Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GmanJoe on October 19, 2007, 08:54:47 AM
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 19, 2007, 08:54:47 AM
Attacks camera crew filming a bunch of....I dunno....Star Wars fans?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 19, 2007, 09:03:11 AM
^^^ why didn\'t he just gracefully walk off into the sunset?...:laughing:...:rofl:....he got that ass whooped!....:laughing:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 19, 2007, 09:12:10 AM
I see SwifDi\'s future.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 19, 2007, 09:19:22 AM
nah. Swifdi doesn\'t look like that person to me, not even one bit. Again, that guy reminds me of this racist coward teacher, in a lot of ways...scary isn\'t it.
For the rarest time Gmanjoe, you posted a videoclip that actually worthy of watching and it does makes my day as it does reduce my frustration that I am having recently.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 19, 2007, 09:28:23 AM
Quote from: Paul2
nah. Swifdi doesn\'t look like that person to me, not even one bit. Again, that guy reminds me of this racist coward teacher, in a lot of ways...scary isn\'t it.
For the rarest time Gmanjoe, you posted a videoclip that actually worthy of watching and it does makes my day as it does reduce my frustration that I am having recently.
Is this you?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a2a_1192741838
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 19, 2007, 10:02:30 AM
lol. i don\'t drink coffee though. But its funny and sad at the same time. I can understand why he\'s so frustrated though. having a presentation in 10 minutes to be ruin by spilling coffee on his laptop. but at least, it seems like he\'s enjoying camera time that he\'s having.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 19, 2007, 10:03:57 AM
I was 2 for 2 with Paul today. I might get lucky.
*stashes vaseline in pocket*
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Coredweller on October 19, 2007, 02:23:31 PM
Ah the joys of Hollywood Blvd.
I live here and it\'s probably been years since I\'ve set foot on that sidewalk.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 20, 2007, 01:21:58 AM
Even though I hate Ebaums, this video is just lollerskates:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/39067
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Cerberus on October 20, 2007, 02:37:28 AM
samuel l jackson has really let himself go eh?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 20, 2007, 08:23:22 AM
that laptop one was great. I couldn\'t help but laugh my ass off.
He could have just removed the harddrive but eh.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 20, 2007, 12:29:13 PM
not many people are into computers nor do they know how to install or uninstall computer hardware though.
btw, funny video clip samwise.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on October 20, 2007, 02:58:43 PM
That really was sad.I think that person has a real problem though. A real christian would never use that langauge while sharing the gospel. And yes i am a christian and proud of it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 20, 2007, 03:15:44 PM
Fred,
This is just my suggestions here but you don\'t have to take my words for it. up to you here...
Who here are skeptical about religions? I know I am. In my life experience, I find people people who aren\'t too religious seem more real, open minded, happier, lay back, and more like themselves.
compare to people who are too religious in my experience i have seen, not all but some that are too religious seems too fake, and have this "holier than thou" attitude. some doesn\'t even practice what they preach and are less ethical than those who are less religious or even athiest.
so, again up to you fred, maybe you can cut back down on your belief and see if your life does improve. who knows, doing something that are helpful, authentic, and meaningful like try to get your health back together might do.
Because trusting your religion seems to have no effect on your recovery so far.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on October 20, 2007, 04:14:29 PM
Paul you don\'t know the first thing about me, i can honestly say trusting god is the one thing that\'s gotten me this far. Im sorry if you have had a bad experience in what you call religion. Perhaps if you opened your heart a bit & you can trust ME on this, you will find it\'s not at all about religion. But about a personal relationship.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: ##RaCeR## on October 20, 2007, 05:09:44 PM
^^
Exactly. True Christianity is not a religion, its relationship and faith.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 20, 2007, 05:30:34 PM
Quote from: Paul2
Fred,
This is just my suggestions here but you don\'t have to take my words for it. up to you here...
Who here are skeptical about religions? I know I am. In my life experience, I find people people who aren\'t too religious seem more real, open minded, happier, lay back, and more like themselves.
compare to people who are too religious in my experience i have seen, not all but some that are too religious seems too fake, and have this "holier than thou" attitude. some doesn\'t even practice what they preach and are less ethical than those who are less religious or even athiest.
so, again up to you fred, maybe you can cut back down on your belief and see if your life does improve. who knows, doing something that are helpful, authentic, and meaningful like try to get your health back together might do.
Because trusting your religion seems to have no effect on your recovery so far.
completely agree.
Yay for agnosticism...(not saying you are..I am). All signs in life, one especially i dont want to get into, makes me not believe in any diety. But still the fact i dont know sh*t about anything in life is the only reason im still agnostic and not an atheist
and you could say that about all religions racer. It\'s all the same stuff when it boils down to the basics. It\'s all the details and practices that makes people think theyre right and all the others are wrong
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 21, 2007, 04:55:25 AM
Quote from: fre4d4
Paul you don\'t know the first thing about me, i can honestly say trusting god is the one thing that\'s gotten me this far. Im sorry if you have had a bad experience in what you call religion. Perhaps if you opened your heart a bit & you can trust ME on this, you will find it\'s not at all about religion. But about a personal relationship.
why should he have to do anything. Why should anyone for that matter.
i doubt god had anything to do with how far you\'ve gotten to this point, but whatever works for you.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 21, 2007, 06:20:48 AM
Let\'s not go there with the religious stuff shall we?....I believe in god and i don\'t believe that we just happened to magically appear from a great explosion...how did humans evolve? from the simplest of cell evolution?....No...something greater or someone greater had something to do with it...say what you will but i\'d rather die believing in god than die and not believing....and when we all die and if god doesn\'t exist, then you can say "see i told you so"...;)
But i\'m not the type that forces my beliefs on anyone....and i\'m far from perfect and i do hate when religious folk try to act or be better than the average person, i\'ll tell the next religious person straight up..look i still like to go the clubs, i still like to drink and have fun,....there are alot of things that i do that some religious folk would probably have an heart attack over, but one thing i don\'t do is force my beliefs on anyone or look down on anyone that doesn\'t believe in god....
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 21, 2007, 06:47:45 AM
Quote from: clips
i don\'t believe that we just happened to magically appear from a great explosion...
But you do believe we just happened to magically appear from a great divine power and that all mankind comes from just two (white? ;)) people. :D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 21, 2007, 06:54:50 AM
Quote from: Samwise
But you do believe we just happened to magically appear from a great divine power and that all mankind comes from just two (black ;)) people. :D
fixed...;)...and you believe that we magically appeared from a great explosion...naked?....then why out of all the planets in our solar system is earth the only planet with intelligent life?...why doesn\'t all of the planets have intelligent life since all the said planets have generally been created around the same time?...this argument can go both ways and nobody knows the answer....you believe what you will and vice versa...i\'m right you\'re wrong...etc...;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 21, 2007, 07:03:36 AM
I know we\'ll never agree, I was just having some fun. ;)
I choose to put my faith in science and you can put yours in magic, I mean, God.*
* Still pullin\' your leg. :D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 21, 2007, 07:10:07 AM
Quote from: Samwise
* Still pullin\' your leg. :D
HEY WATCH IT!...yer\' pullin\' the wrong LEG!....;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Cerberus on October 21, 2007, 07:15:23 AM
I went to a CofE school, I had that religious shit crammed down my throat 6 hours a day, 7 days a week, and it\'s been instrumental in my agnostic outlook on life.
I\'d like to think there\'s a god, or something after this life, but I have no proof, nor have I seen evidence to equate to a "miracle" attributed to some greater being.
I it often brings a smile to my face when I see people (often teenagers, or people in their early 20\'s) who say things like "but he does exist, if you just open your heart, you will see the proof", or "he does exist, and though you still doubt him, he still loves you"
that stuffmakes me smirk, because it\'s the same rhetoric bullshit I had to endure in school.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 21, 2007, 07:15:29 AM
Quote from: clips
HEY WATCH IT!...yer\' pullin\' the wrong LEG!....;)
It\'s not my fault you black folk have such big... legs...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 21, 2007, 07:16:52 AM
Quote from: clips
fixed...;)...and you believe that we magically appeared from a great explosion...naked?....then why out of all the planets in our solar system is earth the only planet with intelligent life?...why doesn\'t all of the planets have intelligent life since all the said planets have generally been created around the same time?...this argument can go both ways and nobody knows the answer....you believe what you will and vice versa...i\'m right you\'re wrong...etc...;)
i didn\'t know you\'ve been to all these planets, what are they like?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 21, 2007, 07:29:39 AM
Quote from: clips
fixed...;)...and you believe that we magically appeared from a great explosion...naked?....then why out of all the planets in our solar system is earth the only planet with intelligent life?...why doesn\'t all of the planets have intelligent life since all the said planets have generally been created around the same time?...this argument can go both ways and nobody knows the answer....you believe what you will and vice versa...i\'m right you\'re wrong...etc...;)
Earth is the only planet that could have intelligent life. Its the only planet we know about that can sustain life. Its got good atmosphere, water, not too hot or cold. It has all the ingredients to make life thrive. They do think that there could be life on Titan, one of Jupiters moons (I think...could be Saturn...i dunno. Didn\'t pay attention during astronomy).
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 21, 2007, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: fre4d4
...it\'s not at all about religion. But about a personal relationship.
what kind of personal relationship is this...as if you want to date this god of your imagination, wouldn\'t that make you wife jealous? you do know she just got a car accident. j/k:D
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
why should he have to do anything. Why should anyone for that matter.
completely agree with you there.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 21, 2007, 12:15:52 PM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
i didn\'t know you\'ve been to all these planets, what are they like?
I guess they don\'t teach science over there eh?
Quote from: Titan
Earth is the only planet that could have intelligent life. Its the only planet we know about that can sustain life. Its got good atmosphere, water, not too hot or cold. It has all the ingredients to make life thrive. They do think that there could be life on Titan, one of Jupiters moons (I think...could be Saturn...i dunno. Didn\'t pay attention during astronomy).
But why is earth the only planet that turned out that way?...so when the great explosion happened, all the ingredients necessary for life purged itself perfectly on earth?...riiiight.....and while the earth was forming, millions of years later humans just formed from the simplest of cells?...history shows that the dinosaurs were here even longer than humans,...so how did the humans just magically appear outta no-where?.....
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 21, 2007, 12:28:06 PM
eath is the only planet that coudl have intelligent life *in our solar system*
i dont know if it\'s easy to comprehend, but as many grains of sand as there are on all of the beaches on earth is about the amount of stars in the universe. Each of those stars has planets. The problem is that the closest star is 4 light years, so it takes FOREVER to get information from that one, close star system.
So i have no doubt that there are other planets with intelligent life. The problem is the vastness of the universe makes it impossible to get any convincing information, let alone travel. If it is, it\'s something we can\'t even comprehend, and we wont any time soon.
And Europa is a little more likely than titan to have life, mainly because europa could have a lot of water underneath it\'s crust..
and why in our solar system we\'re the only ones is simple. Past mars, the only thing that was able to form are gas giants. That pretty much narrows down that life has to be a certain distance from the sun. Not just for heating reasons, but for formation reasons. Venus could\'ve had life if it didnt have it\'s insanely high greenhouse. I doubt mars ever had any life even though some scientists talk about how the surface has signs of past lakes and stuff, but there\'s other proof that\'s more convincing that they were formed for another reason. But there\'s a chance there\'s life in the poles since there\'s life in horrible conditions in antarctica...slim chance though
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 21, 2007, 02:36:05 PM
How many fucking threads are you assholes going to turn into religious debates? Shut the fuck up already.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 21, 2007, 02:50:43 PM
fred started it...lol
who cares, if you dont want to read about it, dont click the thread. Beats having no posts
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 21, 2007, 02:56:57 PM
Or just stop being a cunt face.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 21, 2007, 03:10:55 PM
hurrrrr
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 21, 2007, 03:23:00 PM
:p
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on October 21, 2007, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
fred started it...lol
who cares, if you dont want to read about it, dont click the thread. Beats having no posts
FINE IM ENDING IT.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 21, 2007, 08:07:01 PM
Quote from: clips
But why is earth the only planet that turned out that way?...so when the great explosion happened, all the ingredients necessary for life purged itself perfectly on earth?...riiiight.....and while the earth was forming, millions of years later humans just formed from the simplest of cells?...history shows that the dinosaurs were here even longer than humans,...so how did the humans just magically appear outta no-where?.....
It\'s called evolution my little love chocolate ;) Things just evolved over time. I don\'t have all the answers and neither does religion. I have my own beliefs on how things happened and you have your own. We can both go back and forth but at the end of the day, I\'m still right ;) j/k :)
Here\'s how I think it happened. A definite date cannot be determined because the big bang happened so long ago, i would say billions if not trillions of years ago. In that time, the gasses through natural physics formed together into spheres through the forces of gravity. In the course of billions of years, compounds formed or fell onto the planets (in the form of asteroids, dust) forming the minerals. As ice collided with the earth, it melted and formed the oceans. And being close to the sun, it was the perfect temperature for life to form. I seriously think like started randomly and by accident. That everything was so perfect, that it happened. I feel life can happen anywhere else too. Like Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park said, "life will find a way". I think things in the universe just happen and finds their own path. If there is a God, I feel it is the forces that perpetuate this. Everything is so complex, no one will know the answer and every person just needs to find their own beliefs. I just don\'t think any religion or person has it right. I know what I just said is very confusing. I\'m trying to pull it from memory. All the theory is out there. I remember learning about it in astronomy and about all the astrophysics involved. Its hard to understand and I really don\'t know what I\'m talking about either, lol.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 21, 2007, 08:09:47 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
i dont know if it\'s easy to comprehend, but as many grains of sand as there are on all of the beaches on earth is about the amount of stars in the universe. Each of those stars has planets. The problem is that the closest star is 4 light years, so it takes FOREVER to get information from that one, close star system.
Not all the stars have planets. There are a lot of stars out htere that are just born. However, I would say a majority of stars do have planets. Wouldn\'t say its a vast majority but I would definitely say 60+%
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 21, 2007, 08:32:42 PM
60% of all the stars in the universe is still an insane number. There are roughly 100 billion stars in a galaxy. Now look at this picture, that was shot in no particular direction by the hubble space telescope...was just some empty looking area, and we wanted to see what was in deep space.
life is definitly rare...but rare in something liek that is still a very large number
and clips, the big bang isnt an explosion. It was the start of the expansion of the universe. And technically, explosions did make us. A star exploded, releasing all of the elements it\'s made of (which happens to be mostly hydrogen, which happens to be our most abundant element). A new star form\'s in its place and planets are made of all the excess rock/metals/gas that don\'t get sucked in by the star, those rocks/gasses/metals form the planets. So we\'re made of star stuff.
Can look up how star formations/solar systems form to get some better wording and evidence than from a college student that took a few classes, but this stuff is more for sure than evolution, which we definitly don\'t have nailed down but I think we have the right idea.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 21, 2007, 10:07:25 PM
Quote from: clips
I guess they don\'t teach science over there eh?
But why is earth the only planet that turned out that way?...so when the great explosion happened, all the ingredients necessary for life purged itself perfectly on earth?...riiiight.....and while the earth was forming, millions of years later humans just formed from the simplest of cells?...history shows that the dinosaurs were here even longer than humans,...so how did the humans just magically appear outta no-where?.....
they teach plenty of science, thats why i know lifeforms don\'t have to be carbon based. Untill humans themselves go to all these planets, i don\'t care what a satalite or probe records. If there are lifeforms on these planets, i wouldn\'t be surprised if they had the technology to throw off ours. Our technology is very young.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 21, 2007, 11:16:50 PM
Quote
If there are lifeforms on these planets, i wouldn\'t be surprised if they had the technology to throw off ours. Our technology is very young.
Our universe is also very young. The earth is what...4.5 billion years old? Our universe is around 15-20 billion years old. In the span of the universe, the chances of that just do not seem very high. There might be intelligent life elsewhere, but even if there is, it doesn\'t mean they\'re an insanely advanced species. For the length it takes solar systems and planets to form and also the conditions in which make life possible, that makes things even less likely. Carbon-based or not, it doesn\'t really matter. The earth\'s size, our location in the solar system (which is just the right distance to neither burn up nor freeze us to death), our moon, Jupiter (which takes most of the asteroid hits because of its mass), etc.
Also, if we were anywhere else in the Milky Way, we would not even be able to see out of our own galaxy...and that would absolutely suck.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 21, 2007, 11:22:38 PM
Quote from: Evi
Also, if we were anywhere else in the Milky Way, we would not even be able to see out of our own galaxy...and that would absolutely suck.
really. i\'ve never heard that. Is it because the stars are spaced out enough that we can see out?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 02:08:45 AM
Yes. It\'s very convenient. :thumb: Go Go Gadget random earthly placement!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on October 22, 2007, 07:41:35 AM
Hey your entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.
THIS THE LAST THING I AM SAYING ON THE SUBJECT, IF the rest of you wish to keep arguing the subject knock your self out. Otherwise im finished and moving on to something else.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 22, 2007, 08:13:28 AM
What the hell did you guys do with this thread???
It\'s about an insane guy getting pounded for being a douche.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 22, 2007, 08:25:19 AM
well, that was pretty much it until Fred brings religion into it, commenting about that guy preaching.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 22, 2007, 08:38:23 AM
clips had a hand in it too by bringing up the Big Bang Theory (which was first theorized by a Catholic priest) and the Let There Be Light comparison.
They\'re basically the same. :D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 11:04:17 AM
Yay for derailing!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 01:23:09 PM
Quote from: fre4d4
Hey your entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.
you\'re very subtly condescending.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on October 22, 2007, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
you\'re very subtly condescending.
Lets just drop this whole thing & move on.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 22, 2007, 03:45:18 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
60% of all the stars in the universe is still an insane number. There are roughly 100 billion stars in a galaxy. Now look at this picture, that was shot in no particular direction by the hubble space telescope...was just some empty looking area, and we wanted to see what was in deep space.
life is definitly rare...but rare in something liek that is still a very large number
and clips, the big bang isnt an explosion. It was the start of the expansion of the universe. And technically, explosions did make us. A star exploded, releasing all of the elements it\'s made of (which happens to be mostly hydrogen, which happens to be our most abundant element). A new star form\'s in its place and planets are made of all the excess rock/metals/gas that don\'t get sucked in by the star, those rocks/gasses/metals form the planets. So we\'re made of star stuff.
Can look up how star formations/solar systems form to get some better wording and evidence than from a college student that took a few classes, but this stuff is more for sure than evolution, which we definitly don\'t have nailed down but I think we have the right idea.
Few classes? One class which I showed up stoned to half the time, lol. But seriously, I just have a broad understanding since the class didn\'t go too much into depth. More of what I know I learned from the History Channel which is still all theory. But I do agree with your post. Only comment I can make is that what was shown on the Hubble was from billions and billions and billions of years ago. Those objects and galaxies may very well not even exist anymore. And back to the 60% thing, I bullshitted that number but was just trying to make a point. Even if only 1% of stars had planets, out of 100 billion, that\'s still an insane amount of planets that could have life. Saying there isn\'t another planet with life is kinda ignorant in my opinion.
Anyone else hear the theory that life actually originated on another planet and came here in the form of bacteria? I kinda believe that but then again I don\'t. It makes sense. There is bacteria that can survive a trip like that and evolve and if it somehow got on a meteor and came to earth on like an ice asteroid or something, it could have survived. But then again, I also believe life evolved from a primortial soup. Who knows. There are so many possibilities and I think its impossible for humans to comprehend the beginning of life.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:14:34 PM
I was talking about me with the whole college student comment. And i know you bullshitted the number, i just bullshitted it back to make the point that rare is still a lot.
And i heard of that theory too. I dont think it was as simple as something with bacteria landing and starting life. There\'s the idea that life has begun many times since they\'ve proved it can happen relatively quickly. Since the earth was pummeled with asteroids in its making, theres a high probability that life had begun, got hit with a large asteroid and caused global destruction, settled down, life begun, got hit with another asteroid, etc etc
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 22, 2007, 04:16:18 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
I was talking about me with the whole college student comment. And i know you bullshitted the number, i just bullshitted it back to make the point that rare is still a lot.
And i heard of that theory too. I dont think it was as simple as something with bacteria landing and starting life. There\'s the idea that life has begun many times since they\'ve proved it can happen relatively quickly. Since the earth was pummeled with asteroids in its making, theres a high probability that life had begun, got hit with a large asteroid and caused global destruction, settled down, life begun, got hit with another asteroid, etc etc
Like life began, a mass extinction and began again?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 04:18:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:19:34 PM
yea, should\'ve happened a bunch of times since asteroids are extremely far apart from eachother. Just during the formation of the solar system theres a lot more crap flying around than there is now, which is why it\'s not anywhere near as common
what\'s freaky though, is that it is still pretty common. They had that one in chicago a few years back, but the freaky one is the one that hit peru a couple months ago. It was in the mountains so it wasnt a big deal, but it still made a huge impact. imagine if that hit downtown somewhere
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 22, 2007, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
yea, should\'ve happened a bunch of times since asteroids are extremely far apart from eachother. Just during the formation of the solar system theres a lot more crap flying around than there is now, which is why it\'s not anywhere near as common
what\'s freaky though, is that it is still pretty common. They had that one in chicago a few years back, but the freaky one is the one that hit peru a couple months ago. It was in the mountains so it wasnt a big deal, but it still made a huge impact. imagine if that hit downtown somewhere
Problem I see with that is that say an asteriod hits once every 1 million years that does that, or even once every 64 million years in the last case, it still doesn\'t give enough time for life to start from scratch and evolve. Evolution doesn\'t happen that fast.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:23:20 PM
not necessarily things long enough to evolve, just bacteria that we would consider life if we saw it on another planet
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 04:25:19 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
not necessarily things long enough to evolve, just bacteria that we would consider life if we saw it on another planet
That doesn\'t make any sense.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:29:59 PM
Aight, so life has to start as tiny ass microbes. And in controlled situations (that\'s what makes it not so for sure), they were able to start life almost immediatley after getting all of the right conditions, which earth has.
So right when earth got all of its right ingrediants, life should form as tiny microbes very quickly. However, large asteroids still hit earth, big enough to wipe off any microbe life that existed. Then everything settles down (im oversimplifing it) and the conditions are still right for life so it should sprout up again very quickly. Rinse and repeat
these microbes arent evolving, and turning into fish. Theyre just the most basic forms of life getting wiped out as asteroids hit, but coming back when everything settles down
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 04:34:47 PM
Super dooper accelerated evolution?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:37:13 PM
More like, no time for evolution to play a big enough part in making any really complex life
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
More like, no time for evolution to play a big enough part in making any really complex life
Google Cambrian Explosion.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 04:45:23 PM
exactly.
"Prior to around 580 million years ago, organisms were on the whole simple, comprised of individual cells occasionally organised into colonies"
The cambrain explosion took time, which the earth didnt have when ginormous asteroids was hitting it and causing global destruction
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 22, 2007, 04:56:41 PM
That all just doesn\'t make any sense to me. I feel evolution is a slow and long drawn out process.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 05:01:52 PM
thats exactly what i\'m saying. Because it was long and drawn out, complex life could not form/evolve. However, it\'s been tested that the beginnings of life start out almost immediately when the conditions are right.
It\'s probably my lack of being able to explain it. Only reason I understand it is because i heard a professor explain it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 22, 2007, 05:04:30 PM
you guys and your theories are way over my head. I am lost, but its getting interesting. so continue as you were.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 22, 2007, 05:21:46 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
thats exactly what i\'m saying. Because it was long and drawn out, complex life could not form/evolve. However, it\'s been tested that the beginnings of life start out almost immediately when the conditions are right.
It\'s probably my lack of being able to explain it. Only reason I understand it is because i heard a professor explain it.
It\'s been...tested? Tested how? And what sources do you have for this information? This is all a bunch of theorizing.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 22, 2007, 05:33:53 PM
Im more reiterating what my professor said. And theorizing might even be too strong of a word, it\'s probably still a hypothesis, meaning it doesnt have enough proof to call it a theory.
I still find it very possible. Doesn\'t really change too much if it\'s true or not.
We\'ll never really figure out how life started. Just another one of those things we can\'t explain like what was before the big bang.
found a reliable link talking about it: http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/life.html
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 22, 2007, 07:09:45 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
thats exactly what i\'m saying. Because it was long and drawn out, complex life could not form/evolve. However, it\'s been tested that the beginnings of life start out almost immediately when the conditions are right.
It\'s probably my lack of being able to explain it. Only reason I understand it is because i heard a professor explain it.
I understand what you are saying and I seriously doubt it. What professor said it? I usually approach theory like that critically. Just because a prof said it, doesn\'t make it true.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 22, 2007, 07:56:20 PM
It\'s a monkey house in here! (Day of the Dead reference)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 22, 2007, 08:04:39 PM
Quote from: GmanJoe
clips had a hand in it too by bringing up the Big Bang Theory (which was first theorized by a Catholic priest) and the Let There Be Light comparison.
They\'re basically the same. :D
BWAHAHA!....*sinister laughing*.....:stirthepot:.....seriously tho,..i believe that there are other forms of life on other planets...it has to be,... i can\'t believe that throughout the entire universe that we alone are the only forms of intelligent life, but i also agree with Evi in that just because there might be other intelligent lifeforms out there, it doesn\'t necessarily mean that they are waaay more advanced than we are, it could very well be quite the opposite.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Joker on October 22, 2007, 08:07:43 PM
I know this thread is already past the stars / galaxies discussion and what not BUT the Hubble Ultra Deep Field never fails to amaze me
and no I don\'t know whats up with the Numa Numa shit in the middle.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 22, 2007, 08:33:52 PM
that vid pretty much sums up my idea that earth being the only planet with life is pretty much a retarded idea.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 12:39:08 AM
I got a theory of my own. I think life is not something that exists in reality, but it is just an idea, the processes in our brains "telling" us it is real. When you think about it, life in itself is nothing more than a couple of chemical and physical processes combined. Just like how a mountain eroding, or salt dissolving in water are processes. How is life any different from any of those processes? This way, shouldn\'t we have to call an eroding mountain "life" too?
One might say, that life has the ability to choose it\'s path, or have a "self" if you will. But is this actually true? I would have to say no. Our brain "decides" for us what we\'re gonna do. This in itself is what causes you to think you decide for yourself. However the brain is formed by those same processes I was talking about earlier. Our existence is nothing more than the sum of these processes...
It\'s hard for me to explain this clearly, but I hope atleast someone gets my point...
discuss
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 12:45:51 AM
I get what you\'re saying, and it\'s definitly hard to define what life is. Looking for life on other planets raises that exact question. It seems like one of those things thats like \'if it\'s life, well know it when we see it.\' kinda like porn...
anyway, I think we\'re the only beings on earth with the mental capacity to make those choices your talking about..probably monkies too since theyre amazingly smart. But the majority of animals, i think, react purely on instinct, so they dont really have a choice in what they do.
I think the best description is something that eats and poops,lol. or at least digests and processes things to survive, which includes plants and microbes. Also leaves out the mountain eroding
It\'s definitly hard to define what life is though.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 23, 2007, 12:55:52 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
I get what you\'re saying, and it\'s definitly hard to define what life is. Looking for life on other planets raises that exact question. It seems like one of those things thats like \'if it\'s life, well know it when we see it.\' kinda like porn...
anyway, I think we\'re the only beings on earth with the mental capacity to make those choices your talking about..probably monkies too since theyre amazingly smart. But the majority of animals, i think, react purely on instinct, so they dont really have a choice in what they do.
I think the best description is something that eats and poops,lol. or at least digests and processes things to survive, which includes plants and microbes. Also leaves out the mountain eroding
It\'s definitly hard to define what life is though.
bs, i think all creatures decide things. My dogs are examples of this, they choose to do things. Hell, i can see there little brains ticking over when they\'re in the process of thinking of doing something. I do agree that there are creatures that do decide on things and things that don\'t. Bugs being instinct mainly creatures, but if u study any animal long enough you can see they make decisions all the time.
My attitude to life is basically something that is self aware. A mountain is not.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 01:00:52 AM
By self aware, do you mean makes decisions? or aware of their existence? because those instinctual bugs dont have either of those.
And ur right that there\'s thoughts in other animals too besides us and monkies..it\'s late,lol.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:09:42 AM
I think you are missing a part of my point. You think humans (and monkees) have the ability to make their own decisions. I keep hearing that from a lot of people. However, I think that is not true. Every "decision" we make is the product of our brain at work. But because the brain is formed naturally, it\'s not actually you who\'s making the decisions, but it\'s just processes at work. These processes are all perfectly well predictable, the same way as it is predictable that if you, for instance, heat up wood to a certain temperature it will start burning. The life you see all around you, being it human or rats or whatever, it is just the product of these processes. When you study the human brain and compare it to any animals brain, you\'ll find out they are pretty much the same. the only reason we are smarter is that our cortex is relatively larger, giving us the ability to do more sophisticated things. people often confuse their believes with free choice. to many people the thought of not being able to choose for themselves is too frightening, so they\'ll choose to think otherwise.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:12:03 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
My attitude to life is basically something that is self aware. A mountain is not.
so then tell me, what actually is "self"? what makes you, you?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:18:59 AM
I found a quote by Daniel Clement Dennett, a famous philisofer, whose views closely resemble mine. I hope he is better able to make my point clear then I am myself:
The first stable conclusion I reached … was that the only thing brains could do was to approximate the responsivity to meanings that we presuppose in our everyday mentalistic discourse. When mechanical push comes to shove, a brain was always going to do what it was caused to do by current, local, mechanical circumstances, whatever it ought to do, whatever a God\'s-eye view might reveal about the actual meaning of its current states. But over the long haul, brains could be designed — by evolutionary processes — to do the right thing (from the point of view of meaning) with high reliability. … rains are syntactic engines that can mimic the competence of semantic engines. … The appreciation of meanings — their discrimination and delectation — is central to our vision of consciousness, but this conviction that I, on the inside, deal directly with meanings turns out to be something rather like a benign \'user-illusion.\'
– Daniel Dennett, Brainchildren
You should really wiki this guy, he has some really interesting points...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 01:20:42 AM
Quote from: politiepet
I think you are missing a part of my point. You think humans (and monkees) have the ability to make their own decisions. I keep hearing that from a lot of people. However, I think that is not true. Every "decision" we make is the product of our brain at work. But because the brain is formed naturally, it\'s not actually you who\'s making the decisions, but it\'s just processes at work. These processes are all perfectly well predictable, the same way as it is predictable that if you, for instance, heat up wood to a certain temperature it will start burning. The life you see all around you, being it human or rats or whatever, it is just the product of these processes. When you study the human brain and compare it to any animals brain, you\'ll find out they are pretty much the same. the only reason we are smarter is that our cortex is relatively larger, giving us the ability to do more sophisticated things. people often confuse their believes with free choice. to many people the thought of not being able to choose for themselves is too frightening, so they\'ll choose to think otherwise.
I think that\'s all too hypothetical, out of the box thinking. I\'ve thought to myself \'maybe i think i have choices out of instinct.\' But then i go back to thinking, not so much.
And i dont think predicting our behavior is easy. Maybe im confused on what you mean by \'processes\' but human behavior is very erradic. The best we can do is make generalizations on how people should act, but that doesnt mean that they will. For instance, do we do things out of nature or nurture? It\'s both because part of it is genetic and instinct, but because of our ability to think, nurture plays a huge part in how we decide things.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:31:00 AM
by processes I mean the process of salt dissolving and the like. The most basic of things. everything around you interacts with one another. it is all perfectly predictable. When salt comes into touch with water you know it is going to dissolve. Just like when you can know certain things in your brain, your body, everywhere will react in a predictable manner. So even the fact that I\'m typing this right now is not a product of my free will. It\'s because everything has acted in a predictable manner, through which the outcome, unavoidably, was that I\'m typing this right now...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 23, 2007, 01:34:36 AM
Human behavior/decision-making is not 100% predictable though. And fuck monkeys. Monkeys are retarded. Let\'s talk about dolphins. :) Primates are stupid comparatively.
Quote
So even the fact that I\'m typing this right now is not a product of my free will. It\'s because everything has acted in a predictable manner, through which the outcome, unavoidably, was that I\'m typing this right now...
As logical as that may seem, it doesn\'t really fit into human brain mechanisms. We\'ve barely scratched the surface of understanding the human brain. I don\'t think things can be so simplified. Some evolutionists say we\'ve evolved a consciousness, whatever the hell that means. I do get your point though.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 01:34:50 AM
Yea, I totally get what your saying. I just don\'t really think that takes out any ability to make choices. Even though those processes are making me/allow me to type this, I can still decide whether to type \'shit\' or \'fart\'. Meaning, just because the brain gives me the ability to do thigns doesn\'t take out the idea of choice.
But you\'re probably beating a dead horse since going by ur way of thinking, those choices are only made because of the processes (for lack of better wording). As the great philosopher bill o\'reilly says, "we agree to disagree" lol
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 23, 2007, 01:39:31 AM
Quote
Yea, I totally get what your saying. I just don\'t really think that takes out any ability to make choices. Even though those processes are making me/allow me to type this, I can still decide whether to type \'shit\' or \'fart\'. Meaning, just because the brain gives me the ability to do thigns doesn\'t take out the idea of choice.
Yeah, we still have the option to choose to do something or not, irrelevant of the fact that it\'s mere chemical processes. It\'s not predictable what I\'m typing. I could just randomly decide to say
VAGINA BLOOD BUBBLE FART!
Cognitive processes are not like your example of salt. They are spontaneous and not always well organized.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 01:41:26 AM
Quote from: Evi
Some evolutionists say we\'ve evolved a consciousness, whatever the hell that means. I do get your point though.
Even though I believe in evolution, behavioral evolution always seems like a stretch to me. Like, Agression is prominent because only the aggressive males back in the day were able to fight off other males to win land, and more importantly females, and their genes spread as opposed to the other less-aggressive male. Sounds logical, but it\'s always over-simplified and somewhat of a \'what-if\' situation.
Maybe those with consciousness had the cognitive ability to survive and reproduce...always has something to do with reproduceing,lol
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:46:36 AM
Quote from: Evi
Yeah, we still have the option to choose to do something or not, irrelevant of the fact that it\'s mere chemical processes. It\'s not predictable what I\'m typing. I could just randomly decide to say
VAGINA BLOOD BUBBLE FART!
Cognitive processes are not like your example of salt. They are spontaneous and not always well organized.
I\'m not talking about cognitive processes. cognitive processes are made up of different kinds of chemical processes in the brain.
Quote from: Evi
As logical as that may seem, it doesn\'t really fit into human brain mechanisms
why wouldn\'t it?
btw. did any of you read my post about daniel dennett\'s views? it was the last post on the previous page, so you might have missed it. If you didn\'t read it, please do and elaborate on it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 23, 2007, 02:30:11 AM
I\'m tired. -.0
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 23, 2007, 04:10:47 AM
Quote from: politiepet
I think you are missing a part of my point. You think humans (and monkees) have the ability to make their own decisions. I keep hearing that from a lot of people. However, I think that is not true. Every "decision" we make is the product of our brain at work. But because the brain is formed naturally, it\'s not actually you who\'s making the decisions, but it\'s just processes at work. These processes are all perfectly well predictable, the same way as it is predictable that if you, for instance, heat up wood to a certain temperature it will start burning. The life you see all around you, being it human or rats or whatever, it is just the product of these processes. When you study the human brain and compare it to any animals brain, you\'ll find out they are pretty much the same. the only reason we are smarter is that our cortex is relatively larger, giving us the ability to do more sophisticated things. people often confuse their believes with free choice. to many people the thought of not being able to choose for themselves is too frightening, so they\'ll choose to think otherwise.
odd, i thought my brain was my own. Its my own process that creates options to go left or right, whether its a process of my brain is irrelevant. I control my brain not the other way around. Otherwise i\'d do implosive things without thought or regret.
Tell me this, why is every human on the planet unique?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 23, 2007, 07:28:26 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
odd, i thought my brain was my own. Its my own process that creates options to go left or right, whether its a process of my brain is irrelevant. I control my brain not the other way around. Otherwise i\'d do implosive things without thought or regret.
Tell me this, why is every human on the planet unique?
I agree...while the brain does control every action and re-action, it\'s still a part of you,... you are the one making choices, the brain just gives you the ability to do so. And like souly stated, if everybody was as predicable as these supposed processes, then everybody would be thinking and acting alike...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 07:29:18 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
odd, i thought my brain was my own. Its my own process that creates options to go left or right, whether its a process of my brain is irrelevant. I control my brain not the other way around. Otherwise i\'d do implosive things without thought or regret.
Tell me this, why is every human on the planet unique?
how exactly is it you control your brain? It would seem impossible since it is the brain that controls all function.
the reason why humans are all different is that no 2 brains are exactly the same. The reason that no 2 brains are exactly the same is, because they all exist in different places, interacting with different things.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 23, 2007, 07:34:38 AM
OMG! Check this out!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 07:49:32 AM
I\'ve already seen that somewhere before, could you please stay on topic? ;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 23, 2007, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: politiepet
how exactly is it you control your brain? It would seem impossible since it is the brain that controls all function.
the reason why humans are all different is that no 2 brains are exactly the same. The reason that no 2 brains are exactly the same is, because they all exist in different places, interacting with different things.
The way you\'re saying it is as if the brain is a whole seperate part of the body,..... like our conciousness is lying dormant until the brain itself(which is functioning on it\'s own) gives the rest of the body directions and actions to take...that\'s not the case at all, the brain is not "thinking" for us..it is not giving us instructions...we are in total control of everything that we do...the brain is a part of us as a whole....
*oh and gman...welcome to 4 days ago!*...;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 23, 2007, 08:07:52 AM
Frikken Vikings and Theives! You jacked my thread.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 23, 2007, 01:18:48 PM
Quote from: GmanJoe
OMG! Check this out!
I watched it again and the best part of the video is the camera guy took him down and he still had the camera in his hand.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: clips
The way you\'re saying it is as if the brain is a whole seperate part of the body,..... like our conciousness is lying dormant until the brain itself(which is functioning on it\'s own) gives the rest of the body directions and actions to take...that\'s not the case at all, the brain is not "thinking" for us..it is not giving us instructions...we are in total control of everything that we do...the brain is a part of us as a whole....
*oh and gman...welcome to 4 days ago!*...;)
I´ll ask the question again then: how do you control your brain?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 23, 2007, 02:06:15 PM
Quote from: politiepet
I´ll ask the question again then: how do you control your brain?
That is a tough question. You stumped me. Still don\'t believe what you\'re saying though but I will definitely think about it when I\'m at class tonight.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 23, 2007, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: politiepet
I´ll ask the question again then: how do you control your brain?
sometimes you can\'t. Hence why the majority of murders are on the fly and unplanned. But you\'re able to think about the situation, and stop. You can\'t control your thoughts very easily, but you can control actions. And once you control that action, you control your brain. Only way i can think of to control thoughts is to become ignorant of something so you cant think of it..
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Joker on October 23, 2007, 03:32:41 PM
This is Gman\'s greatest creation.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 23, 2007, 04:34:27 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
sometimes you can\'t. Hence why the majority of murders are on the fly and unplanned. But you\'re able to think about the situation, and stop. You can\'t control your thoughts very easily, but you can control actions. And once you control that action, you control your brain. Only way i can think of to control thoughts is to become ignorant of something so you cant think of it..
that doesn\'t answer my question, I\'m asking HOW you control it. Your saying you can control action, but what controls it? is it not the brain?
also none of the above disproves my claim that every action your brain takes is a predetermined one...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 23, 2007, 04:37:03 PM
Every action your brain takes is not predetermined. Every action you do happens inside the brain, yes. But not everything is predictable like your salt example. There is unpredictability with human decision-making, but it still all happens in the brain. Just because everything happens in the brain doesn\'t mean all your actions are predictable. It just means your brain is...well...working.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 23, 2007, 05:03:36 PM
I have to agree with Evi on this. Your brain works like a computer. It uses circuitry through use of electricity. You can control your own brain. It is that complex. I don\'t believe life or anything for that matter is predetermined unless man does it himself.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Luke on October 23, 2007, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: fre4d4
FINE IM ENDING IT.
Well, that didn\'t work.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 23, 2007, 06:24:57 PM
Quote from: politiepet
that doesn\'t answer my question, I\'m asking HOW you control it. Your saying you can control action, but what controls it? is it not the brain?
also none of the above disproves my claim that every action your brain takes is a predetermined one...
you haven\'t said how we don\'t. I could say, we create the chemical reaction that makes our brains do certain things. As infants we learn to control these chemicals and develop our brain as we grow. That doesn\'t mean its right.
I can say however, that scientists have done studies to people where they\'ve played around with peoples brains to stimulate certain parts of the body to see how long it takes people to feel anything. Then they play with that part of the body directly.
Guess which one people feel quicker, people feel the direct touch faster then the brain itself. It\'s quite interesting, they even had cases when people felt things before they were even touched. The brain is a complex thing, our understanding of it is extremely small. I personally believe we have a "soul" so to speak that controls everything. Problem is when our brain gets damaged this control gets screwed up and translated back to our bodies wrong.
I also believe in leprechauns and fairies.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 01:01:54 AM
Quote from: Evi
Every action your brain takes is not predetermined. Every action you do happens inside the brain, yes. But not everything is predictable like your salt example. There is unpredictability with human decision-making, but it still all happens in the brain. Just because everything happens in the brain doesn\'t mean all your actions are predictable. It just means your brain is...well...working.
give me an example then of this unpredictability...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 01:17:34 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
you haven\'t said how we don\'t. I could say, we create the chemical reaction that makes our brains do certain things. As infants we learn to control these chemicals and develop our brain as we grow. That doesn\'t mean its right.
and how does one start up a chemical reaction in the brain? my guess would be with another chemical reaction. my point is: everything that goes on in the brain has to be guided by these reactions/processes of nature. Every part of your brain, hell, every part of the universe consists of atoms/molecules/etc that all are bound to react in a certain manner to each other. It\'s not possible for your "concience" to say: okay, I\'m gonna make these two things react, but not those two. Every existing part of the universe WILL react according to predictable patterns. the same goes for all the things your brain consists of.
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
I can say however, that scientists have done studies to people where they\'ve played around with peoples brains to stimulate certain parts of the body to see how long it takes people to feel anything. Then they play with that part of the body directly.
Guess which one people feel quicker, people feel the direct touch faster then the brain itself. It\'s quite interesting, they even had cases when people felt things before they were even touched. The brain is a complex thing, our understanding of it is extremely small. I personally believe we have a "soul" so to speak that controls everything. Problem is when our brain gets damaged this control gets screwed up and translated back to our bodies wrong.
I study psychology and these kind of things are actually what I love about it, so I\'ll try to explain this phenomenon. It is true that people are able to respond to things before they "conciously" (let\'s call it that for now ;)) make notice of it. For instance, when you touch something that is hot, you often already retracted your hand before you feel the heat. This can be explained by the fact that the spinal cord is actually a part of your brain (a fact which not a lot of people know). When you touch the heat source the signal is send through the spinal cord to the (rest of the) brain. However, upon reaching the spinal cord, a signal is send back causing the reflex of retracting the hand. because the route to the spinal cord is shorter then the route to the brain, where the sensation of heat is created, you\'ll act before your brain is "aware".
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 24, 2007, 01:36:19 AM
Quote from: politiepet
give me an example then of this unpredictability...
You\'re making zero sense.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 01:40:05 AM
Quote from: Evi
You\'re making zero sense.
what action of the brain is not caused by physical/chemical reactions?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 24, 2007, 04:15:52 AM
Quote from: politiepet
give me an example then of this unpredictability...
I think it kinda varies....i kinda see what you\'re talking about,..but it\'s somewhere between you talkin\' alot of psycho-babble and actually knowing what you\'re talking about,...and a little bit of me actually tryin to understand what it is you\'re sayin\'...
So here it goes unpredictability? in the simplest of terms a person can be routine in his or her daily lifestyle...get up go to work, stop and get coffee etc,...but that same person out of the blue could just take a different route to work, or try a different flavor of coffee....another form of unpredicability could be in the form of extreme behavior....which sometimes can\'t really be explained.
When somebody does something crazy, like kill a baby or commit a horrendous murder in most cases people say that there was a chemical imbalance in the brain that caused such behavior....lawyers for defendants like to call it temporary insanity...which i say bulls**t....during the act you are still in total control...the brain is not telling you to go out and commit the said crime..unless it is triggered by some heavy drug use that affects the brain, you are still in total control of your overall behavior.
The only way i see that there is a definite unpredicability with anyone will only be if they have some type of mental disorder(paranoid schizofrinia) and with that sickness you can be living with someone that has no real control over their actions,...well they have very little but for the most part the mood swings can be extreme and erratic and in most cases the person with the sickness can be gentle and kind one moment and then violent and dangerous the next....that is the only time where i can honestly say that the brain itself is actually "controlling" the person..
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 24, 2007, 04:19:19 AM
we understand that the brain works on chemical reactions, but to say these reactions are predictable is retarded. Every brain is unique, you said it yourself. Hence every reaction we have would be unique.
and yes, i do believe that we control such reactions. Only when these chemicals get altered or the brain itself is damaged do we lose that control. (to a point)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 24, 2007, 04:23:41 AM
Experts in this field, like Behavioural scientists, wouldn\'t that far as what politie is theorizing. Maybe he\'s an actuarialist and can use numbers to predict EVERYTHING! Like Chaos Theory.... :)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 04:46:52 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
we understand that the brain works on chemical reactions, but to say these reactions are predictable is retarded. Every brain is unique, you said it yourself. Hence every reaction we have would be unique.
and yes, i do believe that we control such reactions. Only when these chemicals get altered or the brain itself is damaged do we lose that control. (to a point)
I\'m not trying to disprove that each brain can be unique, that\'s beside the point.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 05:01:17 AM
Quote from: clips
I think it kinda varies....i kinda see what you\'re talking about,..but it\'s somewhere between you talkin\' alot of psycho-babble and actually knowing what you\'re talking about,...and a little bit of me actually tryin to understand what it is you\'re sayin\'...
So here it goes unpredictability? in the simplest of terms a person can be routine in his or her daily lifestyle...get up go to work, stop and get coffee etc,...but that same person out of the blue could just take a different route to work, or try a different flavor of coffee....another form of unpredicability could be in the form of extreme behavior....which sometimes can\'t really be explained.
When somebody does something crazy, like kill a baby or commit a horrendous murder in most cases people say that there was a chemical imbalance in the brain that caused such behavior....lawyers for defendants like to call it temporary insanity...which i say bulls**t....during the act you are still in total control...the brain is not telling you to go out and commit the said crime..unless it is triggered by some heavy drug use that affects the brain, you are still in total control of your overall behavior.
The only way i see that there is a definite unpredicability with anyone will only be if they have some type of mental disorder(paranoid schizofrinia) and with that sickness you can be living with someone that has no real control over their actions,...well they have very little but for the most part the mood swings can be extreme and erratic and in most cases the person with the sickness can be gentle and kind one moment and then violent and dangerous the next....that is the only time where i can honestly say that the brain itself is actually "controlling" the person..
the only thing you\'re describing there is the difference between ordinary tasks and.. well... not so ordinary tasks... the basics are the same. I understand what you all are saying, but it is all not an argument against my theory. Just because we can do things that aren\'t ordinary doesn\'t mean we suddenly have control over them... Like I said earlier, you feel like you are in control, but that\'s just an illusion. You are all just describing the feeling of that illusion.
I think we can all agree that nature follows rules. (like the salt example again) these rules are very complex, but they are 100% trustworthy nonetheless. this means that every atom in the universe will follow these rules. it\'s not something you can control. when water gets heated it will vaporize, if it gets frozen it wil become ice. (I\'m not an expert on chemistry and physics so making examples is difficult). This is just a basic example of the enormously complexity that is this reality we\'re living in. Understanding that these rules are always followed is key to understanding this theory, because, just like sand, water, iron, carbon and so forth, we humans are, in the end, all just a collection of these atoms that follow strict rules. Knowing this, I\'ll ask my question a third time: how would we humans, if we were to have a conciousness (a real one, not the illusion), control these rules and bend them, so that we take real control, and not just have the illusion that we control our decisions?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 05:16:01 AM
Quote from: GmanJoe
Experts in this field, like Behavioural scientists, wouldn\'t that far as what politie is theorizing. Maybe he\'s an actuarialist and can use numbers to predict EVERYTHING! Like Chaos Theory.... :)
earlier on in this thread I gave you a quote from a very famous (american ;)) philosofer who closely resembles my thoughts on this issue, daniel dennett. look up his work, especially the book: conciousness explained. it has some very interesting ingishts in this matter...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 24, 2007, 05:20:04 AM
Sounds like a quack to me. ;) :p
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 24, 2007, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: politiepet
I\'ll ask my question a third time: how would we humans, if we were to have a conciousness (a real one, not the illusion), control these rules and bend them, so that we take real control, and not just have the illusion that we control our decisions?
Well, your examples only list only physical realworld elements. Indeed, these have actual limitations, but THAT\'s where creativity and a clear conscious come into play. That\'s where we are forced to take responsibility and learn life\'s lessons ; to do something "good" or "bad" in the context of what we call our reality.
Otherwise we\'d be walking zombies or just creatures acting on pure animalistic instinct.
There\'s evidence enough that the non-physical elements such as psychological doings can have far greater effects on people\'s lives than physical actions/ events.
Saying we have no true consciousness in context of our reality is walking a slippery slope towards feeling no responsibility, thus being prone to mindlessly follow any power institute which claims it\'s some kind of an almighty fate, or any other addictive factor such as drugs or alcohol ( Hey, there\'s a reason why they say "religion is the Opium of the people" )
I do believe in a God, but to me God is something vastly different from what any known religion/faith tries to tell people. I believe God is something infinitely bigger and that earth and mankind are certainly NOT the centre of Godly creation. How the fuck did mankind get so arrogant to think that they are centre piece Godly creation. We have six senses, a rational limited mind and detection machines ; There\'s no way we can claim to know what LIFE all encompasses. Even if we can not see it, smell it, hear it or whatever, it doesn\'t give any human the right to state for truth to say that there is no life where he cannot detect it. We are far too limited to make such claims.
An ant walks on my enter button of the keyboard; hey, the ant indeed senses the keyboard... but it still doesn\'t ( probably ? ) know what an "enter button" actually is and it doesn\'t even understand what "plastic" is . What I\'m trying to say is ; even if we DID detect other life forms outside of our range of detection ; our minds would come short to even comprehend it.
That\'s why i believe God is far greater than what "they" say. Certainly not something which created "Man to His image". The universe as we know it might be even as small to God as an atomn to one life size man. There\'s no God specially for mankind. Human\'s made it up imo, just to try to somewhat comprehend it all. I think God is not something personal. It ( I refuse to refer to God as "Him" ) is the ultimate Creation and there\'s purpose to it and all life ; for us, we just need to live a life\'s lesson in the limited context of our reality. Taking more responsibility to learn and evolve.
I already had big convo\'s/discussions about God with my girlfriend and her community ; she\'s a real Catholic. - but that\'s another story.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 05:56:25 AM
Quote from: Knotter8
There\'s evidence enough that the non-physical elements such as psychological doings can have far greater effects on people\'s lives than physical actions/ events. .
being a psychology student, I can assure you that psychological doings are very much based on physical elements.
Quote from: Knotter8
Saying we have no true consciousness in context of our reality is walking a slippery slope towards feeling no responsibility, thus being prone mindlessly follow any power institute which claims it\'s some kind of an almighty fate.
this, is exactly my point! Although you feel responsible for your actions, ultimately you aren\'t. This all boils down to one question. What do you consider to be your "self"/"concience"? I\'d very much like you all to give me an answer to that question.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 24, 2007, 06:35:10 AM
Quote from: politiepet
being a psychology student, I can assure you that psychological doings are very much based on physical elements.
Personally, I believe humans and physical life are Godly "force" materialized ; indeed, physical elements with physical attributes.
The soul is the essence of that force, but it switched state when it came into physical being. All it\'s human life accumilated experiences and lesson will transition into Godly force again, once we exit this human life. Yes, you could say i believe in Godly Force/our soul exiting the material dimension and going back into it\'s original state of pure force again, but this time it evolved thanks to materialised life\'s lessons ; which has effect for the next stadium to Godly force. I do not believe in \'absolute\' right or wrong, but i do believe each our decisions might pose a good or bad element with certain consequences.
That\'s what Hideo Kojima actually tells in MGS2 ; we are tied to limited contextual circumstances ; in our case, a physical reality. But our "Self" is each our decision to each situation. Just because a carpenter only has one tool, a hammer to his disposal, doesn\'t mean his "Self" ( That, of being a carpenter with his own unique ways ) is nothing more than the limited tool he has.
And that\'s what i think earth life is ; a set of limited materialised contexts as a means of lesson for the soul.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 06:49:28 AM
a godly "force" materialized?
I can\'t argue against that, since it\'s impossible to prove a negative, so I\'m gonna ask of you to give me some kind of prove for that...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 24, 2007, 07:59:47 AM
Yes. I think we and our universe are of Godly creation in the material way.
Material ; as in ; matter, atoms, molecules, carbon based life forms. All that, is the part of Godly creation which we are capable of detecting and (partially) understand ; because it is material, just like us.
Aside from that, I do believe there\'s alot more to God\'s Creation than material creation ; things which we cannot hear, cannot see, cannot feel, smell, taste etc. Godly creation which are different forms of life which we cannot detect/understand.
Just because we cannot notice other Godly creation doesn\'t mean we can say that our material reality is the one and only. That\'s why i think projects like Seti are kind of useless, because they\'re looking for anything which ... is eventually similair to \'life forms\' as only we can detect and comprehend.
For example, i do believe in intertwining universes ; ours, being the material one and the other in some other "dimension" for the lack of better words.
Actually, any human language, in itself, is limited to our capacity of human comprehension. But that\'s OK i guess, because humans have a way of becoming judgemental very quickly about things we do not understand.
To wrap it up; my theory is a bit like in the Akira story ( Otomo 1988 ) where, eventually Tetsuo returns into cosmos back to his true form of \'energy\' / Godly force.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 24, 2007, 09:13:53 AM
wow....very interesting anologies and theories/ beliefs from all sides.....continue.....:thumb:...i believe in god as well knotter, but you really are on a whole deeper level with it...good stuff!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 24, 2007, 09:16:34 AM
Quote from: politiepet
a godly "force" materialized?
I can\'t argue against that, since it\'s impossible to prove a negative, so I\'m gonna ask of you to give me some kind of prove for that...
how bout you prove your facts to us, rather then us explaining the same things over and over.
PROVE to me my brain is in control of me, prove it controls my actions and not me. i don\'t want your thoughts or some other doods theories.
prove it to me.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 24, 2007, 09:19:08 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
how bout you prove your facts to us, rather then us explaining the same things over and over.
PROVE to me my brain is in control of me, prove it controls my actions and not me. i don\'t want your thoughts or some other doods theories.
prove it to me.
damn...soully...you\'re like f**k the bulls**t!...show me the facts!....:laughing: too funny!...:laughing:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on October 24, 2007, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
how bout you prove your facts to us, rather then us explaining the same things over and over.
PROVE to me my brain is in control of me, prove it controls my actions and not me. i don\'t want your thoughts or some other doods theories.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 24, 2007, 09:35:02 AM
^^^i\'m having a very TITilizing sensation down below!....."boing"....:eek:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 09:36:44 AM
okay first of all, you haven\'t explained anything to me, you\'ve just been giving me the same stuff about uniqueness, which I\'m not denying, since it is irrelevant to my point. second of all, I never said your "brain is in control", in fact my point is that it\'s not in control whatsoever.
my prove is in the fact that forces of nature act according to rules that are strict. This is absolute fact. I\'ll use the (tired) salt argument again (since it is the easiest), no one has ever been able to stop/reverse/change the process of salt dissolving other than by using the rules of nature... this can be seen analogous to every process inside (and around) you. you\'re body is just that. a number of natural processes combined. These processes are working under the same rules. In fact, no one has ever found anything inside a living being that does not follow these rules. should it ever be found we should call it "soul" I guess, but till that day we have no reason to believe it to exist.
to sum it up: no one has ever been able to proof there\'s more to life than the natural processes going on inside it, so till the day someone finds it, I\'m gonna consider it to be non-existent.
one last thing. You\'re the one telling me there\'s more to it than that, so I believe you\'re the one that need\'s to explain to me where you are basing this on. You can\'t ask someone to prove a negative, that\'s simply not possible.... If I\'d ask you to prove there are no purple dogs (crazy example) in this world, would you be able to?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 24, 2007, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
PROVE to me my brain is in control of me, prove it controls my actions and not me. prove it to me.
Soulgrind,
What he means, is that your decisions and thoughts, both on every day detail level and life time span, is bound to and contextual to the limitations of our physical reality.
Your soul ( no pun intended ) is bound to the inherent physical aspects of this human life. Your brain is part of that \'tool set\' so t speak. If you were to suffer from sudden brain damage ; it will still be your soul in there, but your soul will cope differently with the altered physical situation, which usually on a conscious level, defines what you think comprises your own "self".
To Clips ; yes, i too believe in a God. But like I said.... my belief is that God is so vastly outside of our range of comprehension that we cannot describe it as as a personal deity ; the term "personal" IS something bound to the context of our material reality.
I like to think of God as Creation, all of it, as a vast purposefully designed toolset/ sandbox of souls of energy, encompassing \'good and bad\' elements. It\'s our lesson & responsibility to learn to balance it all in our lives, so we can move on as energy souls later on.
To where ? Well, to the next phase of Godly Force. A new lesson. So i believe it\'s kind of like a never ending cycle - which is very in contrast to Christian / Islamic beliefs that there is a linear goal ; such as Heaven / Hell.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 09:43:56 AM
your entitled to believe in a soul and I respect that. However, having said that, I\'ll tell you I don\'t believe there\'s more than the toolbox that is your brain. And like I said earlier, as long as there is no evidence that there indeed is more, I refuse to believe it. I\'m not saying it isn\'t there, just that I don\'t see a reason to believe there is as of right now...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on October 24, 2007, 10:38:07 AM
But that\'s fine. I just don\'t undertstand you comparing random decision-making and the ability to analyze situations and make choices based on those analyzations as predetermined absolutes like your salt example, which is an absolute. The brain chemicals and everything we do in life happens in our brain, yes. That is certainly true. That doesn\'t mean everything we do is "predetermined". It\'s all still chemical processes, but the whole predetermined thing sounds a little bit crackheadish. That doesn\'t makes any sense and will still not make sense no matter how many times you say the same thing over and over again.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 11:54:14 AM
I\'ll stop trying to explain it, since I don\'t know what to add to it anymore ;)
I just wish someone would give me one reason why it can\'t be true other than that it sounds too crazy...
I got you as far as to agree that the brain is the control center and that the salt example is an absolute... what system in the brain is not absolute then? what is it that makes us any different from dead objects?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 24, 2007, 11:59:05 AM
I think, therefore I am.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Cerberus on October 24, 2007, 12:05:39 PM
Quote from: Samwise
I think, therefore I am.
yes, you most certainly are!!!
:D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: Samwise
I think, therefore I am.
OMG samwise your so smart I love you! I think I´ve heard it somewhere before though ;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on October 24, 2007, 12:13:59 PM
Pfft, Descartes aint got nothin\' on me.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 24, 2007, 03:42:39 PM
politiepet, you\'ve still failed to prove anything. You compare facts to fiction and call the fiction a fact. Thats hardly proving anything. Again, prove to me why our brain is in control of my actions and not my "soul" in control of my brain.
You can\'t. Which makes this whole debate nothing but theories. I personally do believe that theres more then just chemical reactions that control us. Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from? I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 24, 2007, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
politiepet, you\'ve still failed to prove anything. You compare facts to fiction and call the fiction a fact. Thats hardly proving anything. Again, prove to me why our brain is in control of my actions and not my "soul" in control of my brain.
You can\'t. Which makes this whole debate nothing but theories. I personally do believe that theres more then just chemical reactions that control us. Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from? I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.
What the fuck dude? what fiction are you talking about?
if anything is fiction, it\'s this soul you speak of, since no one has ever been able to identify one...
funny how I have used nothing but scientific facts to come to a conclusion, yet you still want me to give you "proof", whereas you are constantly basing your assumptions on the fact that you BELIEVE there is more to it, yet you have never given me any proof/reason for this to be the case, other than your believe in it...
oh and another thing. just because science hasn\'t found an explanation for everything, doesn\'t mean you can just assume there must be a soul then.....
you, yet again haven\'t given me even one piece of evidence for the existence of a soul.... You keep saying you believe it to be there...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 24, 2007, 06:31:57 PM
what facts? you\'ve said everything is just a chemical reaction. You haven\'t disproved we have a soul. So how can you tell us facts about something that you can\'t disprove or prove. Again, its theories, NOT FACTS.
Show me factual proof that the chemicals in my brain control my actions and not the other way around. I don\'t want theories, i wanted proven scientific research.
I asked you 2 simple questions. Where do dreams and thoughts come from?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on October 24, 2007, 06:36:37 PM
i don\'t know the answer either...but anybody here ever got wet dreams? and what were your thoughts like when have them?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 24, 2007, 06:43:56 PM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from? I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.
That is something that i think about from time to time....and it\'s simply astonishing. How exactly does the brain create these images and voices in your head on the fly?,...there\'s no film projector or dvd player up there yet just sittin\' here i can see and create images in my head with but a thought, and the brain is nothing more than a mound of flesh.
But it\'s also a fascinating organ,...i was watching on the discovery channel one night and the show was showing a surgeon performing brain surgery,..long story short, they showed him touching various locations of the brain and with each touch, the person displayed a different emotion...really amazing,...i mean the person would frown,...smile,..smirk,...or just moan...
I think the surgeon touched one part of the brain that he stated controlled the patients speech, and when he touched it, it was like he scrambled his speech cause the person was talking like he was retarded, and makin\' really weird sounds....the brain is absolutely amazing and there are so many things we still don\'t know about it....
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 24, 2007, 06:47:57 PM
the key to all that is the electricity in the brain...but even that is astonishing. But whats cool is in psych class they were talking about how certain parts of ur brain are more active when you\'re frowning/smiling/etc.
definitly the most interesting organ we have..
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 25, 2007, 12:19:40 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
what facts? you\'ve said everything is just a chemical reaction. You haven\'t disproved we have a soul. So how can you tell us facts about something that you can\'t disprove or prove. Again, its theories, NOT FACTS.
Show me factual proof that the chemicals in my brain control my actions and not the other way around. I don\'t want theories, i wanted proven scientific research.
I asked you 2 simple questions. Where do dreams and thoughts come from?
dude, you are really talking out of your ass. It is common knowledge that the brain consists of 100 billion neurons, that are all interacting with eachother, with the use of neurotransmitters like epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, acetolcheline and so forth. this is not something I\'m making up. This is an absolute fact. You\'re asking me to disprove the existence of a soul? Think for yourself for a moment, maybe you\'ll see how insane that sounds. It\'s impossible to disprove the existence of something. If I were to tell you the earth is ruled by a teapot orbiting the planet would you believe it? probably not, but you sure as hell can\'t disprove it either.... look, it\'s very simple, there is no proof of there being a soul, so we HAVE to assume there isn\'t one until that proof is found...
and to answer your question about dreams AGAIN. I\'m not an expert, I DON\'T know where dreams come from, however, that doesn\'t in any way prove the existence of a soul. However there has been scientific research on the origins of dreams. In 2000 a researcher named Mark Solms studied patiens with damage to the forebrain (it\'s a part of the brain that sits very deeply below the cortex), he discovered that these patients stopped dreaming. I\'m not saying this is conclusive evidence of dreams being generated in the brain, but it is definitely marking it as a strong possibility....
here\'s the source: Solms, M. (2000). Dreaming and REM sleep are controlled by different brain mechanisms, 23(6), Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 793-1121.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 25, 2007, 03:15:31 AM
Quote from: politiepet
look, it\'s very simple, there is no proof of there being a soul, so we HAVE to assume there isn\'t one until that proof is found...
The age old existential question indeed. But I\'m pretty sure a \'soul\' will never ever be proven scientifically. Imo, it\'s the one part of Godly creation which isn\'t \'captured\' to become material ; because, afterall.... all material will degrade, \'ashes to ashes, dust to dust\'.
So, that immaterial soul is the force, the thing i speak of ; which is my driving force in life. It\'s the prevalent urge to evolve in life and to become better at things we do and to develop personality and to do good ; to try to add to the effort of making the world a better place.
That\'s enough evidence for me that there is soul in humans. Otherwise, there\'s always Christianity ; geloof in de Vader, de zoon en de Heilige Geest, Amen. But, they ( Christians ) interprete God, as a personal force ... as if it would all revolve around God, humans and earth.
I personally, believe that God \'looks\' nothing like mankind ; it\'s way bigger than the Christian concept and like i said ; i believe ... that within our range of comprehension ; God is \'imporsonal\' and bigger than a billion of our universes compiled together.
For this human life time, to us, it is only relevant, that we care about what matters in this human life to evolve and improve, so that the next phase of our soul will benefit from it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 25, 2007, 03:22:42 AM
hey, if that\'s what you think, good for you!
But I\'d like to know if you agree with me on the fact that soulgrind can\'t ask of me to disprove this soul...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 25, 2007, 03:48:10 AM
this whole debate is about the brain controls us and not the other way around. You haven\'t proved this, you\'ve proved the brain controls motor functions, verbal functions, senses, hearing0 crap like that, but that doesn\'t prove the brain controls us, simply the brain controls functions of the body.
Again, prove to me with scientific facts that the brain is in control of me and not the other way around. I don\'t care about how the brain interacts with the body, I\'m not debating or doubting that. I\'m doubting simply that i have no control over my actions and everything is a outcome of my brain. If that were true, as many of us have said, impulse would dominate my actions, not rational thought.
Now, explain to me were thoughts come from? Seeing an image in your head even? or dreams. I bet even in a hundred years these questions won\'t be answered.
Heres a question you may be able to answer, what happens to the energy a human has when they die? Do you know what the term "cause and effect" means?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 25, 2007, 03:57:09 AM
Well, yeah.. i can understand :)
Since i am dating my current girlfriend, who is Catholic.. i had many talks with her Catholic friends as well ( mind you, my parents are from Christian background, but not practicing ).
Some of her friends would give me books from American ministries like John Maisel. The book\'s called "Is Jesus God ?" ; and i disagree with about every single word written in that book. He basically closes the book with a writing which calls for the eradication of atheists. I think mr Maisel is a true example of a conservative idiot. Let me quote him :
"Can we prove the existance of God without a Bible ? " An Adequate case for the existence of God can be made without reference to any Bible or Holy book.
In brief, the existence of God follows these three steps : 1) every effect has a cause 2) the universe is an effect 3) Therefore, the universe has a cause which we call God
longer version :
1) every effect has a cause which is greater (that is more complex) than itself 2) the universe is an effect which must have a cause which is greater (more complex) than itself 3) the universe exists (Pantheism is wrong) 4) therefore the cause of the universe exists 5) the universe contains the personal and the moral ( we humans are personal and moral ) 6) therefore, at least a personal moral cause for the universe exists. So now the cause can be called "He" not "It". 7) the universe does not create something from nothing (by observation) yet it is something 8) therefore the universe had to be created from nothing (or from something that was ultimately created from nothing) 9) therefore, the personal moral existing cause for the universe can create (i.e., a personal moral Creator exists) 10) if the Creator -Cause were finite, then he would have another Creator -Cause who would have in turn another one and so on. 11) But that would mean that at least one finite Creator-Cause would be either (a) self caused or (b) uncaused. That is impossible because (a) a being cannot precede itself to cause itself and (b) nothing finite is uncaused. 12) therefore all the causes cannot be finite(non-ultimate causes) 13)the personal moral existing Creator -Cause is infinite 14) the infinite cause must be eternal because eternality is infinity applied to time ( and no meaningful statement can be made about space without reference to time ) 15) An infinite eternal cause could not change ( since anything He would change into, He would already be) 16)The Creator-Cause must be all-knowing, all-powerful and all perfect (otherwise, he could change) 17)therefore a personal moral, infinite eternal immutable (unchanging) all knowing, all perfect Creator Cause exists. 18) Such a being is worthy of worship 19) A being worthy of worship can be called God 20) Therefor , God exists.
Conclusion : Atheism must be rejected as a reasonable worldview. "
End of quote.
I disagree strongly with points 5 to 6 and 15 to 20. Maisel applies earthly human terms such as \'personal\' and \'perfect\'. In my opinion, his Christianity is a heavily flawed human attempt at trying to understand what God is ; because it applies human logic ( which falls short ) to God. They say "God created man to His image". I think that is FALSE. What happened is that mankind can\'t grasp it and the institute called religion decided to make people believe that. So, imo, they created God to their (mankind\'s) image.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 25, 2007, 04:01:53 AM
@ soulgrind:
I give up.. you simply fail to see my point over and over again... it\'s getting tiresome. one last thing though, read my posts for a change. I already told you there\'s reason to believe dreams are nothing more than the very same processes that control your body. It\'s all just a brain function....
human energy?! seriously, stop making things up and using them like they are facts..... I don\'t know what the hell you mean...
Untill you actually come up with proof of this soul or whatever I\'m not gonna reply to you any more...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 25, 2007, 04:13:52 AM
Oh, one other thing to think about: When you are thinking (rationally), where do you feel the action is taking place? I bet you feel it\'s happening within your brain, right?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 25, 2007, 05:58:13 AM
Damn dood, you like dancing around. Answer the questions, don\'t pussy footing around them. This debate is simply about your brain controls you and you have no free will basically. You\'re not in control of your actions, well i want you to prove that.
I want facts, not theories and this chemical reactions control everything bs. You can\'t prove that. You haven\'t proved that. Prove right now, that everything originates from the brain. You simply can\'t do it because we don\'t know enough about how the brain works or as you said yourself, if we have a soul, or even were these processes originate from.
Hell, you don\'t even understand the concept of energy never dissipates, it just changes form. Guess what our "brains" are full off. The only thing you\'ve proved is body fuctions are controlled by the brain. Thought processes stimulate parts of the brain i agree, does that mean they originated from the brain. Yes? prove it!
Some say these energies change form when you die and wella, your "soul" leaves your body. I can\'t prove or disprove that. Doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t happen.
You\'re the type that probably would believe the earth was flat because some science dood said so, but gives shit to the guy that said the earth was round. Hey, whatever works for you.
cause and effect. Read up on it, it may enlighten your closed brain.
and again, prove to me that i\'m not in control of my actions. That my brain controls everything. That i have no free will.
here (http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/tisthammerw/rlgnphil/soul.html), i found a little site that kinda says what i\'ve been trying to say. Not factual proof, but what you\'ve posted isn\'t either. Remember, we\'re not debating that your brain controls your functions, but that the brain is the originator of such functions.
How bout this, get a gun. Stop watching "the matrix" Put it to your head and shot yourself. When you don\'t come back and tell me why you didn\'t do it.
How can i explain it simplifier. Move your arm, your brain told your arm to move, what told your brain to move your arm? Its basically the chicken and the egg. Hence, cause and effect.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 25, 2007, 08:54:49 AM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
Damn dood, you like dancing around. Answer the questions, don\'t pussy footing around them. This debate is simply about your brain controls you and you have no free will basically. You\'re not in control of your actions, well i want you to prove that.
I want facts, not theories and this chemical reactions control everything bs. You can\'t prove that. You haven\'t proved that. Prove right now, that everything originates from the brain. You simply can\'t do it because we don\'t know enough about how the brain works or as you said yourself, if we have a soul, or even were these processes originate from.
Hell, you don\'t even understand the concept of energy never dissipates, it just changes form. Guess what our "brains" are full off. The only thing you\'ve proved is body fuctions are controlled by the brain. Thought processes stimulate parts of the brain i agree, does that mean they originated from the brain. Yes? prove it!
Some say these energies change form when you die and wella, your "soul" leaves your body. I can\'t prove or disprove that. Doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t happen.
You\'re the type that probably would believe the earth was flat because some science dood said so, but gives shit to the guy that said the earth was round. Hey, whatever works for you.
cause and effect. Read up on it, it may enlighten your closed brain.
and again, prove to me that i\'m not in control of my actions. That my brain controls everything. That i have no free will.
here (http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/tisthammerw/rlgnphil/soul.html), i found a little site that kinda says what i\'ve been trying to say. Not factual proof, but what you\'ve posted isn\'t either. Remember, we\'re not debating that your brain controls your functions, but that the brain is the originator of such functions.
How bout this, get a gun. Stop watching "the matrix" Put it to your head and shot yourself. When you don\'t come back and tell me why you didn\'t do it.
How can i explain it simplifier. Move your arm, your brain told your arm to move, what told your brain to move your arm? Its basically the chicken and the egg. Hence, cause and effect.
^ Basically, i agree on that. Energy, it\'s a beautiful principle. Yet, we are so far from mastering it. Think about all the heat dissipation from PC\'s. Yes, heat is also \'energy\'.
(It\'s kinda funny, I usually use the Columbus "Earth is not flat" example many times as well.)
Anyway, the brains are just the earthly tools of our earthly \'vessel\' we call \'body\'. There HAS to be more to it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 10:38:43 AM
The problem with that \'earth is not flat\' idea is that the person who came up with the theory that the earth is not flat were \'scientist doods\'. Not some average joe with a belief. Columbus was not the one who came up with the idea that the earth wasn\'t flat...
Science can never prove to be 100% true, even things like gravity that we THINK we know...but Newton\'s law of gravity doesn\'t work when trying to explain something like a black hole.
not to mention that it took the scientific process to prove the earth is round. Can\'t say the same about a soul
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 25, 2007, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
The problem with that \'earth is not flat\' idea is that the person who came up with the theory that the earth is not flat were \'scientist doods\'. Not some average joe with a belief. Columbus was not the one who came up with the idea that the earth wasn\'t flat...
Nowhere did I ( nor Soulgrind ) claim that it was a pivotal point about whether the "earth is not flat" theories originated from \'beliefs\' or \'scientific guesses\'.
The point is that in those times, a \'flat earth\' was such a dominant worldview, that one would be at least frowned up for thinking otherwise (read : burned or crucified) It\'s all about giving eachother room to argument in what they believe. Yes, not believing in an established religion/faith is believing in \'something\' too.
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
not to mention that it took the scientific process to prove the earth is round. Can\'t say the same about a soul
...and that\'s exactly why Soul > Science ( i wouldn\'t say that scientists who created the nuke bomb, are really smarter than me )
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 11:02:08 AM
But the thing about science is that it\'s focused around disproving. Scientists don\'t care about things that are generally accepted, and they even try to find the weakest points in their theories and tells everyone about them (Darwin for example)
With the soul its like..either you believe its there or you dont. You can\'t prove or disprove it
Im not talking about science being right and believingin a soul being wrong. For comprehension purposes, and trying to understand how things work, science>beliefs
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 11:12:55 AM
And the point I was making about ur earth being flat point is this:
Souly did insinuate it by saying "you believe some science dood who says the earth was flat, while ignoring the guy who said the earth was round\' (i adlibed).
The only way this would help your arguement is that if some scientist who went against the grain had proof there was a soul. But you dont have that, so you can\'t make a comparison to a scientific disagreement.
There\'s disagreements all through history that are like the earth is flat/the earth is round. But the difference is its all based on the scientific process. Not whether you believe in something or not since that doesn\'t fit with the scientific process.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 25, 2007, 12:28:30 PM
Wasn\'t the whole earth is flat controversy based upon religion?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 12:32:44 PM
no. some religions just happened to run with it, which is kind of ironic when you think of it...kind of like how they also ran with the earth being the center of the universe/solar system
It probably sprouted because they didnt know about gravity, so how can everyone be standing on something circular when you dont know about gravity.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on October 25, 2007, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
no. Catholics just happened to run with it, which is kind of ironic when you think of it...kind of like how they also ran with the earth being the center of the universe/solar system
But wouldn\'t that mean that Catholicism, as a religion, endorsed the flat earth? :confused:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 12:37:39 PM
sry, i edited it. I grew up catholic so there\'s a hue of bias when i argue against religion, haha. What im saying is that the majority of people believed the earth was flat, and most people are religious so..can see how the two combined
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 25, 2007, 12:39:34 PM
the whole point about the earth is flat wasn\'t about proving or disproving. It was simply about the what if factor. We haven\'t disproved there\'s a soul, we haven\'t proved it either. We at this point in time just don\'t have the means to do either. One day we will. Hopefully in my lifetime.
Some say we do already have proof, like my example about how energy changes form and never ceases. These people get called crackpots etc When the earth was said to be round, people that were "educated" denied it even with facts. This wasn\'t because it could be proven, it was simply because people don\'t like being wrong.
Its funny, a lot of things are discovered by accident. Rejected then later on taken on board as we develop technologies. We just don\'t seem to learn from past mistakes. I\'m always open to new ideas and things, but to say that we are not in control of our selfs to me is just ludicrous.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on October 25, 2007, 12:45:00 PM
I totally agree, but if I had to choose between the two, which we were hypothetically doing, I would say there isn\'t enough proof there is a soul. Im not saying that there isn\'t, so if theres some major convincing breakthrough of the possibility of a soul, then Im all for it.
And im not on politie\'s side with the brain, i already said what i wanted to say about that.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 25, 2007, 02:25:36 PM
Quote from: §ôµÏG®ïñD
This wasn\'t because it could be proven, it was simply because people don\'t like being wrong. but to say that we are not in control of our selfs to me is just ludicrous.
QFT. Of course, there will always be a bunch of people who evade responsibility because, supposedly their God or prophet will explain & act as buffer to reason something unreasonable. Or there\'s just the ones who know very consciously that their doing bad and they don\'t even care to try to improve any more.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 25, 2007, 09:01:24 PM
Looking back it seems knotter and politie are kinda sayin the same thing but using different anologies/theories..politie states that our bodies are comprised of strict natural processing, and that nature itself follows strict rules which every living creature abides by, (as with his salt example)....likewise knotter states that we were created by something humans cannot even begin to comprehend and that this entity or massive prescence is the embodiment of everything ever created in the universe itself....thus what knotter and politie are both talking about could actually be one and the same...
In more simpler terms....the natural order and strict properties that every living thing abides by and what politie states that we are a product of, is just like what knotter states in that we were produced by this life-force that no human will ever be able to understand....just think of it as one huge factory at the end of the universe with everything coming out of it,...the stars, planets,...etc...every single element that makes up life and matter and the properties that identify them are spewing from this factory,...and it could very well be what politie is saying or what knotter is sayin....thing is and we\'ve said it a million times already,.....we will never know.
*i\'ve stated my opinion on the brain already as well and decline to further comment on that subject*
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on October 26, 2007, 02:19:05 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
but if I had to choose between the two, which we were hypothetically doing, I would say there isn\'t enough proof there is a soul. Im not saying that there isn\'t, so if theres some major convincing breakthrough of the possibility of a soul, then Im all for it. .
finally something I can agree on. the difference between science and religion (and in this case soulgrind) is that religion believes in something and than searches for things that will affirm this believe, whereas science works the other way around. When it has a theory it will try everything to disprove it, untill it is found to be impossible, only then will it be accepted as fact. It\'s very human to try and affirm a theory, when in fact this is the wrong approach.
I\'ll give an example:
imagine having in front of you four cards with on one side a letter and on the other a number. This is what you\'ll see:
A 3 D 7
If I tell you that a card that has an A on one side will always have a 3 on the other, which cards would you turn to find out whether this is true? (don\'t say all of course, try to turn as little as possible)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on October 26, 2007, 02:50:48 AM
Quote from: clips
...likewise knotter states that we were created by something humans cannot even begin to comprehend and that this entity or massive prescence is the embodiment of everything ever created in the universe itself....thus what knotter and politie are both talking about could actually be one and the same...
In more simpler terms....the natural order and strict properties that every living thing abides by and what politie states that we are a product of, is just like what knotter states in that we were produced by this life-force that no human will ever be able to understand.
Well, actually... i am sure that the founders of religion were wisemen and they thought & researched about all of it, very long very hard. I am just saying that, within the range of human comprehension, they were able to identify some of the universal laws of this Godly force of Creation ; about what things can do bad and which things can do good in the limited context of earth life.
Imo, they realized that the God is way too abstract for the masses to understand. So they had to make their learnings into something the \'stupid\' masses could understand and thus, live by.
So they applied human context and comprehension to the phenomenon that is God ; they personified it - and imo, THAT is where alot of things went wrong, because - as Politiepet states ; humans are very quick to make (wrong) assumptions about things which are still not 100% scientifically proven ( most people will turn the card which has 3 on it ). Thus they create dogmatic reasons; such as stating that it "MUST be that God created man, to His image".
I believe, the foundation of religion is good, but is has turned into institutes of earthly power, people telling other people how they should live their lives with rigid rules, especially regarding sexuality. God\'s Word almighty, that\'s what they preach. Of course, we all know, that the Word is human language, human comprehension of what means what. They made their interpretations and assumptions about Godly force, into an absolute truth & law. That\'s where they went wrong imo.
Of course, i also do acknowledge that for alot of people, religion brings good and support to their lives. But following something blindly and feeling guilt of sin all the time, isn\'t the way forward imo.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on October 26, 2007, 03:31:28 AM
I\'ve always wondered one thing.
Why, as a society we don\'t devote some of our scientific resources to proving that there is a spirit or even "hauntings"? Sure, we have a small group here and there that try to prove or disprove the whole thing, but for the most part, we don\'t devote a decent sum of money to something that, I think is highly important. Instead, the scientific community would rather just say, "no, it doesn\'t exist". Just seems odd.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on October 26, 2007, 08:52:16 AM
you\'ve been watchin\' too much "ghost hunters" on sci-fi....:D i think that show is bulls**t...and before you say "this comin\' from a guy who believes in a higher spiritual being"...let me say that i do feel that they exist in some form or fashion...my wife is from haiti and she told me this story, about how the people over there is into voo-doo very seriously over there...anyway she states that she saw a pair of shoes just walk across the floor by themselves one time when she was younger.
I told her stop bulls**ting me, but to this day she honestly stands by it,...very deep into the tribal area\'s there are people there that practice some serious s**t....That movie "the serpent and the rainbow" was loosely based on that type of phenomenon....
The closet that i can say that i experienced anything close to that would be nightmares,....y\'know when your brain is asleep, but your conscious is awake and you can\'t move...and all i remember is like a cold deep chill on my neck and then a type of image approaching me, but i snap out of it right before it gets really close to make contact....weird...it\'s probably just involving the mind more than anything and not really anything of "ghosts or hauntings".
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on October 29, 2007, 05:46:07 PM
Quote from: clips
you\'ve been watchin\' too much "ghost hunters" on sci-fi....:D i think that show is bulls**t...and before you say "this comin\' from a guy who believes in a higher spiritual being"...let me say that i do feel that they exist in some form or fashion...my wife is from haiti and she told me this story, about how the people over there is into voo-doo very seriously over there...anyway she states that she saw a pair of shoes just walk across the floor by themselves one time when she was younger.
I told her stop bulls**ting me, but to this day she honestly stands by it,...very deep into the tribal area\'s there are people there that practice some serious s**t....That movie "the serpent and the rainbow" was loosely based on that type of phenomenon....
The closet that i can say that i experienced anything close to that would be nightmares,....y\'know when your brain is asleep, but your conscious is awake and you can\'t move...and all i remember is like a cold deep chill on my neck and then a type of image approaching me, but i snap out of it right before it gets really close to make contact....weird...it\'s probably just involving the mind more than anything and not really anything of "ghosts or hauntings".
i\'ve had the same thing happen to me when i was younger.. posted it at some ghost site.
and i quote
" One night while sleeping in my room, I awoke to what felt like something being sucked out of me. When I opened my eyes, I saw a figure floating at the end of my bed, but more vertical across my body. It started to move back and upright. It had no legs, was a pretty big and was a black figure with one of its arms reaching towards me. It\'s hand was bony but not bone. More elongated then anything. It looked like it had a hood on but I couldn\'t see any face.
I was freaking out pretty hard and trying to move but couldn\'t. I was paralyzed by it. After awhile, it slowly started to back away and moved (back first) through my window. I could then move and was freaked out. I stayed up all night and couldn\'t sleep for a few days. It hasn\'t happened since."
What made it more freaky is one of my mates had the exact same thing happen to him. Exact same to every last detail. Expect he was asleep on a couch. It probably is something like sleep paralysis, but you never know! :eek:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on October 29, 2007, 06:04:12 PM
Quote from: clips
you\'ve been watchin\' too much "ghost hunters" on sci-fi....:D i think that show is bulls**t...and before you say "this comin\' from a guy who believes in a higher spiritual being"...let me say that i do feel that they exist in some form or fashion...my wife is from haiti and she told me this story, about how the people over there is into voo-doo very seriously over there...anyway she states that she saw a pair of shoes just walk across the floor by themselves one time when she was younger.
I told her stop bulls**ting me, but to this day she honestly stands by it,...very deep into the tribal area\'s there are people there that practice some serious s**t....That movie "the serpent and the rainbow" was loosely based on that type of phenomenon....
The closet that i can say that i experienced anything close to that would be nightmares,....y\'know when your brain is asleep, but your conscious is awake and you can\'t move...and all i remember is like a cold deep chill on my neck and then a type of image approaching me, but i snap out of it right before it gets really close to make contact....weird...it\'s probably just involving the mind more than anything and not really anything of "ghosts or hauntings".
I do watch that show, but mainly for the entertainment value of them almost never finding anything, but hyping it up to appear that they did find something. My whole point was that as a culture, a lot of people generally believe in these things, but as a scientific modern society, we don\'t actually invest anything into proving or disproving that they exist at some level.
Quote
sleep paralysis
You\'re talking (or replying) to someone who has chronic sleep paralysis. Started about a year ago, suffer from it at least three times a week. Some scary shit.
Always loved that image. It really portrays how someone feels during a severe episode of sleep paralysis.
I\'ve pretty much came to the conclusion that mine is from, "Irregular sleeping schedules; naps, sleeping in, sleep deprivation". I work a swing shift, watch my kids when I\'m off and try to get in naps whenever possible. Almost always mine occurs during naps.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: THX on October 29, 2007, 08:03:41 PM
Another sleep paralysis sufferer right here. Anything from fake robbers coming into my room to spirits giving me a violent, mini seizure as I wake up. Fun!!
I swear by the time we die there\'ll be all these advancements in sleep research, which will make people\'s lives 3x better. If I got 8 hrs daily I\'d be in heaven... but it\'s midnight now and I\'m off to play Tekken online, wheeeeee!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on October 29, 2007, 08:12:30 PM
I can sleep 12 hours easy - but my schedule simply does not allow it.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on November 02, 2007, 06:32:58 PM
I usually only get 6 hours a night if im lucky.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on November 03, 2007, 12:41:02 AM
oh man...this thread again
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 03, 2007, 09:26:46 AM
Quote from: fre4d4
I usually only get 6 hours a night if im lucky.
what the fuck are you doing here? GTFO :)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on November 04, 2007, 08:07:45 AM
Quote from: politiepet
what the fuck are you doing here? GTFO :)
Why cause i don\'t sleep very well ?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Evi on November 04, 2007, 01:57:36 PM
He meant leave the site, but he\'s being a dick shit.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on November 04, 2007, 02:25:54 PM
you wanted the thread to end, and it died, but you resurrected the thread to say you dont sleep very well...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Paul2 on November 05, 2007, 08:47:22 AM
yeah, isn\'t that funny?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on November 05, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
you wanted the thread to end, and it died, but you resurrected the thread to say you dont sleep very well...
It\'s a miracle. Like Jesus bringing Lazarus back from the dead. The first written account of a zombie. Perhaps....the first zombie in history.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Joker on November 05, 2007, 11:30:55 AM
Quote from: Evi
He meant leave the site, but he\'s being a dick shit.
I hate when you get your dick covered in shit
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Phil on November 05, 2007, 12:22:03 PM
Shit pickle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBj3y-5RUh8
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on November 05, 2007, 12:33:03 PM
Quote from: Phil
Shit pickle?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBj3y-5RUh8
This also funny. Crummy movie. Director leaves during commentary recording. :laughing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVMvfCmbejA
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 05, 2007, 12:37:36 PM
wasn\'t he in the AVGN review of master shu and the drunkard hu?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on November 07, 2007, 07:47:01 AM
Politepet, i am not leaving
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 07, 2007, 07:51:38 AM
Who the fuck is politepet? Stop calling me that, I take everything people say about me on the internet very serious!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on November 07, 2007, 07:53:13 AM
Quote from: politiepet
Who the fuck is politepet? Stop calling me that, I take everything people say about me on the internet very serious!
You should be called NastyPet coz all cats are nasty.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 07, 2007, 07:56:07 AM
but.... I\'m not a cat... ?!?
you should be called owagadugu, cause... you know...
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on November 07, 2007, 07:59:38 AM
Quote from: politiepet
but.... I\'m not a cat... ?!?
you should be called owagadugu, cause... you know...
The fuck you ain\'t a cat! I called you a cat, so from now on, you a cat! A pussy cat! Got it? Today is Anti-Polite day. So FUCK YOU! :mad:
;)
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 07, 2007, 08:01:36 AM
whatever you say owagadugu
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: GmanJoe on November 07, 2007, 09:13:25 AM
I give up. What is owagadugu?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Knotter8 on November 07, 2007, 10:08:12 AM
Quote from: GmanJoe
I give up. What is owagadugu?
It sure ain\'t a Police (officer) Cap
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on November 07, 2007, 12:57:25 PM
What is a "politie" anyway?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on November 07, 2007, 01:06:00 PM
Po-lice.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: fre4d4 on November 07, 2007, 03:58:59 PM
I have to admit i like the police cap better then that LSD dancing cat.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on November 07, 2007, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: Samwise
Po-lice.
then what\'s the pet part?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: THX on November 07, 2007, 06:29:41 PM
I love Polite Cat!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on November 07, 2007, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: Titan
then what\'s the pet part?
It means cap/hat. Knotter8 already said all this right above your first post...
And if you\'re still unsure, just check Politiepet\'s avatar. :D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: politiepet on November 07, 2007, 11:26:08 PM
Quote from: GmanJoe
I give up. What is owagadugu?
well, that\'s you silly! :gfight:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on November 08, 2007, 02:02:18 AM
Quote from: Samwise
It means cap/hat. Knotter8 already said all this right above your first post...
And if you\'re still unsure, just check Politiepet\'s avatar. :D
whooo child!...lock me up and throw away the key!....:gfight:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on November 08, 2007, 09:02:33 PM
Getting back to the extra-ordinary life and creation topic,...what and where do you think we were back in the 1800\'s, 1300\'s 700 bc?....what i\'m sayin is that since the human race has been here for i guess thousands of years, where were we before we were born?...were we just in a void of nothingness? when we were born, all we know is that we\'re just "here", but for all of those years, was it just darkness? And what determined who we are as people? I mean i was born african american, but i could have as easily have been born a caucasion(spel) but what determined this factor? what actually stopped me from being born as somebody else in this forum? Again when we are born we just play the cards we\'re dealt and we just know that we are here. For instance what determined Vid to be the person he is racially? what determined that fact? why wasn\'t he born let\'s say chinese?....In other words, who\'s passin out the genetic and racial makeup of who we are before we are even born? what force at hand is responsible for this?
Heh...i know that last part is kinda head-sprung, but sometimes i think about that, well mostly the part about where we were for all of those years of us not bein\' born, even before our parents were born,...that\'s alot of years of just sitting in limbo waiting to be born,... and what of the millions that have died since the beginning of time? I know what i believe from a religious standpoint, but steppin\' outta the box and lookin\' from a practical and scientific standpoint what happens to those that have died since then? are they in eternal sleep or are they truly dead?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on November 08, 2007, 09:14:41 PM
That\'s why we have the "Missing Link." Somehow, they know the first homosapien was in Africa...how they know that i have no idea. Before us was cro magnum\'s (sp?) and stuff like that. Why were born what we are? that\'s not really a question anything can answer.
and the force at hand for races, people adapt to where they are. Africans are black because of their environment. The sun is brutal..UK is a bunch of white people because the sun never hits the surface there (sarcasm)..northern italians are darker because of the sun, etc.
and noone will answer what\'s after death..the best idea iv heard is \'do you remember anything before you\'re birth? that\'s death
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on November 09, 2007, 09:14:24 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
That\'s why we have the "Missing Link." Somehow, they know the first homosapien was in Africa...how they know that i have no idea. Before us was cro magnum\'s (sp?) and stuff like that. Why were born what we are? that\'s not really a question anything can answer.
Cro-magnum man was pretty much just like us except a bit stockier. From what I read, they evolved into us. If you saw one on the street, he would be indistinguishable to man today. Man today evolved as his society evolved; became slimmer and more adapted to settled life. Humans today are a bunch of pussies :)
Oh, and they know we came from Africa through tracing DNA. I saw this in my geography class. It was really quite cool. They took every race\'s, ethnicities DNA and started to trace them back and they eventually actually traced everyone back to this tribe in Africa. The tribe actually have features of every race. The eye slits for Asians, European noses I think, etc.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 11, 2007, 04:34:51 AM
Quote from: Viper_Fujax
and noone will answer what\'s after death..the best idea iv heard is \'do you remember anything before you\'re birth? that\'s death
how much do u remember directly after being born.. whats that? death too!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Samwise on November 11, 2007, 05:10:24 AM
I think Epicurus said it best. And because I\'m lazy, here is what the Wikipedia entry said:
When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not. All sensation and consciousness ends with death and therefore in death there is neither pleasure nor pain. The fear of death arises from the false belief that in death there is awareness.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 11, 2007, 09:45:50 PM
was he fully dead (no brain function or heart beat) ?
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on March 31, 2008, 11:01:07 AM
I was just reading the last few pages of this thread, and i gotta say,..members here posted some really fascinating and interesting and strong perpectives on the subject at hand,...which brings me to this question and it\'s not as emaculent as the creator of all things question, but it\'s somewhat along those lines,...so is mankind destined to always fight and war with one another?....we\'re supposed to be the smartest beings on the planet yet, we have been fighting each-other since the beginning of time.
Even animals themselves fight each-other tho on a lower level for survival,..and even different species of ants and insects fight each-other, so is it in man\'s genetic makeup to be the most dominating being on the planet, even if it means conquering others?...and what if other intelligent life existed on say mars, venus and saturn that was better or on par with humanities own? and say that these planets had an abundant supply of resources thast the earth could use,...do you think that that man would actually wage a war of some sort if the planets involved, were unwilling to offer some of their resources?
On another note when i look at snapshots of the earth from space, the earth looks like a peaceful oil painting, but beneath the surface is just overrun with fantastical violence and strife,...it seems the violence starts from even the smallest of cell forms all the way up to mankind,...and sometimes i wonder whoever created us whether godlike being or not,...if we are just part of this grand experiment to see how long we can keep this thing called life and humanity in general going....
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on March 31, 2008, 12:30:25 PM
Clips, I believe man is in his nature to be territorial. All animals are like this. Its not just survival. If I bring a new cat into my house, my cat will be highly territorial and would fight the other cat. This actually happened. Where I used to live, the neighbors cat would always invade my cats turf and would fight to get it out.
Chimps do the same. They war over territory. Sometimes they are extremely brutal, often canibalizing the dead of the rival group who lsot.
Humans are the same way. We are highly territorial. Its like a redneck going outside with a shotgun to "protect his land". Same thing with all wars from the beginning of man. They were either fought over land or beliefs and humans, because we have cognitive thought, have a double edged sword when it comes to war. All other animals fight over territory but we also fight over ideas, like the Crusades. Though even wars of ideas are wars of territory. You win the territory to spread your ideas. I think humans are cursed and granted a gift when it comes to our thoughts.
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on April 01, 2008, 07:23:37 AM
Quote from: Titan
Clips, I believe man is in his nature to be territorial. All animals are like this. Its not just survival. If I bring a new cat into my house, my cat will be highly territorial and would fight the other cat. This actually happened. Where I used to live, the neighbors cat would always invade my cats turf and would fight to get it out.
Chimps do the same. They war over territory. Sometimes they are extremely brutal, often canibalizing the dead of the rival group who lsot.
Humans are the same way. We are highly territorial. Its like a redneck going outside with a shotgun to "protect his land". Same thing with all wars from the beginning of man. They were either fought over land or beliefs and humans, because we have cognitive thought, have a double edged sword when it comes to war. All other animals fight over territory but we also fight over ideas, like the Crusades. Though even wars of ideas are wars of territory. You win the territory to spread your ideas. I think humans are cursed and granted a gift when it comes to our thoughts.
:confused:
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on April 01, 2008, 10:10:06 AM
it\'s not so much territory as it is power. but they do go hand in hand sometimes..but power is more about money, which is why our capitalist system is far from perfect. greed is why most of our clothes are made by workers who get 3 cents an hour, yet they can still charge as much as they do..and why our news stations are a joke.
anyway, i digress :D. but fighting is for power. Right now, the middle east wants power, and we don\'t want them to have any. the cold war is the best example since the russians arent mind-fucked extremists
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on April 01, 2008, 11:59:28 AM
But the Cold War was also still about territory as it was power. When the Soviets were trying to put in missiles in Cuba, we felt threatened because it was basically in our territory. They could hit us anywhere. They felt the same way when we had missiles in Turkey. But at the same time it was about power. They were able to say "we have power over you by having missiles right at your doorstep".
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on April 01, 2008, 12:23:39 PM
we didnt want nukes in cuba because they could launch them from cuba and hit us..they\'d have to fly over us from russia to drop a nuke, which would be more difficult for them to pull off..the only ones threatened by nukes when they didnt have the launch sites on cuba were our allies overseas. with the sites on cuba they had a lot more power in the situation, and it was even completely in their hands had they decided to make a move
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on April 08, 2009, 04:30:46 AM
I was just thinking, and bare with me...my mind just goes off thinkin\' about crazy s**t when i work at night...so anyway..isn\'t it funny how the brain works? In terms of dreaming? I know the brain stores memories, but it even stores characteristcs of people you\'re involved with in your life.
What i\'m saying is that if i have a dream and my wife or family members are in it, they act exactly the same way they do as in when i\'m not dreaming and it(my brain) matches their voices to these people perfectly. What is a bit mysterious is that sometimes there are people in my dream that i know that i haven\'t seen before,...or maybe this could just be a random stranger that my brain just happened to remember, but my conscience has not remembered.
While dreaming it recognizes that my wife is actually my wife and she reacts with the same characteristcs as do my children and all of my other family members...i think it\'s just wierd in how the brain actually creates this little cinema in your head and maps these electronic pulses or images of people you know and have them react accordingly(even tho the brain is supposed to be actually resting)....everytime i think about how the brain functions, i\'m always a bit fascinated by it....i still find myself tryin\' to connect the dream/nightmare factor that the brain triggers.
i still think the nightmare side of it deals with the way you are sleeping or sleep paralysis as it\'s called...when you can\'t move but you are awake? but why is it that there is always something of a paranormal presence or activity goin\' on during these moments? that s**t is scary.....heh i know i touched on a couple of different things here and some of it is a little head sprung, but i luv stuff like this that deals with how the brain works.
*this thread touched on alot of different and similar subjects, which is why i didn\'t start a new thread*
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Jumpman on April 08, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
Why don’t black people ever dream anymore?
Cause the last black person to have a dream got shot!
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: clips on February 27, 2010, 03:58:56 AM
Recently, my dreams have been involving me as a kid lately...wierd...my friends too....we were just going to the store to get a pack of now&laters...sheeit do they even make those anymore?....yeah that was the candy of choice back in tha day...:fro:
And i was going to touch on how the brain even knows how to present their voice exactly as i remember it....i also was going to to question how the brain places people in your dreams that you have never before seen your life,...but that can be attributed to the brain just taking random snapshots of people when you\'re out and about( at the mall, at gman\'s and chizzy\'s sister house etc) without you even recognizing it.....i know i already touched on this a bit above, but i\'m always amused by how the brain works.
And jumpy...that\'s just not right...:(....:D
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Viper_Fujax on March 05, 2010, 11:15:28 AM
a bible thumping thread, how handy. I didnt want to make a new thread
I never realized how many religious nut jobs read cnn. Granted all these earthquakes are unsettling (especially when you live in cali), but these people are some grade-A freaks. Every earthquake I see way too many comments of "this is the second coming" and "read Matthew 124124:12414124 and repent!"
peoples trippin
Title: Bible Thumper gets thumped
Post by: Titan on March 06, 2010, 09:02:56 AM
Weird. I thought it was Fox News that attracted more bible thumpers.