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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 08:07:11 AM

Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 08:07:11 AM
Paranoid :) I place my order for my PC today woo hoo!!
going through some last minute changes

I was originally buying this mobo
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2945261&sku=E145-2014

this processor
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2956463&sku=CP1-DUO-Q6600%20P

this ram
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2967705&CatId=2531

and this card
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3094833&sku=E145-8800

but they have an offer for a motherboard and processor in one instead of separate.
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3329206&CatId=2406


would it be smarter to buy the processor / mobo separate or buy them in the included deal and if so is everything I listed still compatible?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 08:17:01 AM
no idea.  which is better though?

its seems like the combo saved you $38 than buying seperate.

$552 for the combo, compare to $590 for buying them seperatedly.  Then, that\'s a no brainer.  Just get the combo then...

but lets samwise, thx, mm, knotter8, soulgrind, etc. chime in on this one just to be sure.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 08:24:26 AM
yeah the money saving is the obvious part, i\'m just unsure about the tech aspects. Well I have an idea I should say, but as i\'ve said in the past , I have never spent this kind of money so I tend to ask obvious questions and re ask them numerous times :) i\'d rather be safe than sorry ya know?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 01, 2007, 08:28:07 AM
I\'m just gonna point out that the new 8800 GT is very fast and cheeeeap. So you could save some money there... or hell, you could buy two for SLI. :)

Also, there are new GTS parts coming in December, which are supposed to pretty kewl as well.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 08:38:39 AM
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3436163&body=MAIN#detailspecs - this thingy?

I was thinking about it, but with the video card I want without question the best on the market. I would wait until december but I just can\'t :) I want this PC in the mail and on its way to my house ASAP :)

Is that card compatible with that motherboard? and is a 1000w power supply enough to power 2 gt\'s? this site has minimum system requirements but not recommended
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 01, 2007, 08:42:26 AM
1000W is more than enough. :)

I know that website is in Kanadadadian monies, but it shouldn\'t cost more than $250-ish, just FYI. :)

I\'ll check out your other hardware ASAP and tell you what I think. But I just got a new gfx card myself, and I wanna install it nooooow. :p
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 08:49:00 AM
Samwise, isn\'t joker more important your graphic card?  you should spend some more quality time with him.  or at least gives him a reach-around before you do your things.:D
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 01, 2007, 08:51:00 AM
I\'ll toss his salad after I\'m done here. :p
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 08:53:24 AM
:laughing:
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 01, 2007, 09:09:52 AM
The other hardware looks great Joker. The bundle is fine. :)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Knotter8 on November 01, 2007, 09:50:27 AM
Still... I\'d say spending +600 on that 8800 Ultra is a bit waisted ; i suggest the 8800GT for 200, then upgrade later to new cards
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 10:05:31 AM
yeah, no doubt.  that\'s even more expensive than the motherboard and cpu combined.

I just don\'t understand it, what\'s about just a graphic card that makes you guys spend that much?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 01, 2007, 10:07:44 AM
Personally I\'d never buy more than a 8800 GT, but that\'s just me. I\'m a cheap SOB. ;)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Knotter8 on November 01, 2007, 10:37:53 AM
Quote from: Paul2
yeah, no doubt.  that\'s even more expensive than the motherboard and cpu combined.

I just don\'t understand it, what\'s about just a graphic card that makes you guys spend that much?


the point is to hit the \'sweet spot\' ;) .. and yes, that has to do with timing ;

both Nvidia\'s & Ati\'s new architectures are well underway... why would anyone buy a current gen card at a premium price ? The value of that card, both in terms of resell value and performance compared to new line cards will devaluate extra rapidly.

Atm, that 8800GT is THE sweetspot card.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 01, 2007, 10:54:38 AM
use this http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

it\'ll tell u what you need in the way of a psu. 1kW is alittle overkill.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 01, 2007, 01:23:36 PM
600 Watt PSU is fine.
1000Watt is overkill.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 04:07:30 PM
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3329206&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - Processor / motherboard bundle
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3329206&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET- Video Card
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3329206&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET -RAM
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2968565&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET -DVD Burner
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2776974&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET -Power Supply
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2522671&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - Mouse
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2479583&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - Headset
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2479583&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - Keyboard
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1389579&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - Case
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=564538&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=CANLET - HDD

Just placed my order not 10 minutes ago :) in the order processing stage now. I went with an 850w PSU instead of a 1000 and I stuck with the 8800 Ultra. I know its a more expensive but I know exactly what i\'m getting. I\'m only going to spend this kind of money once so I figure i\'d go for the best of the best. EVGA also has a 90 day step up thing, so if they make a more powerful card within 90 days I can trade in the Ultra for it.

Right now I just got a dinky monitor with max resolution of 1024 x 768. I do have a 24 inch LCD Samsung monitor coming to properly match this type of rig but that is a birthday present so I have to wait until December 26th to hook up to that thing.

Now I just need a copy of vista next pay and 2 more gb of ram and I should be set :) now bring on the games!
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 04:33:55 PM
Quote from: Knotter8


the point is to hit the \'sweet spot\' ;) .. and yes, that has to do with timing ;

both Nvidia\'s & Ati\'s new architectures are well underway... why would anyone buy a current gen card at a premium price ? The value of that card, both in terms of resell value and performance compared to new line cards will devaluate extra rapidly.

Atm, that 8800GT is THE sweetspot card.

so, you mean that its sure is expensive, but it won\'t be obsolete in a short time?  is still could be very good in 3 or 4 years?

i don\'t understand the resell value part though.  You can actually resell it at the same price or higher as time goes by?  what?:confused:
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 04:49:21 PM
Joker,

one comment.  its interesting you could spend over $200 for a power supply, and over $600 for a graphic card.  But you decided to get 250 GBytes HDD for only $80...

Why not go with like 500 GBytes HDD or higher because you never know when you could runs out of space quick.  Also, another curiosity question, why do you need to purchase a mouse and keyboard?  why not just use the current keyboard and mouse you are having right now?  Its also interesting that you spend nearly $80 for the mouse, which is about the same price tag of the 250 GB HDD.  its just that i am curious that you spend a lot of dough on many other areas, but goes a bit cheap on the HDD...

i thought 850 Watts is still a bit overkill, i doubt you will ever needed that much power to power the whole computer.  But it couldn\'t hurt though i guess...your choice...
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 05:36:25 PM
Because I already have another 250gb HD in the computer i\'m currently on which will just go inside the new one as a backup. The mouse / keyboard I bought for no other reason than I just wanted them :P as Raz said its a gaming mouse and this PC was built for gaming . Plus its blue! isn\'t it pretty?

and I plan to SLI in the future so 850 watts isn\'t overkill for 2 cards.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 01, 2007, 05:38:22 PM
Quote from: Paul2
Joker,

one comment.  its interesting you could spend over $200 for a power supply, and over $600 for a graphic card.  But you decided to get 250 GBytes HDD for only $80...

Why not go with like 500 GBytes HDD or higher because you never know when you could runs out of space quick.  Also, another curiosity question, why do you need to purchase a mouse and keyboard?  why not just use the current keyboard and mouse you are having right now?  Its also interesting that you spend nearly $80 for the mouse, which is about the same price tag of the 250 GB HDD.  its just that i am curious that you spend a lot of dough on many other areas, but goes a bit cheap on the HDD...

i thought 850 Watts is still a bit overkill, i doubt you will ever needed that much power to power the whole computer.  But it couldn\'t hurt though i guess...your choice...


Uhm..

Gaming mouse = the shit.  That may be why he is spending that much on a ...GAMING mouse.  Get a mouse that can switch DPI on the fly and what not, it helps a lot in FPS shooters. Gaming keyboards on the other hand, are debatable. I don\'t own one and honestly, I doubt they give you much an advantage, but I still want a sweet Logitech G15.

Also, I seriously doubt he is going to run out of 250 gigs "fast". In fact, if this is a gaming PC, with an install of Vista, he has more than enough space.  Hell, if he wants pure performance, I\'d recommend just getting a 150gig Raptor X or something along those lines.

Yes, 850 watts is overkill for ONE Ultra. However, if he ever decided to SLi, add more HD\'s, add fans , another DVD-ROM, he could easily need that 850 watts. Fact is, if I keep adding to mine, I\'ll have to upgrade my PSU. It\'s a lot easier than you think to end up needing more power, so I always advise buying more than you currently need.

One more thing,Joker, as for Vista, honestly, if you\'re going to game, don\'t install Vista yet .  Right now every game that uses DirecX10 takes a huge hit on the FPS, even with an Ultra and 4 gigs of ram. Not to mention, there isn\'t a huge increase in image quality currently.  I\'d advise getting your RAM, throw it in (XP will notice 3 gigs), keep running XP and enjoy it, save your money and wait for Vista SP 1 and even then, just pick up Home, you don\'t need Ultimate.

Quote
both Nvidia\'s & Ati\'s new architectures are well underway... why would anyone buy a current gen card at a premium price ? The value of that card, both in terms of resell value and performance compared to new line cards will devaluate extra rapidly.  


This is what bugs me.  Everyone says this, every generation and for what? You can always play the waiting game when it comes to this stuff, or you can just on board and buy out the ass for what is currently the best.  Personally, I don\'t see any thing to suggest that Nvidia is about to launch a new architecture, as the 8800 is still HUGELY succesful for them.

And yes, the GT is the "sweet spot" card.  If you\'re on a budget , I\'d recommend getting two of those and SLI\'ing them. Also keep in mind he has a 24 inch LCD coming in, a GT is really going to struggle at MAX resolution on that card.  

Congrat\'s Joker, your rig is better than mine. Hell, I don\'t have a Quad card (will once AMD rolls out theirs tho\'!).
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 01, 2007, 05:42:13 PM
Thanks again for the help Raz :) it is much appreciated, and i\'m just getting Vista now because i\'ll need it some day eventually. I am putting a 2nd HDD in the case so i\'m gonna have XP on one and Vista on the other. I was going to solely use vista but i\'ve heard too many horror stories about it.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 01, 2007, 06:29:51 PM
how much power does an ultra graphic card need?  and how much does the SLI need too?  nevermind, i just check to see how much power a SLi card use.  and wow, over 100 Watts of power...that\'s a lot of power there...
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 01, 2007, 10:34:55 PM
Yeah, a SLI Ultra setup is a power hog. I wouldn\'t even try it without a 1000watt and this isn\'t even taking into account the heat issue you\'re going to face.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Knotter8 on November 02, 2007, 04:57:26 AM
It all depends on what he\'s willing to spend also on the long term.

Energy bill 1000W psu + Ultra vs energy bill 600W psu + GT = difference to think about. idle & load.

Also, rumour has it Ati\'s RV670 went well, so i really question the longevity of that +$600 Ultra card.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-hd-3800-dx-10,review-29720.html (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-hd-3800-dx-10,review-29720.html)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 02, 2007, 07:51:10 AM
Honestly I really don\'t care for ATI products. If I upgrade my ultra, which I won\'t be doing for at least 1 year it will be to a new Nvidia card. I know we got some rabid ATI supporters on this board but I have been burned by them in the past. When I do upgrade my card, unless ATI puts out the card of the century I will be waiting for Nvidia.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 02, 2007, 08:04:32 AM
It doesn\'t seem like ATI will be competitive any time soon anyway, so no worries. :)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 02, 2007, 01:04:54 PM
They just called to confirm the order. It will be here in 4-5 business days!! First thing I get I think will be TF2, so I want to get some games in with yourself, raz, and luke and anyone else who plays it.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 02, 2007, 01:23:17 PM
Screw ATI. I was gun-ho for ATI when I built this PC, but crossfire is a mess and the 2900\'s simply don\'t match up with what Nvidia offers.

And Joker, get TF2. Awesome game.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 02, 2007, 08:27:48 PM
Downloading TF2 off of steam as I type this. I was sick from work today, came down with a cold. Perfect chance to buy a new game haha. I remember in another thread Sammy mentioned that I should have no problems running TF2. Of course I can\'t run it on high settings, but I can hold out for another week :)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: §ôµÏG®ïñD on November 02, 2007, 09:00:13 PM
Quote from: Knotter8
It all depends on what he\'s willing to spend also on the long term.

Energy bill 1000W psu + Ultra vs energy bill 600W psu + GT = difference to think about. idle & load.

Also, rumour has it Ati\'s RV670 went well, so i really question the longevity of that +$600 Ultra card.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-hd-3800-dx-10,review-29720.html (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-hd-3800-dx-10,review-29720.html)

energy bill won\'t change much. PSU don\'t draw the full wattage or more because of size. Only thing that will make a difference is the cards, and that difference wouldn\'t be huge.  The 1000W rating doesn\'t mean it draws 1kWh It means its rated up to 1kW Peak. The Computer will draw what it needs from the PSU.
5000+ AMD 64bit X2, 2x Sata 2 drives, 3 DDR2 sticks, 2x 8800U sli\'d, Fan controller, 2 cathodes, 3 fans LED dvdrw and cdrw, TV tuner card = 607W  This pc would be a pretty full on pc, and it doesn\'t draw anywhere near 1kw.
Although not perfectly accurate. It wouldn\'t be far off.  Only good thing about a 1kW system is it\'ll have more stable rails and lower currents drawn.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 02, 2007, 09:12:08 PM
yeah, i checked that calculator measurement site that you posted, and it said it ate over 200 watts for 2 ultra cards SLi.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 03, 2007, 01:26:17 AM
Quote from: Joker
Downloading TF2 off of steam as I type this. I was sick from work today, came down with a cold. Perfect chance to buy a new game haha. I remember in another thread Sammy mentioned that I should have no problems running TF2. Of course I can\'t run it on high settings, but I can hold out for another week :)

Well I hope I was right. :P

But worst case senario you\'ll just have to wait a week. ;)
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 03, 2007, 03:36:43 AM
It\'s the Source engine, it will run on a friggin\' Commodore 64.

:D

Add me, Joker.
M1000BE
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: JBean on November 03, 2007, 05:53:50 AM
yeah, I wouldn\'t have sprung for the ultra this late in it\'s lifecycle.. the 8800gt is less than 300 bucks and almost matches the performance.  Two in SLi would beat it in many scenarios and still saved you a few hundered.

But like you said, you wanted the best of the best so I can\'t fault you there.  Have fun :thumb:
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 03, 2007, 07:44:02 AM
Yeah Jbean, picking out the video card was easily the most frustrating part. Like I said, I had already spent a couple months reading about the Ultra over and over and then Sammy brought up the GT like 2 hours before I placed my order so I just said screw it, I knew what I wanted and didn\'t feel like changing a major component that late in the game and for my monitor thats on the way I figured it was the most secure option, it is an Ultra after all so even if new and better cards come out I have no problems saying I have the 2nd or 3rd best card on the market.

As for TF2 I finished downloading the game at 2am and didn\'t get to bed until about 6am. The game runs great on this computer and the game itself is as much fun as I thought it would be. Seeing screenshots and videos of it is one thing, but to play it is a whole other ball game, i\'m really in love with the art direction here and I don\'t think i\'ve played anything other than engineer yet. God I love my sentry guns. I love how they gave the classes a personality this time around. I can see many many hours in the future slipping away because of this game.

Got you added now Raz, add Chaos Rising, I think thats my name >.>

Also with SLI could I put a GT inside to go with the Ultra, seeing as they are both DX10 cards or does it have to be 2 Ultras?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 03, 2007, 09:24:34 AM
I\'m no expert on SLI, but I\'m pretty sure they have to be the same kind (2xUltra, 2xGT).
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 03, 2007, 01:31:47 PM
2 Ultra\'s,  it also helps if it\'s the exact same ULTRA brand / model, as if you put a slower one in, it\'ll underclock the other one.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Paul2 on November 03, 2007, 03:35:14 PM
that is interesting.  didn\'t know that.  so two cards SLi aren\'t as flexible as i thought.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 03, 2007, 04:51:13 PM
Nor are two Crossfire.  Anytime you have a higher clocked card and a lower clocked card, if they even work together, the higher clocked card will clock slower to match the other card.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: JBean on November 03, 2007, 06:42:44 PM
it used to be that you had to have two of the EXACT same videocards (same Maunuf. same Bios.. everything) at least now you can pair up a EVGA & a BFG or whatever... a little more flexible now than when SLi first came out
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 07, 2007, 12:14:56 AM
computer arrived today and on the box of the mobo it says DDR2 800MHZ. Its the same mobo from the bundle deal I listed earlier but I think I wasted 189$ buying PC8500 RAM.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 07, 2007, 12:35:16 AM
Lol sorry, I would have mentioned... I thought maybe you were into overclocking or something. :D

Don\'t worry too much about it, it just means you have more headroom.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: JBean on November 07, 2007, 05:37:43 AM
those quad cores overclock pretty good, since you got the ram to do it might as well. :thumb:
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 07, 2007, 05:48:31 AM
I have to overclock the processor to make the memory compatible with the motherboard? *brain explodes*

I called the site I purchased everything from and they do accept returns on the ram so I think i\'ll do that. Would I of seen a large difference in performance from the 1066mhz ram?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Samwise on November 07, 2007, 08:04:28 AM
No no, you don\'t have to overclock the RAM, it just means you can. The Q6600 runs at 266 MHz fsb (x 9). With your RAM you could (in theory) overclock to more than 500 MHz. But it is more than what\'s needed... Personally I have PC6400 RAM, and it\'s fine for my use.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: JBean on November 07, 2007, 10:06:51 AM
no, you don\'t have to overclock the memory in order to use it with that motherboard, like Samwise said.. it just means that you have more potential to have an easier time overclocking than someone with slower memory.

Memory will downclock to whatever your board is capable of running, the thing is, nearly all computer components are capable of actually running faster than they are configured to run stock (memory, FSB on the motherboard, CPU, videocard)

I would return the memory and get slightly cheaper stuff that will run exactly the same as that expensive stuff you bought (at stock settings).  It\'s like buying a Ferrari and only driving it the speed limit.. why even buy it then when a honda civic would do just as well for much less?
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 07, 2007, 11:12:53 AM
I took it in to be built today, I was going to buy 4GB there and return what I had purchased but the guy said to keep what I already bought and he would overclock the motherboard / processor for me. So I ended up keeping the RAM, don\'t know if that was a mistake or not but its done with now.

I had to take the ultra out of the box just to see it, that thing is massive. The case is also quite a bit bigger than I expected but it looks great. I did buy the wrong HDD, I mistakenly got an IDE I think its called? and not the Sata I wanted. So I am still able to return that and get credit put back onto my card and I bought the one I originally intended to at the shop.

I work all day tomorrow so I won\'t be able to pick it up but I will grab it the next day and i\'ve purchased Bioshock to play on it :) Right now I have the headphones / mouse / keyboard hooked up. The sound is amazing and the mouse will take some getting use to as it is my first real gaming mouse. The keyboard just looks cool and is quite massive.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: JBean on November 07, 2007, 12:41:46 PM
:nopics:
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 07, 2007, 12:53:14 PM
I has no camera!!! Plus i\'d like to have the nice monitor hooked up to it before I start showing it off. To steal your analogy, it would be like a Ferrari stuck in first gear while hooked up to this dinky thing.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Raz The Friggin Grea on November 07, 2007, 02:44:04 PM
Nothing wrong with IDE - I wouldn\'t bother returning it because it\'s IDE, that\'s for sure.
Title: Opinions please, is this a good buy?
Post by: Joker on November 07, 2007, 03:09:48 PM
Already mailed it back, paid 85.99 for it. The one I bought today was 90.