PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: BizioEE on November 13, 2008, 11:49:45 AM
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A hurried launch, a desire to win the console war and design compromises lay behind the \'red ring of death\' debacle that cost Microsoft $1.15bn.
The infamous Xbox 360 "red ring of death" (indicating a failed unit) has caused Microsoft - and its customers - untold pain in the three years since the console\'s launch in 2005, and cost it $1.15bn (£738m) last year. Microsoft has never said publicly why the console was plagued with faults: it seems that poor production quality was at the heart of the failures - an all-round problem with no single cause except impatience on the company\'s part as it tried to become the leader in videogame consoles.
It was an ambitious attack. Microsoft\'s engineers started working on the Xbox 360 at least a year after Sony\'s engineers began work on the PlayStation 3, yet wound up shipping a year earlier. With the first Xbox, the company lost $3.7bn (£2.3bn) over four years, mostly because costs of the box - particularly its hard drive - were too high. Bill Gates didn\'t really care about the losses; that was simply the ante for getting into an exciting new business. But Steve Ballmer, who took over from Gates as chief executive during the first generation, really wanted the Xbox business to be profitable second time around.
Software-hearted
Even though early testing showed that production machines had flaws, Microsoft didn\'t delay the launch because it believed the quality problems would subside. "They got enamored with the idea of the Microsoft army rolling everything out at the same time," says one source. "Their thinking shows that they are a software company at heart," says one veteran manufacturing executive. "They put something out and figure they can fix it with the next patch or come up with a bug fix."
In the hurried design process, Microsoft decided late to add a hard disk drive, and then wireless controllers. The hard drive blocked airflow on one side of the machine; the wireless modules had to have enough space to avoid electrical interference. The console shell was poked full of holes to ensure airflow. In the end, the machine was a series of compromises.
"It turned out in the end that this was all going too far, too fast," says a source. "They were adding too many features after things were locked down. That incremental feature adding just made it fragile."
Some of the defects were latent, potentially not showing up for some time after the machine was used. Up to 50% of all defects can be latent. And production yields - the number of machines coming off the production lines that passed testing - were low. In August 2005, the machines\' aggregate defect rate - from Microsoft\'s contract manufacturers Flextronics and Wistron, in their factories in China - was allegedly just 68%.
In a memo dated August 30 2005, the team reported overheating graphics chips, cracking heat sinks, cosmetic issues with the hard disk and the front of the box, underperforming graphics memory chips from Infineon (now Qimonda), a problem with the DVD drive - and more. At that point, the contract manufacturers were behind schedule and had only built hundreds of units when they were supposed to be making thousands every week.
"There were so many problems, you didn\'t know what was wrong," says a source. "The [test engineers] didn\'t have enough time to get up and running." Shutting down production to debug everything properly might have delayed the launch in Europe or Japan.
Microsoft responded to this story (in full at Venturebeat.com) with a statement that it has already acknowledged an "unacceptable number of repairs" to Xbox 360 consoles and had responded to the hardware failures with a free replacement program. "This topic has already been covered extensively in the media," the statement said. "This new story repeats old information, and contains rumors and innuendo from anonymous sources, attempting to create a new sensational angle, and is highly irresponsible."
I have tried to verify the facts. Microsoft has never disclosed its actual return rates. But according to data obtained by VentureBeat, the total number of returns climbed above 1.2m consoles early last year. That is a huge figure, considering Microsoft had only shipped 11.6m consoles to stores by the time of the writeoff in mid-2007.
The warning signs were present even before Microsoft shipped any machines. In August 2005, as Microsoft was gearing up production, an engineer said: "Stop. You have to shut down the line." When production results are really off-kilter, stopping a line and tracing a problem back to its roots is the answer. But in this case, the decision was made to carry on.
Nobody listened to that engineer, apparently because console launches are always hurried affairs. Yields generally start low. As the manufacturers analyse data and tighten controls on each assembly step, they learn how to drive the yields up.
On November 22 2005, the Xbox 360 went on sale. Consumers could run graphically beautiful games on high-definition TVs. But machines started failing almost immediately. At the time, the company said it had received "isolated reports" of console failures and that returns were within the normal range.
According to the Consumer Electronics Association, the average return rate for products where the consumer gets their money back is about 2%. Microsoft\'s internal data assumed that in the long term 6% or 7% of the consoles would be defective before shipping into the market - a yield of 94% or 93%. The rate of return was expected to be low as well. But even after 2005, Microsoft struggled to ship enough units. The yield was typically only around 70% - far short of the target - until May 2007.
Problems denied
By the end of March 2006, Microsoft said it had shipped more than 3.3m consoles to retailers. But there was a growing "bone pile" of more than 500,000 defective consoles in a warehouse at Wistron and a repair centre in Texas - either duds off the factory line or returned boxes, according to sources. Production yield was climbing, but far too slowly. Meantime, Microsoft stood by its statement that returns were within "normal rates".
The denial of widespread problems infuriated customers such as Chris Szarek, who has had five bad consoles: he felt Microsoft was stonewalling. But as production ramped, Microsoft sent replacement units out more quickly and dealt with those who were unhappy about the shortage. In September 2006 Microsoft conceded that the quality of the consoles made during 2005 wasn\'t as high as it expected and said that it would extend the policy of free replacement for consoles made during 2005, even though the warranties had expired. But what was actually wrong with the machines? In July 2007 Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft\'s entertainment and devices division, said of the launch that "we were confident the product was ready. We did a lot of testing. The problem that shows up with the three red lights on the console is a complex interaction with some very complex parts."
There was no single reason for the failures - though many could be blamed on the graphics chip, which could overheat so much it warped the motherboard. This stressed bad solder joints, causing them to fail early in the machine\'s life - and the console was also one of the first products that had to meet new environmental standards in Europe prohibiting the use of lead in solder. Paul Wang, a Microsoft test engineer on the Xbox 360, said in a speech in 2007 that lead-free solder created a lot of problems.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/nov/13/xbox-truth
Thoughts ?
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Thoughts ?
Just enjoy your beloved ps3. It\'s a great system, honestly. Even if the 360 is just as great.
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My thoughts :
360 sucks.
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lol..even if your 360 craps out right now, you can get a replacement arcade one and use your harddrive. that\'s only 200 bucks.
i spent 400 replacing ps2\'s through its lifetime.
just again..bizio being bizio by trying to justify why he bought a ps3 over a 360
do yourself a favor. lose the fanboyism, buy both consoles, and enjoy all the games. or just enjoy your ps3 and stop worrying about the 360 if you hate it so much. problem solved
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Obviously you didn\'t read the article as many others here, you didn\'t get the point and obviously you don\'t know I have a 360 Elite.
Do a favour to yourself, read the articles and try to understand.
Don\'t get so offended...
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My thoughts :
360 sucks.
SnoopyJoe is the only one who understands the articles I post :D
just irony, I know XBox360 is a good console, games speaking.
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way too long for something i dont care about since i already own one
and the fact you own one and still are on this is beyond me. you payed them your money..they win
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Obviously you didn\'t read the article as many others here, you didn\'t get the point and obviously you don\'t know I have a 360 Elite.
Do a favour to yourself, read the articles and try to understand.
Don\'t get so offended...
I read the article, but that\'s irrelevant... it\'s the fact that you are obviously biased towards the ps3, but trying to come off as neutral. Just be honest with yourself. We have no problem with you favouring the ps3, you shouldn\'t either. What annoys me is the fact that you have to go out of your way to justify your position and then act as though you\'re being neutral.
Just say it: "I\'m a ps3 fanboy"
it\'s okay... really.
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I read the article, but that\'s irrelevant... it\'s the fact that you are obviously biased towards the ps3, but trying to come off as neutral. Just be honest with yourself. We have no problem with you favouring the ps3, you shouldn\'t either. What annoys me is the fact that you have to go out of your way to justify your position and then act as though you\'re being neutral.
Just say it: "I\'m a ps3 fanboy"
it\'s okay... really.
never tried to come neutral, I prefer PS3 a lot and since I got it I stopped buying games for XBox360.
Then you said you read the article but that\'s irrelevant...I think it\'s a very BAD thing for MS. Call me fanboy as you want.
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I had to send my 360 in three times for repair, each time took about 2 weeks.
The 4th time it broke I just gave up and bought a ps3.
I loved my 360, and I wish I had one for GOW2 and the like... I just got sick of every other month being without a system for 2 weeks because it broke.. Again.
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I had to send my 360 in three times for repair, each time took about 2 weeks.
The 4th time it broke I just gave up and bought a ps3.
I loved my 360, and I wish I had one for GOW2 and the like... I just got sick of every other month being without a system for 2 weeks because it broke.. Again.
that\'s definitly a reason i got a ps3. 1) blu ray 2) killzone/mgs 3) incase my 360 breaks down
been lucky with the 360 so far. had one break down but the one i got back from them was one made after Aug 2007 (supposedly when they fixed the problems) and not a refurb
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It has been common knowledge that the 360 has had reliability issues for quite some time. Why are we rehashing this now?
Bizio you should give your Elite to someone that\'ll actually play it and enjoy it. I\'m sure you can find someone that wants the more popular console.
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Ive been thinking about gettin\' my son a 360 for x-mas...is the 360 still having the ring of death issues?
*edit* nevermind..i guess it still is...(I skimmed over the article)
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It has been common knowledge that the 360 has had reliability issues for quite some time. Why are we rehashing this now?
Bizio you should give your Elite to someone that\'ll actually play it and enjoy it. I\'m sure you can find someone that wants the more popular console.
more popular only in America; in Japan it\'s going really bad and PS3 is selling more in Europe(more popular), with a higher world-wide selling rate since both launched;
Anyway, I\'m keeping 360, and after Resistance2 I may consider gears2.
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more popular only in America; in Japan it\'s going really bad and PS3 is selling more in Europe(more popular), with a higher world-wide selling rate since both launched;
Anyway, I\'m keeping 360, and after Resistance2 I may consider gears2.
There has still been more 360\'s sold than PS3\'s. Anyway, I only said the popularity comment to get under your fanboy skin. Of course you tried to spin the numbers in favor of the PS3...
Oh, and I don\'t need your explanation to me that after "insert PS3 game" I may have time for "insert 360 game".
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There has still been more 360\'s sold than PS3\'s. Anyway, I only said the popularity comment to get under your fanboy skin. Of course you tried to spin the numbers in favor of the PS3...
of course you understand nothing.
I spoke about [size=+1]worldwide selling rate[/size] since both launched. Can you understand the difference between this and world-wide user base ?
Obviously 360 has a bigger user base, being released 1 year before in NA, Jap and nearly 1 year and half before in Europe.
360 in its first 2 years=13.3M sold, PS3 in less than 2 years=16.71M sold.
...and if we consider the price...
Don\'t even try to debate with me, you armless child :D continue calling me a fanboy, and I will continue to kick you.
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Please tell me you\'re not this dense....
I understood it completely. I commented on popularity and you picked out a data set that spun things for PS3. I then laughed about that and stated total sales. You can obviously say the 360 has more sales just because it\'s been out longer but the fact of the matter is that it still does.
You need to check your condescending attitude at the door, you never earned it.
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Thoughts? Some dude got pissy his 360 died and decided to write a lengthy article that can\'t quote its sources half the time and comes up with "alleged" estimates the other half.
Old news. Slow day at work Bizio or is your dick size in direct proportion of people\'s opinion of the PS3.
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Thoughts? Some dude got pissy his 360 died and decided to write a lengthy article that can\'t quote its sources half the time and comes up with "alleged" estimates the other half.
Old news. Slow day at work Bizio or is your dick size in direct proportion of people\'s opinion of the PS3.
if it was the second you said, I would have a 2 meter dick you fool ;)
Do you get so offended by an article ? do you have sex with your 360 every night ? or is your dick size in direct proportion of people\'s opinion of all the 360 which broke ?
It\'s a fresh article, this is why I posted; now back on topic.
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Please tell me you\'re not this dense....
I understood it completely. I commented on popularity and you picked out a data set that spun things for PS3. I then laughed about that and stated total sales. You can obviously say the 360 has more sales just because it\'s been out longer but the fact of the matter is that it still does.
You need to check your condescending attitude at the door, you never earned it.
it was not clear you understood it completely, this is why I replied. And I was the one laughing, looking at your reaction. This forum need to wake up.
But I don\'t expect you understand...
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The truth is its the best console out there now.
Wii 2nd.
Ps3 last.
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Wii is 2nd?
Hardly any games for it. Perhaps 1 or 2 a year.
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And PS3 Metal Gear and a bunch of ports.
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[size=+1]Jap Market[/size]
PS3: 2.47M / almost 2 years = 102917 units per month.
XBox360: 0.79M / almost 3 years = 21944 units per month.
We have 4.7 X factor in favour of PS3.
[size=+1]Europe only Market[/size]
PS3: 6,368,096(Oct 22th 2008 = 19 months in Euro Market) in less than 2 years--->we have to wait March 23th for 2 complete years / PS3 released nearly 1 year and half later than 360: selling rate = 335163 units per month.
XBox360: 6,064,792(Oct 22th 2008 = almost 35 months in Euro Market) almost 3 years : selling rate = 173300 per month.
We have a 1.93 X factor in favour of PS3(close to TWO TIMES), with a far higher price;
360 is only leading America(PS3,360 only). (check charts by yourselves)
If you want the leading console(PS3, 360, Wii) in all territories, in Hardware selling numbers, this is Nintendo Wii.
For Games, is up to you, your taste.
[size=+2]Some of PS3 Games[/size]
PS3 has more exclusive stuff and more variety than 360, but I would never say 360 has only Halo and gears...
GTAIV - 4.56 million
COD4 - 3.6 million
Motorstorm - 3.5 million
MGS4 - 3.3 million
Resistance - 3.2 million
AC - 2.9 million
GT5 Prologue - 2 million
Uncharted - 1.9 million
Pro Evo 08 - 1.7 million
GH3 - 1.6 million
FIFA 08 - 1.6 million
Need for Speed:Prostreet 1.4 million
R&C Future - 1.4 million
DMC4 - 1.3 million
Heavenly Sword - 1.2 million
WWE SmackDown! vs. RAW 2008 - 1 million
Bioshock
Release Date: October 21st
Brothers in Arms: Hell\'s Highway
Release Date: September 23rd
Call of Duty: World at War
Release Date: November 11th
Dead Space
Release Date: October 14th
Fallout 3
Release Date: October 28th
Far Cry 2
Release Date: October 21st
FIFA 09
Grid
Guitar Hero World Tour
Release Date: October 26th
LEGO Batman: The Videogame
Release Date: September 23rd
[size=+1]LittleBigPlanet[/size]
Release Date: October 21st
Midnight Club: Los Angeles
Release Date: October 21st
Mirror\'s Edge
Release Date: November 11th
Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe
Release Date: November 10th
[size=+1]MotorStorm: Pacific Rift[/size]
Release Date: October 28th
[size=+1]Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm[/size]
Release Date: November 4th
NBA \'09: The Inside
Release Date: October 7th
NBA 2K9
Release Date: October 7th
Prince of Persia
Release Date: November 18th
PES 09
[size=+1]Resistance 2[/size]
Release Date: November 4th
Rock Band 2
Release Date: October 19th
Saints Row 2
Release Date: October 14th
Shaun White Snowboarding
Release Date: November 16th
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Release Date: September 30th
[size=+1]SOCOM: Confrontation[/size]
Release Date: October 14th
Tomb Raider Underworld
[size=+1]Valkyria Chronicles[/size]
Release Date: November 11th
[size=+1]WipEout HD[/size]
Release Date: September 25th
WWE SmackDown vs. RAW 2009
Release Date: November 9th
Not bad in less than 2 years, and what about 2009 Line-UP ?!!
[size=+1]KillZone2, GOD of WAR 3, full GT5, Heavy Rain, Infamous, Ico devs Project, the true sequel of R&C, maybe the sequel of Uncharted, FFXIII VERSUS(2010?), FFXIII exclusive in Japan, and many others, and all the multi-platform games[/size]
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Biz has the facts fo\' that ass ya\'ll...ya gotta come correc\' if you wanna f**k wit \'em...:D
On another note, how in the world is the wii 2nd?..there are barely any games for it...ms or sony would be buried by now if they had game production like the wii...i don\'t get it.
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Biz has the facts fo\' that ass ya\'ll...ya gotta come correc\' if you wanna f**k wit \'em...:D
On another note, how in the world is the wii 2nd?..there are barely any games for it...ms or sony would be buried by now if they had game production like the wii...i don\'t get it.
It\'s the same tactic they used with N64. Starve the gamers long enough, they\'ll buy anything for their dusty console. That\'s how Superman64 became so successful. It was several weeks of no games and then this stupid ass sucky game was released, and it like free donuts in Ethiopia! EVERY CASUAL GAMER BOUGHT IT AND THOUGHT "HOLY CRAP! THIS CRAPPY GAME SUCKS LIKE A LEECH ON MY NUTS! BUT I HAVE A GAME! WHOOOOT!"
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if it was the second you said, I would have a 2 meter dick you fool ;)
Do you get so offended by an article ? do you have sex with your 360 every night ? or is your dick size in direct proportion of people\'s opinion of all the 360 which broke ?
It\'s a fresh article, this is why I posted; now back on topic.
Its not offensive, its old news. I\'m just tired of seeing this forum flooded with useless random copy/paste jobs by you.
And um, rule of thumb, if you\'re going to insult someone, try not to use the same exact insult they used on you.....
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Do you get so offended by an article ? do you have sex with your 360 every night ? or is your dick size in direct proportion of people\'s opinion of all the 360 which broke ?
No one gives a crap about any of the articles you post, you should take that as a hint...
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Biz has the facts fo\' that ass ya\'ll...ya gotta come correc\' if you wanna f**k wit \'em...:D
Thanks mate ;)
...try to explain to pointless members, off-topic all the time...without arguments all the time, unable to back-up every time, how hilarious...
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No one gives a crap about any of the articles you post, you should take that as a hint...
I care. And I care about the Jews. Unlike you. ;)
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Out of curiousity, when did we move to Japan?
And if you point out the Japanese figures, without mentioning that there are twice the 360\'s that there are PS3\'s in American, a much more lucrative market, then aren\'t you really only showing a small piece of the picture (exactly what Bozco accused you of)?
That\'s what spin is. You\'re showing only the numbers in favor of your argument while ignoring those that hurt it.
And btw, the PS3 is not exactly gaining steam here either.
October sales figures for America:
Wii: 803,000
360: 371,000
PS3: 190,000
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I care. And I care about the Jews. Unlike you. ;)
yes, but you\'re a fag, so your opinion is void :gfight:
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Out of curiousity, when did we move to Japan?
And if you point out the Japanese figures, without mentioning that there are twice the 360\'s that there are PS3\'s in American, a much more lucrative market, then aren\'t you really only showing a small piece of the picture ?
Well, I pointed out both EU and jap figures(Europe and Jap are Sony land) and
I said 360 is leading America, so I showed the whole picture, not a small piece; but you are right on the fact I didn\'t show numbers about America, just said check charts by yourselves; finally a mature dabate.
By meJap Market
PS3: 2.47M / almost 2 years = 102917 units per month.
XBox360: 0.79M / almost 3 years = 21944 units per month.
We have 4.7 X factor in favour of PS3.
Europe only Market
PS3: 6,368,096(Oct 22th 2008 = 19 months in Euro Market) in less than 2 years--->we have to wait March 23th for 2 complete years / PS3 released nearly 1 year and half later than 360: selling rate = 335163 units per month.
XBox360: 6,064,792(Oct 22th 2008 = almost 35 months in Euro Market) almost 3 years : selling rate = 173300 per month.
We have a 1.93 X factor in favour of PS3(close to TWO TIMES), with a far higher price;
360 is only leading America(PS3,360 only). (check charts by yourselves)
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Well, I pointed out both EU and jap figures(Europe and Jap are Sony land) and
I said 360 is leading America, so I showed the whole picture, not a small piece; but you are right on the fact I didn\'t show numbers about America, just said check charts by yourselves; finally a mature dabate.
By me
I simply pointed out that you were spinning the numbers just like he said and you went on to call me an armless child and crowned yourself the winner for god knows what reason. And now you\'re going to say finally a mature debate?
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Well I looked a both ps3 and Xbox 360. In the end I just decided to go with the 360 it had the better selection of games. Playstation is just not the same this time around. I picked up Saint row 2.
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Biz has the facts fo\' that ass ya\'ll...ya gotta come correc\' if you wanna f**k wit \'em...
I don\'t remember Clips being this black before Obama was elected.....
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edited, double post
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Well I looked a both ps3 and Xbox 360. In the end I just decided to go with the 360 it had the better selection of games. Playstation is just not the same this time around. I picked up Saint row 2.
by me some posts ago :
[size=+2]Some of PS3 Games[/size]
PS3 has more exclusive stuff and more variety than 360, but at least I add the magic word "for me". Don\'t ever forget this word, cause your personale taste is opinable.
GTAIV - 4.56 million
COD4 - 3.6 million
Motorstorm - 3.5 million
MGS4 - 3.3 million
Resistance - 3.2 million
AC - 2.9 million
GT5 Prologue - 2 million
Uncharted - 1.9 million
Pro Evo 08 - 1.7 million
GH3 - 1.6 million
FIFA 08 - 1.6 million
Need for Speed:Prostreet 1.4 million
R&C Future - 1.4 million
DMC4 - 1.3 million
Heavenly Sword - 1.2 million
WWE SmackDown! vs. RAW 2008 - 1 million
Bioshock
Release Date: October 21st
Brothers in Arms: Hell\'s Highway
Release Date: September 23rd
Call of Duty: World at War
Release Date: November 11th
Dead Space
Release Date: October 14th
Fallout 3
Release Date: October 28th
Far Cry 2
Release Date: October 21st
FIFA 09
Grid
Guitar Hero World Tour
Release Date: October 26th
LEGO Batman: The Videogame
Release Date: September 23rd
[size=+1]LittleBigPlanet[/size]
Release Date: October 21st
Midnight Club: Los Angeles
Release Date: October 21st
Mirror\'s Edge
Release Date: November 11th
Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe
Release Date: November 10th
[size=+1]MotorStorm: Pacific Rift[/size]
Release Date: October 28th
[size=+1]Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm[/size]
Release Date: November 4th
NBA \'09: The Inside
Release Date: October 7th
NBA 2K9
Release Date: October 7th
Prince of Persia
Release Date: November 18th
PES 09
[size=+1]Resistance 2[/size]
Release Date: November 4th
Rock Band 2
Release Date: October 19th
Saints Row 2
Release Date: October 14th
Shaun White Snowboarding
Release Date: November 16th
Silent Hill: Homecoming
Release Date: September 30th
[size=+1]SOCOM: Confrontation[/size]
Release Date: October 14th
Tomb Raider Underworld
[size=+1]Valkyria Chronicles[/size]
Release Date: November 11th
[size=+1]WipEout HD[/size]
Release Date: September 25th
WWE SmackDown vs. RAW 2009
Release Date: November 9th
Not bad in less than 2 years, and what about 2009 Line-UP ?!!
[size=+1]KillZone2, GOD of WAR 3, full GT5, Heavy Rain, Infamous, Ico devs Project, the true sequel of R&C, maybe the sequel of Uncharted, FFXIII VERSUS(2010?), FFXIII exclusive in Japan, and many others, and all the multi-platform games[/size]
Playstation is just not the same this time around
if you mean it\'s not selling like PS2 and Wii ok. if you mean the Game experience it\'s just you; me think this is the best Playstation, with the best games and best services.
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Bizi called someone an "armless child".
That means he wins.