latch on to new technology after it hits lower prices. Ever wondered why Sony\'s Playstation sales took off AFTER they hit $199? Wonder why it took so long for DVD\'s to take over VHS? It took years for DVD players to become as cheap as VHS players.
I don\'t know WTF you\'re going on about. I\'m only talking about HDTV getting into more and more people\'s homes. I\'m not talking about Blu-ray. Only time will tell which format becomes the dominant one and it\'ll be years before we can see the outcome. I\'m just talking about HDTV\'s and you keep going on about higher resolutions and bigger TV\'s. Who gives sh^t? I just bought an upscale DVD player for my plasma screen. I\'m going to wait a while to see which format becomes the popular one. I don\'t want to throw away money.
The article is totally fair, it\'s based on fact.
Your opinions are also tainted with bias.
DVD had MANY benefits over VHS. Relatively, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray has very few benefits.
Right now it\'s more for the hardcore videophiles or those who own an HDTV.
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Exactly. 3 years is a long time ago, especially that it became extremely affordable 2002-2003, right?
not that long ago. You seem to be overlooking the fact that the majority of people were satisfied with the status quo for 7 years AFTER a obviously superior product was available. My point is that DVD is not going anywhere for many years.
What is affordable?
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Your opinions are also tainted with bias.
in your opinion.
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My point is that DVD is not going anywhere for many years.
That may very well be true, but it\'s impossible to predict the future. Don\'t get your panties in a bunch.
in your opinion.
Not really.
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Compression techniques get better all the time. Who says that GT4 was entirely efficient as far as taking up space?
The article is totally fair, it\'s based on fact. You stating that GT5 will NEED blu-ray is speculation.
Compression? I don\'t want anything compressed. That\'s why I bought a true 720p monitor. Not something that will compress or upscale a signal to 1280x720. Having to compress data is a sign that they need more room. And I have no doubts GT5 will need much more than 10GBs. I\'ll be sure to get back with you when it does.
Totally missing some crucial details I\'ve already laid out. DVD had MANY benefits over VHS. Relatively, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray has very few benefits. Nevermind people have to buy a HDTV to enjoy it. I know many people who have perfectly working SDTVs and won\'t buy another TV until they have to.
Trying to get back on topic...the arguement was whether DVD\'s are adequate for this generation of gaming. Where is the proof that it\'s not?
Check out the stores, SDTV\'s are being pushed to the back and HDTVs and flat panels are now up front. In 7 years I doubt SDTVs will take up 10% of store space.
Sure, most games won\'t need the extra space. But it IS NOT adequate for all the developers. Some have already griped about the xbox DVD situation. Sure, they can fit their games on the DVD if they would like to, but going against what the article says, it WILL hold back their creativity. In the end, you will enjoy games just as fine on XBOX 360 as I will on PS3, I will just get more FMV, higher rez etc...oh and High Def movie playback. Thank you very much.
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It might simply give developers more room to be sloppy in their programing.
It\'s a probability.
Interesting fact: As you know the Xbox had a harddrive. What you may not know is that Microsoft had a policy about loadtime length. It\'s been reported that many developers used the harddrive to "cheat" on the load time. I\'m not of a technical mind so I can\'t go in to detail, but those who are tech savy say it was lazy programming because they could.
With so much room on a blu-ray, developers could afford to be "sloppy." I don\'t know what it matters to the end user though. Nothing I suppose. This article uses it as an arguement for DVD. I don\'t see why he/she shouldn\'t.
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That may very well be true, but it\'s impossible to predict the future. Don\'t get your panties in a bunch.
Not really.
true. but based on the information available, we can make educated guesses.
yeah, it is.
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With so much room on a blu-ray, developers could afford to be "sloppy."
Or it will give them more creativity. You\'re going to get both ends of the bargain.
yeah, it is.
As long as that helps you sleep at night.
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not that long ago. You seem to be overlooking the fact that the majority of people were satisfied with the status quo for 7 years AFTER a obviously superior product was available. My point is that DVD is not going anywhere for many years.
What is affordable?
Obviously DVD is affordable now. Blu-ray is new technology. When DVD came out, it was exactly like blu-ray cost wise. It was mad expensive. In a few years, I bet its gonna be just as cost effective to buy blu-ray as it is DVD. Also, by then there will be more HDTVs that people can take advantage of the blu-ray capability. Its all a cycle. Something better will replace blu-ray in like 12+ years.
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Compression? I don\'t want anything compressed. That\'s why I bought a true 720p monitor. Not something that will compress or upscale a signal to 1280x720. Having to compress data is a sign that they need more room. And I have no doubts GT5 will need much more than 10GBs. I\'ll be sure to get back with you when it does.
Ever hear of lossless compression? You should read up on it.
Check out the stores, SDTV\'s are being pushed to the back and HDTVs and flat panels are now up front. In 7 years I doubt SDTVs will take up 10% of store space.
Sure, most games won\'t need the extra space. But it IS NOT adequate for all the developers. Some have already griped about the xbox DVD situation. Sure, they can fit their games on the DVD if they would like to, but going against what the article says, it WILL hold back their creativity. In the end, you will enjoy games just as fine on XBOX 360 as I will on PS3, I will just get more FMV, higher rez etc...oh and High Def movie playback. Thank you very much.
That\'s not necessary. Again, this is only an arguement that DVD\'s will be fine for this generation of gaming. Some small percentage that MIGHT need multiple DVD\'s isn\'t going to hurt anything or cripple the 360.
I\'ll wait to read from a developer what they did with blu-ray that absolutely could not be done on a regular dvd until I make any assumptions about limited creativity.
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I\'ll wait to read from a developer what they did with blu-ray that absolutely could not be done on a regular dvd until I make any assumptions about limited creativity.
I didn\'t say games being developed for DVD capacities will have limited creativity. I meant that if there is a need for more space, it may allow for more creativity without having to worry about space limitations should the need arise for extra elbow room. And if a game ever comes out that needs multiple DVDs, it could all be on one disc, instead.
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Obviously DVD is affordable now. Blu-ray is new technology. When DVD came out, it was exactly like blu-ray cost wise. It was mad expensive. In a few years, I bet its gonna be just as cost effective to buy blu-ray as it is DVD. Also, by then there will be more HDTVs that people can take advantage of the blu-ray capability. Its all a cycle. Something better will replace blu-ray in like 12+ years.
geez. derailed much. probably my fault. sorry. I just think the blu-ray/hd-dvd adoption will be a slow one because it\'s not that great of a leap forward. I\'m curious to see how long it is until the mass market takes it up.
the thread is whether or not dvd\'s are good enough for this generation. this article says it is, and the only thing to the contrary is some baseless speculation on clowd\'s part.
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I didn\'t say games being developed for DVD capacities will have limited creativity. I meant that if there is a need for more space, it may allow for more creativity without having to worry about limitations should the need arise (the only situation would be a game that exceeds DVD space limits).
it was in response to clowd\'s post.
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My bad then. I do understand the points you\'re making. This is all VERY new. So all we can make, like you said, is educated guesses.
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Ever hear of lossless compression? You should read up on it.
think lossless de-compression is easy?
DVD medium was a mistake for xbox 360, not for consoles coming out late 2006 with a 10 year projected life span.
HD-DVD would have 3million or so units in house and "slowly" improving every day
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think lossless de-compression is easy?
why don\'t you tell me all about it.
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think lossless de-compression is easy?
DVD medium was a mistake for xbox 360, not for consoles coming out late 2006 with a 10 year projected life span.
HD-DVD would have 3million or so units in house and "slowly" improving every day
that means the 360 would have been delayed until late this year. That wouldn\'t work out very well for Microsofts strategy to get out first in order to gain a lead and momentum. Also mind that Microsoft has no vested interest in the well being of either format. Why should they have waited?
When the first multiple DVD game comes out, or the first developer says they can\'t achieve something due to the capacity, then I\'ll take you seriously. As of right now you\'re speculating.
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ask sega about having the "first console out" and "rushing to market"
MS is vested in HD-DVD, read tech news much?
need for more than one DVD?
oblivian?
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ask sega about having the "first console out" and "rushing to market"
MS is vested in HD-DVD, read tech news much?
need for more than one DVD?
oblivian?
Should I also ask them about their bankruptcy while I\'m at it?
Microsoft will not hurt if HD-DVD goes down.
Oblivion is on one dvd as far as I know. They utilized the technique of procedural synthesis that allowed them to make the game and achieve a final disc size not too much larger than the last Morrowind game. You can read about it in the first post of this very thread!
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Microsoft will hurt if Blu-ray goes up
i wonder why almost every dungeon in oblivion all look practically the same
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Microsoft will hurt if Blu-ray goes up
i wonder why almost every dungeons in oblivion all look practically the same
how so?
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sigh, need i explain the practice of business?
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seeing as how Microsoft is not in the business of media formats (physical anyway), yes, you should go ahead and explain.
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what\'s good for sony = bad for competitors
i know it\'s complex and tough to take in all at once.
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what\'s good for sony = bad for competitors
i know it\'s complex and tough to take in all at once.
but it\'s not bad for Microsoft. In fact, J Allard or one of the other higher ups in the Xbox division said they\'ll adopt whatever format wins out for their next system.
So Sony has the potential to make some money with blu-ray. Good for them. It\'s not as if Microsoft doesn\'t make money elsewhere.
how does blu-ray doing well financially impact Microsoft?
What you just said is the equivalent of saying that Vista doing well is bad for Sony. That doesn\'t make any sense seeing as how Sony is not in the business of software.
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Microsoft sank in a lot of money for HD-DVD.
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Microsoft sank in a lot of money for HD-DVD.
o rly? linkify.
I know they announced their support of the format (mosty due to the whole MCC ordeal). If it goes down, Microsoft won\'t even flinch.
Their codec VC-1 is in both HD-DVD and Blu-ray if that\'s what you were getting at.
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Partnership with Toshiba (developer of HD-DVD): http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Microsoft-Toshiba-HD-DVD-Alliance-Changes-Xbox-360-3902.shtml
Microsoft endorsing with Intel: http://news.com.com/Intel,+Microsoft+endorse+HD+DVD/2100-1041_3-5883337.html
From their website: https://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/sep05/09-26HDDVDPromotionGroupPR.mspx
If they are endorsing it and joining Toshiba, its assumed they are putting up some capital for development.
Shitty links though, I know but its 12:30, I\'m sick and tired and really don\'t feel like getting too involved in this stupid arguement.
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My point is that DVD is not going anywhere for many years.
What is affordable?
Nobody tried to convince BR will replace DVD`s when they become available. That doesnt mean it wont exist and sell either until that happens.
Also most of your arguements are surrounding the usage of BR as a movie format only. What about games?
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Sony needs to get Blu-Ray out there to make anything of the format, but at the price for the PS3 or a stand-alone Blu-Ray, they won\'t be getting my money. When the Blu-Ray DVD player is down around $200, I\'ll think about getting one.
Until then, I\'m happy with Netflix and used DVD movies.
Believe it or not, there are consumers who do not throw money away on every high tech gadget that comes down the pike.
It\'s a risk to inflate their PS3 cost with the Blu-Ray, but they\'re looking at it more as a way to move DVD players, not game systems. PS3 = something of a last hope for the overall health of Sony, which is not doing so hot as a company save for that PlayStation thingy.
-Dan
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even thier movie studio division?
:)
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Well, Toshiba got pissed off because Sony chose Nvidia over them in the gpu design collaboration ( since Toshiba was the main force behind the gpu in PS2 and was initially rumoured to be the main party again for PS3\'s gpu engineering)
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titan, you said they invested alot. I don\'t see where they invested so much that they\'ll be hurt if HD-DVD goes wayside.
even thier movie studio division?
:)
yes, even their movie studio division. However, they do VERY well when blockbusters like Spiderman come around.
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A failed DVD add-on will do nothing to Microsoft.
The entire Xbox platform could tank and Microsoft would keep on chugging. Look at its "success" in Japan.
I\'d guess Xbox is something of a long-term experiment to see if Microsoft can get some new revenue streams, like how Apple did with iPod.
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portable mp3 players were an emerging market
microsoft is trying to dominate an already established market, which already crashed once...
i remember buying atari 2600 games for a buck back then
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A failed DVD add-on will do nothing to Microsoft.
The entire Xbox platform could tank and Microsoft would keep on chugging. Look at its "success" in Japan.
I\'d guess Xbox is something of a long-term experiment to see if Microsoft can get some new revenue streams, like how Apple did with iPod.
Yeah, they already committed to a third Xbox.
mm, the videogame market can grow you know.
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it\'s going to crash again
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it\'s going to crash again
lol
you\'re a hoot
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It won\'t crash as long as Nintendo keeps things interesting and affordable. ;]
Sony and Microsoft need to adopt Nintendo\'s money-making, market-growing strategy. Losing money hand over fist has to get old, right?
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for microsoft?
and you\'re (as are millions of older nintendo die-hards) hoping the wii remote gimick idea doesn\'t self-destruct.
it can go from "interesting" to "wtf?" within a few titles
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Guess we\'ll see.
And yea, Microsoft too. Taking losses on hardware was what I was getting at.
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Sony needs to get Blu-Ray out there to make anything of the format, but at the price for the PS3 or a stand-alone Blu-Ray, they won\'t be getting my money. When the Blu-Ray DVD player is down around $200, I\'ll think about getting one.
Until then, I\'m happy with Netflix and used DVD movies.
Believe it or not, there are consumers who do not throw money away on every high tech gadget that comes down the pike.
It\'s a risk to inflate their PS3 cost with the Blu-Ray, but they\'re looking at it more as a way to move DVD players, not game systems. PS3 = something of a last hope for the overall health of Sony, which is not doing so hot as a company save for that PlayStation thingy.
-Dan
This is an interesting post. Oh how so many forget it was the PS2 that made DVD players affordable and as widespread as they are today. A 299 console with DVD playback, could play PSOne games, cd\'s, not to mention all the horsepower of the PS2 to play those games essentially snapped the market in two. Of course there was the nay-sayers who stated a stand-alone DVD player was far better, but for 299, you could get Sony\'s package or a standalone player -- and the price was the SAME. It\'s going to be about the same with blu-ray only a bit more expensive overall, but a standalone player or a PS3 is an easy choice to make if you\'re in the market for one or the other just as it was for DVD.
The only hurdle for Sony will be convincing people that they want or need to upgrade. The change from VHS to DVD was a no-brainer. People always hold on to old technology - there\'s still people today who buy records and 8-track tapes and there\'s no convincing them. It\'ll be up to the early adopters and Sony\'s marketing to make the push worth it because you\'re not just asking people to buy a PS3, you\'re asking them to buy an HDTV with 1080p as well. Worse yet, just as Riku said, the change from DVD to Blu-Ray is significant on paper, but the eye won\'t see that much of a difference except on the receipt.
One final note I wanted to bring up when it comes to making purchases and people complaining about prices though, although I know 599 is steep for many, Sony wants to keep this console out there for a long time, they don\'t want the PS4 to roll out in four years I\'m sure. With that said, if people are willing to blow 1000+ every 2-3 years on PC upgrades/new hardware, people will flock to buy PS3\'s.
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titan, you said they invested alot. I don\'t see where they invested so much that they\'ll be hurt if HD-DVD goes wayside.
I didn\'t mean to say a lot. Bad word choice. I\'m not saying with the failure of HD-DVD is gonna slow them down or bring them under but I bet they will hurt a bit where they could still recover. Its not a big dent in their company but it is some loss.
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I didn\'t mean to say a lot. Bad word choice. I\'m not saying with the failure of HD-DVD is gonna slow them down or bring them under but I bet they will hurt a bit where they could still recover. Its not a big dent in their company but it is some loss.
I\'ve done enough searching and I can\'t find an actual dollar amount that Microsoft has invested in to HD-DVD. The only things I found were the same articles you did, but different sources. Mostly saying they support HD-DVD, making it the standard for Vista, etc.
I don\'t know where I\'m going with this...
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well without reading the 1st four pages i think dvd\'d are fine for this gen..as far as movies are concerned i know i\'m going to have to repurchase a couple of anime movies i bought a few years back since they were on vhs...i don\'t even see vcr players anymore...i don\'t see a need for a major change since dvd\'s display crystal clear imaging and there will never be a lapse in quality unlike vhs...i see dvd\'s bein around for a looong time...
i\'m not much of a tech head so as far as games go, from what i understand anyway,..most games don\'t take up the full dvd anyways, and the only problem that developers have as far as using up that space is time...most are on deadlines to have these games finished by a certain date.... development costs are a huge issue here as well...i\'m sure alot of developers would like to use the whole dvd and implement their games to the fullest,..well all except EA..the master of rehashing....
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yay, EA bashing!
so much fun!
:rolleyes:
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yay, EA bashing!
so much fun!
:rolleyes:
well without takin\' this thing too much off topic, that last remark was more or less directed towards ea\'s madden series, the only game i\'ve enjoyed from them to my knowledge most recently was fight night round 2...what? you a fan of ea or somethin?
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1080i or 1080p. Not gonna see much of a difference.
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1080i or 1080p. Not gonna see much of a difference.
it\'s the difference between hi-def and true hi-def according to Sony.
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o rly?
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o rly?
don\'t tell me you forgot about last E3 when Sony was proclaiming the PS3 as a true next gen system capable of true hi-def (which they define as 1080p).
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it\'s the difference between hi-def and true hi-def according to Sony.
Yeah it\'s better but by how much? I work in video and the differences I see between the different standards 720p etc is not that great and sometimes takes a trained eye to see the difference.
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found the articles. my bad, it was Phil Harrison of Sony who said it...
"As you well know," he continued, "the Xbox 360 doesn\'t play high definition movies and doesn\'t have true HD functionality - PlayStation 3 is the only format that has 1080-progressive, which is the true definition of HD, so it\'s really premature to be talking about the HD era."
Link (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=62137)
funny thing is that only a couple years ago Sony was claiming 720p as true hi-def when they were marketing their TVs.
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Welcome to marketing, try not to get so bent out of shape about it.
NEW AND IMPROVED!
-Dan
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not upset, I just find it funny.
SUPER AND BEST!
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Will anyone try to discuss the possible contribution of BR in gaming except from movies?
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The thing about high definition images is they require a ton of space. So these discs are capable of storing a ton. That\'s the benefit.
Disc space and resolution, that\'s about the gist of it, no?
For gameplay, I can\'t think of any way that high definition imagery could be used to enhance gameplay and even if I could, it would come at the exclusion of those with standard definition sets. (Like surround sound aural cues for people with mono tvs.)
-Dan
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The thing about high definition images is they require a ton of space. So these discs are capable of storing a ton. That\'s the benefit.
Disc space and resolution, that\'s about the gist of it, no?
For gameplay, I can\'t think of any way that high definition imagery could be used to enhance gameplay and even if I could, it would come at the exclusion of those with standard definition sets. (Like surround sound aural cues for people with mono tvs.)
-Dan
Ofcourse the BR disk wont enhance gameplay atleast from what I can tell now. But I am sure games of this next gen generation at some point of time will see bigger storage mediums as necessary.
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Ofcourse
Well, you asked!
;]
-Dan
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I know :p
Its just that everyone discusses only the importance of BR in movies, when there is a huge possibility that their storage will be needed for games. There are games like the Getaway for example that I am sure will need that extra storage.
They have data gathered from London worth of lots and lots of GB. I remember the developers mentioned a huge number although I cant recall the exact one.
Since next gen aims for HD quality, Getaway on the PS3 will use the same data as much as possible. London wont be a blurred mess just like PS2\'s in many occasions.
Also I think games like Gran Turismo might need that space too. I am not expecting more cars than GT4, but I think the same number of cars or even fewer may need much much more space than GT4.
Final Fantasy as well. Square Enix is always aiming to make huge games with each Final Fantasy. There are more dialoques, the game may have bigger and more detailed worlds, and the CGI parts will have to be shown at High Definition.
I remember similar discussion 7 years ago. Many claimed that DVD is useless for games, the DVD feature is only a way of marketing, that CD\'s are enough and as such but at the end even games that didnt have almost at all any CGI surpassed the 1GB mark.
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Yeah it\'s better but by how much? I work in video and the differences I see between the different standards 720p etc is not that great and sometimes takes a trained eye to see the difference.
Not saying I\'m a videophile (just enthusiast), but I can definitely tell 720p from 1080i/p.
1080i vs. p is noticable when the content is moving, and it really bugs me. I hope 1080i is the LAST resolution that will ever be interlaced. It\'s the 21st century and it\'s sad we still have to put up with it.
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Trying to get back on topic...the arguement was whether DVD\'s are adequate for this generation of gaming. Where is the proof that it\'s not?
Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3\'s shader abilities are a big factor.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html
Just the first of soon to be multiple games that need bluray. And please don\'t bring up PS1 generation multiple discs :rolleyes:
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I also found this at the Beyond3D forums
"The Darkness" developer:
"The 360 is a fantastic machine. I really really like it. The only thing, you know, that is going to cause trouble is the amount of storage space available on a DVD... thats really a problem."
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=446554
Quote:
Team Ninja:
"The infamous Team Ninja front man has a thing or two to say about Microsoft\'s decision to assign standard DVD format to the Xbox 360. Limiting his development team to a measly 9GB does not sit well with Itagaki, especially when Team Ninja is looking to include any number of (MS-coveted) HD cut scenes. It\'s ironic that Microsoft has been the most outspoken about the "HD era", but is the least prepared for HD. However, don\'t be surprised to see an Xbox 360.1 springing up in a year or two, complete with HD-DVD drive."
http://www.joystiq.com/2005/07/05/it...f-on-xbox-360-
limitations/
Quote:
"Enchant Arms" developer:
"The developer of "Enchant Arms," an upcoming role-playing game in Japan, told Gamespot.com last year it was hoping to be able to fit the game on two discs, but admitted "that\'s even looking grim." Any old school gamer can tell you that switching discs while playing is not a fun experience."
http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/comm...r/column_gamin
g/index.htm
Quote:
Vivendi Universal:
"The technical requirement for game development today demands more advanced optical-disc technologies," said Michael Heilmann, chief technology officer for Vivendi Universal.
"Blu-ray offers the capacity, performance and high-speed internet connectivity to take us into the future of gaming."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm
Quote:
EA
"EA, a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4153813.stm
Quote:
Ninja theory:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Well i want to ask something if i may.Do you guys use/plan to use the extra space the blu-ray provides,for the benefit of the game,or its just to early for that yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arfi-Gorgona-O
Guys,someone to answer my question too?At least tell me if you cant so i wont ask again,even a no comment is good enough for me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja Mikey
[NT-DEV] Chief Technology Ninja
Sorry Arfi - let\'s see if we can\'t get you a decent answer....
"Yes!"
There you go
Seriously though the game is gonna need a whole lot of data for all the levels and characters that we are planning. At Sony\'s presentation on Monday last week they had a slide showing that the storage medium for a console is usually 100 times the size of the consoles main RAM - the point being that a DVD wouldn\'t be able to hold enough data for a AAA quality game. So yes, we\'ll definitely be needing the space that\'s available on the BD!
http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/sh...p?t=111&page=3
Quote:
Mar Rein:
Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we\'re going to fit them on DVD9\'s I don\'t know, they\'ll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we\'re going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks. So, online isn\'t really the best option in some instances.Downloading 30Gb isn\'t really feasible. What online could be, is the back-channel to get additional content. Patches and things like that. I think what Valve has done is great. It\'ll be interesting to see where marketing fits in. Now they\'re going with EA in the future, the biggest publisher of all. You can\'t do one without the other, otherwise no-one knows about your game. Unless you have the huge marketing budgets that major retailers have when launching your game, so I think there\'s still a very important role for retailers. For even more ownage here is an article about blu ray movies that already require and use 50gb discs
http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=125925
Quote:
Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto:
"Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make. Toriyama noted that, regarding visual expression, the PS3\'s shader abilities are a big factor."
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/710/710761p1.html
Quote:
Q: Will the graphics improve from F1 05?
A: We try hard every year to improve where neccessary, but as I said before, the PS2 is running on it\'s limits with the 22 cars. Graphically it is similar to F105, although we believe that the driving experience is much more rewarding with the new kerbing and the new phyiscs. The PS3, though, is something else! That machine is a Beast! We are adding an enormous amount of graphic detail to absolutely everything. To give you some idea about detail levels, one car in the PS3 game takes up the same amount of memory as all 22 cars in the PS2 version!! That\'s a 22 fold increase! You can damage the sidepods on the PS3 cars and see in side the car and it has radiators and exhaust pipes and everything. It\'s awesome. Gameplay-wise the PS3 also allows us to use much more accuarate collision models. In a PS2, the car has an invisible sensor that detects collisions all the way around the car, but in the PS3, there is no single box you can get the wheels interlocked with the other cars.
http://www.f1gamers.com/f1/apanel/vi....php?id=130&pa
ge=4
Quote:
Ubisoft
OPM: How\'s your experience with the storage media of the PS3, the HDD and the BluRay disc? And do you have any comparable experience with HD-DVD technology?
M.M.: Our focus is 100% BluRay, so I cannot compare with HD-DVD. I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to. And that\'s really important, because Data Streaming (OPMED: where the console constantly loads new data from disc) is truly the only way to push next-gen games to the limit. The Playstation 3 HDD is something that we have so far given less attention to, because it hasn\'t been certain all that long yet that it will be standard on every console. Decreasing load-times by copying a part of the game to the HDD is one possibility, though it doesn\'t matter all that much for a streaming game like ours. But there are tons of other applications, such as the possibility to as it were record your whole game, to be able to watch a replay of it later on. We intend to use the HD optimally, but how, I can\'t tell yet currently.
http://boardsus.playstation.com/play...essage?board.i
d=ps3&message.id=404546#M404546
Looks like blu-ray is going to make a real difference.
elitefaction.TK HTML and webdesign experts needed.
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Just the first of soon to be multiple games that need bluray. And please don\'t bring up PS1 generation multiple discs :rolleyes:
Why not? It is a perfectly valid alternative.
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Not to mention a cheaper one.
And useful as a marketing tool.
Publisher: "Two discs!"
Consumer: "Wow!!!"
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Not that much of a good alternative if countless games start appearing on multible disks.
And not very likeable from developers either according to their statements.
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No I agree. Having more space on one disc is great if they\'re going to fill it up with hi-def images. But if it\'s just for the odd game, then multiple discs is just as practical as ever.
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Ahm...if the game needs more than 1 DVD withought any Hi-def movies its a different case? I dont get your logic :confused:
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Those games are few and far between, so it\'s a non-issue unless developers start gobbling up space with hi-def images moving forward.
Which could happen.
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Those games are few and far between, so it\'s a non-issue unless developers start gobbling up space with hi-def images moving forward.
Which could happen.
Could happen, but doubtful. Developers are still not using the full space of the DVD format. Not saying it won\'t, but I truly doubt it.
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doubt it within the next 6 months?
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It\'s hard to say mm. I said it could happen, but I\'m not familiar with the development costs for creating something in high-def. I know the push towards realistic graphics and CGI cutscenes equated to rapidly increasing development costs.
If that trend continues, how could pushing the limits with high-def really be common place? Big developers, sure, but it\'s a tough business for the littler guys.
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OK I looked up some information...
A single layered bluray disc is 25GB and can hold 2 hours of high definition video. A dual-layered bluray disc is 50GB and can hold 4 hours of HD video.
A dual-layered DVD is 9GB and can only hold 40 minutes of HD video.
So if you do the math it takes 12.5 GB of space to hold 1 hour of high definition CG. That\'s nearly 1 and a half dual layered DVDs for high def CG alone. Games like Final Fantasy usually average 1 hr of CG.
So that leaves Square Enix just 5.5GB to finish the rest of Final Fantasy XIII and keep it on 2 dual-layered DVDs.
But it\'s not just the usual suspects (RPGS) who are worried about the space. The DOA team is concerned as well. I really can\'t and dont want to see a 2 disc fighting game. So before long I can imagine certain games in almost every genre will need more than 9GB of space.
Recently I went over to a friend\'s house and he had all the LOTR special edition discs, and I was shocked they had to spread the movie over 2 discs, (with the extras taking up yet 2 more discs) and it was annoying as can be having to eject the discs over and over so he could just show me the extra scenes and easter eggs.
Same goes with games. Whenever I want to play FF7 again I want to sometimes go to disc 2 or then to 3 and believe me having to get up all the time to switch discs has gotten annoying after being so use to games being on one disc during the PS2 generation.
Just like with PS2, games at first probably won\'t need the extra space. Alot of first generation PS2 games were released on CD. Then almost every single game needed DVD. I see this happening with the current generation.
DVDs are fine for this generation if you don\'t mind losing titles like Final Fantasy XIII or you don\'t care about popping in disc 2 of the latest DOA game just to see the ending cutscene.
Could happen, but doubtful. Developers are still not using the full space of the DVD format. Not saying it won\'t, but I truly doubt it.
+
Maybe developers didnt use all 9GBs of dual-layered DVDs last generation, but this generation there is absolutley no doubt that alot of games will blow by 9GBs. Final Fantasy XIII is the first game that I know of that has confirmed it was not possible on DVD, and I\'m sure the list will continue to grow larger and larger as we get deeper into the PS3\'s lifespan.
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Ugh if DOA developers plan on including 1 hour + of cutscenes, they need to rethink what\'s important in gaming.
Unless they\'re working on another volleyball game. And then, have at it!
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Ugh if DOA developers plan on including 1 hour + of cutscenes, they need to rethink what\'s important in gaming.
Unless they\'re working on another volleyball game. And then, have at it!
What worries me is that if developers of a simple fighting game are complaining about the space available on a dual-layered DVD what does that mean for much more complex games like Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy to name just a few? I honestly can see some games needing a dual layered bluray before the PS3\'s lifespan is up
edit: a dual layered DVD can only hold around 40 minutes of HD video, so if DOA only includes lets say 30 minutes of HD video 80% of the disc space is already gone.
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The DOA developers are notoriously whiny.
Oh and if getting up to change a disc every 10 or so hours for FF7 then you might want rethink life.
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The DOA developers are notoriously whiny.
Oh and if getting up to change a disc every 10 or so hours for FF7 then you might want rethink life.
I guess everyone who owns 5 CD disc changers should rethink life as well
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If you think you NEED one, yes. And obviously you think you need blu-ray to make games for this generation.
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If you think you NEED one, yes..
I agree lol
And obviously you think you need blu-ray to make games for this generation.
Well I\'ll just quote myself to answer this one
DVDs are fine for this generation if you don\'t mind losing titles like Final Fantasy XIII or you don\'t care about popping in disc 2 of the latest DOA game just to see the ending cutscene.
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*sigh*
You\'re an idiot.
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I\'m more curious on the cost to make something HI-def, if it is costly, then yes, big developers will be able, but the smaller ones won\'t. And hell, will big developers even bother when a lot of people still own standard TV\'s?
So if you do the math it takes 12.5 GB of space to hold 1 hour of high definition CG. That\'s nearly 1 and a half dual layered DVDs for high def CG alone. Games like Final Fantasy usually average 1 hr of CG.
So that leaves Square Enix just 5.5GB to finish the rest of Final Fantasy XIII and keep it on 2 dual-layered DVDs.
How about cut down on the damn CG? It\'s a game, not a movie.
Final Fantasy XIII is the first game that I know of that has confirmed it was not possible on DVD, and I\'m sure the list will continue to grow larger and larger as we get deeper into the PS3\'s lifespan.
Yes! More CG! More realistic CG! I mean, come on, if they cut down on the unnessarcy CG, then there is plenty of space.
Infact, CG should be banned from games, just like FMV should of been banned in the 90\'s.
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because story development is the devil
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because games that lack excessive CG/FMV don\'t have sufficient story development? :confused:
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I don\'t own a lot of CG heavy games, so I can\'t speak for the A-list titles, but in the games I do have, CG = boring.
Real time cutscenes a la King Kong are way better in my opinion. They require a different kind of creativity than that of Square and its never ending desire to make movies.
But like I said, hi-def cg will necessitate blu-ray storage capacity.
As an owner of an HDTV, I get giddy thinking about it... if I ever fork over the cash for a PS3 anyway. ;]
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you will
:thumb:
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you will
:thumb:
As will I...
USED.
;)
As for CG - games are not movie\'s. I don\'t need 10 mintue cutscenes with high quality CG.
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games are not movies?
never played dragon\'s lair?
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Man I went to the video store to pick up a movie and there are still some movies that they do not yet have on dvd. I was like damn come on now. So I don\'t think we have to worry about blueray taking over anytime soon.
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Those games are few and far between,
Not according to developers.
so it\'s a non-issue unless developers start gobbling up space with hi-def images moving forward.
Which could happen.
It will just like every generation
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Parkinson\'s Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson\'s_law)
"Parkinson\'s Law" could be more generalized still as: "The demand upon a resource always expands to match the supply of the resource.
This is an old law, and one of the most *true*.
From personal experience, when I had a 2 GB HDD, It was full, then 40. then 300, now 1400, always full.
*edit*
Most coherent drunken post ever. I\'m the worlds best drunken typer. I didn\'t even have to read the first three pages to own this thread.
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I\'m more curious on the cost to make something HI-def, if it is costly, then yes, big developers will be able, but the smaller ones won\'t. And hell, will big developers even bother when a lot of people still own standard TV\'s?
How about cut down on the damn CG? It\'s a game, not a movie.
Yes! More CG! More realistic CG! I mean, come on, if they cut down on the unnessarcy CG, then there is plenty of space.
Infact, CG should be banned from games, just like FMV should of been banned in the 90\'s.
amen!
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games are not movies?
never played dragon\'s lair?
Own a copy.
It sucked.
Move along.
;)
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die, blasphemer!
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die, blasphemer!
Sorry, but it did, along with Space Ace. ;)
Still, I guess I\'m old school in the sense that I don\'t want CG, any cutscenes should be done real time and I don\'t want voice acting. Anything said, should be text based, so that I can imagine what the characters sound like. Only a handful of games have got voice acting right, in my opinion.
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Anything said, should be text based, so that I can imagine what the characters sound like. Only a handful of games have got voice acting right, in my opinion.
Personally, I think it would be great if the visuals were text-based too, so I can use my IMAGINATION instead of some pre-thought out nonsense some well-paid designer cooked up.
It\'s my mind, just let me live.
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i like the way max payne did it
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i think we need voice acting...it\'s actually gotten better over the years, but it all depends on the talent..the text based stuff still works for some games...mostly rpg\'s, but i\'d prefer voice acting over text if i had a choice,..as far as cgi goes, i think graphics are strong enough to use ingame graphics at this point and that cgi stuff is not really good,..tho i still am very much impressed with what the big companies like capcom(onimusha 3) and square(ff) can do with them...
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Not saying I\'m a videophile (just enthusiast), but I can definitely tell 720p from 1080i/p.
1080i vs. p is noticable when the content is moving, and it really bugs me. I hope 1080i is the LAST resolution that will ever be interlaced. It\'s the 21st century and it\'s sad we still have to put up with it.
You have an eye for it but I\'m willing to bet the average person would be hard pressed to see a difference. Don\'t get me wrong, I always want the best that the picture can be. I\'m talking about the general public.
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Sorry, but it did, along with Space Ace. ;)
Whoa!!!!
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clowd, Dead or Alive has ALOT of CG cutscenes. The final Dead or Alive 4 game came in around 5 GB last I read.
uni, those quotes are old. Encant Arms came on one DVD...with several hours of cg.
I\'m with LICky. CG is lame.
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CG is a cop out. Nothing more. Somewhere during the 32 bit generation developers decided they wanted to be filmmakers and we got all this crap-ass CG and storytelling.
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CG needs more boobie.
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ala god of war. (Which in my opinion doesn\'t really benefit from the cutscenes)
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Remember when I use to start every post with "you fucking retard" and the topic would go 6 pages and get closed?
Good times.
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The convergence of CG/realtime engine storytelling and gameplay is the ultimate future :thumb:
That\'s why we need such storage formats.
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uni, those quotes are old. Encant Arms came on one DVD...with several hours of cg.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/711/711612p3.html
Release date: August 29 :confused:
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CG is a cop out. Nothing more. Somewhere during the 32 bit generation developers decided they wanted to be filmmakers and we got all this crap-ass CG and storytelling.
CG needs more boobie.
Yeah, your right. All that CG doesn\'t belong in games. I wish there wasn\'t 1 minute of it in FF7. Yeah, the part in FF7 where the WEAPONS break out of the Earth should have been done in real time. So what if the WEAPONS would have been made up of 100 polygons...and the Tifa part...
Yeah right ;) CG was done right in FF7 and every FF for that matter. Now tell me this scene could have been better in realtime.
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/ff7_fmvshots-d2-northern-crater-explodes2.php
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No. Text would have done it better :D
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Nah...
Text belongs in BOOKS. Keep videogames pure, no text in videogames !
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No! Text Is The Future!
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http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/711/711612p3.html
Release date: August 29 :confused:
it\'s been out in Japan since February.
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The convergence of CG/realtime engine storytelling and gameplay is the ultimate future :thumb:
That\'s why we need such storage formats.
I think games like Metal Gear Solid, Vagrant Story, and Xenosaga are prime examples of what can be achieved with the in-game engine.
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Difference is that these games need extra storage despite that they dont need CGI
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Difference is that these games need extra storage despite that they dont need CGI
so far, no they don\'t. When the first Xbox 360 game comes out on more than one disc then I\'ll agree with you.
EDIT: Even when the first multi-disc game does come out on the 360, it will be one of very very VERY few. And just so we\'re clear here, when I say multi-disc game I mean actual gameplay spanning more than one disc. That is, bonus DVDs with extra content don\'t count.
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I think games like Metal Gear Solid, Vagrant Story, and Xenosaga are prime examples of what can be achieved with the in-game engine.
heheh, i was just kidding a little bit there ;)
As long as the transfer data rate is fast enough for streaming off disc any format with HD rez, will do. I agree.
But i think it\'s a bussiness thing as well ; sometimes devteams don\'t have time themselves to do all cutscenes so they will have to hire animation studios. I can imagine that the dev studio is not eager to hand out a game engine to a third party animation studio ; so it might be a bit more cost effective to just give those guys the base models and let them tweak and customize those models for full Cgi.
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so far, no they don\'t. When the first Xbox 360 game comes out on more than one disc then I\'ll agree with you.
EDIT: Even when the first multi-disc game does come out on the 360, it will be one of very very VERY few. And just so we\'re clear here, when I say multi-disc game I mean actual gameplay spanning more than one disc. That is, bonus DVDs with extra content don\'t count.
Simple.
When MGS4 and other games are released on PS3 with few or no CGI at all check the size. That should be a better indication.
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Simple.
When MGS4 and other games are released on PS3 with few or no CGI at all check the size. That should be a better indication.
won\'t prove anything. with 25+ gigs the developers won\'t be pressed to optimize their code and strive for the best compression possible.
the only thing that will prove whether DVD\'s are okay for this generation is how many 360 games end up on one DVD. so far, each of them are on one dvd, and none of them have come close to the 8.5 gig limit.
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Any link?
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won\'t prove anything. with 25+ gigs the developers won\'t be pressed to optimize their code and strive for the best compression possible.
the only thing that will prove whether DVD\'s are okay for this generation is how many 360 games end up on one DVD. so far, each of them are on one dvd, and none of them have come close to the 8.5 gig limit.
They\'re all on DVD because that\'s all they can put their games on. They pretty much have to compress as much as they can.
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Any link?
why do you need a link? It just makes sense. Why would a developer spend the effort to optimally compress when they don\'t need to?
as far as game sizes, go search beyond3d forums for their thread about this. in it you\'ll find several game sizes. I could be wrong, but I don\'t think any of them went over 6 gigs. the most recent example they had, and arguably the best, was Oblivion which came in around 4.x gigs. if you know anything about that game, then you\'d see how silly this whole arguement is (think 200+ hour rpg, every NPC has a voice over, hours of music, etc).
I don\'t see why you are arguing this so much. Fact is right now that all 360 games are on one DVD, and there have been some pretty sweet hi-res, next gen experiences thus far.
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why do you need a link? It just makes sense. Why would a developer spend the effort to optimally compress when they don\'t need to?
as far as game sizes, go search beyond3d forums for their thread about this. in it you\'ll find several game sizes. I could be wrong, but I don\'t think any of them went over 6 gigs. the most recent example they had, and arguably the best, was Oblivion which came in around 4.x gigs. if you know anything about that game, then you\'d see how silly this whole arguement is (think 200+ hour rpg, every NPC has a voice over, hours of music, etc).
I don\'t see why you are arguing this so much. Fact is right now that all 360 games are on one DVD, and there have been some pretty sweet hi-res, next gen experiences thus far.
I ment link containing how many GBs 360 games take
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I ment link containing how many GBs 360 games take
and I answered. go to beyond3d forums. there, you can also read their take on this tripe discussion.
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Maybe if it was on a bigger disk, Waspman wouldn\'t have had been disappointed with Oblivion :p
http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38585
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Dayum all the way to page 7 on this topic?
Anyway games such as UT2007 are hitting the 6 gig mark IIRC. If first gen games are up to that point I think it\'s wise to be open to the possibility of games needing more than 9gigs in the next 5 years.
I\'m willing to pay a premium to have a next-generation optical technology but I understand not many people will share the same sentiment, especially thrifty console gamers.
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Maybe if it was on a bigger disk, Waspman wouldn\'t have had been disappointed with Oblivion :p
http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38585
I don\'t follow how DVD capacity has anything to do with frame rate. Oblivion didn\'t take up even half of a DVD9.
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I don\'t follow how DVD capacity has anything to do with frame rate. Oblivion didn\'t take up even half of a DVD9.
*sigh* Apparently someone can\'t take a fucking joke.
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*sigh* Apparently someone can\'t take a fucking joke.
only the funny ones.
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I don\'t follow how DVD capacity has anything to do with frame rate. Oblivion didn\'t take up even half of a DVD9.
Flightsimulator 98 was on 1 CD and modeled the entire world
Don\'t use games with large land areas as examples for games they need alot of space
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CGI will fill the disc. This has always been the case. Nothing has changed except that hi-def is a larger file size. Hence, larger disc space.
Nothing like a couple new consoles to bring out the warm fuzzy feeling around here, eh?
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and I answered. go to beyond3d forums. there, you can also read their take on this tripe discussion.
There are lots of pages some saying a bigger format will be needed and others saying it wont. Which is what we are doing here too :p
I only want to see a link containing information on the size 360 games take from the disc.
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There are lots of pages some saying a bigger format will be needed and others saying it wont. Which is what we are doing here too :p
I only want to see a link containing information on the size 360 games take from the disc.
I don\'t remember the title of the thread, but I know it\'s there. If I feel up to it then I\'ll go searching and link it here for you.
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Fucking hell, it had been so long since I posted in this thread...the file sizes of some of the 360 games are in the original post of this very thread (the article which I grabbed from beyond3d).
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CGI will fill the disc. This has always been the case. Nothing has changed except that hi-def is a larger file size. Hence, larger disc space.
Nothing like a couple new consoles to bring out the warm fuzzy feeling around here, eh?
Preach on brother.
Preach on.