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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GmanJoe on November 20, 2006, 07:36:53 AM

Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 20, 2006, 07:36:53 AM
Quote
WARNING: WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE IS PROFANE AND RACIAL

Michael Richards exploded in anger as he performed at a famous L.A. comedy club last Friday, hurling racial epithets that left the crowd gasping, and TMZ has obtained exclusive video of the ugly incident.

Richards, who played the wacky Cosmo Kramer on the hit TV show "Seinfeld," appeared onstage at the Laugh Factory in West Hollywood. It appears two guys, both African-American, were in the cheap seats playfully heckling Richards when suddenly, the comedian lost it.

The camera started rolling just as Richards began his attack, screaming at one of the men, "Fifty years ago we\'d have you upside down with a f***ing fork up your ass."

Richards continued, "You can talk, you can talk, you\'re brave now motherf**ker. Throw his ass out. He\'s a nigger! He\'s a nigger! He\'s a nigger! A nigger, look, there\'s a nigger!"

The crowd is visibly and audibly confused and upset. Richards responds by saying, "They\'re going to arrest me for calling a black man a nigger."

One of the men who was the object of Richard\'s tirade was outraged, shouting back "That\'s un-f***ing called for, ain\'t necessary."

After the three-minute tirade, it appears the majority of the audience members got up and left in disgust.

Attempts to reach Richards\' reps were unsuccessful.


http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape/
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: THX on November 20, 2006, 07:52:41 AM
this made the front page of cnn (as a linky), pretty crazy. kramer just lost it
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: CHIZZY on November 20, 2006, 08:50:25 AM
Ha!
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 20, 2006, 10:39:54 AM
There goes his career.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 20, 2006, 11:04:49 AM
Quote from: Titan
There goes his career.


Well....he barely had one since Seinfeld. But if he was trying to revive it, he just dropped a nuclear bomb on it. He could do stand up at Klan rallies. ;)
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: FatalXception on November 20, 2006, 11:12:56 AM
Eccentric man with eccentric views.  He sure went off on those guys, he must have known as he was talking what a bad idea it was, he tried to make it funny after (good luck).
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Coredweller on November 20, 2006, 11:29:26 AM
Three things:
 
1.  I hate hecklers, and I do believe they should be hung upside down with a fork in their ass.  Not because of their skin color, but because they do not respect the performer on the stage.
 
2.  In spite of that, the performer has to be professional enough to control their temper when they are heckled.  If not, they have no business being on the stage.
 
3.  Michael Richards is a worthelss racist and I hope he enjoys his future career selling cleaning products in infomercials.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 20, 2006, 11:50:16 AM
Maybe a cleaning product that helps get the black out?
 
They could call it Ethnic Cleanser and throw in a free 7 oz. tube of Oxy Clean. And some orange scented furniture polish.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Unicron! on November 20, 2006, 12:35:37 PM
What the hell is wrong with some people?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Sara on November 20, 2006, 02:59:49 PM
I was never a huge fan of the Kramer character.  I\'d take Kramer over that buffoon any day.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Jumpman on November 20, 2006, 03:11:38 PM
I was watching Seinfeld the other day and was like wow, Kramer is the greatest fucking character of all time. Only in a show like Seinfeld could he of worked and it did to perfection. This news taints my image of him now. I honestly wish I didn\'t hear about it. No explanation can sooth this over either. What\'s done is done, can\'t even blame it on being on coke. ;/
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 20, 2006, 03:31:20 PM
Quote from: Jumpman
I was watching Seinfeld the other day and was like wow, Kramer is the greatest fucking character of all time. Only in a show like Seinfeld could he of worked and it did to perfection. This news taints my image of him now. I honestly wish I didn\'t hear about it. No explanation can sooth this over either. What\'s done is done, can\'t even blame it on being on coke. ;/


+1

He sounded like is was rather drunk in the video footage.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: NVIDIA256 on November 20, 2006, 03:47:37 PM
First off while I don\'t agree in with his actions, I however 100% support his right to free speech, that is what america is all about. Richards can call whom ever he wants a diry nigger or Jew and declare them sub-human.

Unfortunaly he better be prepared for the back-lash.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: mm on November 20, 2006, 04:11:09 PM
i guess it\'s ok when eddie griffon does it....

and what were two black men doing at a Michael Richards show?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: NVIDIA256 on November 20, 2006, 04:22:31 PM
mm i side with you on this issue, but you know as well as I do that once the media runs this nationally, there going to have the whole country hating this man.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Black Samurai on November 20, 2006, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: Coredweller
1.  I hate hecklers, and I do believe they should be hung upside down with a fork in their ass.  Not because of their skin color, but because they do not respect the performer on the stage.
 
2.  In spite of that, the performer has to be professional enough to control their temper when they are heckled.  If not, they have no business being on the stage.
Hecklers are just a fact of life in comedy. They generally suck but their are the rare few that make a bad set worthwhile. Some good comics\' careers were started by heckling bad comics.
Quote from: mm
i guess it\'s ok when eddie griffon does it....

and what were two black men doing at a Michael Richards show?
Black people can\'t go to comedy shows that don\'t feature other black people?

BTW, If you REALLY want to pull that "how come they can say it" card then just body yourself now. Its a ridiculous word that no one should use, least of all white guys trying to get a rise out of some black people that hurt their feelings.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 20, 2006, 05:09:15 PM
This will just blow over exactly like when Mel Gibson made that comment about hte Jews. It was big news for a week then no one gave a shit.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: mm on November 20, 2006, 05:10:29 PM
then why do blacks use it all day long?  please don\'t act like "nigga" is a different word or meaning.
because some black teenage rappers 20 years ago thought it made them sound more "gansta".
it was stupid then, and even more so now.

hurt their feelings?  think MLK jr. got hurt feelings when he was called one?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: videoholic on November 20, 2006, 06:34:54 PM
That chick needs a new video phone.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: cloud345 on November 20, 2006, 06:35:12 PM
A lot of black people i know don\'t really care if u use the n word in a non racial way, i.e songs and such, but as soon as you use it in a racial way, youve crossed a line. The n word is just not a good word in general.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: videoholic on November 20, 2006, 06:55:26 PM
what n word?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: mm on November 20, 2006, 07:05:43 PM
how is there even a line?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 20, 2006, 07:15:09 PM
What are black people?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bobs_Hardware on November 20, 2006, 07:42:47 PM
Holy shit.

Well, I\'ll give him credit for the Planet of the Apes reference. That was funny.

The rest of it was just far too over-the-top. If you\'re going to attempt a faux-racist joke (which it seems painfully obvious to me that that\'s what this is - though I haven\'t seen the video), do not be so angry so as to imply that you\'re actually sincere.

Bad idea.

Oh well. *goes back to watching Seinfeld Season 7 on DVD*.. heh heh heh... "What\'s in the deep end??".. heh heh.. that guy.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Black Samurai on November 20, 2006, 08:39:41 PM
Quote from: mm
then why do blacks use it all day long?  please don\'t act like "nigga" is a different word or meaning.
because some black teenage rappers 20 years ago thought it made them sound more "gansta".
it was stupid then, and even more so now.

hurt their feelings?  think MLK jr. got hurt feelings when he was called one?
Black people have been saying nigga since at least the 60s. My great aunt used to call people niggers on a regular basis. Its not a hip hop thing. Its an ignorance thing.

The hurt feelings thing was about Kramer. I said he was trying to get a rise out of the black guys because they hurt HIS feelings.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 20, 2006, 08:42:03 PM
I finally got a chance to see the video. It was a bit over the top but he seemed to be responding to the heckler like a lot of comics do. He crossed the line in the end though. A lot of people thought he was joking around (and I bet he was) but took it too far.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 20, 2006, 09:19:19 PM
I knew some moron was going to bring up the whole " why can such and such say it but not this person" argument.

Its all about the context.

There are white comics that talk about race and get away with it b/c it is part of the act...however this with richards was clearly not part of his act.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Joker on November 20, 2006, 10:12:33 PM
anyone have a link to the apology on Letterman?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Halberto on November 20, 2006, 11:14:49 PM
Quote from: luckee

There are white comics that talk about race and get away with it b/c it is part of the act...however this with richards was clearly not part of his act.



I have NEVER seen that happen unless they make fun of white people.

That was just insane and uncalled for. I also love their reaction, called him a cracker-ass something.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 21, 2006, 12:03:06 AM
hears theme song.  "only in america"
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Knotter8 on November 21, 2006, 03:58:51 AM
Wow, i never expected such a thing from this one. Whatever the public opinion is, it\'s his weakness to stoop down to such acts. Let\'s hope he comes to insight himself that he made a mistake and that he should improve his deteriorated mindset.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: CHIZZY on November 21, 2006, 04:59:42 AM
Always playing the race card....



;)
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 21, 2006, 05:03:14 AM
If it were part of his act, then perhaps...it could have gotten a bit more giggles. But since it was a racist tirade.....well....it\'s all about timing, I suppose. ;)

Quote from: Halberto
I have NEVER seen that happen unless they make fun of white people.


Wrong:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCyYKOAdw7A
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 21, 2006, 06:24:54 AM
Quote from: Halberto
I have NEVER seen that happen unless they make fun of white people.



white guys are on comic view relatively often and have the majority of the kneegrows in tears with racist BS.

andrew dice clay has tackled it a few times.

lisa lampenelli does it

alot of the spanish ones do.

race isnt off limits to just one when it comes to comedians.

Im just surprised that someone who has been in the field as long as he has lost it like that. If he did that now..i can only wonder what was not caught on tape when he was a nobody tryiing to make a name for himself. I know he had to have been heckled more at that point in his life than now.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 21, 2006, 07:28:32 AM
I heard his apology on the radio this morning. He literally sounded like "HOLY SHIT! I CAN\'T BELIEVE I SAID THAT!"

I think his temper just got him insane. No excuse though. When you\'re held in high regard for your past career, you kinda have that responsibility to keep it clean.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Joker on November 21, 2006, 10:06:51 AM
I stayed up late last night for a replay of Letterman at 2:30am.

He came on during the first Jerry Seinfeld segment and while he was starting to talk Jerry scolded the audience who thought it was a comedy act "Don\'t laugh, he isn\'t trying to be funny"

There is no excuse for that kind of behaviour. I agree with you Gman, he really did sound just in disbelief that he said it.

One thing I will say positive about him tho. He did NOT blame drugs or alcohol. He said this was something inside of him that perhaps he didn\'t know was there and that he has a lot of "personal work" to do. It would of been immensly easy to do what 99% of celebrites do and say "Oh that was the booze talking" or "That was the drugs, not me".

He at least took it like a man and apologized and like I said, offered no real excuse for behaviour because its clear he is aware that well...there is no excuse for that kind of behaviour.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Coredweller on November 21, 2006, 10:29:45 AM
How can someone "not know it was there" (inside of him) after what he did?  Richards screamed "HE\'S A NI___ER!!!!" at the top of his lungs about 6 or 8 times.  Not a subtle slip of the tongue.
 
That couldn\'t have come from nowhere, nor could it be some repressed racial hatred in my opinion.  He\'s got to know consciously that he has these beliefs and he\'s been hiding them from the public.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 21, 2006, 10:36:04 AM
Quote from: Coredweller
How can someone "not know it was there" (inside of him) after what he did?  Richards screamed "HE\'S A NI___ER!!!!" at the top of his lungs about 6 or 8 times.  Not a subtle slip of the tongue.
 
That couldn\'t have come from nowhere, nor could it be some repressed racial hatred in my opinion.  He\'s got to know consciously that he has these beliefs and he\'s been hiding them from the public.


Yep. And his anger just welled up from within and the only thing he could say to them is the N word. He was clearly miffed that he wasn\'t funny and was called out on it. Then he went insane with anger...and just lashed out at them. He tried to be funny but since it wasn\'t part of his act to begin with, he knew he in a deep hole and dropped the mic and left.

No excuse. A husband who\'s been very kind to his wife all their married lives could one day just snap and back hand her. Damn. Who knows.

But...I still think he went insane with anger and now he\'s like "Oh shit. I\'m fucked."
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Joker on November 21, 2006, 10:48:20 AM
Quote from: Coredweller
How can someone "not know it was there" (inside of him) after what he did?  Richards screamed "HE\'S A NI___ER!!!!" at the top of his lungs about 6 or 8 times.  Not a subtle slip of the tongue.
 .


Theres a lot of things that people don\'t know about themselves until a tumoltuous moment in there lives. He exploded and lashed out in an obscene way.

Obviously there is more behind the scenes than we will ever know before this event happend and the hecklers brought it out in him.

btw keep in mind that i\'m not defending his actions in any way. The african americans in the audience did the right thing and went to the press and now Richards career is over. Nothing more to be said. He had a legendary character on one of arguably the best sitcoms in television history which will now be tainted and tarred by this event forever.

Aside from any physical harm done to the man I don\'t see how this could get worse for him.

Back to my original point tho "How do people not know its inside of them?".

I made a post when I broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years a few weeks back. When that happend, I found a level of anger and rage inside myself that I didn\'t know was inside of me. All it took was one immensly bad moment to push me to the edge. Long story short, that relationship ended with me saying things that
1) I\'ll regret forever because i\'ll never be able to apologize.
2) Things that made me feel like less of a man for saying.

Did I use race as a verbal attack? No, but I said things that before that night I thought I was not capable of saying. No matter how mad I got.

Maybe that isn\'t the best analogy to compare this all to. But I can totally understand losing yourself in a fit of rage and finding things out about yourself that you might not of known were there. Weather its blatant racisim or something else. It can happen.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 21, 2006, 11:01:24 AM
That\'s what I said....but shorter. ;)
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: CHIZZY on November 21, 2006, 11:02:41 AM
Maybe they were acting like assholes and needed to be called out.

Sure, he could have called them lots of other things...I dunno...


seems like a lot of fuss over one washed-up actor spewing racial epithets. I mean, who cares? I like all the hollywood c-list coming out saying it\'s "hurtful" and "damaging to the community".... who cares? People get called that word everyday. Mexicans get called spics, asians get called chinks, gooks, whatever....Big fucking deal. It\'s not like the president said it or something....
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: GmanJoe on November 21, 2006, 11:03:46 AM
Quote from: CHIZZY
Maybe they were acting like assholes and needed to be called out.

Sure, he could have called them lots of other things...I dunno...


seems like a lot of fuss over one washed-up actor spewing racial epithets. I mean, who cares? I like all the hollywood c-list coming out saying it\'s "hurtful" and "damaging to the community".... who cares? People get called that word everyday. Mexicans get called spics, asians get called chinks, gooks, whatever....Big fucking deal. It\'s not like the president said it or something....


Shush it, round eye! ;)
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Joker on November 21, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
here is the apology

http://www.devilducky.com/media/54087/
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 21, 2006, 11:14:02 AM
Least no body got hurt.
 
Someone suggested he should\'ve yada yada\'d his apology. That would\'ve at least given him a punchline, heh.
 
I\'m over this.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bobs_Hardware on November 21, 2006, 01:18:52 PM
I still don\'t think that this indicates at all that he actually is a racist. It\'s obvious that he was joking. I mean, a Planet of the Apes reference, and an upside down with a fork up your ass. I mean come on. The fact is that he was extremely pissed off, and took out the most highly sensitive material he could proffer up.

The fact that he was so riled up that it sounded malicious (and happened to repeat it) is the only thing that separates it from the constant "durr durr i\'m surprised teh black man wasn\'t stealing a vcr" type jokes that you\'ll constantly happen across on internet forums. The difference being that he was trying to incite a reaction from these people.

I call bullshit on the "there\'s something deep inside of me that I need to work out" excuse. He told a joke that got him in trouble, and is trying to weasel his way out of the reaction. That\'s the best possible option. The only other options would be to just say "get over it it was just a fucking joke" which wouldn\'t work. Or he could actually go with the racism thing and try and work it to his favour, doing gigs at clan rallies and whatnot. heh
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Deadly Hamster on November 21, 2006, 01:26:38 PM
The idea that a word always has the same meaning is utterly ridiculous. Communication does not, and has never worked that way.

With that said, I do not like when black people use the word "nigga", but I understand its intended meaning, and its interpreted meaning is a lot less imflamatory then what Kramer was doing.

Words themselves are not the only aspects of communication that determine the final meaning and how other people interpret the meaning... tone of voice, body language, volume level... Kramer was yelling, being nasty, and did not have a "joking" tone. That gives what he was saying a completely different meaning then a white or black person using the word "nigga" in a friendly, joking, or ironic manner.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Coredweller on November 21, 2006, 03:12:20 PM
I think one thing that bothers me the most about Richards\' outburst is when he said "Oooohhh ... Ooooohhh... you\'re shocked... you\'re shocked by what lies beneath the surface" or whatever.
 
He suddenly realized the magnitude of what he just screamed at the hecklers, and then tried to pretend he was Lenny Bruce, delivering a commentary on modern racism.  What complete bullshit.  The problem is he wasn\'t performing a parody of racism like Bruce, he was actually being a racist.  I did not see any redeeming comedy or thought provoking ideas in what he did on that stage.
 
He just blew his top and gave voice to his true inner feelings.  Just like Mel Gibson.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Black Samurai on November 21, 2006, 05:39:49 PM
Quote from: Halberto
I have NEVER seen that happen unless they make fun of white people.
Look up Rich Vos, Bill Burr, Ralphie May, Colin Quinn, Jim Norton, Nick DiPaolo, etc. All very funny guys(except Ralphie May who is kind of hit and miss) who have some good bits about race and black people.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bozco on November 21, 2006, 06:10:52 PM
Quote from: CHIZZY
Maybe they were acting like assholes and needed to be called out.

Sure, he could have called them lots of other things...I dunno...


seems like a lot of fuss over one washed-up actor spewing racial epithets. I mean, who cares? I like all the hollywood c-list coming out saying it\'s "hurtful" and "damaging to the community".... who cares? People get called that word everyday. Mexicans get called spics, asians get called chinks, gooks, whatever....Big fucking deal. It\'s not like the president said it or something....


Too true.  He was completely out of line but on the flip side these guys are being made out to be saints.  Get some fucking respect when you go out in public.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: clips on November 21, 2006, 09:50:30 PM
meh,...i\'ve already stated numerous times already on my feelings on black folks usin\' nigga and white folks using nigger....on the streets clearly there\'s a difference...and certain white folks can use it in their act in a way that\'s not offensive and funny,..it\'s been done...i myself do like the kramer character, but comedians get heckled all the time, and if you\'re good you can embarrass the heckler enough to shut him up for good....clearly he lost it, and it just showed what he thinks of black folk deep down inside....

that said, black folk aren\'t helping themselves by continuing to use nigga in everyday life, that\'s why you will always have white folk sayin\' well they call themselves nigga why can\'t we? It really is ignorance of the black youth\'s part, mostly because they really don\'t understand how much people from the civil rights movement back in the 60\'s have sacrificed to have and do what afri. americans are doing today....

Instead they are made to look like clowns on videos glamorizin women, fast cars and money,...and talk of killing each-other, black folk don\'t have to worry about the white man,......they only need to worry about destroyin each-other...like i stated before,...there are black folk killing each-other as i type this in the inner cities over drug territory, or just robbing their own kind over bulls**t...yet nothing is really being done or said to curb this situation,....yet let some white guy yell nigger and s**t hits the fan....our priorities and things that we really need to be worried about are backwards....
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Paul2 on November 22, 2006, 12:11:42 AM
Quote from: clips


....our priorities and things that we really need to be worried about are backwards....

well said and I agree.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 22, 2006, 01:47:54 AM
i personally don\'t understand why people get offended by nigga, being offended means you\'re giving power to the word. Don\'t get offended by it and the word loses all power it had.  The word shit has been said that much, these days no body gets offended by it.

shit shit shit titty fuck shit


did that offend anyone?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: videoholic on November 22, 2006, 04:15:01 AM
He was on letterman the other night.  He looked really shaken up about the whole thing.  I mean he looked very very distraught.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: QuDDus on November 22, 2006, 04:32:36 AM
Nothing happen to him that has not been happening to comics all the time. He is a fucking racist and thats it. Even in his apology he stills sounds like a fucking racist.  Some people are still racist pigs in this day and time. We can try and mask it and make it excuses. Deep down a lot of people are probably racist.

KKKramer
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bobs_Hardware on November 22, 2006, 04:52:56 AM
SoulGrind, here in Australia the notion of racism towards African-Americans and how it\'s perceived is completely lost on most people. Like others have stated, it\'s all in the vitriol with which the word "nigger" was delivered.

I have black friends with whom we share many japes revolving around the dreaded n-word and perceptions placed on black people (theft, violence, etc. etc.) and it\'s possible to call him that and have it be nothing more than a joke. However, if in the middle of a heated arguement, someone stood up and called him a "dirty fucking n*****" then that perception I\'m sure would be totally different.

Even then, though, it\'d be more like "Why the hell would someone try and use that as an insult??" more than "HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?!?!".

I personally think people are overreacting, and it was clearly just a joke taken far too far. I\'ve made many similar jokes in my time, where I\'ve been just as (apparently) truculent in my abuse, and I in no way consider myself a racist. I still distinguish between racism and faux-racism. And Mr. Richards definately appears to have adhered to the latter of those two categories, as evinced by the absurdity of his comments.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 22, 2006, 12:43:15 PM
Quote from: clips
meh,...i\'ve already stated numerous times already on my feelings on black folks usin\' nigga and white folks using nigger....on the streets clearly there\'s a difference...and certain white folks can use it in their act in a way that\'s not offensive and funny,..it\'s been done...i myself do like the kramer character, but comedians get heckled all the time, and if you\'re good you can embarrass the heckler enough to shut him up for good....clearly he lost it, and it just showed what he thinks of black folk deep down inside....

that said, black folk aren\'t helping themselves by continuing to use nigga in everyday life, that\'s why you will always have white folk sayin\' well they call themselves nigga why can\'t we? It really is ignorance of the black youth\'s part, mostly because they really don\'t understand how much people from the civil rights movement back in the 60\'s have sacrificed to have and do what afri. americans are doing today....

Instead they are made to look like clowns on videos glamorizin women, fast cars and money,...and talk of killing each-other, black folk don\'t have to worry about the white man,......they only need to worry about destroyin each-other...like i stated before,...there are black folk killing each-other as i type this in the inner cities over drug territory, or just robbing their own kind over bulls**t...yet nothing is really being done or said to curb this situation,....yet let some white guy yell nigger and s**t hits the fan....our priorities and things that we really need to be worried about are backwards....


Truer words could not be spoken.

Its pissing me off that people keep calling him racist. People have no idea what "racist" actually means. Racist means believing one race is better than another. KKK is racist. What he MAY be is prejudice, which means having negative thoughts about a group of people. Richards isn\'t saying whites are better than blacks or anything so he\'s NOT a racist. What he is is prejudice, if he even is that. I mean, even people who hold no prejudices say nigger in the confines of their own people. My roommates do it and they have friends who are black and listen to rap music and hip hop. My one roommate really thinks Beyonce is hot (which she is btw). They aren\'t racist or prejudice. People who hold no prejudices still tell race jokes. I\'ve done it. I\'m not prejudice against any race. I have asian, black, hispanic friends and I\'ve joked with all about race with them.

Quote

racist
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one\'s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.


Not Michael Richards. If he said that white people were better then this would hold true.

Quote

prejudice
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.


Much more fitting. Before you people call anyone a racist, learn what the fucking word means and chill on playing the race card.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 22, 2006, 12:46:15 PM
racist..maybe not by definition.

the race card issue is pretty valid seeing how thats what this whole little mess is about..lollerskates!!
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 22, 2006, 12:51:20 PM
Quote from: luckee
racist..maybe not by definition.

the race card issue is pretty valid seeing how thats what this whole little mess is about..lollerskates!!


But people are calling him a racist and shit when its not what he really is. I consider that pulling the race card. Come on. Everyone in their lifetime says some "racist" stuff at some point in their lives and anyone who says they aren\'t is probably lying. He was stupid about it but I don\'t think he\'s a racist. Possibly has some prejudices against black people but he\'s not a racist. He tried to play it off as part of his act and failed miserably. He should have just ignored them.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Coredweller on November 22, 2006, 01:14:09 PM
OK Dictionary Dan, why are you making such a big deal about what word we call him?  You act as if calling him a RACIST is much worse than calling him a PREJUDICED BIGOT.  It\'s OK to be prejudiced, but not OK to be a Racist?  That is a meaningless distinction unless you happen to be prejudiced, and you\'re looking for some explanation for why you\'re not as evil as everyone believes you are.  That\'s sort of what Michael Richards was doing when he claimed that HE was not a racist.
 
I see very little difference in the severity of those terms, so it\'s not important that we didn\'t use exactly the right word.  Maybe it might be important to an English major know-it-all, but I don\'t think you are one of those.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 22, 2006, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: Coredweller
OK Dictionary Dan, why are you making such a big deal about what word we call him?  You act as if calling him a RACIST is much worse than calling him a PREJUDICED BIGOT.  It\'s OK to be prejudiced, but not OK to be a Racist?  That is a meaningless distinction unless you happen to be prejudiced, and you\'re looking for some explanation for why you\'re not as evil as everyone believes you are.  That\'s sort of what Michael Richards was doing when he claimed that HE was not a racist.
 
I see very little difference in the severity of those terms, so it\'s not important that we didn\'t use exactly the right word.  Maybe it might be important to an English major know-it-all, but I don\'t think you are one of those.

I was merely making a point man. I was just saying that racist and prejudice are different. Everyone dubs someone a racist as soon as they say something about another group of people, if its race or ethnicity. But people don\'t know that racist is actually ACTING on those beliefs that one race is better than another. I never heard Michael Richards in his rant that white people were better. Prejudice is merely just a negative feeling against a certain group of people. But people are also overlooking the fact that the heckler called him a cracker-ass motherfucker. Last I looked, a "cracker" is the white equivalent to "nigger". I get offended when people say that. I\'m not saying what he said was right. He was an idiot for saying it but I don\'t think he\'s a racist. I dont\' know why you are getting so defensive about this. You are saying prejudice and racist are the same word but they aren\'t. That\'s like saying a painting and a photograph are the same thing because they are a picture of something.

And I wasn\'t saying it was ok to be prejudiced. You\'re putting words in my mouth and saying shit that I never said. I was merely pointing out that most people have some prejudices agaisnt some group of people, no matter if they\'re talking about race, ethnicity or even just another school (like rival schools) or community. If you also looked at the definitions, prejudices can be positive too. People seem to only associate it with the bad although the positive can also be equally bad.

BTW, I\'m not an English major so don\'t say that shit. You don\'t know me so stop making opinions about me. I\'m a Communication Studies major at my college but I just happen to do well with grammar and shit. I don\'t know why considering I failed every grammar test I\'ve taken. That\'s no joke either. Freshman year of high school I did better on my pretest for grammar than the final (and I got a 60 on the pretest).

EDIT: luckee. I reread my posts and your right about the race card stuff. I was wrong about that thing and I admit it. But my other points about the differences of racism and prejudice stick.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Coredweller on November 22, 2006, 01:50:22 PM
I don\'t agree that "racist is actually ACTING on those beliefs" as you said. Acting on beliefs is not mentioned in the definition you posted above.
 
I\'m not saying "racist" and "prejudiced" are the same word. I\'m saying they have the same severity. I agree with you that they technically have different meanings, and it may have been wrong to call Michael Richards a racist. However, I don\'t understand why you\'re taking such a stand on these words. To me they both have very nasty meanings. You seem to believe that "racist" is worse than "prejudiced." I don\'t see it that way, and I think they are equally bad.
 
These two words are much closer to being synonyms than you seem to think.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 22, 2006, 01:55:07 PM
Quote from: Coredweller
I don\'t agree that "racist is actually ACTING on those beliefs" as you said. Acting on beliefs is not mentioned in the definition you posted above.
 
I\'m not saying "racist" and "prejudiced" are the same word. I\'m saying they have the same severity. I agree with you that they technically have different meanings, and it may have been wrong to call Michael Richards a racist. However, I don\'t understand why you\'re taking such a stand on these words. To me they both have very nasty meanings. You seem to believe that "racist" is worse than "prejudiced." I don\'t see it that way, and I think they are equally bad.
 
These two words are much closer to being synonyms than you seem to think.


I see your point. I guess the definitions vary on the person. I\'m not saying prejudices are good or anything but most people hold some form of prejudices.

I honestly don\'t see color when I talk to a person and when people start pulling the race card in situations (not like this but in other situations in the media and personal experiences) I feel just further separates the race boundaries. We are all humans and all have the same natural rights as everyone else. Who really cares if they\'re black, white, asian or hispanic. We\'re all humans that need to survive with each other\'s help.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 22, 2006, 02:23:52 PM
Quote
why are you making such a big deal about what word we call him?


Why are we making such a big deal about what word he called them?

How\'s this for an answer - it\'s over, who gives a f***. No one got hurt, he apologized and karma will be tanking his career moreso than it already was.

It\'s over.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: clips on November 22, 2006, 10:26:09 PM
^^^tru..no doubt...at the end of the day tho,..it\'s 2006 and nobody should be using that word...i think it\'s well known by now that any racial threads that are detrimental towards afri. americans,..i will most likely speak in defense of the said minority,...it\'s just that it\'s really hard to defend my people\'s when they are callin each other nigga on the regular,...and even tho me and my menz used the word alot back in my youth,....i don\'t use it at all anymore...

i happened to catch the oprah winfrey show awhile back when the movie "crash" was released..*good movie by the way*..:fro:...and they were interviewing the stars associated with the movie...long story short ludacris (spel) was on the show and they "the cast" was talking about how how black folk callin each-other nigga is setting them back, because of what the history is behind the word.....so they asked luda..."are you going to continue to use the "n" word knowing how hurtful and abusing it is?

His response was well when i say it, i don\'t mean it like that, and i\'ll probably continue to use it in my music...:banghead:...this is why we will always have these scenarios,...whether it\'s nigga or nigger,...it shouldn\'t be said at all....Michaels showed his true colors that night and it\'s official..he\'s an a**hole,...but black folk are just making the matter worse and confusing by continuing to greet each other like that...word now is that the afri. americans that were  called those names have some type of lawsuit, for pain and suffering..:rolleyes:....it\'s not that serious..i\'m sure they didn\'t lose sleep over that...

?It should be noted that micheals did perform there again the very next night...with no incidents of course...
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: QuDDus on November 23, 2006, 04:17:08 AM
Quote from: clips
^^^tru..no doubt...at the end of the day tho,..it\'s 2006 and nobody should be using that word...i think it\'s well known by now that any racial threads that are detrimental towards afri. americans,..i will most likely speak in defense of the said minority,...it\'s just that it\'s really hard to defend my people\'s when they are callin each other nigga on the regular,...and even tho me and my menz used the word alot back in my youth,....i don\'t use it at all anymore...

i happened to catch the oprah winfrey show awhile back when the movie "crash" was released..*good movie by the way*..:fro:...and they were interviewing the stars associated with the movie...long story short ludacris (spel) was on the show and they "the cast" was talking about how how black folk callin each-other nigga is setting them back, because of what the history is behind the word.....so they asked luda..."are you going to continue to use the "n" word knowing how hurtful and abusing it is?

His response was well when i say it, i don\'t mean it like that, and i\'ll probably continue to use it in my music...:banghead:...this is why we will always have these scenarios,...whether it\'s nigga or nigger,...it shouldn\'t be said at all....Michaels showed his true colors that night and it\'s official..he\'s an a**hole,...but black folk are just making the matter worse and confusing by continuing to greet each other like that...word now is that the afri. americans that were  called those names have some type of lawsuit, for pain and suffering..:rolleyes:....it\'s not that serious..i\'m sure they didn\'t lose sleep over that...

?It should be noted that micheals did perform there again the very next night...with no incidents of course...


Clips the fact is white people should not be worried about how african americans are communicating with eachother. What we say to eachother is between us. Not for another racist of people to try break down how a black person relates to another. And that word is only used with young african americans. It\'s a youth thing anyways. And that does not give white people or whom ever any reason to feel like they have the rite to say or determine if it should be used.

The word has nothing to do with white people. It\'s a term that is used with young blacks more than anything.  How a white person feels they have anything to say about how another race is using a word is beyond me.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bobs_Hardware on November 23, 2006, 04:23:24 AM
Quote
Much more fitting. Before you people call anyone a racist, learn what the fucking word means and chill on playing the race card.


Titan, please don\'t try and act intelligent, you\'re only making yourself look more stupid. Perhaps you should just stick to tedius, trite, one-line spam messages.

First of all, what Michael Richards said perfectly fits the description you\'ve just posted.

Quote
"Fifty years ago we\'d have you upside down with a f***ing fork up your ass."


Notice how he uses the word "we". This is in obvious reference to the entire white race, or at least those prejudiced against blacks. This is said in reference to a time when those who\'re prejudiced could get away with doing such things to black folk, and is meant to convey obvious consternation at the fact that "they" can no longer do this.

This, if taken literally (and not as the joke that it actually is), is a racist statement. Even by your definition. And if someone were to believe that they are his true feelings on the matter, then he is a racist. By definition.

And as Cored pointed out, the two are so close to being synonymous with eachother that you\'ve wasted everyones time bothering to point it out. The difference being that prejudice isn\'t race specific; one can be prejudiced against women, or vibrators, or some combination of the two (though Lord knows why).

Quote
Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: \'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist  /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist


Get a clue before you come in here acting all haughty, as though you know something.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bobs_Hardware on November 23, 2006, 04:31:25 AM
Quote
According to the two men who were targeted by the outburst, Frank McBride and Kyle Doss, they were merely ordering drinks after arriving late to the comedy club, and not heckling. The two men, represented by Gloria Allred, are planning on suing Richards in the near future. McBride and Doss also recently appeared on Hannity & Colmes to discuss their version of the incident. The two men did not accept Richards\' apology, with Doss stating “No, I think that apology was totally fake, it was forced. I feel like that was a career move. It wasn’t sincere.” [19]


From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Richards#The_Laugh_Factory_incident).

I get the feeling that these two people are going to soon start being looked upon with more disrespect than Richards. To think that his attack was completely unprovoked is too unbelievable. And a lawsuit? Come on..

Quote
Clips the fact is white people should not be worried about how african americans are communicating with eachother. What we say to eachother is between us.


Perhaps you only meant in reference to that oh-so-dreaded n word, but that seems like a really terrible attitude to have, and one that will only serve to exacerbate the current racial divide.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: mm on November 23, 2006, 05:19:43 AM
Quote
after arriving late to the comedy club
no way?!
:rofl:

Quote
What we say to eachother is between us.
oh, so you\'re for segregation?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 23, 2006, 07:51:17 AM
Quote
oh, so you\'re for segregation?


Thank you.

All this us versus them talk is just silly. As long as we continue to separate blacks from whites, this will happen. Our black friends in this thread always lead the way in these threads.

Words are just words. Not allowing people to say nigger isn\'t the answer. Treating it for what it actually is in 2006 should be the goal.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 23, 2006, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Eiksirf
Thank you.

All this us versus them talk is just silly. As long as we continue to separate blacks from whites, this will happen. Our black friends in this thread always lead the way in these threads.

Words are just words. Not allowing people to say nigger isn\'t the answer. Treating it for what it actually is in 2006 should be the goal.



Why in this day in age would someone want to call someone else a nigger?

ALso, dont give me that shit that words are just words b/c you know as well as I do that some words carry MUCH more weight than others and can infact hurt and piss people off to no extent.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 23, 2006, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: QuDDus
Clips the fact is white people should not be worried about how african americans are communicating with eachother. What we say to eachother is between us. Not for another racist of people to try break down how a black person relates to another. And that word is only used with young african americans. It\'s a youth thing anyways. And that does not give white people or whom ever any reason to feel like they have the rite to say or determine if it should be used.

The word has nothing to do with white people. It\'s a term that is used with young blacks more than anything.  How a white person feels they have anything to say about how another race is using a word is beyond me.


I think I\'m gonna have to agree with mm and Eik. This sounds like total segregation thing. Why shouldn\'t white people care? We\'re all humans in this society and putting up racial barriers like this is only putting progress back in terms of racism and prejudice.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Bozco on November 23, 2006, 09:48:12 AM
Whats new?  Quddus has been a racist for quite some time.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 23, 2006, 11:24:52 AM
Quote from: luckee
Why in this day in age would someone want to call someone else a nigger?

ALso, dont give me that shit that words are just words b/c you know as well as I do that some words carry MUCH more weight than others and can infact hurt and piss people off to no extent.


My point is if you can let go of that baggage, the word is no longer offensive. Let it go and racism dies.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 23, 2006, 11:28:22 AM
Gezz, and i wasn\'t saying the same thing a few posts ago?!

Words get power because people give it to them. No matter what the word, the only reason it offends is because people give it the power to.



and bob, gezz get a life dood. You think to much into shit.. for f@#K sake man!!
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 23, 2006, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: Eiksirf
My point is if you can let go of that baggage, the word is no longer offensive. Let it go and racism dies.


I was hoping for someone to say something like this.

While all prominent black ppl dont share this view, many do.

Why do you think black people started using the word nigga? An attempt to take the power away from the word. Only thing that happened form that was latinos using just as much and white ppl crying about why they cant...


If nigger or nigga ceased to exsist as of tomorrow...racism still wouldnt die...dont be naive.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 23, 2006, 02:35:32 PM
Unfortunately, racism will always be a problem. Unless, however, like what happened in that episode of south park when people had mixed all the races into one hairless race. Who knows, maybe something like that will happen in human evolution. I mean, I\'m mixed blooded. I\'m two nationalities and part Native American. So who knows if this happens or not one day and racism will truely die. But I\'m sure those people of the future would then find something else to hate on people. Why can\'t we just get along?
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Samwise on November 23, 2006, 03:39:26 PM
Nigger Nigger Nigger
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Jumpman on November 23, 2006, 07:41:43 PM
Cause black people clearly cheat in basketball.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 23, 2006, 08:19:58 PM
sooner or later, its only going to be mixed people running around.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 23, 2006, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: luckee
I was hoping for someone to say something like this.

While all prominent black ppl dont share this view, many do.

Why do you think black people started using the word nigga? An attempt to take the power away from the word. Only thing that happened form that was latinos using just as much and white ppl crying about why they cant...


If nigger or nigga ceased to exsist as of tomorrow...racism still wouldnt die...dont be naive.



i\'m pretty sure he was referring to the word losing its racism powers rather than racism all together.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 23, 2006, 10:51:37 PM
well, ill wait for him to tell me instead of relying on someone speaking for them. :)
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Eiksirf on November 24, 2006, 10:22:24 AM
Let me know what he says.






I hear ya about the word losing its power thing. Your synopsis of the outcome is wrong, in my opinion.

I\'ve heard "nigga" 6 ways to Sunday listening to rap music, and I could give two shits about it. But I guess not being racist and also having a sense of humor, I get a pass on the whole race issue.

You\'re right though that racism wouldn\'t die if that one word lost its meaning. But combined with all the other progress out there, it\'d be a nice step forward. We\'re halfway through that stride all ready, and people like me are proof of that.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: luckee on November 24, 2006, 11:05:33 AM
call me a pessimist, i just dont see prejudice, racism, and bigotry going anywhere ever. As long as there are differences someone will exploit and belittle.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Titan on November 24, 2006, 12:13:44 PM
Quote from: luckee
call me a pessimist, i just dont see prejudice, racism, and bigotry going anywhere ever. As long as there are differences someone will exploit and belittle.


Unless all races one day mix together and humans evolve into one race, I don\'t see racism going anywhere either. There\'s always some group of ignorant assholes that will hate on another group of people just because of the color of their skin.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Viper_Fujax on November 24, 2006, 12:21:10 PM
Quote from: luckee
call me a pessimist, i just dont see prejudice, racism, and bigotry going anywhere ever. As long as there are differences someone will exploit and belittle.


at this point, it\'s easy to say this is true. But weve come a LONG way from the civil war, and that was really only 140 years. Not that long ago when you look at the big picture.

It\'s going to take a long time, and i dont doubt there will always be a small percentage of racists (seeing as there always is a small percentage of some dick-wad group), but i see them getting so small that they have no impact.

But some other social injustice will probably pop up.
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: CHIZZY on November 24, 2006, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: luckee
sooner or later, its only going to be mixed people running around.


I\'m doing my part.. my daughter is german, scottish, polish, ukrainian, &japanese... cute lil mutt....
Title: Kramer (Seinfeld show) goes off the deep end
Post by: Ashford on November 27, 2006, 11:29:28 AM
"In the future, we\'ll all be a mix of Indian & Chinese. They\'re the 2 biggest populations in the world so sooner or later, we\'re gonna hump you."

~Russell Peters