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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Mr. Kennedy on October 16, 2008, 05:15:57 AM
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Source (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://townhall.com/columnists/LarryElder/2008/10/16/the_case_against_barack_obama,_part_1)
Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama promises to "cut taxes for 95 percent of American workers." That\'s not possible.
Why? More than 30 percent pay nothing in federal income taxes. Obama comes up with this number by calling tax credits "tax cuts." One can debate whether these things are good or bad, but they are not tax cuts. McCain offers refundable tax credits for health care, as well as other credits, but he doesn\'t insult the intelligence of the American people by calling them "tax cuts." When Obama\'s credits go to people who pay no federal income taxes or who pay less than the value of the credit, they are not "tax cuts." They are transfers of money from one pocket to another, or redistributions of wealth, but they are not tax cuts.
I tried explaining this to clips and he didn\'t listen.
People have been fooled. Everyone voting for Obama, either wants socialism, or has been fooled. Those wanting socialism don\'t want to work hard to achieve success on their own, and instead sugarcoat it as, we want to help the poor. It\'s an ugly state of affairs that we live in.
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The masses are blinded. Nothing you can say or show them will change their minds. If Barry told them all to get his name tattooed on their forehead, they would only ask what color of ink.
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Might as well get Senator Government tattooed on their head, it\'s all the same.
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Bring us your tired, your hungry, your poor... and we\'ll help them die exhausted, starving and broke. God bless your vision of America.
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Absolutely amazing how you guys have such a problem with this. Yes some of those lazy folks will get a tax cut, but what he\'s proposing is geared toward the hard working middle class with 401k\'s like i stated in the other thread,..you guys keep insisting that this thing is only helping the lazy poor...it\'s not and that is the only thing you guys keep focusing on.
How could you not support a plan that helps struggling middle class families, but support a senseless war, that is spending 10 billion a month in which we are reaping no benefits from?....how can you continue to support that twisted philosophy when this plan is helping hard working middle class AMERICANS?....yeah i see the logic there...:rolleyes:..i guess it makes sense to stay there a hundred years like McCain stated as well right?....let\'s just continue to borrow money from other countries and "surge" the national debt even higher.
We have no problem helping out other countries and giving billions to them, but helping out our own?...nope....that is unamerican.
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God forbid, the wealthy give back to the poor.
Let the poor stay poor and let \'em die.
Fuck \'em, I say!
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It is not the governments right to take money from successful people and give it to others. Sorry, that is not American.
Two of the three posters above wants something for nothing and would be better off going to a country that shares their ideals rather than trying to change this country into a socialist one, because if Obama does try and take peoples money, things will get very very ugly.
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Bring us your tired, your hungry, your poor... and we\'ll help them die exhausted, starving and broke. God bless your vision of America.
The tired, hungry, and poor are too busy drinking out of a bottle of rum on the street. They don\'t feel like cleaning up and getting a job. Yes, I feel sooooo bad for those people.
Let\'s just reward laziness.
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Absolutely amazing how you guys have such a problem with this. Yes some of those lazy folks will get a tax cut, but what he\'s proposing is geared toward the hard working middle class with 401k\'s like i stated in the other thread,..you guys keep insisting that this thing is only helping the lazy poor...it\'s not and that is the only thing you guys keep focusing on.
How could you not support a plan that helps struggling middle class families, but support a senseless war, that is spending 10 billion a month in which we are reaping no benefits from?....how can you continue to support that twisted philosophy when this plan is helping hard working middle class AMERICANS?....yeah i see the logic there...:rolleyes:..i guess it makes sense to stay there a hundred years like McCain stated as well right?....let\'s just continue to borrow money from other countries and "surge" the national debt even higher.
We have no problem helping out other countries and giving billions to them, but helping out our own?...nope....that is unamerican.
I think the best way to support middle class families is to create jobs. To create jobs, you need to cut businesses some slack.
Your solution is to hand out money, my solution is to create jobs. Of course, that would require these people to get off their ass and work.
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i\'d be sold on giving the upper brackets breaks to create jobs if the money wasnt used on useless shit like yachts and massage vacations for the CEO\'s
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i\'d be sold on giving the upper brackets breaks to create jobs if the money wasnt used on useless shit like yachts and massage vacations for the CEO\'s
Ummm ok... I\'d be ok giving poor people money if it wasn\'t used for booze and cigarettes.
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Ummm ok... I\'d be ok giving poor people money if it wasn\'t used for booze and cigarettes.
or lottery tickets.
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It is not the governments right to take money from successful people and give it to others. Sorry, that is not American.
Two of the three posters above wants something for nothing and would be better off going to a country that shares their ideals rather than trying to change this country into a socialist one, because if Obama does try and take peoples money, things will get very very ugly.
We also aren\'t racist bigots.
Point?
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Did this socialism bit really catch on with you?
The Cold War is over...there\'s nothing to be afraid of anymore except terrorism.
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I think the best way to support middle class families is to create jobs. To create jobs, you need to cut businesses some slack.
Your solution is to hand out money, my solution is to create jobs. Of course, that would require these people to get off their ass and work.
Greed wins overall....the company i worked for before i got layed off in jersey, was making between...240 - 289 million in quartely profits, yet they still felt there was a need to lay off people and outsource people from our I.T. dept....our manager even went back to the higher ups with a budget(to save our jobs) stating that they could save the company 9 million over 3 years by cutting certain programs within our dept...they STILL opted for the outsourcing option.
I can understand if the company was struggling, but the company always made record profits, and our former CEO quit because the chairmen of the board wanted him to make more cuts, he initially argued that there was no need to cut staff, but the chairmen thought otherwise, so before they could fire our former ceo, he quit,..stating that he did not want no part of firing employees when there was no need to...so the chairmen of the board hired a former ceo of GM and he became their puppet and he cleaned house...he also received a nice 7 million dollar bonus for outsourcing us....it works both ways,..you give those big companies tax breaks and you\'ll find CEO\'s that\'ll abuse it....look at how those bigwigs at AIG went on a $400,000 luxury binge after receiving their bailout money....all at the expense of the taxpayer,...everybody abuses the system...even these big corporations you seem to care about.
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The tired, hungry, and poor are too busy drinking out of a bottle of rum on the street.
Actually, I think you\'re thinking of people who drink rum on the streets. I\'ve been talking about middle and lower class America.
And you suggest clips is talking about handing out money. Maybe he was, but I\'ve been talking about handing out health care.
And you suggest it\'s rewarding laziness, while I contend it should be an American right and privilege. As a world superpower, I think it\'s the least we could do for our citizens.
I guess, I\'m thinking of all American citizens and you\'re just thinking of yourself.
Well, at least that\'s an opinion, I suppose.
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We\'re rewarding people for being citizens now?
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We\'re rewarding people for being citizens now?
To some here - Citizen = entitlement
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I guess, I\'m thinking of all American citizens and you\'re just thinking of yourself.
More of the pathetic guilt tripping.
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We\'re rewarding people for being citizens now?
No. It\'s about making this country a better place. It is about giving a helping hand to our own citizens.
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No. It\'s about making this country a better place. It is about giving a helping hand to our own citizens.
Take some personal responsibility.
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No. It\'s about making this country a better place. It is about giving a helping hand to our own citizens.
So you think the govt. should take your money and decide how to lend a helping hand? They\'ve shown already that they can do a real good job of that :thumb:
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LIC pretty much thinks the government owns our lives and that we should hand over money to them so they can work their magical "social engineering".
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The past 8 years have showed how good sucking the government\'s dick worked out for Kennedy.
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The past 8 years have showed how good sucking the government\'s dick worked out for Kennedy.
What? I\'m anti-big government. I wouldn\'t really classify myself as a fan of Bush.
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Yea the govt. has grown in the past 8 yrs, it will get even bigger :( Unfortunately people think we can\'t make their own damn decisions in life and want to take all responsibility out of their lives and give it to the govt.
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What? I\'m anti-big government. I wouldn\'t really classify myself as a fan of Bush.
You\'re just a sheep, waiting for the newest underground craze to form before you jump ship.
And soon, because this Ron Paul nut is gonna die soon.
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A sheep? Reaching much?
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No.
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Here\'s a comparison...it is from Obama\'s site tho...;)....so i\'m sure giga will have an issue with it, but it looks like it\'s doing an honest comparison.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Comparison_FINAL.pdf
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/ Giga mode
Black person not honest.
Must hang him.
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^^^heh..tru enough, but to be fair i\'ll list McCains tax plan,...but his site doesn\'t have a side by side comparison like Obama\'s....hmmm...;)
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/0b8e4db8-5b0c-459f-97ea-d7b542a78235.htm
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Whatever Jumpman. If I were a "flavor of the month" kind of person I wouldn\'t be following Ron Paul months after he got out of the running.
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underground craze
You know, like all those times you changed your name to D list wrestlers?
Still a sheep.
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Jumpman, if you have nothing to offer in terms of the topic. Go troll OT.
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Afraid not.
I\'m drawn to trolls, you should know that by now.
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Afraid not.
I\'m drawn to trolls, you should know that by now.
I hate, so much, about the things you choose to be...
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I was never given a choice.
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Y\'know big companies and rich folks are going to end up paying higher taxes under Obama\'s plan, never mind the fact that he\'s rolling the tax code back to the clinton years,..so they are not even going to take that much of a hit, and these people are complaining that he\'s punishing success or he\'s stealing from the rich and giving to the poor.
But look at what happened on wall st. and the economy before Obama plan was even revealed...Obama\'s policy wasn\'t even implemented and the economy has imploded on itself without this theme of the well off folks bein\' taxed...greed of the weathly is what led to this financial meltdown...and look at who has to bail out these rich folks or else the economy crashes.....yep the middle class..the poor folks, the tax payers that some in here are incredibly against them getting a tax break under Obama\'s plan.
That\'s silly isn\'t it?...and even after the rich have robbed from the poor, these big companies(AIG) have the nerve to take a portion of the bailout money and go on a $400,000 luxury binge at our expense,...but then everybody is pissin\' a bitch when Obama wants to give a little back to the same folks that bailed out these weathly unresponsibile individuals....pathetic...Obama\'s plan makes complete sense. Tax those a##holes and keep them honest.
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Well said.
pissin\' a bitch
Well, mostly. ;]
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So who is for a flat tax and who is not? I will wait to chime in.
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I am.
If everyone is taxed 5% i think the system lends itself to being fair across the board.
i.e. If you have person A who makes 50K a year, and person B making 250K a year person A pays $2500 in income taxes and person B is paying $12,500 in income taxes. Person B is already paying a lot more than person A.
Person A\'s net income is $47,500 and person B\'s is $237,500. They both paid their share of the pot. Now what some of you want is to say well person A should be cut some slack and person B should make up for it and then some. So now person A is paying 1% and person B is paying 10%. So now person A pays only $500 in taxes, and person B pays $25,000 in taxes. But it\'s ok, he makes more money anyway.
I\'m just saying a flat tax rate lends itself to being naturally fair. Whereas tax brackets lend themselves towards... social engineering.
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Naturally? Yea, it naturally hurts those on the low end of the spectrum. whether 5 or 10%, that is alot for someone that makes 25k a yr. not so much for those top 1%!
Not to mention those in the current upper brackets can afford to pay good tax attorneys to find those loopholes to save more than they pay.
I think income brackets should be much wider though, that or a coke should be a nickel again!
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I don\'t understand how flat tax isn\'t fair.
One person makes 50K the other 100K. He makes twice as much as the first one, he pays twice as much taxes. Why do we need to burden them even more?
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It hurts the person makin\' 25k a year and lower.
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Haha these people will never understand and/or agree.
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Haha these people will never understand and/or agree.
Well..i see what he\'s saying, but i feel that such a flat tax will hurt those folks that barely make anything. He started from folks makin\' 50k and up, and it makes sense for those in that bracket, not so much for the lower end folks.
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Haha these people will never understand and/or agree.
Way to be decisive and take a side there.
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It hurts the person makin\' 25k a year and lower.
So they only pay 5% on 25K, that\'s half as much as the 50K person and a quarter of the 100K person... seems about right.
Not a flat rate, flat percentage. I\'m not saying everyone should pay $10,000 in taxes, that would be wrong. The more you make the more you pay as opposed to... the more you make, the more you pay, and then some.
And clips, someone making 25K a year probably isn\'t paying taxes if they\'re caring for a family.
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I don\'t understand how flat tax isn\'t fair.
One person makes 50K the other 100K. He makes twice as much as the first one, he pays twice as much taxes. Why do we need to burden them even more?
A flat tax is incredibly fair. The problem is, for low income brackets, they can only swing up to, let\'s use your example: 5%. (Made this figure up, it could be any percentage, I have no clue what it\'d be.)
So everyone is set to 5% and there you go. Fair as you can be.
The problem is: that doesn\'t cover costs. The government needs more money. The only solutions can be to up the rate for those who can afford it, or to slash the hell out of spending.
I\'d like to see a lot of slashing, and if we don\'t have a choice, the only other way to go is to tax the upper classes more.
It\'s common sense right? Starts out fair but ends realistically.
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A flat tax is incredibly fair. The problem is, for low income brackets, they can only swing up to, let\'s use your example: 5%. (Made this figure up, it could be any percentage, I have no clue what it\'d be.)
So everyone is set to 5% and there you go. Fair as you can be.
The problem is: that doesn\'t cover costs. The government needs more money. The only solutions can be to up the rate for those who can afford it, or to slash the hell out of spending.
I\'d like to see a lot of slashing, and if we don\'t have a choice, the only other way to go is to tax the upper classes more.
It\'s common sense right? Starts out fair but ends realistically.
The government doesn\'t NEED your money, they want it.
I agree with your second solution like there\'s no tomorrow. Cut the shit out of spending and these crappy beauracracies (sp?) that waste money.
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Great quote...
I\'m a little embarrassed about how long it took me to see the folly of most government intervention. It was probably 15 years before I really woke up to the fact that almost everything government attempts to do, it makes worse.
-John Stossel
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Back on the issue of Obama\'s 95% of people getting tax reductions...
This business, it\'s very simple. Obama says 95% of Americans are going to get a tax cut. Right? I can disapprove this in two sentences, maybe three. The Bush tax cuts expire when, Snerdley, 2010? You\'re three-for-three so far in the first segment. You\'re going to get a cost-of-living increase. So we have the Bush tax cuts, which are going to expire in 2010. Obama is going to let them expire. That is a tax increase. I don\'t care you make 25, 45, 50 -- by the way, and he\'s lowered the $250 threshold now to $200,000, did this over the weekend. Very slyly he snuck this in. Now he says if you\'re over $200 grand you\'re going to get a tax increase. The bottom line is everybody\'s going to get a tax increase because the Bush tax cuts are going to expire, they\'re not going to be re-implemented, so right there your taxes are going to go up. The Obama campaign is trying to say, "This is not a tax increase, it\'s not a tax increase. It\'s just a tax cut expiring." Well, the practical effect of it is you\'re going to have less disposable income. And then from there is where Obama\'s going to apply the rest of his tax increases.
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Why are 4 of the last 5 responses yours mr. kennedy?
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Does anyone here actually make 250k+ a year?
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Does anyone here actually make 250k+ a year?
This point actually just keeps going over his head.
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He actually lowered that threshold to 200,000
Many small businesses make 250K though FYI
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So you don\'t make 200000 a year?
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Nope, but we\'re on a slippery slope.
When Obama says 95% of Americans will get a tax increase he is lying. End of story.
This won\'t be the last time he drops that threshold.
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So he\'s not actually taking your money?
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He says he\'s not, but he is. That would be the definition of lying.
But that\'s not the point, even if I were on the receiving end of these tax cuts, I would still be against them on principle. Making the rich poorer doesn\'t make the poor richer. It\'s trickle up poverty. People who have earned their success should be able to keep it.
The government of Barack Obama will not incentivize success at all, it will be just the opposite: it will incentivize doing nothing. It will incentivize laziness. It will provide incentives for anger and class warfare and rage.
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What about the majority of the country who works necessary jobs like drivers, janitors, cashiers, workers, etc? Are they undeserving of EVERYTHING? Should their overlords get all the rewards?
Back to slavery?
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What about the majority of the country who works necessary jobs like drivers, janitors, cashiers, workers, etc? Are they undeserving of EVERYTHING? Should their overlords get all the rewards?
Back to slavery?
They\'re entitled to what they earn. Their managers didn\'t just fall into an upper level position, they worked hard to get there.
What happened to shooting for the stars or reaching your ultimate goal? I\'ve never heard Obama talk about any of that. He\'s instilled like a resentment towards the wealthy, and you are a prime example. He\'s literally incited class warfare throughout the course of his campaign, again your evidence of that with your slavery remarks. He\'s convincing all his supporters that the government owes them everything and should do everything for them. He\'s convincing them that health care is a right just from being born here.
Really, I honestly think that he\'s turned his supporters into socialists. They don\'t even know it. They\'re just like zombies.
I\'ve never heard him say anything about freedom or liberty or prosperity.
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What about the majority of the country who works necessary jobs like drivers, janitors, cashiers, workers, etc? Are they undeserving of EVERYTHING? Should their overlords get all the rewards?
Back to slavery?
Hey this way.
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Hey this way.
?
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What about the majority of the country who works necessary jobs like drivers, janitors, cashiers, workers, etc?
They work as hard as anyone no? Or does income=work effort to you?
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What about the majority of the country who works necessary jobs like drivers, janitors, cashiers, workers, etc? Are they undeserving of EVERYTHING? Should their overlords get all the rewards?
Back to slavery?
What an ignorant comment. Please think before you post.
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Thank you for breaking the record of most consecutive useless post streak.
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The man that post pictures and never has anything worth reading to say is criticizing me. That\'s rich.
Comparing people that have a choice in where they live and work to slavery. See the problem in that?
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They work as hard as anyone no? Or does income=work effort to you?
Yes, Doctors and Walmart cashiers are contributing equally to society. Just when I think you couldn\'t be any more ignorant, you go and say something like this.
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All you\'ve done lately is come in threads, say someone\'s wrong, leave, and refuse to follow up on anything. Me posting funny pictures is a visual experience.
My slavery comments go far beyond the basic exploitations which major corporations utilize on their employees without any potential repercussions. It goes back to the late 1780\'s, something Kennedy suddenly thinks matters when it comes to the sections he\'s most concerned with. I\'ll leave it at that so you won\'t waste any more time in this thread.
Yes, Doctors and Walmart cashiers are contributing equally to society. Just when I think you couldn\'t be any more ignorant, you go and say something like this.
No you will not dodge, you will answer or be made fun of some more you silly homosexual.
There aren\'t enough jobs in the country for everyone to afford health care and other benefits, the people who take them are deserving of nothing yes or no?
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Poor people should do my bidding.
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No you will not dodge, you will answer or be made fun of some more you silly homosexual.
What question did I dodge?
The best way to increase jobs is to make companies more profitable, so that they can offer better jobs to people.
There will always be people at the bottom no matter what system were under. Life isn\'t fair, get over it.
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So yes, you\'re in favor of unregulated exploitation of the working class. Again, for back to the 18th century if you want similar views on economics.
Liberty at its finest.
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All you\'ve done lately is come in threads, say someone\'s wrong, leave, and refuse to follow up on anything. Me posting funny pictures is a visual experience.
Your comparison doesn\'t warrant an explanation or follow up. Merely quoting it and pointing out its ignorance was enough.
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Without any understanding of it either.
That\'s fine.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg71.imageshack.us%2Fimg71%2F6807%2Fgtfo3bp.jpg&hash=fdb5b38cdaba3c86f3b9cae2071e80296f36275d)
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No, I understand it completely. Thanks again for bringing your Canadian spin to CE.
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My spin is a spin against tyranny and injustice. It\'s why I\'m Batman and you\'re just some average American who thinks he\'s the shit and thinks his opinion matters.
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So yes, you\'re in favor of unregulated exploitation of the working class. Again, for back to the 18th century if you want similar views on economics.
Liberty at its finest.
The working class is not being exploited! I am in the working class, if you work hard, you can achieve success.
Shoot for the stars! Pursue your dreams!
Get off your high horse, you\'re not entitled to anything, you have to earn it.
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Less regulations=less government=more exploitation ya pretty standard capitalism happens here too. Again, work hard=money apparently.
I\'m talking about the proletariat class, not your\'s (the bourgeoisie).
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The working class is not being exploited! I am in the working class, if you work hard, you can achieve success.
Shoot for the stars! Pursue your dreams!
Get off your high horse, you\'re not entitled to anything, you have to earn it.
The working class is being exploited to a certain degree,..take the outsourcing scenario,..Obama plans to give companies a tax break for hiring american workers, and a tax hike for companies that ship jobs overseas, but what do we tell our kids?..go to school get your degree and land a great job correct? Well how can that be feasibile if after you\'ve graduated and earned your rightful salary in your field of work, companies would rather hire somebody in india to do the job you went to school for and to pay them $7.00 an hour compared to paying you over $30.00 an hour?
I appreciate that big companies hire people and create jobs, but they are constantly looking for ways to not pay that american worker a fair salary. Alot of techincal college grads are going to be going up against stiff competition in going up against some of those outsourcing agencies. I\'ve experienced that and it\'s extremely frustrating....it\'s like the work establishments are against you for working hard and earning your degree.
Yes if you work hard you can achieve, but it\'s not as simple and clear cut as you proclaim it to be.
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He actually lowered that threshold to 200,000
Many small businesses make 250K though FYI
He didn\'t change it...it\'s $250,000 for families and $200,000 for individuals. I have a comparison of both Obama\'s and McCain\'s tax plan in this thread...maybe you should take a look at their plans.
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He didn\'t change it...it\'s $250,000 for families and $200,000 for individuals. I have a comparison of both Obama\'s and McCain\'s tax plan in this thread...maybe you should take a look at their plans.
Yes but he advertised it as $250K for all.
Clips, I\'m still waiting for proof regarding your claims that it will only affect companies that ship jobs overseas.
So I\'m not in the working class? I go to work. Why don\'t you come out and say it, you don\'t have respect for white collar workers.
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Yes but he advertised it as $250K for all.
Nope..he\'s always stated 95% of working families....and you mean to tell me if you\'re an individual makin\' $200,000 on your own you\'re not livin\' comfortably?....anything over $200,000 you get taxed as an individual, that is still a fair shake.
Clips, I\'m still waiting for proof regarding your claims that it will only affect companies that ship jobs overseas.
I\'ll have to research that...i only question the oil companies, because he seems like he wants to tax them big time, BUT if those guys aren\'t outsourcing jobs overseas, then he might have to give those guys a tax break as well....he has stated in general if you\'re a company shippin\' american jobs overseas you\'ll receive a tax break and if not you get the hike...he states it everytime he gives a speech, so it\'s not like it\'s something that he\'s stated only once.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Comparison_FINAL.pdf
^^^It states what he will do as far as companies are concerned here...what more do you want?..it\'s in black and white.
So I\'m not in the working class? I go to work. Why don\'t you come out and say it, you don\'t have respect for white collar workers.
Not sure where you\'re goin\' with this, since i\'m part of that white collar class as well....in certain scenarios, it\'s not always work hard and achieve wealth, not when these same institutions are fighting against you....and in a sense punishing your success and hard work, by looking for cheap labor and workers outside of the u.s.
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Nope..he\'s always stated 95% of working families....and you mean to tell me if you\'re an individual makin\' $200,000 on your own you\'re not livin\' comfortably?....anything over $200,000 you get taxed as an individual, that is still a fair shake.
that 95% is such a misrepresentation, as I\'ve stated, and you refuse to listen, and indicated in the title of this thread, one third of this country doesn\'t even pay taxes. So instead of keeping the status quo and not paying taxes, now they\'ll actually be receiving a tax credit. Yet, he still classifies that as I reduction in taxes. I call it socialism.
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http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Tax_Plan_Comparison_FINAL.pdf
Can i get a more reliable source than barackobama.com?
Here\'s the WSJ... http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/wsj-obamas-tax.html
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They\'re entitled to what they earn. Their managers didn\'t just fall into an upper level position, they worked hard to get there.
Please, they guy who\'s job I\'m trying my best to take is about as sharp as bouncy rubber ball.
This guy is just so ass backwards it makes it just makes no sense. He got the job b/c of 12 years in the field and he is Brazilian like half of the other people t here.
You would be surprised how many managers just fall into the job.
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Please, they guy who\'s job I\'m trying my best to take is about as sharp as bouncy rubber ball.
This guy is just so ass backwards it makes it just makes no sense. He got the job b/c of 12 years in the field and he is Brazilian like half of the other people t here.
You would be surprised how many managers just fall into the job.
And how many more will under an Obama presidency.
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You are still the best resource you have to acquiring what you want in life. Obama is not your best resource.
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And how many more will under an Obama presidency.
The same can be said about any other candidate.