PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Eiksirf on May 20, 2009, 10:00:34 AM
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This movie showed up in the red Netflix envelope the other day. I\'m halfway through it... It\'s the first time the U.S.\'s Abu Ghraib torturing was depicted as something more than frat party hazing for me. Sick stuff.
It\'s crazy that Obama has to say things like "The U.S. will not torture." We were supposed to be above all this...
As you were..
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I\'m gonna check this out. That dude makes awesome documentaries.
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Torture ftl.
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This movie showed up in the red Netflix movie the other day. I\'m halfway through it... It\'s the first time the U.S.\'s Abu Ghraib torturing was depicted as something more than frat party hazing for me. Sick stuff.
It\'s crazy that Obama has to say things like "The U.S. will not torture." We were supposed to be above all this...
As you were..
Gee go figure, the guy writes a blog on the Huffington Post... :rolleyes: Couldn\'t be biased could it? Nah...
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This movie showed up in the red Netflix movie the other day. I\'m halfway through it... It\'s the first time the U.S.\'s Abu Ghraib torturing was depicted as something more than frat party hazing for me. Sick stuff.
It\'s crazy that Obama has to say things like "The U.S. will not torture." We were supposed to be above all this...
As you were..
Gee go figure, the guy writes a blog on the Huffington Post... :rolleyes: Couldn\'t be biased could it? Nah...
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God, heeeeeeere we go.
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Couldn\'t be biased could it?
If you mean biased against torture, probably...
Before this vid, I\'d only ever really heard the extreme, right-wing "Hey, it\'s like fraternity hazing, wooooo!!! Keg stand!!!" so this balances out the coverage for me, thanks.
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Well lets see what is deemed as torture...
From wikipedia this is what was done to him...
The various accounts of torture have been detailed as follows:
A black hood pulled over his head limiting his ability to breathe
Knee strikes to the abdomen
Over 100 peroneal (a nerve behind the kneecap) strikes
Shoved against a wall
Pulled by his beard
His bare feet stepped on
Kicks to the groin
Chained to the ceiling for extended hours, depriving him of sleep
Slammed his chest into a table front
With the exception of the peroneal strikes, I hardly classify that as torture. The guy died of coronary artery disease complicated by the beating his legs took.
A black hood on the head is torture? Shoved against a wall is torture? Having his beard tugged is torture? His poor little foot got stepped on so that is torture too? Slammed a his chest into a table? So he got nut checked a few times, give me a break.
You are probably the same type of person that wants to get rid of dodge ball in school.
"Extreme right-wing" :rolleyes:
Dude, you need to get a grip on reality. Funny how Obama has kept almost all of Bush\'s policies in place regarding detaining these people. Guess Bush was right after all.
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waterboarding is a minor one...cant believe your arguement is to downplay torture. you have to imagine they do more than stuff from a list on wikipedia
I\'m actually really torn on this issue. Torture is horrible, especially when you run the risk of torturing someone innocent (im sure they pick the ones theyre for sure are connected with al qaeda er whoever but there\'s still a chance). But at the same time, if it is the person you need information from that is part of the terrorist extremist cause 1) i dont regret anything about them going through the process and 2) you can get information that could save lives.
So yea..i dont know what side of the fence im on...
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Look at the day and age we live in where everyone is so hypersenstive to anything. For example if you look at a woman the wrong way you might be charged with sexual harassment.
The same rational applies to everything we do. I am not saying the guy didn\'t get tortured at all, but ask someone who really has been tortured if they think this is all that bad. Now, having your fingernails pulled out with rusty pliers and crap like that - yes, that is torture. Being kept awake and having a bag placed on your head - not even in the same league. Being uncomfortable and manhandled in my opinion doesn\'t count.
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im not going to join in the debate about torture but i do feel that some times you have to do bad things to keep an even badder thing from happening.
that being said some of these guy were true pows and a pow should be treated with some sort of respect.
also there maybe have been real information that was extracted from what went on there but the way its portrayed (and the pictures dont lie) is that a bunch of bored, scared, and not so smart soldiers decided to keep themselves entertained by fucking with some ragheads
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I love how giga talks shit about the OP\'s source, then proceeds to quote wiki about government practices...lol
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Let\'s be honest, the huff post is as biased as news sources come, so I take anything read there with a grain of salt. That would be like me posting an article from the drudge report.
That being said, on the topic of torture... it may be inhumane, but how many American lives have been saved because of it? I am of the belief that you have to put American lives above all else, even if it leaves you feeling morally gray. Let\'s not be ignorant and believe other countries are not torturing American soldiers.
I\'m a believer that the ends justify the means.
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waterboarding is a minor one...cant believe your arguement is to downplay torture. you have to imagine they do more than stuff from a list on wikipedia
I\'m actually really torn on this issue. Torture is horrible, especially when you run the risk of torturing someone innocent (im sure they pick the ones theyre for sure are connected with al qaeda er whoever but there\'s still a chance). But at the same time, if it is the person you need information from that is part of the terrorist extremist cause 1) i dont regret anything about them going through the process and 2) you can get information that could save lives.
So yea..i dont know what side of the fence im on...
This is how i feel....both Obama & Cheney had a sort of head to head yesterday and i can honestly say that i see what BOTH sides are saying....Obama wants to do things by the book and not torture anybody and feel that conventional methods will work, while cheney feels that torture should be used on terrorists, especially the high ranking ones at any moment.
Now if i had to truly be honest here....i\'d say Obama is kinda on the losing stick on this one. After 9/11 i\'m sure nobody would\'ve opposed the use of torture to those that caused that horriofic event on that day. I still don\'t think it\'s wrong to torture these idiots that wouldn\'t think twice about attacking or killing an american on the spot....terrorists do not play by the rules, so i say it\'s open season on them...f**k\'em.
As i\'ve stated before, i think Obama was ill-advised on releasing the classified reports on torture...why even show that at all? If he didn\'t agree with the process, he could\'ve just left that in the past and continued forward with his own policies without tryin\' to gain political points by releasing the report.
He also has a problem with guatatamo bay prison(spell)....he wants to close the prison, but nobody wants to take the prisoners, he then goes on to say in his speech that the prisoners can stay here. Idk....he states the prison is causing more terrorists to gather and re-group and is making us less safe by keeping it open, but i disagree..the terrorists were mad at america looong before the prison ever existed.
And Pelosi?...uggh....it\'s not a good look to be saying that the CIA lied to you regarding the briefing they gave you on the torture methods being used. Why would they have to lie about that? What could they possibly gain?..she looks like a f**kin\' idiot, just admit that you knew about it and keep it movin\'...oh she can\'t because she was one of the folks talkin\' about criminal charges for those that commited or knew of the torture methods being applied to those prisoners..pathetic.
I\'m an Obama supporter, but he kinda slipped on this one...granted the prison situation wasn\'t created by him, but bringing those terrorists possibly to the u.s. is a wrong move,..most likely they would end up serving life sentences and the american tax payer would end up footin\' the bill....and if that is indeed the case, he should just let those that are GULITY rot in that prison forever.
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A black hood pulled over his head limiting his ability to breathe
Knee strikes to the abdomen
Over 100 peroneal (a nerve behind the kneecap) strikes
Shoved against a wall
Pulled by his beard
His bare feet stepped on
Kicks to the groin
Chained to the ceiling for extended hours, depriving him of sleep
Slammed his chest into a table front
So while he was chained to the ceiling and beaten do death, but before his eventual murder, what did he confess to? What was his crime? How was his trial?
One of America\'s values is to treat POWs humanely and afford them rights to fair trial. Now that we\'re in a situation where we have to stick to those values, some people want to throw them out the window. America doesn\'t torture. We give people fair trials. We are not supposed to be out there terrorizing potentially innocent Arabs just because some Afghani headhunter handed him over for a cash reward. We\'re the assholes in this situation.
Also, I\'m sure that while you\'re not being allowed to sleep for 76 hours and a trained soldier is beating you into a wall, a table and kicking you in the balls, that soldier probably isn\'t using kid gloves. But hey, those are "enhanced techniques," so there ya go.
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Torture doesn\'t work. The person being tortured tells you what you want to hear, and that makes the information useless. This has been known for quite a long time and also documented. However, we love to get carried away thinking we\'re Jack Bauer and we\'re going to save the world with torture. It just doesn\'t work out that way.
Maybe there were some torture geniuses active in the 17th century who could discern the lies and fluff from the truth, but they had a lot more experience than we do. They also didn\'t care whether the vicitm died in the process.
By the way, being kept awake is not a gentle form of torture. Anyone who says so has never had it done to them. I just read The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn, and he made it clear that being kept awake can induce a lot of agony.
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Torture doesn\'t work. The person being tortured tells you what you want to hear, and that makes the information useless. This has been known for quite a long time and also documented. However, we love to get carried away thinking we\'re Jack Bauer and we\'re going to save the world with torture. It just doesn\'t work out that way.
Fair enough, but wouldn\'t you be more likely to tell the truth under threat of physical harm? I know I would. Maybe that\'s just me though. Please do not forget that we are not the only nation that does this.
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...And Pelosi?...uggh....it\'s not a good look to be saying that the CIA lied to you regarding the briefing they gave you on the torture methods being used. Why would they have to lie about that? What could they possibly gain?..she looks like a f**kin\' idiot, just admit that you knew about it and keep it movin\'...oh she can\'t because she was one of the folks talkin\' about criminal charges for those that commited or knew of the torture methods being applied to those prisoners..pathetic...
I think she has the right to do that. If that is what she feels, then I agree with her on what she did. Sometimes people might feel uneasy if they are misunderstood, that could be a burden to them, so making a public speech to clear up what might be bothering her could remove the burden so she could feel at ease and free of burden.
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Fair enough, but wouldn\'t you be more likely to tell the truth under threat of physical harm? I know I would. Maybe that\'s just me though. Please do not forget that we are not the only nation that does this.
What is the benefit of telling the truth over telling a lie? You tell the truth, they know it\'s working and will continue to torture you to get every last ounce of information out. You lie, they will continue to torture you until you tell them the truth.
And just because Johnny jumped off a bridge, does that mean I should too?
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What is the benefit of telling the truth over telling a lie? You tell the truth, they know it\'s working and will continue to torture you to get every last ounce of information out. You lie, they will continue to torture you until you tell them the truth.
And just because Johnny jumped off a bridge, does that mean I should too?
I guess you\'ve never heard of diplomatic immunity.
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Do it like a hostage negotiation, tell them you\'re screwed now but if you cooperate with me we\'ll take care of you. Then afterward you can dump them back on the street or keep them in prison.
Plus, now we\'ve got stories and pictures of us torturing these Arabs. I\'m sure terrorist recruiters have those images as posters now. We\'re helping create new enemies for ourselves with that kind of behavior, by making the innocent captures hate us and by giving new reason for everyone else to hate us, too.
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I agree with the first part of your post Eik. As far as us having pics and disturbing stories of torture? I don\'t think it really matters in the sense of us creating new enemies. Terrorists have been hating the u.s. long before these pics surfaced and long before we put them in that state of the art prison in cuba.
This is where i\'m kinda torn...i truly believe the u.s. needs to be above all of the torture rhetoric, but i remember very early on in the iraq war, at how these a$$holes videotaped the beheading of that poor american,... what made it worse was that i think he was there for humanitarian reasons(he was just there to help folks out)...then you have the pics of those american soldiers that were burned and hung from bridges. (this is why sometimes i feel when it comes to terrorists and not coventional armies, that the u.s. should torture the s**t outta them).
As much as i was against the war in iraq, i truly hated seeing how our troops were treated and those poor folks who were only there to offer aid to locals, be brutally murdered....This is why i gave Bush so much heat for putting our troops in a war with a country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11.
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America sickens me.
GO CANADA!
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Seems very simple to me.
Want to be considered liberators and great equalizers of the globe, stop doing anything that can be misconstrued as wrong.
If you wanna do things b/c of the things done to us? Stop preaching and pretending we have the best ways around the world.