PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: Eiksirf on June 28, 2006, 07:27:48 AM
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I\'ve seen rumors that the controller has changed again, possibly by moving the R2 and L2 buttons (thank god) to be more like the N64 Z Trigger.
Any pics or sources? I don\'t frequent a lot of PS2 sites...
Except this one. :)
-Dan
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i hope not, and they better not include a "rumble" feature like i\'ve been reading rumors about.
the N64 "trigger" button was retarded
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I think I saw a pic of the controller, the the R2 and L2 are just moved back a bit and extend further from the controller. They added LEDs on top, four of them, to indicate what player you are, which is cool.
Last I heard, rumble was still out.
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I thinik it will be a good idea if they include the4 normal shoulder buttons PLUS the triggers a la DC controller.
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I thinik it will be a good idea if they include the4 normal shoulder buttons PLUS the triggers a la DC controller.
just like the Xbox 360 controller. I agree, it works well.
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i hope not, and they better not include a "rumble" feature like i\'ve been reading rumors about.
the N64 "trigger" button was retarded
uhm...*raises hand slowly*...i know it really doesn\'t make a difference but the rumble feature did enhance the gaming experience a bit..:(...i\'ll miss that feature a little,...i was also one of the few that didn\'t mind that boomerang style of the initial controller...the nintendo trigger button?...yea i had issues with that controller....i guess i\'m just spoiled by the dual shock....
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Immersion wants to kiss and make up with Sony (http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jun2006/id20060621_890559.htm?chan=innovation_game+room_top+stories)
as regards to using their rumble technology. They won the 90 mil lawsuit, but they\'re now in a funk that if Sony doesn\'t support the rumble feature at all, so that 3rd parties can\'t even take advantage, then they will loose a lot of revenue that they would have made from the PS3.
None of the PS3 news sites I frequent have any mention or pictures of a new DS3, although the ones released earlier already showed a few LEDs along the back for player, and the triggers more slanted inwards. I will miss the boomerang though, I wonder if they might release it anyways or if a 3rd party will make one....
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Yeah, fatal, it turns out it\'s just stuff on the E3 controller that I hadn\'t noticed before.
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Fatal, I wouldn\'t be surprised if a third party made a boomerang like controller. Unfortunately, the third party one will undoubtedly suck. I think the only way it could be pulled off is if a company like Logitech and Sony jointly created it like they did the wireless controller for PS2.
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lol @ mm
Sony decides to not include a feature and suddenly it was never good in the first place.
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I liked the rumble feature personally.
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I didn\'t care for it, but I certainly think they should keep it.
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I didn\'t care for it, but I certainly think they should keep it.
After a while, I never really noticed it. My hands like became numb to it. There should have been a button on the controller (more like a switch) to turn it on or off instead of in the game itself.
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After a while, I never really noticed it. My hands like became numb to it. There should have been a button on the controller (more like a switch) to turn it on or off instead of in the game itself.
nar switches or push button switches tend to degrade to quickly.. after time the switch will either never work or always be on. I\'d prefer my games to have the control rather then a switch. More crap on a controller means more shit that can fuck up on it.
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The N64 controlled was the worst controller ever desgined. Good A and B buttons.... then someone went screwy. 4 midget sized \'C\' buttons, all of which don\'t really line up and have any sort of formation with the rest of the controller. A \'z\' button, that god forbid you played a game that used the D-Pad, was completely useless. Oh yea, and why did they add a left shoulder button when most of the games used the joystick? And let\'s not forget the rumble pak.
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I never really got bothered by the N64 controller. I found the joystick ok, could have been a tad less sensitive. The triger and buttons were comfy, as was the grip design. No problems playing it for looooong stretches (especially in the glory days of Goldeneye). My least favorite controller is probably the original nintendo controllers, before they made the NES II with it\'s SNES rounded controllers.
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I never really got bothered by the N64 controller. I found the joystick ok, could have been a tad less sensitive. The triger and buttons were comfy, as was the grip design. No problems playing it for looooong stretches (especially in the glory days of Goldeneye). My least favorite controller is probably the original nintendo controllers, before they made the NES II with it\'s SNES rounded controllers.
The NES controller never bothered me until I used a less boxy controller and went back. That is when it really started to bother me. But now I just suck it up and deal :)
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I like it. No gimmicks just you and the game. Play or go home. Or, play or get out of the house. Which ever.
The NES pad is one of my favorites, ergonomics be damned.
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I like it. No gimmicks just you and the game. Play or go home. Or, play or get out of the house. Which ever.
The NES pad is one of my favorites, ergonomics be damned.
Who needs ergonomics when you have a square ;)
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I like it. No gimmicks just you and the game. Play or go home. Or, play or get out of the house. Which ever.
The NES pad is one of my favorites, ergonomics be damned.
I dont thing it was good in terms of ergonomics. But then again they werent as important since games were simpler and easier to control.
The more complicated a game gets the more important ergonomics get
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I dont thing it was good in terms of ergonomics. But then again they werent as important since games were simpler and easier to control.
The more complicated a game gets the more important ergonomics get
Uh?
The complexity of the game has no impact on the EGRONOMIC design of the controller. The NES controller was not ergonomic, but it was not due to the simple games.
"Ergonomics, also known as human engineering or human factors engineering, the science of designing machines, products, and systems to maximize the safety, comfort, and efficiency of the people who use them."
The comfort of the controller has nothing to do with a game being complicated nor does it make it "more important".
Good ergonomic controller design is just that. It\'s nothing more. Simple or complex games don\'t matter. It all comes down to hardware design. Your logic is the games were simple, so ergonomics was not important. Simply not true.
I have to wonder if you even know what the word means.
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Uh?
The complexity of the game has no impact on the EGRONOMIC design of the controller. The NES controller was not ergonomic, but it was not due to the simple games.
The comfort of the controller has nothing to do with a game being complicated nor does it make it "more important".
Good ergonomic controller design is just that. It\'s nothing more. Simple or complex games don\'t matter. It all comes down to hardware design. Your logic is the games were simple, so ergonomics was not important. Simply not true.
I have to wonder if you even know what the word means.
Umm, wrong. As games have be come more complex they\'ve needed more things like buttons, analog sticks etc. Because this has happened, there’s no way you could fit all these things onto a square control pad and keep it comfortable. This has forced engineers to design control pads that are easier to use with least amount of discomfort. If games still required only 2 buttons, I doubt much would have changed. Complex games = complex control pads. Hence why there\'s such thing as even shoulder buttons, as example...
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How about this, ergonomics and game complexity go hand in hand? Both kinda rely on each other if you think about it. The more buttons you have, a comfortably designed controller wiill be better. Say an NES controller was designed very comfortably. It would be sweet to have. Say the PS2 had a controller like NES. That would suck. It would hurt the hand to move around hitting the buttons. However, we could get by without it.
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How about.....
NO.
He said.......
I dont thing it was good in terms of ergonomics. But then again they werent as important since games were simpler and easier to control.
That is to imply that due to a game being simple the controller didn\'t need to be comfortable or have good ergonomics. That\'s insane.
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How about.....
NO.
He said.......
That is to imply that due to a game being simple the controller didn\'t need to be comfortable or have good ergonomics. That\'s insane.
I know what he said and I didn\'t agree with it. I was just saying they go hand in hand...meaning you both had a point. I just didn\'t happen to agree with him. Anyway, I was just throwing ideas out there :)
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No LIC is right, ergonomics is separate from amount of buttons or controller function.
It\'s form factor, whether it be your computer mouse, an SNES controller, the 360 game pad, your tv remote, the PSP or the viewing angle at which you set your PC monitor. This is ergonomics.
Separate is the issue of how many buttons and sticks do we need.
One is function and the other is form, making sure the device is comfortable - ergonomic.
Of course if you add a joystick you need to find a comfortable place for it, but it\'s because you\'re taking into consideration both function and form. They\'re still two different things...
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No LIC is right, ergonomics is separate from amount of buttons or controller function.
It\'s form factor, whether it be your computer mouse, an SNES controller, the 360 game pad, your tv remote, the PSP or the viewing angle at which you set your PC monitor. This is ergonomics.
Separate is the issue of how many buttons and sticks do we need.
One is function and the other is form, making sure the device is comfortable - ergonomic.
Of course if you add a joystick you need to find a comfortable place for it, but it\'s because you\'re taking into consideration both function and form. They\'re still two different things...
Thank God someone gets it.
You people are confusing the need for more buttons, with ergonomics. Your logic is that with games being more complex, we add more buttons and then, ONLY THEN does ergonomics become important. Not true. If that was true, no one would of had a right to complain about hand cramps with the old NES pad.
Don\'t confuse the form factor design with the complex issues of games. Anyone can make a non-comfortable controller with a ton of buttons (see: Atari Jaguar), but that doesn\'t mean it\'s ergonomic. An ergonomic controller is one that is comfortable for the player and it does not matter if it has one button of thirty. It\'s ergonomic, it\'s comfortable.
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They go hand in hand, it\'s retard to believe otherwise. A complex control is only viable and usable if it\'s designed well and is comfortable. I never had any problems with old nes, snes pads etc. As i said before, as new things have been added to the controls.
They\'ve had to redesign them for comfort and functionality. There’s no point having a analog stick on a control pad when u can’t reach it, or it feels totally uncomfortable to reach it. Sure there\'s been control pads on the market that have had problems like this, which is why they normally don\'t get bought or have shit loads of complaints about. Thats why the psx pad was so successful and most current pads are based from it. It was easy to use, comfortable and had 10 buttons that were easy to use.
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of the many controllers i used (nes, snes, genesis, psone, ps2) I like the snes the most. it feels light, but it\'s also ergonomic to my hands. sure it doesn\'t have many gadgets like rumble feature, analog joysticks. But it feels very comfortable to hold and press many of the buttons.
If NES was design like the SNES with only two buttons on the right side instead of 4 and no top buttons, but shape like the SNES. It would have been a great ergonomics too. But the NES controller designs wasn\'t bad either.
the PSX controller was another good design for ergonomic, but it wasn\'t as light as the SNES controller though and by comfort comparison, the SNES fit better on my hands than PSOne...
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There’s no point having a analog stick on a control pad when u can’t reach it, or it feels totally uncomfortable to reach it. Sure there\'s been control pads on the market that have had problems like this, which is why they normally don\'t get bought or have shit loads of complaints about. Thats why the psx pad was so successful and most current pads are based from it. It was easy to use, comfortable and had 10 buttons that were easy to use.
so true....even tho i bought the nintendo 64 for my son, the 64 controller wasn\'t really that comfortable to me at all. heh but my son could work wonders with that thing...trigger buttons and all. and i\'ve seen those aftermarket controllers you speak of with like a million buttons on it..:p...they may look nice, but i\'m sure it has to be uncomfortable to use or un-ergonomic...;)
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They go hand in hand, it\'s retard to believe otherwise. ... Sure there\'s been control pads on the market that have had problems like this
It\'s retarded to believe they don\'t go hand-in-hand even when there are products on the market that prove they don\'t go hand-in-hand?
They are often considered together because that makes for a quality product. So they should go hand-in-hand, but that\'s up to the product developer.
And things like the NES pad and Atari joystick were not ergonomic, despite being efficient means of playing their software.
A computer mouse may only have one button, but it is still designed ergonomically.
Two separate considerations when designing a product - form and function.
-Dan
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. A complex control is only viable and usable if it\'s designed well and is comfortable. I never had any problems with old nes, snes pads etc. As i said before, as new things have been added to the controls.
You prove my point right there.
Right,a complex control pad does need to be comfortable, but it does not HAVE TO BE. Just like a simple control pad does NOT have to be comfortable. They only go hand-in-hand, because when put together, they make a great product.
A company, like Atari can make a controller that has a lot of buttons and not ergnomic, just as easy as a controller with two buttons can be made ergonomic.
Complexity has nothing to do with the form factor. Don\'t be stupid.
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It\'s retarded to believe they don\'t go hand-in-hand even when there are products on the market that prove they don\'t go hand-in-hand?
did u miss the point?
They are often considered together because that makes for a quality product. So they should go hand-in-hand, but that\'s up to the product developer.
they do go hand in hand, thats the difference between a control pad someone buys and doesn\'t buy..
And things like the NES pad and Atari joystick were not ergonomic, despite being efficient means of playing their software.
They were ergonomic, they did what they were meant to do, they did it well and they were comfertable to use, just not by todays standards.
A computer mouse may only have one button, but it is still designed ergonomically.
Depends on the company, you said so yourself. "It\'s retarded to believe they don\'t go hand-in-hand even when there are products on the market that prove they don\'t go hand-in-hand?" so you\'re now saying they go hand in hand on mouse?
Two separate considerations when designing a product - form and function.
-Dan
Yes, and check sales out on control pads with crappy form, because it effects the function..
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I\'m good with most of what you said. I think we\'re using different words to try and say the same things.
We both know what ergonomic means (tho I still disagree regarding NES and Atari controllers) and we understand that a good product is designed with both form and function in mind.
I\'m good. ;]
-Dan
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Uh?
The complexity of the game has no impact on the EGRONOMIC design of the controller. The NES controller was not ergonomic, but it was not due to the simple games.
The comfort of the controller has nothing to do with a game being complicated nor does it make it "more important".
Good ergonomic controller design is just that. It\'s nothing more. Simple or complex games don\'t matter. It all comes down to hardware design. Your logic is the games were simple, so ergonomics was not important. Simply not true.
I have to wonder if you even know what the word means.
Ahm you got it totally wrong.
And just to see how simple it is to understand, a controller built like the NES (e rectangle flat thing), with many butons and complicated controlling, would have hurt your hands. It would have been a disaster. Despite that the NES controller was never an subject of debate in its time and nobody cared.
But this very forum and not only are proof that despite that the PS2 controller is 1000 times more ergonomic than the NES controller, some wont hesitate to discuss how much it is supposed to hurt their hands, how incomfortable it is balh blah blah.
This would have never happened if all games were simple needed a cross shaped d-pad and 2 buttons like Super Mario Bros. Instead todays games need more finger movement and there are more buttons that are highly important and on which more fingers have to be placed on, than just one thump pressing button a and b.
You posted a definition of the word ergonomics and you accidentally showed that you dont know the meaning of the things you post. Well duh you just described what exactly prooves my point right
DMC would have been a disaster on a NES controller with more buttons. But games like that didnt exist then, so nobody cared. The NES controller was perfect just as it was.
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The NES pad was later redesigned to be more ergonomic despite only having 4 face buttons (including start select) and a d-pad.
Complexity doesn\'t neccesitate good form. The two are just often considered together out of desire to make a comfortable product.
Your 2 button mouse isnt a cube for a reason.
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The NES pad was later redesigned to be more ergonomic despite only having 4 face buttons (including start select) and a d-pad.
Complexity doesn\'t neccesitate good form. The two are just often considered together out of desire to make a comfortable product.
Your 2 button mouse isnt a cube for a reason.
I agree but thats irelevant.
I didnt point anywhere in my post that complexity neccesitates a good or better form. Thats a completely different subject and totally off topic to my post.
Also about the mouse I dont think it can be compared in the same way as a gamepad. Using the mouse example and the gamepad example together is like comparing a plane with a ship.
Despite that I ll try to make the effort to use your example.
Yeah mouse has to have "curved" surface, otherwise it would have been more tiredsome after long uses. But lets assume that the mouse evolves into something that has more buttons and funtcions, more issues than just the vurvy surface would have been taken into consideration on the design of it to make it ergonomic.
More than a decade ago, mouses had a more rectangular shape since DOS were still very popular, and windows based applications werent as widespread as they are today, and neither was the mouse function as extensively used or developed through applications. That shape wasnt as much of an issue back then but still they could have made all mouse have the more comfortable shape. Back then it was an option.
The same can be similarly said for gamepads. I can play for hours Super Mario Bros on the rectangle shaped NES pad without a prblem and enjoy it. Develop the same controller shape with shoulder buttons, analog sticks, triggers, motion sensing (See Wii\'s completely different approach) which games will use all, and things that originally werent necessarrilly an issue or as important, now are.
Its no longer just an option to make the controller\'s shape more curvy, change the button possition etc as in the NES occasion. Its a necessity
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I agree but thats irelevant.
I didnt point anywhere in my post that complexity neccesitates a good or better form. Thats a completely different subject and totally off topic to my post.
Also about the mouse I dont think it can be compared in the same way as a gamepad. Using the mouse example and the gamepad example together is like comparing a plane with a ship.
Despite that I ll try to make the effort to use your example.
Yeah mouse has to have "curved" surface, otherwise it would have been more tiredsome after long uses. But lets assume that the mouse evolves into something that has more buttons and funtcions, more issues than just the vurvy surface would have been taken into consideration on the design of it to make it ergonomic.
More than a decade ago, mouses had a more rectangular shape since DOS were still very popular, and windows based applications werent as widespread as they are today, and neither was the mouse function as extensively used or developed through applications. That shape wasnt as much of an issue back then but still they could have made all mouse have the more comfortable shape. Back then it was an option.
The same can be similarly said for gamepads. I can play for hours Super Mario Bros on the rectangle shaped NES pad without a prblem and enjoy it. Develop the same controller shape with shoulder buttons, analog sticks, triggers, motion sensing (See Wii\'s completely different approach) which games will use all, and things that originally werent necessarrilly an issue or as important, now are.
Its no longer just an option to make the controller\'s shape more curvy, change the button possition etc as in the NES occasion. Its a necessity
You typed a lot and got NOTHING accomplished. It is still an option to make an umcofortable non-ergonomic controller, it\'s just companies know the controller and system would flop. You don\'t get the idea that ergonomics is a form factor and has NOTHING to do with the complexity of the controller.
Not sure how many times the same thing has to be posted for you to grasp it. Ergonomics is it\'s own thing, it does not depend on the complexity of the games.
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LIc, do a engineering course, then come back. You have no clue.
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Actually...take an industrial design course. Engineers don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.
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LIc, do a engineering course, then come back. You have no clue.
Hush up, Aussie. I\'m sorry that common logic is something your kind cannot understand.
:thumb:
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Actually...take an industrial design course. Engineers don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.
pfft.. part of my course outlay is design. Guess it just depends on where you do your schooling.
Lic, do me a favour, draw a box, put a d-pad in it, Analog stick, 10 buttons. Then shape it to what you would like and would find comfortable. Tell me if the complexity of amount of buttons needed by games doesn\'t affect the design structure of the control pad or will you just simply ignore button location?
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Well, I gotta side with LiC\'s point of view on this one, but in any event, I think that this arguement is pretty much over with. You guys are just repeating yourselves, I doubt any of you will change your minds at this point....
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bjacked.net%2FLuvToHunt%2Fforums%2FphpBB2%2Fmodules%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Falbum01%2FBeat_Dead_Horse.jpg&hash=9a59c7f594120776dfb5997754590adc4d4eaef8)
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You typed a lot and got NOTHING accomplished. It is still an option to make an umcofortable non-ergonomic controller, it\'s just companies know the controller and system would flop. You don\'t get the idea that ergonomics is a form factor and has NOTHING to do with the complexity of the controller.
Not sure how many times the same thing has to be posted for you to grasp it. Ergonomics is it\'s own thing, it does not depend on the complexity of the games.
And I thought I had comprehension problems. Too bad.
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pfft.. part of my course outlay is design. Guess it just depends on where you do your schooling.
Lic, do me a favour, draw a box, put a d-pad in it, Analog stick, 10 buttons. Then shape it to what you would like and would find comfortable. Tell me if the complexity of amount of buttons needed by games doesn\'t affect the design structure of the control pad or will you just simply ignore button location?
exactly
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rfid-weblog.com%2F50226711%2Fapplesoranges3.jpg&hash=4e7c7a48d698758be8c6ecae3ff8a2eb5b83b0b1)
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Orange > Apple.
But I do like those green apples, the red once give me a headache. :(
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Orange > Apple.
But I do like those green apples, the red once give me a headache. :(
WTF? Red apples give you headaches?
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I bought a nice fruit basket and I need to fill it with fruit...lots of kinds of fruit
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I bought a nice fruit basket and I need to fill it with fruit...lots of kinds of fruit
Give Bobbo a call.
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Immersion Tech has a good article in upcoming PS2 magazine about how the whole ditching rumble for motion support is BS. They also have found work arounds and it goes into detail with deals they\'ve tried to make with Sony, so that the rumble could be featured in the PS3 controller and how Sony has turned them down every time.
-shrugs-