PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: on December 21, 2000, 08:25:24 AM
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PS2 texture quality. This is the main problem of this "well-designed", "state-of-the-art" console... Sadly the quailty isn\'t 2000 (2001 ???) ready ! :( Seen those "nice" pixels (I could even count \'em) on the floor... how cute ! :) I\'m not satisfied. This is the point of it all. I\'m not going to get a PS2 coz of that. Have you ever seen a PS2 games with MANY HIRES textures... you can barely see HIRES at all (maybe the startscreen).
PS2 was over-hyped. When the first demos (shots, movies) came out we saw HIGH texture detail, antialiasing, and things we\'ve never seen since. I\'ve got that feeling that it was a big FAKE ! :( Sometimes SONY maybe get confused ??? I mean just look at those pics.. they look if they were CG .. Let\'s get it short, I\'m SURE THEY WERE! khmm...
Polygon-count is really fine! No probs on that. But that damn video memory... how the hell could thet blow it !? Grrr..
Have you seen MGS2 ? GT3 ? BOUNCER ? DARK CLOUD ? RIDGE RACER V ? WOuld you say by heard that these games are NICE ? And really revolutionary ??? Maybe you would after a PS but after a Dreamcast, naahh...
Ok, please list here the titles you think worth even a look! Or which you think is "stunning" in quality.
No flaming, just the facts!
By,
Fan@X
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lol, when I saw the new user on the main page, just basing it on the name I knew you would post something like this.
Since you were nice i will say this. Remember generation 1 PSX games? look at newer games, thats what I expect the ps2 to evolve to over time, the same leap in graphics!
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Nothing you stated in your thread is fact.SSX is a good game.Just wait for gt3,mgs2.zoe,ac4 plus many more.
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Why even bother...?? Just another fan-boy trying to bring trouble to our forum with worthless posts and no data to back up his statements..
And nice first post dood. Please if you have an opinion on something post it. But this means nothing, you did not say anything that we have all not heard before. Prepare for a pretty good flaming. Peace :burn: :burn:
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I was prepared for some answers, but I think you don\'t understand in general. The problem is not the generation of games. Yep, PS1 games changed much 100-1000%, amazing! But the video memory (texture memory) is STATIC! IT\'s 4MB at all and there\'s no texture compression! There\'s an older console out there with 8MB AND texture compression (guess you know what it is...) It can store up to 16MB texture! And as we speak of PS2 as a NEW console it would be the minimal (I mean 16MB here too). There will be no revolution in MEMORY, only in code! Pheeew.. don\'t get me writing on coding ! :))) It\'s a hell of a bitch on PS2! I\'m a fan of the PS but I work in the game industry, and I KNOW WHAT I SEE!!!
Sorry, happy X-mas! :)
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Originally posted by FAN@X
I was prepared for some answers, but I think you don\'t understand in general. The problem is not the generation of games. Yep, PS1 games changed much 100-1000%, amazing! But the video memory (texture memory) is STATIC! IT\'s 4MB at all and there\'s no texture compression! There\'s an older console out there with 8MB AND texture compression (guess you know what it is...) It can store up to 16MB texture! And as we speak of PS2 as a NEW console it would be the minimal (I mean 16MB here too). There will be no revolution in MEMORY, only in code! Pheeew.. don\'t get me writing on coding ! :))) It\'s a hell of a bitch on PS2! I\'m a fan of the PS but I work in the game industry, and I KNOW WHAT I SEE!!!
Sorry, happy X-mas! :)
Close this thread mods, we have a kid thats REALLY stupid that does not even know about the ps2 streaming capibilitys that give it more textures then it can handle. The ps2 has MORE BANDWIDTH then any other console in history, thats how its builit for, not ram, bandwidth
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Everyone knows that streaming is a dead-technology. If you stream from a DVD you lost your god-damn bandwith! I don\'t want to talk all day. I know many ppl. coding for PS2 and it\'s really hard. But I really know that this is not the way! If you use streaming you can trash almost all of the specification! (it\'s written for MEMORY)
BUT let\'s say you can stream from DVD, ok. THen why aren\'t anyone doing it ??? Don\'t tell me it\'s not yet available or it\'s a long learning curve thing, coz you just said PS2 WAS MADE FOR STREAMING! By the way I have no time for gamers... any serious ppl here? Ppl who knows what they\'re talking about are pretty welcome here!
Forget those kiddy comments too like STUPID and stuff... I\'m really talking about FACTS and I just want to save you from buying something because it\'s a SONY! that\'s it...
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ROFL!!
Its another "I know people"
ROFL!
know what... "I see dead people"!
I hate blind people that refuse to accept new technology and the time it takes to learn to use it
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FAN@X said:
By the way I have no time for gamers... any serious ppl here?
....I think that\'s about all we need to know, thank you.:p
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Wants to save me from buying sony...!! Nice ... to late dood, I have already seen the dark side and I have turned. But maybe the valiant X-Box on its white (or pale) horse will come in and save the day..
What does it really matter...?? Do the games look good..?? YES Is it fun to Play..?? Yes ok then, end of discussion. Its all about having fun, not debating how much bandwidth it can push, now much memory it has. Do you develop games, do you know what your doing when it comes to building a game and what to do with system resources...?? I would guess not, and neither do I. Appearantly someone out there does, becasue they are making some pretty fine looking games.
Another question, why come in here and do this. You could have easily added on to one of the threads in Console debate, or even started a new one in there.. :burn:
peace :burn:
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:D :D :D :D crazy people!!
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
FAN@X said:
By the way I have no time for gamers... any serious ppl here?
....I think that\'s about all we need to know, thank you.:p [/B]
OOOHHH so its not about the games, its about the numbers. Damn Im dumb, I should have realized this. Why did none of you guys ever tell me this. Thanks a lot
And there are serious people here dood, you just not comming acorss very good..
peace
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Remember generation 1 PSX games? look at newer games, thats what I expect the ps2 to evolve to over time, the same leap in graphics!
I don\'t know about you but I didn\'t see any large leap with the PSX graphics over the years.FFVII came out around a year after the launch,right(around there}?That game was without a doubt the best looking game for the PSX yet.It really maxed out the power of the PSX,really.There was no huge leap between FFVII and FFIX,was there?There was no phenominal leap between FFXII and any other PSX game(RE,GT,whatever). Don\'t worry,that just shows how easy developing on the PSX was. They managed to put out one of the best graphical games within the first year!
If we were to see the same leap with graphics with the PS2, then I would shoot myself.But I know the first generation PS2 games are only showing 50% or less of the PS2\'s true power. There will be a huge leap in graphics over the years, but I\'m just saying with PSX,there wasn\'t really a huge one like there will be with PS2.
And FAN@X,bandwidth is the asnwer to the texture problems. But NGC will still own PS2 in the texture department! * evil laugh*
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I haven\'t read into detail about any other games other than DOA2.
Team Ninja, the creators, said that during the fight intros they stream the fight data by using the DVD process so that there is no "LOADING..." screen. They said that the DVD-RAM made this "streaming" possible.
I really don\'t think any company is going to mass-produce a 256MB RAM system and sell for $300. Not too feasible.
The Sony hardware architecture has a different structure. There is a post earlier in this forum with an article on it from the "Ars Technica" website that is really good. Check it out.
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Look at Ridge Racer, then at RR type 4. Look at wipE\'out", then wip3out. There IS a difference :)
FFVII used pre-rendered backgrounds, making it a prettier cake than the shallow 3D offerings. Same with FF8 & RE. GT is no more a 1st gen game.
The leap between generations seems to be more apparent with PS2 games. Some delicious stuff heading our way :D
Fan@x you\'re really funny you know that? :p
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Go back from where you came Fan@X ! all you said has already been said and i don\'t feel like explaining to you everything !
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By the way I have no time for gamers... any serious ppl here?
so gamers arnt serious? your not seroius. we are serious and if you continue posting stuff like this you will get banned.
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This topic is going nowhere fast...:sconf:
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nevermind...
[Edited by CygnusXI on 12-21-2000 at 03:44 PM]
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Now why would somebody do this? I mean, why come out of nowhere and just get downright nasty like that. "Gee, I don\'t like PS2. I know! I will go to a PS2 forum and insult the machine!". Why? Why would anybody voluntarily want to alienate people like this; particularly fellow gamers? The only thing your polite thread was missing was the final statement: "And that\'s why I\'m waiting for XBox."
Polygon-count is really fine! No probs on that. But that damn video memory... how the hell could thet blow it !? Grrr..
Well, I\'ll try to be polite. Let me ask you a better question: Why did Sony spend millions of dollars hiring Software Engineers and System Architects to design a more robust system when they could\'ve asked somebody like you what would work best? I\'ll tell you why: because they are more experienced and more educated in their line of work than you are. Streaming textures and environments off of the CD/DVD allows a much higher ceiling than a pathetic 4mb, 8mb, 64mb, or even 200mb of Video RAM. Streaming is out of date? Streaming was done on the PSX for games like Driver. Streaming was done on the Dreamcast for MDK2 and Crazy Taxi - to allow massive worlds. It\'s downfall: a bitch to pull off. Sony\'s PSX accomplished one import thing - it made gamers aware of Sony in a BIG way. With the PS2, they are able to take chances and make some innovations. Streaming data is one such innovation; the system was designed specifically around streaming the data. Dreamcast is Sega\'s PSX this generation; they took no chances and released a machine that was easy to develop for. Besides, unlike the streaming DC and streaming PSX, the PS2 has huge bandwidth. You can either drink out of a big class with a skinny straw (DC, PSX) or you can drink out of a little glass with a massive straw (PS2).
Again, this argument is old news. The textures on the PS2 look damn good to me. I suppose next week we\'ll be treated to a "jaggies" thread. Thank you for making such a nice first impression.
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Hello and Goodbye to FAN@X... :D
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FAN@X YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK...GOODBYE!
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oh my god i can\'t belive how nasty you guys can be, a guy comes on and states HIS OPINION and you guys all huddle and throw a ton of elitist suck my d**k kind of attitude, didn\'t i read a thread about being nicer to newbies about a week ago ????
ALSO ITS ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY NOT GRAPHICS!!!!
:D
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Also happy Xmas Fan@x, don\'t worry the board ain\'t always like this, just when one "hero" says something the rest can tend to follow.
If theres any mods reading this, im not slating the board simply stating my opinion, this thread is really dumb, its basically insults now, why don\'t you do the board a favour and close the thread :)
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lol, thats funny, I cant see the pixels on the textures of my ps2 games. Well, we expect MGS2 to be good because MGS was good, we expect ZOE to be good cause Hideo Kojima makes it, we expect GT3 to be good cause GT2 was good, etc.
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Originally posted by FAN@X
I was prepared for some answers, but I think you don\'t understand in general. The problem is not the generation of games. Yep, PS1 games changed much 100-1000%, amazing! But the video memory (texture memory) is STATIC! IT\'s 4MB at all and there\'s no texture compression! There\'s an older console out there with 8MB AND texture compression (guess you know what it is...) It can store up to 16MB texture! And as we speak of PS2 as a NEW console it would be the minimal (I mean 16MB here too). There will be no revolution in MEMORY, only in code! Pheeew.. don\'t get me writing on coding ! :))) It\'s a hell of a bitch on PS2! I\'m a fan of the PS but I work in the game industry, and I KNOW WHAT I SEE!!!
Sorry, happy X-mas! :)
This is a uneducated person. Now.. I\'m gonna have some fun.
1. PS2 streams in REAL time. The DVD is easily fast enough too do this. If u had ANY idea on its speed you would know this..
2. The MPEG decoder can be used as a decompressing tool.
The developers can easily make the textures JPEG format.
Textures are normally smaller then 100x100 so u won\'t lose any detail goin from BMP too Jpeg. Only LARGE pictures lose quality.
3. The ps2 can stream too the VRAM 4mb. Which has EXTREMELY high bandwidth. Then stream back and forth between the MAIN men and VRAM. Using only WHAT IS NEEDED. Not wasting mem on **** that doesn\'t get used.
4. Did i say it has a HUGE bandwidth.. :D
The system is a streaming powerhouse. Streaming is the future... It ALSO takes down loading time. Less mem more streaming means LESS MONEY. Sony made the ps2 in a very cost effective way.
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The PS2 has HUGE BANDWIDTH. ALOT MORE THAN XBOX. it\'s always Sony that comes up with innovation. The Ps2 doesn\'t hold textures in the memory like other consoles, it STREAMS THEM with the HIGH BANDWIDTH. Sony only included 4MB VRAM. I however do blame Sony for not instructing there developers how to use this method, or including the appropriate libraries. Developers have been storing the textures in the VRAM. that =JAGGIES. It will be fixed in the future. Remember those Tech demos sony showed that featured streaming textures? and in house developed Sony games will feature this too...
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Can someone explain to me how exactly the bandwidth works.
Is it like RAM in that information(up to 48 gigs) can be stored in the bandwidth and then moved out?
If that is so then that is way better than RAM.
P.S. How did summoner fail you PowerToold. I think that game is great.
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Actually it was Toshiba who invented the emotion engine. But Sony is an early adopter, so point taken, Animal Mother.
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Originally posted by Animal Mother
The PS2 has HUGE BANDWIDTH. ALOT MORE THAN XBOX.
Unfortunately that\'s not true. Both the XBox and GC have more bandwidth than the PS2 (read on).
it\'s always Sony that comes up with innovation. The Ps2 doesn\'t hold textures in the memory like other consoles, it STREAMS THEM with the HIGH BANDWIDTH.
[/B]
That\'s the point, whilst the embedded VRAM in the GS has a bandwidth of 48Gb/s, textures can only be streamed to VRAM over a bandwidth of just 3.2Gb/s (and half of that is needed for vertices).
Sony only included 4MB VRAM. I however do blame Sony for not instructing there developers how to use this method, or including the appropriate libraries[/B]
That\'s where I agree :), but I also feel that the lack of texture compression on the PS2 is Sony\'s biggest error. :(
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1. PS2 streams in REAL time. The DVD is easily fast enough too do this. If u had ANY idea on its speed you would know this..
[/B]
Hmmm, streaming from the DVD is fine for movie files, but it\'s not really appropriate for most games. At best, it can be used for uploading blocks of textures in preparation for entering a new section of a game (I believe Soul Reaver on the PSX used this technique).
2. The MPEG decoder can be used as a decompressing tool.
The developers can easily make the textures JPEG format.
Textures are normally smaller then 100x100 so u won\'t lose any detail goin from BMP too Jpeg. Only LARGE pictures lose quality.[/B]
JPEG can only be used to squeeze more texture data into the PS2\'s memory. Before use, the PS2 has to decompress the texture before sending it to the GS. Whilst decompression is done by hardware, there will be a performance cost each time.
If the PS2 had S3TC like the XBox and GC, not only would it give the console 6x more texture memory, it would effective give the PS2 6x more bandwidth AND 6x more VRAM with absolutely NO loss in performance (i.e. for free!).
JPEG offers none of these benefits.
3. The ps2 can stream too the VRAM 4mb. Which has EXTREMELY high bandwidth. Then stream back and forth between the MAIN men and VRAM. Using only WHAT IS NEEDED. Not wasting mem on **** that doesn\'t get used.
[/B]
That is correct, although it has less bandwidth than the XBox and GC to achieve this (less than 3.2Gb/s).
Once developers have mastered this technique, we should see great improvements in future PS2 games.
[Edited by Dr Yassam on 12-22-2000 at 05:08 AM]
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Dr Yassam remember the link I posted in a previous forum where MDK2 developers stated that the limited VRAM is not a problem?And that they didnt expect PS2 to have such a texture horsepower under it?
I also remember reading somewhere that the total result of the PS2\'s texture abilities reach the result of a 64MB vram.
But dont take this as a fact becasue I am not sure where I read that from.
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Originally posted by Dr Yassam
Hmmm, streaming from the DVD is fine for movie files, but it\'s not really appropriate for most games. At best, it can be used for uploading blocks of textures in preparation for entering a new section of a game (I believe Soul Reaver on the PSX used this technique).
There are some games streaming in real time right now. I think TTT does this.
JPEG can only be used to squeeze more texture data into the PS2\'s memory. Before use, the PS2 has to decompress the texture before sending it to the GS. Whilst decompression is done by hardware, there will be a performance cost each time.
Jpeg can be used as a texture format. Its alot smaller then BMP.. say a BMP texture file was 100kb.. A jpeg would be around 5-10kb. Like i said. Textures are pretty small. There wouldn\'t be a loss in quality in games.
If the PS2 has S3TC like the XBox and GC, not only would it give the console 6x more texture memory, it would effective give the PS2 6x more bandwidth AND 6x more VRAM with absolutely NO loss in performance (i.e. for free!).
Agreed. But remember. They can stream with it. Only using what textures are needed. GC, DC and Xbox don\'t stream like the ps2. They store there textures. So the systems need more mem.
That is correct, although it has less bandwidth than the XBox and GC to achieve this (less than 3.2Gb/s).
3.2Gb is plenty for streaming. :D
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Dr Yassam remember the link I posted in a previous forum where MDK2 developers stated that the limited VRAM is not a problem?And that they didnt expect PS2 to have such a texture horsepower under it?
I do :), they were streaming textures in the way descibed above. An interesting read.
Note: I\'m not disputing the PS2\'s abilities to stream textures, just clearing up a few facts. :)
I also remember reading somewhere that the total result of the PS2\'s texture abilities reach the result of a 64MB vram.
But dont take this as a fact becasue I am not sure where I read that from.[/B]
Guess what we\'ll find if we apply the same calculations to the XBox and GC. :D
The PS2 is a great console, but it\'s capabilities should be kept in perspective.
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Actually we shouldnt have even been talking about the PS2 abilities.
We can see many quality games on PS2 and still we havent seen the projects closed behing doors like Naugty Dog\'s.
But again like you said (Dr Yassam)"The PS2 is a great console, but it\'s capabilities should be kept in perspective".But again we might see games beyond our expectations.
There is always the unexpected
[Edited by Unicron! on 12-22-2000 at 04:19 PM]
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Merry X-mas to all of you out there!
I wasn\'t NET capable for a few days... I\'ve read all those "things" you wrote.. just some FACTS as always ! :)
First of all I don\'t want to ruin your amusement! We had a PS2 at our company (once again, I work for a game-developer company) back in March, 7th. We looked at the games and found them really nice, and impressive! BUT!! Those were Ridge Racer 5 and Tekken Tag. We haven\'t seen that quaility games since!!!! THat\'s sad.
So, don\'t tell me DVD streaming is good... EVERY streaming is really bad and it\'s an ALTERNATIVE, not the REAL thing. Somebody said textures are 100x100... well, maybe on early voodoo1 pc games, even on ps1 textures were bigger (256x256) and on the DC they\'re 256x256 or 512x512 imagine how many would fit in the "BIG" 4MB VRAM (which is max. 2 mem of texture mem as you\'d need 2 MB for frame buffer) guess ??? 4 (!!!!) of 512x512 would fit in the 2MB ! :(((
And ofcoz you won\'t see pixels "thanks" to the well-known and unfamous BI-LINEAR which makes it all blurry...
I didn\'t want to talk about developing for PS2 as EVERY programmer and even big companies like Oddworld, or Konami stated that it\'s VERY HARD to develop to ps. I guess they will choose another platform with much easier development kits. I think sony made a mistake and instead of admitting it they\'re going to push it down our throat!
Ofcourse there will be some VERY NICE and good games but the other xxxx will be TRASH! No time to finish a development... GT3 and Bouncer was both announced for 00\' march and were the hell are they ?? hmm ? It\'s DAAAAAMN hard to develop and they just realized that... Anyway japanese are really work-maniacs, and also nacionalists enough to hype the PS2.
I think this thread may be ended... I\'m a very big SONY fun I own almost every category of sony related stuffs, but PS2 is really a mistake.
That\'s it...
Bye folks!
FAN@X
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ps1 games did evolve over time...but one thing for sure is that in the past microsoft wass not in the market....with microsoft will be in the market at least 1/1.5 years after ps2 released...microsoft will be a major pain in the a-s-s for sony...
But my heart still go for Sony...
Sony RuleZ...... :D
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We had a PS2 at our company (once again, I work for a game-developer company) back in March, 7th
So you work for a game company, just curious what is the name of this "game company" where is it based what does it devolop and what\'s your position [ and no JANITORIAL Engineer doesn\'t qualify as a position]. If you had a ps2 to back in March then it was a Jap ps2 and you where using EARLY Japanese games to make your conlusions on what the system is [ or atleast that\'s what I\'m getting from what you say]. And lastly what games did you you look @.
I don\'t submit posts alot but I read here ALOT and have been in this forum very regulary since Jan \'00 and I know that people like you come and go like the virtual boy [ :P ] and to be honest I think the people [ atleast most of them] here talk about facts look at things from differeent perspectives ,accept it if there wrong and don\'t make biased opinions or statements toward one party. I hope the mods close this topic because it has turned out to be just a flame war.
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doctor-death-REBORN:Mr Fan@X doesnt answer.He is not a game developer.He isnt stating anything to prove that DVD streaming isnt good.Ans as I said before MDK2 developers(quaranteed developers not people saing they are developers like mr Fan@X)said that the PS2 has an enormous texture power.Unepexted power.
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Yes, tell us some proof that you REALLY belong to a game developer company. Sorry, I don\'t want to bash you rightaway, but I\'d be pleased to know.
Firstly, I wouldn\'t complain. For example, Timesplitters. Maybe the textures look n64ish when looked close but SO WHAT? TS isn\'t the best PS2 can do in graphical section, far from it. The game\'s about speed. Can you count how many polygons there can be in one screen at time and still running at fast speeds?
( take for example Mansion level in Arcade mode and then LastStand and move onto phase 2 and count the zombies before you die... :) )
Oh and look at the textures in SSX. BEAUTIFUL.
And how can you say "even with Bouncer" before you\'ve even played it? Those pics look really good and textures bright and hi-res. Plus then add the game in motion with fast speeds and you\'ve got your eye-candy.
Believe me, you\'re going to eat your words, Fan@x.
Now don\'t bash FAN@X so hard; tell him facts if he\'s wrong. I\'m not a technical person, so I can\'t state this subject by that point-of-view but I think it\'s better to have one post a gamers-point-of-view ( a reqular gamer who doesn\'t know the technical details ).
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DVD streaming for textures Im unsure about, yeah it would be great for say having a TV screen or large movie billboard ingame - but Im unsure about spooling textures off as needed, it would require exceptional thought in how they organise information on the DVD, great if you just want to fill the 4MB of VRAM for the next room in the game, but perhaps latency would make this method inpractical.
As someone had stated earlier, yes, it has been done in games, spooling information for textures off the CD and into the consoles memory before use in the game \'pre-caching\' if you will, would be usable if its execution was well thought out and information neatly arranged on the disc. But also; remember that textures could just as easily be stored in MPEG2 format in main memory of the PS2 before being decoded (EE IPU) and then shipped off to the GS making the 16Mb or so of RAM which the PS2 has ample, the question is - does it have enough bandwidth for this concept to work and is it easy enough for the developers to utilize, at the moment, apparently no. But thats not to say that it isnt possible - I think its likely to see after a short while developers start to learn how to use the machine in the way its designed as opposed to bastardising current concepts in the hope that they may work.
Of course I cant really say how close or far any of us are to the truth -its not like I know anything about the difficulties of programming a PS2 or such I just have a crash course idea about how it, in theory, should work. Whoever says that they are 100% sure a certain method is better is more than likely not speaking from their knowledge but rather just trying to get some flames going. The only proof anyone will have that this type of system will work will be looking at the efforts of the developers further down the road, give it time.
BTW: Merry Xmas. :)
-bd