PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Jumpman on October 07, 2008, 03:52:57 PM
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Tell that to the Soviet Union.
Doctors and Garbage Men should not be making the same amount of money.
I don\'t see socialism as communism.
Universal healthcare. The US needs it. Pretty simple stuff.
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I don\'t see socialism as communism.
Universal healthcare. The US needs it. Pretty simple stuff.
but then I\'ll have to wait so long to see the doctor as there will be more patients but not more doctors. I suffer as a result of this, and I didn\'t do anything to deserve it. Aren\'t there free clinics for the uninsured?
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but then I\'ll have to wait so long to see the doctor as there will be more patients but not more doctors. I suffer as a result of this, and I didn\'t do anything to deserve it. Aren\'t there free clinics for the uninsured?
That\'s the idea...everyone can get healthcare. And coming from Canada the longer wait stories are bs. If you get sick/hurt, then you\'re going in. % is the same as both countries. GB, France, and Canada. First world countries with working universal healthcare showing that the US could easily do it too.
Maybe the people without healthcare suffer because of you. Silly logic goes both ways.
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I support neither candidate.
Please..this is bad comedy..:rofl:....just say you support McCain....every chance you get you\'re criticizing Obama,..you\'re just as bad as giga in that sense....
As far as universal healthcare goes, even tho both candidates have talked about it, i don\'t think that structure would sit well with americans,..i mean it would be great,...but folks from both the republican & democratic sides have stated for us to have that structure in the way it\'s set up in canada, there would have to be massive tax increases to support it.
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That\'s the idea...everyone can get healthcare. And coming from Canada the longer wait stories are bs. If you get sick/hurt, then you\'re going in. % is the same as both countries. GB, France, and Canada. First world countries with working universal healthcare showing that the US could easily do it too.
Maybe the people without healthcare suffer because of you. Silly logic goes both ways.
For the US, 300 million people, over half of them fat asses....over half of them don\'t exercise, over half of them aren\'t healthy....it would work for countries with a small population...but not the US. I think the US is 3rd in terms of population. That\'s a lot of fat fucks.
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Maybe if more of those fat fucks were able to go to a doctor who said to them "Change what you\'re eating or you\'re GOING TO DIE," there would be fewer of them.
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Please..this is bad comedy..:rofl:....just say you support McCain....every chance you get you\'re criticizing Obama,..you\'re just as bad as giga in that sense....
As far as universal healthcare goes, even tho both candidates have talked about it, i don\'t think that structure would sit well with americans,..i mean it would be great,...but folks from both the republican & democratic sides have stated for us to have that structure in the way it\'s set up in canada, there would have to be massive tax increases to support it.
Find a post of mine where I say I support John McCain. Just because I hate one candidate doesn\'t mean I like the other. I will not, and won\'t ever, vote for McCain. However, no one is more out of line with my views than Obama.
I believe in the Campaign for Liberty.
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Maybe if more of those fat fucks were able to go to a doctor who said to them "Change what you\'re eating or you\'re GOING TO DIE," there would be fewer of them.
FREE CLINICS
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Maybe if more of those fat fucks were able to go to a doctor who said to them "Change what you\'re eating or you\'re GOING TO DIE," there would be fewer of them.
NEWS FLASH!
You don\'t need a doctor to tell you you\'re fat. I can do that for free and save tax payers a lard of money. It\'s a sad sad day if you need a doctor to tell you that you\'re going to die coz you\'re fat.
See? this is what I\'m talking about. The wasted money on not just fat people but DUMB people who need experts to tell them the obvious. And who pays for that common sense advice (which should be free and not take up the long queues to see a doctor)? We do. The tax payers.
Screw that. I say you idiots elect ME as DICTATOR of the UNITED STATES and I promise to put every fat person on a tread mill to generate electricity.
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Screw that. I say you idiots elect ME as DICTATOR of the UNITED STATES and I promise to put every fat person on a tread mill to generate electricity.
LOL! :D That was actually funny.
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Universal health care is a long way from doctors and garbage men sharing a salary.
Whether or not you go to school, whether or not you\'re a famous actor, whether or not you\'re black or white, living in the United States of America should guarantee you some affordable health care.
It works in other countries, it would work here.
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Universal health care is a long way from doctors and garbage men sharing a salary.
Whether or not you go to school, whether or not you\'re a famous actor, whether or not you\'re black or white, living in the United States of America should guarantee you some affordable health care.
It works in other countries, it would work here.
By affordable do you mean universal? Who is going to pay for it? Are we going to cover illegal aliens too? I certainly don\'t want to give coverage to any non US Citizen. I also don\'t think it is right that I should wait in line with jobless bums to see a doctor. This would be the beginning of a welfare state.
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This is why people dislike America. Attitudes that scream, "WE ARE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD" but "IF YOU ARE POOR LOL YOU\'RE FUCKED".
For the US, 300 million people, over half of them fat asses....over half of them don\'t exercise, over half of them aren\'t healthy....it would work for countries with a small population...but not the US. I think the US is 3rd in terms of population. That\'s a lot of fat fucks.
More population=more people to tax=more money=easier to implement.
I\'m fairly certain the US is the only 1st world country without some kind of universal healthcare.
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People are poor for a reason. I wasn\'t born into wealth, I went to school, took out loans to attend college, and then got a job that offered health insurance.
If I can do it, why can\'t the "poor" do it? This is precisely the reason I don\'t give money to beggars on the street. I\'d be more inclined to give them a job application.
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People are poor for a reason. I wasn\'t born into wealth, I went to school, took out loans to attend college, and then got a job that offered health insurance.
If I can do it, why can\'t the "poor" do it? This is precisely the reason I don\'t give money to beggars on the street. I\'d be more inclined to give them a job application.
Because there aren\'t even enough jobs that can give health insurance.
So Americans are the greedy bastards the rest of the world pegs them out to be?
Putting a price tag on the right to breathe and live just seems wrong. The health industry just runs wild with the profits.
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There would be more jobs if companies weren\'t taxed so much. In order for universal healthcare to exist taxes need to be raised.
A vicious cycle yes, but one that taxing or universal healthcare doesn\'t solve.
It\'s need greed, it\'s called liberty. The government has no right to take the things that belong to me.
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Circular logic hurts my head.
The goverment can and should take away on the healthcare issue. WHAT GOD GIVETH HE CAN TAKETH...or something like that.
It\'s not even universal healthcare...health insurance is a broken system in itself.
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I think the current system is better because it is an incentive for people to get a job, even if it is not a desirable one. If we had universal healthcare than the incentive for people to seek work lessens. This is precisely the reason I am against welfare. Anything that discourages people from getting a job should be eliminated.
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But where\'s your proof?
I\'d like to site...every other 1st world country as my proof.
I think you\'re just interested in spouting some rehearsed liberty lines while trying to maintain the status quo for your slight benefit. You\'re like a walking contradiction.
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Campaign for Liberty
Learn it, Live it, Love it
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By affordable do you mean universal? Who is going to pay for it? Are we going to cover illegal aliens too? I certainly don\'t want to give coverage to any non US Citizen. I also don\'t think it is right that I should wait in line with jobless bums to see a doctor. This would be the beginning of a welfare state.
Every tax payer should pay for it.
I personally could go either way on the illegal aliens thing because I have mixed opinions on that.
And when it comes to you with a flu or a jobless person with a flu, I\'d like to see you both waiting on the same line. There are no qualifiers on whether or not a person deserves health care.
The death penalty doesn\'t discriminate based on employment, neither should the life benefit. Employment is unrelated. Wealth is unrelated. If you\'re alive, you should receive affordable health care.
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Every tax payer should pay for it.
I personally could go either way on the illegal aliens thing because I have mixed opinions on that.
And when it comes to you with a flu or a jobless person with a flu, I\'d like to see you both waiting on the same line. There are no qualifiers on whether or not a person deserves health care.
The death penalty doesn\'t discriminate based on employment, neither should the life benefit. Employment is unrelated. Wealth is unrelated. If you\'re alive, you should receive affordable health care.
So why even get a job if I can have the same benefits? If you don\'t have health insurance you go to a Free Clinic. It\'s not there\'s no place for you to go.
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If you\'re alive, you should receive affordable health care.
who decides what "affordable" is. thats a pretty relative term
to me affordable=free but i dont want free healthcare if it just means more taxes
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And when it comes to you with a flu or a jobless person with a flu, I\'d like to see you both waiting on the same line. There are no qualifiers on whether or not a person deserves health care.
That\'s what we need, people milking the system even more. PASS
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I think the current system is better because it is an incentive for people to get a job, even if it is not a desirable one. If we had universal healthcare than the incentive for people to seek work lessens. This is precisely the reason I am against welfare. Anything that discourages people from getting a job should be eliminated.
You want to eliminate programs based on some crazy logic. Programs like welfare are there to help people who fall on hard times due to illness / losing a job / etc. If you do away with those programs, those people become homeless and it gets even more complicated for them to get a job. Yes, some people abuse them. That\'s anything. But for everyone who abuses them, there is some one else who has a legitimate reason to use the program and it helps them keep food on the table for their children. I know this for a fact. My parents had to use welfare at one point when I was a child - I\'m not ashamed. Both of them had cancer and were in and out of the hospital. Eventually they couldn\'t work due to medical issues and had to turn to a welfare program for a short time and guess what? It kept food on our table. A brief time later, they were better and able to get their feet back on the ground.
Think before you post or suggest to eliminate Government programs.
And when it comes to you with a flu or a jobless person with a flu, I\'d like to see you both waiting on the same line. There are no qualifiers on whether or not a person deserves health care.
The death penalty doesn\'t discriminate based on employment, neither should the life benefit. Employment is unrelated. Wealth is unrelated. If you\'re alive, you should receive affordable health care.
Preach it.
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From the time I aged out of my parent\'s health coverage in 1990 until I accepted my current position in 1997, I had no health insurance. For seven years I was not under any plan, because I could not afford even the cheapest coverage as an individual at the beginning of my career.
Was I a poor lazy welfare recipient of the sort you conservatives despise? NO, I was working my ass off as a long-term temp. That\'s how corporate america operates. They don\'t pay you anything to support your health and well being unless they are forced to. By that I mean - unless the employee has attained a level of experience and indispensability that makes it very costly for the employer to replace them. Then they start to consider "retention policies."
Until that time, you\'re on your own and you\'re FUCKED if something bad happens to you. Fortunately nothing happened to me during that time, but didn\'t stop me from worrying about it.
You conservatives love to reduce this to a simple formula of "ME vs. the LAZY POOR PEOPLE," but it\'s not at all that simple. The lack of affordable health care hurts ordinary middle class people, AND the working poor. It also cripples our global competitiveness and reduces the productivity of our national work force. This attitude of "don\'t take anything out of my pocket to support someone else" is like spending a dollar to save a dime. It\'s ass backwards.
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From the time I aged out of my parent\'s health coverage in 1990 until I accepted my current position in 1997, I had no health insurance. For seven years I was not under any plan, because I could not afford even the cheapest coverage as an individual at the beginning of my career.
Was I a poor lazy welfare recipient of the sort you conservatives despise? NO, I was working my ass off as a long-term temp. That\'s how corporate america operates. They don\'t pay you anything to support your health and well being unless they are forced to. By that I mean - unless the employee has attained a level of experience and indispensability that makes it very costly for the employer to replace them. Then they start to consider "retention policies."
Until that time, you\'re on your own and you\'re FUCKED if something bad happens to you. Fortunately nothing happened to me during that time, but didn\'t stop me from worrying about it.
You conservatives love to reduce this to a simple formula of "ME vs. the LAZY POOR PEOPLE," but it\'s not at all that simple. The lack of affordable health care hurts ordinary middle class people, AND the working poor. It also cripples our global competitiveness and reduces the productivity of our national work force. This attitude of "don\'t take anything out of my pocket to support someone else" is like spending a dollar to save a dime. It\'s ass backwards.
It is capitalism, read my signature. This country is not about entitlements. Your rights are in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Where in there does it say people are "entitled to free or affordable health care"? I am an ordinary middle class person and I have health care. I pay the deductibles. I don\'t want to pay for someone else\'s health care.
It was your responsibility during that time to either have health care or not. It is not governments responsibility to provide it. You want this country to carry the irresponsible and the poor.
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That is the kind of belief system that conservatives hold when they are economically well off and have full health coverage.
I would never wish this on you, but it could happen to anyone: Hypothetically speaking, if you should ever be fired or kicked off your health insurance, and then have to pay for cancer treatment for yourself or your spouse, I wonder if your opinion would change.
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LIC & Cored,
I can sympathize with the fact that you had fallen on hard times. However the solution is to make everyone else suffer slightly so that those who are suffering the worst can become slightly better off. The further left we go, the smaller that gap becomes and eventually everyone is suffering the same.
This country was not founded on collectivism, it was founded on individual liberty. People create their own wealth. If you become ill there is disability. If you don\'t have health insurance there are free clinics.
Not everyone can have the best things in this world. You have to work hard and earn your luxuries in life. I\'ve worked my whole life to get where I am, and I\'ve made a lot of sacrifices. I\'m tired of the government telling me that\'s not enough.
I am a member of the Campaign for Liberty, and I want to share with you its mission statement:
To promote and defend the great American principles of individual liberty, constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and a noninterventionist foreign policy, by means of educational and political activity.
This isn\'t about what\'s fair, it\'s about what\'s American. The idea that anybody can achieve success if they work hard in life. You just have to have desire and will power. That my friends is what this country was founded on.
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This country was not founded on collectivism, it was founded on individual liberty. People create their own wealth. If you become ill there is disability. If you don\'t have health insurance there are free clinics.
Spoken like someone who has never been to a "free clinic." I have never been to one either, but apparently I know a little more about them than you do.
Stop using this "free clinic" line as a fig leaf. Not every medical problem can be solved with antibiotics or stitches. I\'d like you to be the one to tell someone they can fuck off when they need heart surgery to save their life.
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I can sympathize with the fact that you had fallen on hard times.
BTW, I also want to point out that I did not fall on hard times. Mine is a perfectly ordinary story that is experienced by millions of hard working individuals in this country.
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LIC & Cored,
I can sympathize with the fact that you had fallen on hard times. However the solution is to make everyone else suffer slightly so that those who are suffering the worst can become slightly better off. The further left we go, the smaller that gap becomes and eventually everyone is suffering the same.
This country was not founded on collectivism, it was founded on individual liberty. People create their own wealth. If you become ill there is disability. If you don\'t have health insurance there are free clinics.
Not everyone can have the best things in this world. You have to work hard and earn your luxuries in life. I\'ve worked my whole life to get where I am, and I\'ve made a lot of sacrifices. I\'m tired of the government telling me that\'s not enough.
I am a member of the Campaign for Liberty, and I want to share with you its mission statement:
This isn\'t about what\'s fair, it\'s about what\'s American. The idea that anybody can achieve success if they work hard in life. You just have to have desire and will power. That my friends is what this country was founded on.
Yes, in a dream world any single person can achieve any goal. Too bad this isn\'t a dream world.
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Stop mentioning free clinics. You clearly possess no knowledge of their capabilities or their abundance.
This isn\'t about what\'s fair, it\'s about what\'s American. The idea that anybody can achieve success if they work hard in life. You just have to have desire and will power. That my friends is what this country was founded on.
What if you work hard and don\'t achieve the level of success required for a decent healthcare plan?
I get some heat for this but I feel its the only way to communicate with you and Giga sometimes.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themadhat.com%2Fimages%2Fvader-fail.jpg&hash=20cc823511fb7865ef75231cc0c84c00e3158baa)
How the fuck can you be pro life when the US has one of the worst infant mortality rates of first world nations? Life fail.
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does genetics play a role here? What if poor family are likely to remain poor while rich family are likely to remain rich? Like maybe poor family aren\'t as smart as rich family in general, so they are more likely to be poor.
Even the way poor and not so smart family might raise their kids improperly, and the kids would grow up to be poor, and work on low income jobs. Then when they have kids their own, the pattern continues and less likely to have a kid that would be successful and become rich than the middle class or the upper class kids. Part of it has to do with the way the kids were raised, and genetics might play a role on intelligent too.
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Cored, did you own a car, tv, cable during these 7 years?
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Regardless, I am not responsible for your well being, and you are not responsible for mine. We control our own destiny.
In our current system, some suffer, some don\'t. In a universal health care system, everyone suffers, albeit slightly less.
Health care spending stimulates the economy, currently accounting for 15% of the GDP.
The common man Cored... seriously?
An estimated 84.7% of citizens have some form of health insurance coverage, either through their employer, purchased individually, or through government sources.
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does genetics play a role here? What if poor family are likely to remain poor while rich family are likely to remain rich? Like maybe poor family aren\'t as smart as rich family in general, so they are more likely to be poor.
Even the way poor and not so smart family might raise their kids improperly, and the kids would grow up to be poor, and work on low income jobs. Then when they have kids their own, the pattern continues and less likely to have a kid that would be successful and become rich than the middle class or the upper class kids. Part of it has to do with the way the kids were raised, and genetics might play a role on intelligent too.
I disagree. My grandparents were poor, my parents were slightly better off, and I am heading in the direction to be slightly better off than my parents. It\'s a natural progression that is achieved through hard work and dedication.
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In our current system, some suffer, some don\'t. In a universal health care system, everyone suffers, albeit slightly less.
no
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I disagree. My grandparents were poor, my parents were slightly better off, and I am heading in the direction to be slightly better off than my parents. It\'s a natural progression that is achieved through hard work and dedication.
I see. But what are the percentage of poor family raising kids that will become successful and rich in life than compare to rich family? I think kids raised in poor families are less likely to become successful than middle class and rich families.
Even if the kids become successful, since they were raised from poor family. They have bigger and more challenging obstacles to overcome to get to where they are than middle income and rich kids. Not saying that rich kids don\'t have obstacles and challenges too. They do but they face less challenges than poor kids, and the challenges that rich kids face as they grow up are not as hard as the poor kids have to go through.
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I disagree. My grandparents were poor, my parents were slightly better off, and I am heading in the direction to be slightly better off than my parents. It\'s a natural progression that is achieved through hard work and dedication.
Not saying that you don\'t, but those 2 examples, are not the only determining qualifiers.
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The common man Cored... seriously?
Yes seriously. Like I said; millions of hard working individuals.
15.4% = 45.7 M in 2007
I guess because it\'s "only" 45 million, that\'s not such a big deal, eh?
How easy it would be for us to provide health coverage for every US citizen without any change in the quality of your coverage. All we have to do is skip one Republican war. That would pay for it several times over, and you wouldn\'t notice the difference.
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Lets get organized, losers.
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You know, I think Buffalo\'s hospitals treats more Canadians than Americans. My aunt is a nurse in Toronto and she\'s sick and tired of the long list of Canadians wanting to see a doctor coz they have a headache or got a small cut.
I have a feeling Americans would be far more whiny than Canadians. Remember, we\'re fatter than you Canucks.
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15.4% represents a minority of people. Would it be great if everyone had coverage, yes, but when 85% of your citizens have coverage in a free market, that\'s pretty damn good.
I am also against the war. I believe it is a wasteful war that wastes tax dollars. We have military presence in over 130 countries... that\'s obscene. It is not a republican war though. Barack Obama did vote for the war and he has the same foreign policy as President Bush, so don\'t kid yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez5robAWmu4
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85 percent is not good enough. 100 percent is the only true win.
This country is not just about the "American dream". It\'s not just about you being successful, it\'s about helping out your fellow brother. If I need to pay some extra, so people who are less fortune than me can have health care, then so be it. It\'s about helping out. I have no problem being in line at the clinic with some one who has fell on hard times and doesn\'t have a job or is trying to better them self, but can\'t afford health coverage at the moment.
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And how many of that 15% have amenities they don\'t need yet don\'t have health insurance?
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You have no right to the things that belong to me. The government should not be stealing from me to help the lower class. I donate several thousand dollars of my money to causes like aids research, cancer research, and the homeless. I don\'t need the government wasting my money.
More money comes from private donations than any form of government taxing, especially in areas of education and medical research. Freedom works.
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Here\'s another fact. Government Programs and Insurance Companies made healthcare unaffordable, not me.
You don\'t have to throw anybody out in the street, but long term you have move toward the marketplace. You cannot expect socialized medicine of the Hillary brand to work. And you can\'t expect the managed care system that we have today [to work, because it] promotes and rewards the corporations. It\'s the drug companies & the HMOs & even the AMA that lobbies us for this managed care, and that\'s why the prices are high. It\'s only in medicine that technology has raised prices rather than lowering prices.
-Ron Paul
As for other countries that have socialized healthcare:
Nations with socialized medicine reduced the cost of their healthcare systems by restricting patients\' access that needed treatments and healthcare rationing.
There are other solutions:
In the days before Medicare and Medicaid, the poor and elderly were admitted to hospitals at the same rate they are now, and received good care. Before those programs came into existence, every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm. Hardly anyone is aware of this today, since it doesn\'t fit into the typical, by the script story of government rescuing us from a predatory private sector.
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That\'s all great but have any opinions of your own you\'d like to share?
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That\'s all great but have any opinions of your own you\'d like to share?
I think they\'ve been made clear already.
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I think they\'ve been made clear already.
More copy and paste, please.
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The government has a right has the right to do so many stupid things but now you\'re going to complain about taking a few dollars out of your pocket to help the less fortunate with the right to live?
Nations with socialized medicine reduced the cost of their healthcare systems by restricting patients\' access that needed treatments and healthcare rationing.
wat no
Education is free. You are paying for children receiving information. THEY ARE TAKING FROM YOU ZOMGSTOPIT.
Still haven\'t answered my question about being pro life. Why would you want to chance it with the IMDR and and having no money to pay for its health?
I don\'t know which one of your boyfriends hooked you on to this nonsense but its very annoying to watch you dodge points and bring up useless campaign slogans from an old has been.
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15.4% represents a minority of people. Would it be great if everyone had coverage, yes, but when 85% of your citizens have coverage in a free market, that\'s pretty damn good.
I am also against the war. I believe it is a wasteful war that wastes tax dollars. We have military presence in over 130 countries... that\'s obscene. It is not a republican war though. Barack Obama did vote for the war and he has the same foreign policy as President Bush, so don\'t kid yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez5robAWmu4
I\'m glad you\'re against the war...going into iraq was a complete waste of time money and miltary resources. But you\'re wrong about Obama, he was against the war from the jump, and the same foreign policy as bush?...did you bump your head or something?....and it\'s not a republican war?...it was a republican president who started it....where are you getting your info from?
Watching that vid i thought he was going to show evidence of Obama showing support for the iraq war....he did not, so i don\'t know were you are getting that info from.
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So why even get a job if I can have the same benefits?
Why even get a job? How about to pay for the car you drive, the rent you owe, the food you eat, the shoes you wear, the music you listen to on your cherry-colored iPod, the cell phone........ really, did you need to ask that silly question?
Someone asked what\'s affordable. Well, free sure is. Maybe $10 a visit, I dunno.
But if we all pay into it and no longer pay into our health insurance programs, it\'s a wash. Health insurance is such a scam, we need to get away from it and this is a way not only to do that, but to make for a better quality of life for all American citizens.
It\'s ok to have a social program for health care. It won\'t destroy the rest of our society. It will peacefully exist alongside it, I promise.
But it\'d be a lot of work to make that kind of change, so it\'ll never happen. If there\'s one thing our politicians are, it\'s lazy.
Oh and someone the other day wondered how we\'d manage if we had to wait in lines at the doctors. If there was an increased demand for doctors, that\'d mean more job opportunities for Americans as well.
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JFK: Ask NOT what the country can do for you, ask WHAT CAN I DO FOR MY COUNTRY.
Socialism: Gimme
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Didn\'t vote for the war? Doesn\'t want more troops in afghanistan clips?
Obama announced a plan — if elected — to deploy an additional 7,000 troops to Afghanistan. "As president, I would pursue a new strategy, and begin by providing at least two additional combat brigades to support our effort in Afghanistan" "We need more troops, more helicopters, better intelligence-gathering and more nonmilitary assistance to accomplish the mission there" "I would not hold our military, our resources and our foreign policy hostage to a misguided desire to maintain permanent bases in Iraq," Obama said on July 14, 2008.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080714/world/obama_afghanistan_2
Jumpman - What would you like to know about my pro-life stance? For the record, I don\'t think that should be mandated by law, it\'s just my opinion.
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JFK: Ask NOT what the country can do for you, ask WHAT CAN I DO FOR MY COUNTRY.
Socialism: Gimme
You know what you could do for you country? Skip your health insurance payments and give a little cash to spreading health care to everyone.
I mean if some of you really think "I have money so I can go to the doctor and poor people can just go die," then that\'s your view point.
Me, I\'d like to think that America is so awesome, its citizens can get an xray and a cast if they break their leg. But I\'m a dreamer.
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That quote holds no significance to this argument.
It can work for both sides of it.
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That quote holds no significance to this argument.
It can work for both sides of it.
I know. what a great line. Wonder who his speech writer was.
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Why even get a job? How about to pay for the car you drive, the rent you owe, the food you eat, the shoes you wear, the music you listen to on your cherry-colored iPod, the cell phone........ really, did you need to ask that silly question?
I\'d be more concerned about healthcare than ipods, cellphones, and music.
Someone asked what\'s affordable. Well, free sure is. Maybe $10 a visit, I dunno.
It\'s not free. Well maybe for you. Not for tax payers. Not for those who already get a third of their paycheck reduced by taxes.
But if we all pay into it and no longer pay into our health insurance programs, it\'s a wash. Health insurance is such a scam, we need to get away from it and this is a way not only to do that, but to make for a better quality of life for all American citizens.
I agree. The Health Insurance companies are the problem, not the wealthy.
It\'s ok to have a social program for health care. It won\'t destroy the rest of our society. It will peacefully exist alongside it, I promise.
That\'s why so many americans support it huh? People see Universal Health Care as a giant step towards socialism.
But it\'d be a lot of work to make that kind of change, so it\'ll never happen. If there\'s one thing our politicians are, it\'s lazy.
They\'re not lazy, they\'re just worried about looking like communists.
Oh and someone the other day wondered how we\'d manage if we had to wait in lines at the doctors. If there was an increased demand for doctors, that\'d mean more job opportunities for Americans as well.
Because becoming a doctor is so easy. There\'s already not enough doctors. It\'s not exactly an easy profession to get into. How can we create more doctors? Lower standards? That doesn\'t seem like a viable alternative.
It\'s a good idea in principle, but its rooted in socialism. Free markets are good for society. Monopolies are not. Why do you insist on giving more power to the government?
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I mean if some of you really think "I have money so I can go to the doctor and poor people can just go die," then that\'s your view point.
My message to the poor. Don\'t beg for money, get a job. I understand that the job market isn\'t great, but how about becoming a waiter or working in retail until you get a better job. It\'s not glamorous, but I\'d respect your efforts.
I\'ve been working since I was 14. I have never had anything spoon fed to me. Just about everything I own I worked for. I spent two years working in child care when I was 14 so that I could buy myself a computer. I spent my college years bartending and waiting tables so I could pay for college so I could get a better job.
Stop crying about there being nothing they can do. I was poor, I\'ve been there, I\'ve experienced it. The fact of the matter is the poor in this country feel they have a sense of entitlement. I know its just a movie, but watch the pursuit of happiness. If you put in the time and effort, you can overcome poverty.
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President Kennedy was speaking about working together to bring about noble improvements in the condition of mankind.
Now the trumpet summons us again - not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are - but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation" - a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.
Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shank from this responsibility - I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it -- and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.
And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.
Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God\'s work must truly be our own.
It seems that Conservatives and Libertarians do not want to participate in an alliance against poverty and disease. Not willing to make a sacrifice to assist those in need. I give you credit Mr. Kennedy for opposing war, but in other respects you are just like the Neocons. "I got mine, you get yours."
The glow from our fire is not lighting the world.
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Didn\'t vote for the war? Doesn\'t want more troops in afghanistan clips?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080714/world/obama_afghanistan_2
Well i actually agree with us being in afghanastan,..since the A**hole that attacked us is actually somewhere in that region....i thought you were referring to the iraq war,...so i respectfully disagree with you on the issue of afghanastan...
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It seems that Conservatives and Libertarians do not want to participate in an alliance against poverty and disease.
I\'m not against fighting poverty and disease (I donate lots of money to cancer research). I am against being FORCED by the government to surrender more of my paycheck each year to pay for wasteful government programs.
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Well i actually agree with us being in afghanastan,..since the A**hole that attacked us is actually somewhere in that region....i thought you were referring to the iraq war,...so i respectfully disagree with you on the issue of afghanastan...
My bad clips, I thought you actually watched the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez5robAWmu4
In order to participate in the conversation you have to read/watch the material.
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I\'m not against fighting poverty and disease (I donate lots of money to cancer research). I am against being FORCED by the government to surrender more of my paycheck each year to pay for wasteful government programs.
W.I.C
Welfare.
Healthcare.
Not wasteful government programs. They are there for a reason. Well, two of them are, we need the third..
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My bad clips, I thought you actually watched the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez5robAWmu4
In order to participate in the conversation you have to read/watch the material.
*sigh*...i was willing to disagree with you on the subject of afghanastan and leave the issue alone....what is it exactly that you want me to see in this vid?(i watched it previously)...Paul states that Obama doesn\'t want to bring the troops home and he doesn\'t want to balance the budget when that could not be further from the truth. He\'ll end the war in iraq, but more troops are needed to engage the enemy in afghanastan, so he\'ll most likely use more troops in that area, and i agree with that.
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I know you all think I\'m "in it for myself", but I just have a different ideology. Since we\'re throwing quotes around, here\'s one more for you, I feel it sums up my stance better than anything I could say.
No, a libertarian world isn\'t a perfect one. There will still be inequality, poverty, crime, corruption, man\'s inhumanity to man. But, unlike the theocratic visionaries, the pie-in-the-sky socialist utopians, or the starry-eyed Mr. Fixits of the New Deal and Great Society, libertarians don\'t promise you a rose garden. Karl Popper once said that attempts to create heaven on earth invariably produce hell. Libertarianism holds out, not the goal of a perfect society, but of a better and freer one. It promises a world in which more of the decisions will be made in the right way by the right person: you. The result will be, not an end to crime and poverty and inequality, but less of most of those things most of the time--often much less.
Also clips, your last post was actually impressive. It responded to the topics in the video, I wish more of your posts were like that. I do have to ask, how is he going to balance the budget with all of these government programs he\'s proposing?
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Also clips, your last post was actually impressive. It responded to the topics in the video, I wish more of your posts were like that. I do have to ask, how is he going to balance the budget with all of these government programs he\'s proposing?
You what?..you need to be a polititian...how is it you can criticize me in a nice way?..*damn you*...:p...as far as Obama balancing the budget?....he\'s not going to be able to balance the budget in 4 or even 8 years. He did state that he does plan to pass his programs that are the most important for the american public(healthcare/energy programs/housing crisis/education) and i agree that he should, if we can spend billions in iraq every month, then it shouldn\'t be a problem for him to push programs that matter to americans the most.
He didn\'t say that he would exactly cut some of his programs, but he did state that some would probably have to be put on hold until the economy improves...but i think in reality, if he becomes prez & see\'s the actual numbers in terms of the economy, i\'m sure he\'s going to have to cut or make some sacrifices to his programs.
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Me, I\'d like to think that America is so awesome, its citizens can get an xray and a cast if they break their leg. But I\'m a dreamer.
If universal health care is so great, why do Canadians, Cubans, and Europeans flock to America when they need immediate specialized health care? ….. Cause when they need help, they’re told to “Get in line!”
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Same reason Americans flock to Canada when they need immediate care...
Because one (the vast minority of rich people) can afford it while the other cannot.
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So basically the conclusion is... it works both ways. Neither system is superior. Each has advantages and disadvantages, and there are workarounds for both.
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Same reason Americans flock to Canada when they need immediate care...
Because one (the vast minority of rich people) can afford it while the other cannot.
Not that many go to Canada.
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Not that many go to Canada.
I doubt there are any objective studies that capture these statistics.
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I doubt there are any objective studies that capture these statistics.
I\'m gonna go with the demographics of Buffalo\'s hospitals vs Toronto\'s.
And Wiki\'s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#Wait_times
One of the major complaints about the Canadian health care system is waiting times, whether for a specialist, major elective surgery, such as hip replacement, or specialized treatments, such as radiation for breast cancer. Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room.[20]
A March 2, 2004 article in the Canadian Medical Association Journal stated, "Saskatchewan is under fire for having the longest waiting time in the country for a diagnostic MRI — a whopping 22 months." [3]
A February 28, 2006 article in The New York Times quoted Dr. Brian Day as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."[21] In a 2007 episode of ABC News 20/20, host John Stossel cited numerous examples of Canadians who had difficulty accessing health care.[22]
According to the Fraser Institute, treatment time from initial referral by a GP through consultation with a specialist to final treatment, across all specialties and all procedures (emergency, non-urgent, and elective), averaged 17.7 weeks in 2005.[23][24] However, the Fraser Institute\'s report is greatly at odds with the Canadian government\'s own 2007 report.[25]
Since 2002, the Canadian government has invested $5.5 billion to address the wait times problem.[26] In April 2007, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that all ten provinces and three territories would establish patient wait times guarantees by 2010. Canadians will be guaranteed timely access to health care in at least one of the following priority areas, prioritized by each province: cancer care, hip and knee replacement, cardiac care, diagnostic imaging, cataract surgeries or primary care.[27]
[edit] Medical professional shortage
Canada\'s shortage of medical practitioners causes problems.[28] With 2.2 doctors per thousand population, Canada is well below the OECD average of 3.0, although its 10 nurses per thousand was slightly above the OECD average of 8.6.[29] Suggested solutions include increasing the number of training spaces for doctors in Canada, as well as streamlining the licensing process for foreign doctors already in the country.[30]
Doctors in Canada make an average of $202,000 a year (2006, before expenses).[31] Alberta has the highest average salary of around $230,000, while Quebec has the lowest average annual salary at $165,000, creating interprovincial competition for doctors and contributing to local shortages.[31]
In 1991, the Ontario Medical Association agreed to become a province-wide closed shop, making the OMA union a monopoly. Critics argue that this measure has restricted the supply of doctors to guarantee its members\' incomes.[32]
According to a 2007 article, the Canadian medical profession is suffering from a brain drain. The article states, "One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States... If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the U.S. are excluded, the number is one in 12." [4]
In September 2008, the Ontario Medical Association and the Ontarian government agreed to a new four-year contract that will see doctors receive a 12.25% pay raise. The new agreement is expected to cost Ontarians an extra $1 billion. Referring to the agreement, Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty said,"One of the things that we\'ve got to do, of course, is ensure that we\'re competitive ... to attract and keep doctors here in Ontario...".[33]
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pwned
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What do don\'t see are an abundance of horror stories resulting in long wait lists. Compared to the endless stories of people in the US being refused coverage for minor details, insurance companies refusing to preform tasks for "breach of contract" issues, or people getting thrown out of hospitals for having no coverage.
[ ]article mentions buffalo-canada connection too
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OR people who end up in the hospital with cancer or something major and then, are in debt for the rest of their life because their insurance didn\'t cover X this or X that. OR they simply didn\'t have insurance and now their whole lives are ruined.
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I\'m gonna go with the demographics of Buffalo\'s hospitals vs Toronto\'s.
And Wiki\'s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#Wait_times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#Wait_times)
You didn\'t quote anything regarding Buffalo vs Toronto demographics. By the way, Toronto is not a reasonable comparison. It\'s too far from the border to be an short drive for Americans with immediate needs. Try Windsor, if you can find any data. Like I said, I doubt there is any objective statistical data on this.
Also, look lower on that Wikipedia page.
Canadian health care in comparison The Canadian health care system is often compared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared) to the US system. The US system spends the most in the world per capita, and was ranked 37th in the world by the World Health Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) in 2000, while Canada\'s health system was ranked 30th. The WHO ranking has been criticized by some for its choice of ranking criteria and statistical methods, and the WHO is currently revising its methodology and withholding new rankings until the issues are addressed.[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#cite_note-48)[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#cite_note-49)
Canada spent approximately 9.8% of GDP on health care in 2005, almost one percentage point higher than the average of 9.0% in OECD countries.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#cite_note-OECD_2007-28) According to the Canadian Institute for Health Information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Institute_for_Health_Information), spending is expected to reach $160 billion, or 10.6% of GDP, in 2007.[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#cite_note-50) This translates to $4,867 per person.
Most health statistics in Canada are at or above the G8 average.[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#cite_note-51) Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations is complex. The OECD collects comparative statistics, and has published brief country profiles.
Per the OECD, Canada is better than the US in these areas:
- Life Expectancy
- Infant Mortality
- Nurses per 1000 people
- Per capita expenditure on health
- Healthcare costs as percent of GDP
- Percent of Government revenue spent on health
- Percent of health costs paid by government.
USA has the edge in:
- Physicians per 1000 people (2.4 vs. 2.2)
pwned
:wave:
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz4Z6L4u8E4)
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Maybe if more of those fat fucks were able to go to a doctor who said to them "Change what you\'re eating or you\'re GOING TO DIE," there would be fewer of them.
Just because you have a doctor doesn\'t mean you go to the doctor.
Universal health care is a joke and will never happen here. Taxes would be crazy and we\'d have less good doctors. You don\'t see a whole lot of huge medical advances coming out of Canada and other socialized medicine countries.
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OR people who end up in the hospital with cancer or something major and then, are in debt for the rest of their life because their insurance didn\'t cover X this or X that. OR they simply didn\'t have insurance and now their whole lives are ruined.
Medical bills are good faith no interest loans.
Logan was in the hospital 6 years ago. I have bank of america set up to send them 20 bucks a month. I don\'t think I will be done for another few years. Hasn\'t ruined my life at all.
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You didn\'t quote anything regarding Buffalo vs Toronto demographics. By the way, Toronto is not a reasonable comparison. It\'s too far from the border to be an short drive for Americans with immediate needs. Try Windsor, if you can find any data. Like I said, I doubt there is any objective statistical data on this.
Also, look lower on that Wikipedia page.
Per the OECD, Canada is better than the US in these areas:
- Life Expectancy
- Infant Mortality
- Nurses per 1000 people
- Per capita expenditure on health
- Healthcare costs as percent of GDP
- Percent of Government revenue spent on health
- Percent of health costs paid by government.
USA has the edge in:
- Physicians per 1000 people (2.4 vs. 2.2)
:wave:
As I said, it will not work well IN America because: California\'s population > Canada. Now factor in the rest of the Union\'s population, where 50% are overweight and guess what? That Canadian style health care system would be bankrupt in no time if implemented here. That\'s my point. Americans aren\'t as healthy as Canadians PLUS we have a larger population PLUS lazy Americans will take advantage of miracle pills and take up doctors\' and nurses\' time coz their tummy aches from eating too much.
Oh and about the nurses: Canada has an open door policy for immigrants with nursing degrees. I should know: I have relatives that took nursing just to move to Canada quicker.
Forget about it. Let the fat fucks die (anecdote: fat kids today will save the US Social Security problem coz they won\'t live long enough to benefit ~ heard this on the AM Radio a few years ago).
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Hmmm...i\'ve commented on this issue only once (cause i\'m really unsure about this)....but just generally thinking about it, i don\'t think that universal system as it\'s being talked here would work, i mean people without insurance are already going to the hospital and hospitals cannot turn them around, but what is sad is that folks that actually do have Ins. that might need surgery sometimes have to pay for it out of pocket, when the Ins. they have won\'t cover it, and from what i understand those folks that just come off the street with no ID or insurance, their bill is either paid for by the hospital or passed on to the taxpayer... IDK, in all honesty i think everybody should have healthcare, but i think it would be heavily abused.
The times i\'ve been to the local E.R. the wait times are dismal as it is, and people come to the E.R. for thee most outrageous reasons,..."i have a headache or my stomach is upset",...or they have a small cut....i don\'t want to sound like a cold non-caring a**hole, as i genuinely feel everybody should have decent healthcare, but i just think too many folks would take advantage of it.....but maybe the overall good of universal healthcare would outweigh the bad....I also think that taxes would increase a bit by going universal.
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Medical bills are good faith no interest loans.
Logan was in the hospital 6 years ago. I have bank of america set up to send them 20 bucks a month. I don\'t think I will be done for another few years. Hasn\'t ruined my life at all.
You also have a good paying job. Good insurance. The list goes on and on. We\'re talking about people without those luxuries and how they deal with 30K worth of doctor bills.
BY the way, quit lying, there is no way Logan is six years old.
;)
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What I\'m trying to say here is Americans don\'t want to be taxed and eat the cake too.
So WE DON\'T DESERVE UHC.
Coz we\'re lazy, stingie (how the F*#K do you spell stin jee?), and fat. Except me.
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It\'s stingy. You could have also used niggardly.
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It\'s stingy. You could have also used niggardly.
I like stingy better...;)
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It\'s stingy. You could have also used niggardly.
So I can be fired....like the gay white guy who worked for the local DC gov\'t? Then when they realized it was not a racist remark, they were like "but he should have realized we was black and he was a honky!"
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Haha, you would. When I looked up stingy to make sure I was right and wasn\'t gonna make an ass of myself niggardly was listed too. lol
P.S. What Gman??????
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I like stingy better...;)
You\'re a fatty.
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It\'s stingy. You could have also used niggardly.
LOL :D
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Haha, you would. When I looked up stingy to make sure I was right and wasn\'t gonna make an ass of myself niggardly was listed too. lol
P.S. What Gman??????
It made national news. Hold on.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS273US273&q=niggardly+%2b+Mayor+williams
I googled it. You\'re lucky I\'m not feeling niggardious today.
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I don\'t know, I feel like people who are paying for health insurance are already paying the universal health care tax. Only difference is that health care tax goes to pay not for all citizens, but for all citizens who share your provider. And also, to profit.
I suggest a no-profit tax that everyone pays so everyone benefits from and none of it is wasted on profit and the exclusions in policy coverage that fund that.
And, for currently uninsured people such as myself, this would be a hit to my paycheck and I\'d be glad to have coverage since I can\'t afford it with how expensive health care insurers are. And if this deduction affects my lifestyle, I might just get another job working as a waiter or in retail, right?
For people who already pay for health insurance, their cost would come down each week since their burden would now be shouldered amongst more people. Just like how your group rate is cheaper than if you had individual insurance.
Then we could go about educating ourselves on proper diet and nutrition with the goal of keeping our health care taxes down.
I mean really, Mr. Kennedy, what\'s the difference to you if you cut a check to an insurance company or to a government agency? You\'re still cutting the check, only with a universal plan it\'d be less each week and you\'d have better coverage.
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The difference is Kennedy believes the government has no right to take that money from you...while he\'d rather be paying corrupt and money hungry insurance companies instead.
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Amen.
Logic..
"I PAY FOR MY INSURANCE - SCREW THE REST."
As opposed to..
"I pay for insurance. Everyone does. Now everyone has insurance."
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i kind of like that I pay $0 on my health premiums every month...
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I love how you guys try to paint us as villains for making money and taking care of ourself. Frankly it\'s pathetic and so are you guys.
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Wow.
That was insightful. Thanks, Bozzy.
Maybe some of us just aren\'t greedy and would rather take the money we spend on Healthcare and put it towards a program where everyone has healthcare.
OH NOES!
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3025%2F2898140478_d900e5fef7.jpg&hash=0c3d5f3ee345655ae66e18a8aff4ac51732597cd)
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Yawn, and this is why I try to avoid conversation with the simpletons....
Prove to me I\'ll pay the same and have just as good of coverage and that\'ll be a start.
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Yawn, and this is why I try to avoid conversation with the simpletons....
Prove to me I\'ll pay the same and have just as good of coverage and that\'ll be a start.
Your logic is flawed. Every job has different options, so there is no proof that two years from now you\'ll be paying the same. Just like my insurance went up this year from last year.
Flawed logic, ftl.
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i kind of like that I pay $0 on my health premiums every month...
Care to explain?
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Bottom line is - IT WILL NOT WORK IN THE US. TOO MANY PEOPLE. TOO MANY UNHEALTHY PEOPLE.
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Your logic is flawed. Every job has different options, so there is no proof that two years from now you\'ll be paying the same. Just like my insurance went up this year from last year.
Flawed logic, ftl.
Well obviously I was speaking in general terms. The two systems are drastically different and how much we pay could be too. The quality of service is still a legit concern no matter how you cut it.
Being a douche, ftl.
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Care to explain?
My company pays 100% for my health insurance. I know not all companies are like that, but its one of the benefits of my job. If we adopt a universal health care plan, that benefit becomes null and void and I have been punished for no reason.
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My company pays 100% for my health insurance. I know not all companies are like that, but its one of the benefits of my job. If we adopt a universal health care plan, that benefit becomes null and void and I have been punished for no reason.
and you think your company would not compensate you more now that they are saving a ton of money not having to pay for health care for their employees? You\'d have a lot of discontented employees if that was the case.
I\'m not endorsing universal health care, but saying you\'d be punished is a bit of a stretch.
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Bottom line is - IT WILL NOT WORK IN THE US. TOO MANY PEOPLE. TOO MANY UNHEALTHY PEOPLE.
Bottom line-
GMAN OFFERS NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION YET AGAIN
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and you think your company would not compensate you more now that they are saving a ton of money not having to pay for health care for their employees? You\'d have a lot of discontented employees if that was the case.
I\'m not endorsing universal health care, but saying you\'d be punished is a bit of a stretch.
I\'d hope that\'d be the case, but I can\'t assume it.
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Just like you have shitty companies that don\'t provide their employees with good health coverage, you\'re going to have shitty companies that wouldn\'t compensate you in the other system.
That, you can pretty much assume.
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Bottom line-
GMAN OFFERS NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION YET AGAIN
I brought more than enough to the discussion in the previous pages. This thread isn\'t going to change the world. get ova yo self.
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So I\'m assuming that not only the taxpayer would be forced to put money in to this healthcare system, but small businesses would also be forced in to paying money in to the system as well. Most small businesses can\'t afford this to begin with and would have trouble keeping the same amount of jobs staffed as they normally would... But I don\'t know really what the plans make companies do so I\'m just guessing.