PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Ryu on December 26, 2000, 05:00:55 PM
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X - B O X
- Microsoft has revised the specification of their X-Box console, the speed of the graphic processor has been lowered from 300 MHz to 250 MHz. The 3D performance of the X-Box is now estimated at 300 millions per second, however, the amount is reduced by more than half to 125 millions per second when texture mapping and shadings are used. Microsoft has not announced the performance figure when all the features are turned on.
Source: http://come.to/magicbox
Now, I\'m not even going to debate tech specs in anyway shape, or form on this board. However, What exactly does all this mean? 300 million to 125 million... sounds like a big hit before graphical enhancements and such. I just wanna know exactly what this means to people who are looking into getting an X-Box.
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Not a thing. I\'ll still get one. I could care less about graphics. Sure, they was amazing when we first entered the 32 bit era. But, now, I just want gameplay. And, I want games. So, I\'ll buy each console, that way I don\'t miss any \'big titles\' that may come out.
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Now, I\'m not even going to debate tech specs in anyway shape, or form on this board. However, What exactly does all this mean?
Doesn\'t mean anything, the 125 Million PPS is just as bullsh[/i]it as the 300 Million PPS. Expect 10-15 Million PPS Max in first Gen X-Box games.
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You just want gameplay that\'s nice..By the what is your job again?? You just buy every system and games like it don\'t matter. man are you rich or something. Maybe you should just enjoy your Psx2.
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Originally posted by Coyote_1
You just want gameplay that\'s nice..By the what is your job again?? You just buy every system and games like it don\'t matter. man are you rich or something. Maybe you should just enjoy your Psx2.
Why should I just enjoy my PS2, when I can get the other systems? I\'m not rich. But I can afford my hobby. I think you\'ll find there is quite a few people on this forum who will buy each console or at least another one.
heh.. You can just label us \'hardcore\'.:D
(Joking!)
And for the record; I\'d sell my blood for a new system, if that was required for the extra money! :)
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it doesn\'t matter to me either,but all this news of Xbox changes (no built-in dvd,now this lower polygon count..) is kind of disturbing,makes you wonder if the system is all that it is cracked up to be..? funny how it was being touted (by most Xbox fans) as the system to dethrone PS2 with all the same features,but now it looks to be more in competition with Game cube now,seems they (MS) are a bit confused which direction to go in?!
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GC does 8 layer effects in ONE pase while xbox only does 4...that right there tells you xbox is not god in a box and that GC will be every bit as powerfull as the xbox and even more....PS2 with enough time WILL get results that look just as good as GC and xbox games(i want to see xbox beat GT3 and MGS2 graphics)....
i really don\'t give a **** about the xbox because it has NOTHING that PS2 or GC already have.
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Got a link for that information Nplayer?
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Originally posted by Ryu
X - B O X
- Microsoft has revised the specification of their X-Box console, the speed of the graphic processor has been lowered from 300 MHz to 250 MHz. The 3D performance of the X-Box is now estimated at 300 millions per second, however, the amount is reduced by more than half to 125 millions per second when texture mapping and shadings are used. Microsoft has not announced the performance figure when all the features are turned on.
Source: http://come.to/magicbox
Now, I\'m not even going to debate tech specs in anyway shape, or form on this board. However, What exactly does all this mean? 300 million to 125 million... sounds like a big hit before graphical enhancements and such. I just wanna know exactly what this means to people who are looking into getting an X-Box. [/B]
Ryu, you are a little confused. First of all, the 250 MHZ NV2A GPU was confirmed, not dropped. It was estimated that the NV2A 300 MHz processor could do 300 million pps (w/no effects on). Now with the FINALIZED 250 MHz processor, it can do 250 million pps (w/no effects on). Of course as we all know 66mpps, 250mpps or 300mpps means nothing b/c it\'s not in game numbers. There is a very interesting article called Inside Xbox Graphics by Michael Abrash which gives just how powerful the NV2A is at the 250 MHz speed. It\'s an interesting read and the article gives you some perspective at just how powerful the NV2A GPU is going to be. You might not like MS, but you can\'t deny what Nvidia can do.
[Edited by AVG25 on 12-26-2000 at 11:16 PM]
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I WILL BUY IT BECAUSE IM A HARDCORE GAMER
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How does this post relate to your subject?
JOKE
X Box-X ageratted
X Box-X age rated
Hehehehehe, X rated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ya know...Microsoft is a big load of crap. They lie like there\'s no tomorrow and they constantly make empty promises. They\'re headed by a multi-billionare with a mediocre understanding of the Operating System...and even Bill Gates is quoted as saying "Windows is crap." Hell, Nvidia hasn\'t even developed the chip yet and they\'re already giving out specifications of the systems performance. I would really like to see them pull off 1.2 Trillion Flops for the Xbox. I hate Bill Gates, I really do.
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Ryu, you are a little confused. First of all, the 250 MHZ NV2A GPU was confirmed, not dropped. It was estimated that the NV2A 300 MHz processor could do 300 million pps (w/no effects on). Now with the FINALIZED 250 MHz processor, it can do 250 million pps (w/no effects on). Of course as we all know 66mpps, 250mpps or 300mpps means nothing b/c it\'s not in game numbers. There is a very interesting article called Inside Xbox Graphics by Michael Abrash which gives just how powerful the NV2A is at the 250 MHz speed. It\'s an interesting read and the article gives you some perspective at just how powerful the NV2A GPU is going to be. You might not like MS, but you can\'t deny what Nvidia can do.
I don\'t care how powerful the chip is. The fact that I am trying to clarify here is that MS said 300 million, now that number is changed to much less then what was stated before. What the chip CAN do (theoretically since we haven\'t seen it in action yet on ANY game) is irrelevent to the numbers MS has put out both times. As I said, I don\'t want to debate specs, but fact is, anyone can theorize anything (just like how people theorize the winners of this console war) but so far, just as the console war theories, there is no proof to backup either statement, that is to say, until we actually see some in-game footage and tech demos just dont count.
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While I agree with you for yhe most part, you shouldn\'t say "They\'re headed by a multi-billionare with a mediocre understanding of the Operating System", you do realise Bill Gates has been a massive influence on the direction computing has taken over the past few decades, hell the man helped design the entire BASIC computer programming language in the 70\'s.
Comments like this sort of annoy me. Simply because the man has a lot of money he\'s jealously looked upon as a stupid multi billionaire with a mediocre understanding of the Operating System he helped design being the Chief Software Engineer at Microsoft.
Bill Gates enjoys the position he is in today because the man had a vision that the common man lacks, damn you probably watch the WWF and look upon Vince McMahon in the same light, an evil multi-Billionaire because you believe the act he portrays on TV, another man with great vision.
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Yeah...I\'m getting sick of hearing things like..."This is what we think the games will look like"...
Pffffft...that\'s stupid...:sconf:
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The FACT IS Microc@#ks use Hype.. They hyped the World wide release.. Say BYE BYE too that. They hyped the system specs.. Like sony.. Say bye bye too that.
I wonder how much else they have hyped. The MS Powerhouse XBOX system is a HYPE machine as much as ps2 was.
I donno how well xbox will do. But if MS keep breaking there promises.. There gonna lose more fans, From whatever they did have.
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But hey the xbox has a hard drive. So we can download powerstrip and overclock the Nvidia GPU and achieve much higher speeds and polygon counts :D
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Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
The FACT IS Microc@#ks use Hype.. They hyped the World wide release.. Say BYE BYE too that. They hyped the system specs.. Like sony.. Say bye bye too that.
I wonder how much else they have hyped. The MS Powerhouse XBOX system is a HYPE machine as much as ps2 was.
I donno how well xbox will do. But if MS keep breaking there promises.. There gonna lose more fans, From whatever they did have.
If you are going to be an administrator you had better know a few facts first before spouting off crap....
First of all, if you know anything about silicon chips you would know that the more transistors the chip has the more heat it lets off. Heat is a bad thing when it comes to chips. There are layers of transistors that are messured by "Microns". The Xbox GPU is manufactured by TMSC which has had trouble with lower microns such as .13 or .15 micron, so Nvidia had to raise the micron process which creates heat when means the chip can\'t be clocked as high and instead of producing 150 million can only do 125 million, now if they were able to get a lower Micron level, they could clock it at what it was supposed to be clocked at 300 Mhz instead of the 250 Mhz its now clocked at. The amount of polygons is in relation to how many MHZ the chip can be clocked at. Get it???? There is no hype... Just reality....
The European released was delayed so Microsoft doesn\'t do a Sony. Not everyone has a PS2 even after Christmas and they won\'t for a very long time, this is a public relations nightmare and Microsoft is trying to avoid something like this from happening, they want massive amounts of xbox\'s to be available on store shelves....
The Xbox can do around 100 Million polygons with static lighting and no curved surfaces. The raw (ala PS2) polygon rate is now 250 Million polygons instead of 300 Million that they were shooting for.
Once again people, know a few facts before making really ignorant comments. Its really tiring for people just to spout off without knowing much of anything, at least the xbox can do 100 million and its not like the bogus figures from Sony...
If Sony PS2 can do 66 million, then the xbox can do 250 million. :)
I mean if you like the PS2 fine, but please don\'t act like the Administrator. Microc***s, come on, lets be a little more mature. I expect better from someone who is an Administrator of the BBS.
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Nice post Bill !
Any release date on Service Pack 2 for Windows 2000.
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Dwarrior, SoulGrind is still right.
MS has been hyping their machine (every company does, including Sony).
First the Xbox GPU was running at 300 MHz. Now it\'s \'only\' 250. But still, that\'s an example of HYPE not living up to the harsh reality.
Then it was full DVD playback. Now you have to buy a CD to get full use of it, so that\'s kind of like an addon. That was another \'lie\' / hype.
Oh, and let\'s not forget about their WORLDWIDE launch. I remember some time ago where MS hyped that aspect of the Xbox - launching worldwide, which no console (AFAIK) has done before. HYPE again. Suddenly Europe (potentionally their biggest market) has to wait. There goes that worldwide launch.
Of course they had their reasons for all this - reality, money costs, production problems or whatnot. But that doesn\'t change the fact that MS hypes as much as the next company.
But I guess you won\'t admit that, Dwarrior?
[Edited by Samwise on 12-27-2000 at 06:12 AM]
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Dwarrior=DOCWIZ
you posted the same crap at NN moron.
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Originally posted by DWarrior
Once again people, know a few facts before making really ignorant comments. Its really tiring for people just to spout off without knowing much of anything, at least the xbox can do 100 million and its not like the bogus figures from Sony...
You let your half decent post go right down the drain by making this stupid comment. Let me think, what can Playstation 2 (apparently) do with one light source and textured polygons...that\'s right 33 Million PPS and what\'s the harsh reality in an actual game...about a tenth of that at 3 Million. Microsoft is no different, they give off Numbers like 125 Million PPS with a light source and textured polygons and guess what a tenth of that is...about 12 and a half Million PPS. It is also no coincidence those figures are right around what Michael Abrash gave in his article a couple of months ago.
Microsoft ballooned numbers are just fu[/i]cked up as Sony\'s and the poly drop from theorectical to practical will be very similar, only a raving Microsoft supporting madman could even suggest otherwise.
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well....I was told that if you need to say something but someone has already said it better then you should quote them....so here it is:
Trintius quote:
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Originally posted by DWarrior
Once again people, know a few facts before making really ignorant comments. Its really tiring for people just to spout off without knowing much of anything, at least the xbox can do 100 million and its not like the bogus figures from Sony...
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You let your half decent post go right down the drain by making this stupid comment. Let me think, what can Playstation 2 (apparently) do with one light source and textured polygons...that\'s right 33 Million PPS and what\'s the harsh reality in an actual game...about a tenth of that at 3 Million. Microsoft is no different, they give off Numbers like 125 Million PPS with a light source and textured polygons and guess what a tenth of that is...about 12 and a half Million PPS. It is also no coincidence those figures are right around what Michael Abrash gave in his article a couple of months ago.
Microsoft ballooned numbers are just ****ed up as Sony\'s and the poly drop from theorectical to practical will be very similar, only a raving Microsoft supporting madman could even suggest otherwise.
I agree 100%
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this is what DOCWIZ(A.K.A Dwarrior) posted at the NN forums(in the xbox forum)
For those of you who don\'t understand Micron is the mesurement of the thinness of the transistors, the thinner the transistors the less heat will be released and thus you can clock at a higher Mhz setting. It takes new and special equipment to get to lower Micron levels and it becomes more difficult with every new low. The Xgpu was supposed to be either on a .15 or a .13 Micron (which one, I don\'t know). TMSC creates the chips for Nvidia thus the problem. So if TMSC can\'t reach the new level of micron in time then Nvidia has to underclock the chip from 300 Mhz to 250 Mhz to make it run cooler instead of hotter and in a console this makes all the difference in the world. When you underclock it, the chip can\'t do as many polygons, so 150 Million, now becomes 125 million. That is still pretty damn good, so instead of 100+ million you are talking about 100 Million still (with static lighting and no curved surfaces). 100 Million with Multiple textures, shading, anti-aliased and fully sustained.
wow. 100million MULITTEXTURE, shaded, anti-alised and fully sustained polygons?
not even MS has even meantion the word MULTITEXTURE around any of it\'s polygon numbers, in-fact, they never meantion any effects.
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wow, I wish I could say I cared about that but to tell you the truth I am a gamer and true hardcore gamers care about the GAMES not the textures :)
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Dwarrior.. You can crap on all u like.. Its the truth.. MS are USING HYPE.. Only a FANBOY would think otherwise.
Originally posted by Dwarrior
Microc***s, come on, lets be a little more mature. I expect better from someone who is an Administrator of the BBS.
[/B]
Yes yes.. I was abit immature. I ment too say MicroHype hype the Hype Box like Sony did too ps2. Sorry my mistake. :D
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Damn, If I sound this stupid when fighting, count me out from now on.....:D
Seriously, XB will end up fine unless MS ****s up/lies MORE than Sony is/has. And no, so far they haven\'t. I\'ll get it, cause I get em all. And I\'m not rich either. Anyone....and I mean ANYONE (in the US anyways) can get every system. When I got N64, NGPC, DC, I was legally BELOW the federal, and state poverty line (of income). I don\'t wanna hear some lazy ass kids saying \'we can\'t afford it!\'. I was a kid! (well, when I got 64 anyways.) I worked my ass off, and got em. And managed to help pay bills.
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I don’t believe any of this M$ crap!
Its true the Port-box is hyped..
I wont believe anything until I see it with my own eyes!
/FASTson
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I\'m starting to become a casual gamer because I do not understand what the heck you guys are talking about when mentioning specs, power, graphics chips, I mean does it really matter.
Only way MS wins, is if Sony makes a mistake, point blank. Right now Sony is moving in the right direction by already planning a relaunch of the PS2 to keep the hype going about there system.
Many casual gamers don\'t care about a dumb ass hardrive they probaly want even use it. Sony needs to less concentrate on the hardrive and focus on what casual gamers want(These are the people who make up the market anyway)
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I\'m starting to become a casual gamer because I do not understand what the heck you guys are talking about when mentioning specs, power, graphics chips, I mean does it really matter.
No. Not a damn bit. Specs, polys, mip-maps, bip-baps, and shnook-crooks don\'t matter one damn bit. They are worthless. The only thing that matters is the developers and their ability to command the machine. The gap between their goals and the machines limitations. That\'s all that matters. And to be honest, what the hell good is 150 gajillion polygons when your machine can only process AI and collision detection for 40 characters?
Folks, we\'re getting into overkill now. As long as these jackass console makers keep hyping up the specs and poly counts, gamers are gonna expect realism. Developers are going to spend more time with visuals than with gameplay itself to live up to those expectations. The leap between 32bit and this gen here is significantly larger than that of 8 to 16bit. Developers never mastered the 32bit realm of gameplay. 3D platformers still suck. People are more concerned about poly counts than gameplay. We\'re recycling old ideas that worked on 32bit machines, and not innovating new ideas for 128bit machines because we\'re too damn busy trying to live up to the polygon/frame rate expectations of consumers buying into hype. I want developers to hit some kind of ceiling so that they have to stress gameplay to get an advantage over their peers.
And why in the hell do we tolerate 2D in our other forms of entertainment (movies, television shows, etc), but DISCOURAGE it in our videogames? Why does it HAVE to die?
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I\'ll eat an elephant if the Xbox comes even near 100mpps in-game during gameplay.
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Do you guys know if the Xbox and Gamecube will be able to do really good 2D graphics? I know the PS2 can do it just fine, Sony even bragged about its limitless sprite drawing capabilities when the PS2 was early in development.
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Here\'s a question: How are some of you defining "hype"? So far Microsoft have been relatively quiet and only release what they are aiming for. I have seen no aggressive ad campaigns, no huge Xbox "blow outs" at the various conventions, no PR folk stumbling over themselves to explain why the drop in specs only helped solidify the "Revolution", etc. The hype start very soon but I have not seen any yet. Releasing specs and announcing plans for the future simply to not qualify as "Hype" to me.
The only things closley resembling hype I have seen are from developers and the Xbox\'s fanbase.
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I will give you a company that didn\'t hype their console, actually two that underhyped their consoles.
Sega for their Dreamcast and the upcoming GameCube from Nintendo. Funny, these are both from companies who both used to have a little trouble with ballooning. :)
Eric Jacob
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I define hype as saying:
"This machine will deliver 300 million polygons per second!" - when it will not.
"This machine will have DVD playback right out of the box!" - when it will not.
"This machine will be released worldwide simultaneously!" - when it will not.
"This machine will have a 300 MHz GPU!" - when it will not.
But every company hypes. Microsoft included. A lot of people figured that PS2 would be able to render 66 million polygons in a real game - just like a lot of people were pissing their pants about the Xbox\' 300 million polygons per second. Well, at some point you become immune.
I actually got to congratulate Nintendo on doing a fine job of not blowing GameCube out of proportions. They\'re not saying "Our console will do 50 million polygons per second!". No, they\'re rather doing the opposite - saying 6-12 million polygons per second. I suspect that to a VERY \'unhyped\' number. The GC has whole a lot of potential IMO.
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("While I agree with you for yhe most part, you shouldn\'t say "They\'re headed by a multi-billionare with a mediocre understanding of the Operating System", you do realise Bill Gates has been a massive influence on the direction computing has taken over the past few decades, hell the man helped design the entire BASIC computer programming language in the 70\'s")
HUH? did i miss something? he did what?
the man is a con-artist, rip-off looser,
although very rich :)
helped design the Basic language? yeah right.
he ripped it off, and added his own spin on it.
gee, that takes all kinds of smarts.
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Hype can be a good thing but to much hype is bad because people will almost certain to be completely disappointed.Crap like 66 or 300 mpps shouldn\'t even be stated in the public spec sheets.When someone sees the Xbox or PS2 spec sheet and see it says it can perform 66 or 300 mpps that will mislead people to believe that the PS2 and Xbox can actually do that in there games.I think only developers should know the theorectical maxium poly count for the consoles.People don\'t need to know about a number that they will never see.
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Okay :) I do not agree that early over shots that are changed before the system is even shown (the DVD was another change but hardly hype) are hype but the 300mill certainly is.
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i belive sony has lived up to it\'s hype LONG ago, when they showed the MGS2 game footage, GT3 graphics, world rally championship, the bouncer....all of these games destroy anything on the DC and will look good even when xbox and GC come...
what do the nintendo and MS fanboys expect? do they expect their consoles to make MGS2 and GT3 to look like ****? because that is what it seems like to me.
the PS2 will have games that look better than GC and xbox games, if you don\'t think so then get your head of your ass and smell reality.
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I\'m not going to get into the whole MS reputation topic, that we always get in, when we speak of the XBox.
As for the specifications being lowered. In my opinion, MS always knew they couldn\'t live up to the ones previous set. It was a simple way to draw some attenion to the Xbox. They can\'t draw attenion by going "Its slightly more powerful then the PS2!". Now can they? No. So, what do you do in that situation? You lie, in typical buisness fashion. Now they\'ve done that, so they have one last resort to pull the Xbox out of the gutter. That is games. Come E3, they better have a very impressive booth, otherwise the Xbox will be stillborn. With less then a year to the tenative release , they still haven\'t shown us the actual console or the controller. Gamers (casual and \'hardcore) need to see these things, including REAL TIME game footage.
On the note of REAL TIME game footage.. MS doesn\'t have a franchise to fall back on, like Nintendo does. Nintendo can show up at E3 with demos of Mario and Zelda, and that will attract a HUGE booth and excitment in itself. MS doesn\'t have this option. So, they better have some compelling games that look quite a bit better then what the current PS2 market will be. Otherwise, gamers aren\'t going to find a reason to buy the system.
I don\'t care how much money and hype MS put out. They cannot sell a noteable amount of Xbox on those two factors alone. Just like they can\'t sell a noteable amount of Xboxs on ports of PS2 games (i.e, Silent Hill 2 MGS2).
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Thats why this board is good. There is respect for Sega and Nintendo, but no respect for Microsoft :D
But if the Xbox steals all sony\'s exclusives, I\'ll get one. Other forums aren\'t like this one. MSXBOX forums are the WORSE. Those fanboys are so arrogant.
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Originally posted by Animal Mother
Thats why this board is good. There is respect for Sega and Nintendo, but no respect for Microsoft :D
But if the Xbox steals all sony\'s exclusives, I\'ll get one. Other forums aren\'t like this one. MSXBOX forums are the WORSE. Those fanboys are so arrogant.
I\'m sure they say the same about us.
And some of us respect MS. I don\'t respect them. But, I don\'t disrepect them. I\'m netrual, when it comes to them.
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MS has been full of it from the beginning. Only a fool would have believed that X-box is as powerful as they numbers put out.
I do think it will be very powerful, but come on!
You\'ll be stupid if you believe that it will be almost 10 times as powerful as maybe Nintendo\'s system(100 Mp/sec VS 6-12 Mp/sec)...as system launching around the same time. I know technology doubles like every 18 months, not 18 days.
Anyhow, any fool can tell you MS is full of it. They are new to the market and they will do anything to make their system look waaaaayyyyy more advanced than anything.
Maybe it is more powerful, but not significant enough to force consumers to stick with it, because it\'s power would be a major advantage.
Still, they are many people out there believing those outrageous specs.
First it was 300 Mp/sec, then 150 Mp/sec, now 125 Mp/sec. It\'s 125 Mp/sec, yet stil, it only drop to 100 Mp/with all effects? Bull****. Who the hell was it that said so anyway? They need a reality check. Fast!
I\'ll drop dead if it\'s games push 20 Mp/sec with only half the textures and lights at E3!
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Power can be a disadvantage. Sony made the Playstation to dethrone the Super Nintendo, and it also killed the N64 (market share, and developer wise, but not fanboy wise!)
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ooooo, This Bill Gates kid looks really scary. Because he is smart and a good businessman is it impossible to think that he designed something? Although I have to admit he does look like the type to steal code and add his own spin to it. Just look at him, I\'m scared already.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa236.g.akamai.net%2Ff%2F236%2F1428%2F2w%2Fimages.viewimages.com%2Fwm%2FOU000811.JPG&hash=ffa8ec861ac048a9af7c6c4ce0a3baf25945ac20)
But Seriously, Gates is a smart guy and a good ass businessman. Final.
BTW, This is not the same Nplayer that I remember. I am officially declaring a conspiracy. Something is not right. There is no way someone can go from an ardent Nintendo Fanboy to the heart of the Sony camp. Things like that just don\'t happen in real life. Something is up.
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Originally posted by IcebergSlim
ooooo, This Bill Gates kid looks really scary. Because he is smart and a good businessman is it impossible to think that he designed something? Although I have to admit he does look like the type to steal code and add his own spin to it. Just look at him, I\'m scared already.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa236.g.akamai.net%2Ff%2F236%2F1428%2F2w%2Fimages.viewimages.com%2Fwm%2FOU000811.JPG&hash=ffa8ec861ac048a9af7c6c4ce0a3baf25945ac20)
But Seriously, Gates is a smart guy and a good ass businessman. Final.
BTW, This is not the same Nplayer that I remember. I am officially declaring a conspiracy. Something is not right. There is no way someone can go from an ardent Nintendo Fanboy to the heart of the Sony camp. Things like that just don\'t happen in real life. Something is up.
Amen to that. Gates may steal code. But he is a good buisness man. Otherwise MS would of never became the empire that it is. And he would of never became the worlds richest guy.
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well its lookin more and more like PS2 is gonna come out ahead when its all said and done. X-box was the only close competitor but its looking as their losing ground as their specs are suddenly changing. Dreamcast hasnt even been close to PS2, their a nonfactor, gamecube just wont hang without that dvd capability, its looking like PS2 is gonna run away with it. i know this is gonna piss off a lot of losers, i mean people but if you want the best you must get PS2. FACT!
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Big deal. So they dropped from 300million to 125million. Your all babbling already that Microsoft wasn\'t delievering what they promised( or were lying about it). NEWS FLASH, Sony did the same thing. Besides we haven\'t even seen the games running of the final hardware yet. You guys give sonyfanboys a bad name.
Oh I\'m still going to buy a PS2 but theards like this are really pathetic.
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Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Dwarrior.. You can crap on all u like.. Its the truth.. MS are USING HYPE.. Only a FANBOY would think otherwise.
Originally posted by Dwarrior
Microc***s, come on, lets be a little more mature. I expect better from someone who is an Administrator of the BBS.
[/B]
Yes yes.. I was abit immature. I ment too say MicroHype hype the Hype Box like Sony did too ps2. Sorry my mistake. :D [/B]
Show me some hype, go ahead and show me something thats not true based on their new specs. Like I said, they had to pull down the speed ala Mhz because of heat issues with higher micron processes. Sony can\'t use this excuse to pull down their inflated specs because they have always been inflated. You are just afraid that the PS2 is inferior and it is to almost every platform of the next generation, it can\'t even kill the simple Dreamcast.
Want to see hype... PS2 with 66 Million or 75 million (depends on who you talk to) and Sony said its going to change the world in the same way the printing press changed the world. Now thats hype... Most of everything that was said about the PS2 is untrue.... :)
Its funny, when people talk against Sony, you ban them, no problem, then you can bash the xbox or anything else at your disgression, what a hypocrite you are!
I think its time to talk to Bjorn to get your power taken away. You use your power for the wrong reasons and continue to abuse it almost daily.
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XBox, *sigh* It just doesn\'t.... **do it** for me.
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You let your half decent post go right down the drain by making this stupid comment. Let me think, what can Playstation 2 (apparently) do with one light source and textured polygons...that\'s right 33 Million PPS and what\'s the harsh reality in an actual game...about a tenth of that at 3 Million. Microsoft is no different, they give off Numbers like 125 Million PPS with a light source and textured polygons and guess what a tenth of that is...about 12 and a half Million PPS. It is also no coincidence those figures are right around what Michael Abrash gave in his article a couple of months ago.
Microsoft ballooned numbers are just ****ed up as Sony\'s and the poly drop from theorectical to practical will be very similar, only a raving Microsoft supporting madman could even suggest otherwise.
Microsoft did not make up the numbers, Nvidia is working on the chip and thus could not risk overheating at a higher Micron level. Nvidia has a lot more experience in 3D than Sony and Toshiba. Come on lets not kid ourselves here. Nvidia could not meet that high of a standard because the micron process that they need complete the chip at 300 Mhz is not there. Its not about masking false numbers its about overheating and the chance it can happen if not underclocked. 100 Million can be made possible but it requires static lighting and it requires optimisation of the software. We are talking about sustained performance, not the silly little 66 million that can\'t even be drawn on the screen for the PS2.
Sony PS2 = 66 Million polygons with nothing on them, no texture, no lighting, no shading, no nothing. All processors working at the same time with no physics, no AI no nothing.... Not sustained
Xbox = 250 million with the same as sony\'s PS2. Not sustained.
Xbox = 100 Million polygons per second at 640x480x32 bit using static lighting, no curved surfaces, sustained with two textures, anti-aliasing, static shading full Physics and AI. This is possible, now of course its going to be harder and you can go higher but you are going to have to drop features like go to single texture and no anti-aliasing but yes it can be done and Abrash says so and his article was asuming 250 Mhz.
I said its possible but I didn\'t say it would be pretty, because things like lighting and shading is static, but still it can be done. Please go ahead and try this on a PS2.
Now, even Epic Games admited the xbox can do super high geometry of 90 million non static. Of course even Inhabitants said that they can do much higher geometry than the PS2.
Y\'all just don\'t know very much or don\'t want to know, now its really about the games and thats where xbox will have a choice to either do or die.
Nvidia has more experience in 3D than most of the companies out there and they have SGI patents and technologies and now of course 3DFX and S3 patents.
Sony should have chose either ArtX or Nvidia to do the 3D technology because they are the real 3D leaders.
I mean Nvidia has to make the XGPU use 125 million polygons instead of 150 Million (or to use the PS2 terms, they now have to use 250 million polygons instead of 300 million).
Microsoft didn\'t lie, they just had a change of plans because Nvidia\'s chip manufacture could not make the change to a lower Micron process. In Sony\'s case they just outright lied and there was no change of plans...
Why is it that most Sony PS2 fans arn\'t very bright when it comes to technology? These are simple concepts but yet no sony fanboy can understand this.
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Originally posted by Huddy
XBox, *sigh* It just doesn\'t.... **do it** for me.
I guess someone is supposed to care about what Huddy thinks. We could go out and get tons of games that are average right now, assuming you can find a PS2.
Now the PS2 is all hype, even the games, don\'t get me wrong, I think the launch was okay, but come on lets not kid ourselves here. The PS2 isn\'t terrible at all, its just that its no where near what Sony anounced.
Come on even the fanboys have to agree inside that the PS2 wasn\'t even near what was promised. MGS2 sure, thats nice and everything but still the other platforms will have better. Go to daily radar, even those sony biased guys admit the PS2 isn\'t all its been cracked up to be and the games arnt even coming out yet. Have you looked at the PS2 games selling in Japan? They arnt selling and go try the USA they arnt selling there either, lets not kid ourselves boys. I mean so what the PS2 isn\'t the end all of consoles, big deal, just deal with it like a man and move on with your lives. I know I have.... Life goes on kids... :)
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Oh jesus,
you\'re kidding me right??
I wasn\'t expecting the PS2 to be the 2nd coming if thats what you\'re thinking. Anyone who did is a fanboy. PS2 has strong games. Stronger than anything else out on the market. I think that next year the console will surely show up all the other ones. Nintendo doesn\'t stand a chance, Sega will die off, Microsoft will get some of the older crowd and maybe some younger players, but I doubt they\'ll ever really threaten Sony.
I think its hysterical that some people think that XBox is the 3rd coming and that it will smack the console industry and make other consoles its "*****es". It\'s not going to happen.
In fact, the console wars won\'t last into 2008 I think. By then we\'ll be playing on our PS3\'s and having download-able FF18 characters or something...
That a better answer Warrior??
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Originally posted by Dwarrior
Show me some hype, go ahead and show me something thats not true based on their new specs. Like I said, they had to pull down the speed ala Mhz because of heat issues with higher micron processes. Sony can\'t use this excuse to pull down their inflated specs because they have always been inflated. You are just afraid that the PS2 is inferior and it is to almost every platform of the next generation, it can\'t even kill the simple Dreamcast.
haha whatever man.. Fact is.. Ps2 is the MOST likely too lead this console war. LIKE IT OR NOT.. All NON bias websites beleave this. Most NON bias gamers believe this. I have a DC man. I\'ll get a ps2.. Maybe a xbox in a few year. I know ps2 isn\'t as powerful as NGC and Xbox. I don\'t really care. It sounds too me you care more about it. I DON\'T GIVE A S@#T man. I\'m a gamer. I will enjoy my ps2 games as much as i do with DC.
Xbox WORLDWIDE LAUNCH.. That is CALLED hype man. Xbox didn\'t come through with it. They HYPED developers in telling them they would release there SYSTEM WORLD wide on the same day.. Guess what. Europe ONE of the BIGGEST markets in the world. Have too wait 18 months. They sold MORE psx systems then USA.
Want to see hype... PS2 with 66 Million or 75 million (depends on who you talk to)
It CAN do 66 or 77 million polys a sec... Sony didn\'t hype that man. Its FACT.. It can render them in FLAT shadded polygons.
They HYPED the TOY STORY graphics part.
and Sony said its going to change the world in the same way the printing press changed the world. Now thats hype...
I haven\'t heard this. I\'ve heard alot of things sony promised. But nothing like that.
Most of everything that was said about the PS2 is untrue.... :)
Name some for me man.
Its funny, when people talk against Sony, you ban them, no problem, then you can bash the xbox or anything else at your disgression, what a hypocrite you are!
What.. I don\'t BAN people for going agaisnt sony. Otherwise YOU WOULDN\'T BE HERE. I ban morons who just BASH the Ps2,Xbox,DC or NGC systems too create trouble.
Just because i\'m a admin that means i can\'t have my own OPINION.. Get lost man. I\'m not a F\'N zombie. I\'m allowed too have my OWN opinions. I don\'t care for XBOX like mm doesn\'t care for NGC.. I don\'t have too kiss arse of every console developer because i\'m a admin. This is a PS2 site if u haven\'t NOTICED. I BEARLY bash a system. I just find it funny how PEOPLE like u. Bash everything they can on ps2. But when the same thing happens too Xbox they can\'t HACK it. if you don\'t like it just LEAVE man. No one is making you stay.
I think its time to talk to Bjorn to get your power taken away. You use your power for the wrong reasons and continue to abuse it almost daily.
Almost daily. LOL keep on crapping man.. PLEASE if i HAVE bashed the XBOX daily.. Show me ALL my posts of me bashing it.. hell show me any of the OTHER systems you may think i\'ve bashed. Bjorn, MM and me have a Understanding man. We have our OWN opinions. Bjorn won\'t care if 1 person doesn\'t like me. Off course some people won\'t like me. It happens too all Mods and admins. The people i ban are normaly people that are ASKING for it. People that MEMBERS agree should be BANNED. Bjorn knows what i post. he DOES read the forums everyday. I\'m not a bias gamer. Like i said. I will probley end up getting a Xbox some years down the track. But right now all i want is a ps2 and dc.
MS hyped the XBOX.. Sony Hyped the PS2.. How THE HELL am i a bias or Fanboy person when i EVEN say Sony hyped the ps2.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. :rolleyes:
[Edited by §ôµÏG®ïñD on 12-28-2000 at 04:29 AM]
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Just so everyone knows. Dwarrior IS docwiz. Thank you. :D
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Dwarrior is a mud slider!!!
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Hey.. No FLAMING man. Don\'t do it agian.
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WTF? I\'m just telling the facts!
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Originally posted by Potatocake
WTF? I\'m just telling the facts!
And u know this how? personal knowledge maybe?
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Ok Docwiz, reality check.
Show me some hype, go ahead and show me something thats not true based on their new specs.
[/b]Some people really have a hard time understanding reality huh? I\'ll show you some MS HYPE - in fact I already have, so I\'ll just copy it from before:
"This machine will deliver 300 million polygons per second!" - when it will not.
"This machine will have DVD playback right out of the box!" - when it will not.
"This machine will be released worldwide simultaneously!" - when it will not.
"This machine will have a 300 MHz GPU!" - when it will not.
But every company hypes. Microsoft included. A lot of people figured that PS2 would be able to render 66 million polygons in a real game - just like a lot of people were pissing their pants about the Xbox\' 300 million polygons per second. Well, at some point you become immune.
[/b]And please DOCWIZ, don\'t give me any "but you\'re just a mean fanboy" crap. Notice how I also talked about Sony and their hype? Just like SoulGrind did. But you just have to point out what you don\'t like and scream \'Sony fanboy! You\'re just against Xbox! You\'re abusing your powers! (insert more crap here)\'. Get real Doc. :rolleyes:
Don\'t give me any "But nVidea couldn\'t make it small enough to run at 300 MHz". It\'s still hype. I could also release a product - and write in the official specs \'50000 GHz GPU\'. Then later change it to 20 Mhz because it couldn\'t be done. HYPE.
I still think Xbox will be a great machine but I\'m not a blind fanboy like some people *cough*. You don\'t mind trashing PS2, but when it comes to Xbox you\'re overly sensitive. Grow up Doc. Let me quote you with slight alterations:
I mean so what the Xbox isn\'t the end all of consoles, big deal, just deal with it like a man and move on with your lives. I know I have.... Life goes on kids...
[/b]Follow your own advice and stop being a friggin\' hypocrite Docwiz.
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BTW, Xboxjunkie (yeah, your name says it all):
Big deal. So they dropped from 300million to 125million. Your all babbling already that Microsoft wasn\'t delievering what they promised( or were lying about it). NEWS FLASH, Sony did the same thing. Besides we haven\'t even seen the games running of the final hardware yet. You guys give sonyfanboys a bad name.
[/b]
Big deal? From 300 million to 125 million... That\'s not a big deal, eh? It\'s called HYPE my friend. But when MS does it you don\'t have a problem with it - you just hurry up and says "Well, boohoo, Sony did the same! (But MS didn\'t really do anything)". Please man, you\'re sounding like Docwiz now. You both give Xbox fanboys a bad name.
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They won\'t get it man.. If they STILL don\'t. I guess that shows how bright they are.
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Originally posted by Dwarrior
Nvidia has a lot more experience in 3D than Sony and Toshiba. Come on lets not kid ourselves here
Toshiba? Are you talking about the Gamecube? The GCN\'s GPU is developed by NEC (http://www.nec.com) and they are far from beginners when it comes to computers and graphics.
uhhh, If you are not talking about GCN then disregard this post.
[Edited by IcebergSlim on 12-28-2000 at 09:02 AM]
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Originally posted by Samwise
Big deal? From 300 million to 125 million... That\'s not a big deal, eh? It\'s called HYPE my friend.
Actually, it\'s a drop from 300 million to 250 million (300Mhz down to 250Mhz)! The result is, 150 million down to 125 million with textures. That\'s not a big deal.[/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, hope you all had a Merry Christmas. :)
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Ok I was sleeping a bit there.
So no, it\'s not a BIG deal. But it\'s still hype. Just as much as all the other things were (i.e. 300 million polygons per second). Admit it, MS hypes as much as any other company does.
[Edited by Samwise on 12-28-2000 at 03:03 PM]
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Here is what I don\'t get.
How can you be a fanboy for a system you\'ve never even see a REAL picture of?
I am one of the most un-biased people around here. But come on. Whats the point in being a fanboy for a system no one has seen? I can see being interested in it, but your taking it a bit to far man.
Which brings me to another point. Your giving Xbox fans a bad reputation. You come to a PS2 forum (lord knows why) and trash the PS2, touting that the Xbox is better, yet the Xbox isn\'t out even.
And Nathan abuses his powers? This is news to me. Maybe your only saying that because he banned you for coming here and causing problems. And yes, that is what you do. You never come here just to debate. You come here with full intention of causing problems.
As for him abusing his powers daily. Uh. Sure..Whatever you say man.
MS uses hype like every other company. What is so hard to accept about that? But of course, once you found out they lowered them, you had to come here and try and defend the Xbox. Didn\'t ya?
And before you call me a Sega/Sony fan. I also update news for a.....XBOX site. Geeze..:)
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Let\'s face some facts guys.. whether you like MS and the Xbox or not, you will NEVER see a game displaying anything like 100 Mpolys/sec. You will NEVER see a PS2 game utilizing 66 or 75 Mpps (depending on if your talking about the EE or GS). Both sets of figures were pulled from some dark smelly region of the body, usually utilizied for the evacuation of bodily wastes.
I don\'t care how \'powerful\' the GPU or CPU of the XBox is. 100 Mpps is totally unrealistic. I know hardware restrictions and some software, and that figure is TOTALLY bogus. Think about it, if you had 10 figures, each utilizing 100,000 polygon models, at 60 frames per a second, thats only 60 Million polys/sec! The game hasn\'t been invented yet (on the PC or console) that includes a SINGLE 100,000 polygon model, much less utilising 10 of them on the same screen at the same time. Do you realize how many clock cycles it would take to render just ONE 100,000 polygon figure? To calculate all the curves, lighting, opacity or translucency values, and shadows? Nvidia\'s T&L may be able to do some wonderful things, but I doubt it can completely BYPASS the laws of computer programming.
Plus, this doesn\'t even touch on the need to perform AI and Physics EACH TIME before those models can be rendered. Things like how fast various parts of the model are moving, how they are moving (direction, orientation, rotation,etc.), environmental effects (wind, water, field of vision, etc.). And what about reading and interpreting the controller(s)? All of these \'steal\' clock cycles and resources from graphics rendering. Ever wondered why GT3 \'only\' uses 10 Mpps and 5,000 Poly car models? Because they needed the \'headroom\' to do the detailed physics necessary to the game.
Anyway, thats just my take on it..
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Have you looked at the PS2 games selling in Japan? They arnt selling and go try the USA they arnt selling there either
DC games aren\'t selling well either. The typical consensus is that the games SEGA are pumping out are phenomenal (and I agree) .. yet they sell like **** in Japan. Doesn\'t prove a thing.
Nvidia/3dfx, the leaders in 3D technology? More like extra hype and hoopla. I\'ve had a Voodoo card since the early days when you had to order one. And I\'ve been keeping up (mostly) since then. I remember 3dfx and their saying that the Voodoo 2 would be able to crank out ~3 million polygons @ 60fps. LOL! :laughing: Nvidia is the same way. The GeForce 2 is capable of ~15mpps, yet there\'s not one game on the PC that does even a third of that. While the GeForce *may* be able to do it, the CPUs cannot keep up.
Q3A usually used as the benchmark pushes no more than 600k pps. (10,000polygons/scene x 60fps) ... Everything is hype, do you think the companies are going to tell you the honest truth? Hell no. PS2 was overhyped, and X-Box is as well. For those of you expecting Toy Story esque graphics on your X-Box (in real-time) you will be in for a hell of a disappointment. I won\'t deny Sony\'s BS either, they sure as hell hyped the PS2. You gotta take the machine for what it is, and not what they say it can do. There will always be ups and downs.
On another note, people are quick to jump and say that Sony failed on their promise. Who\'s to say what the PS2 will be capable of in 2 years? Remember folks, everything is but mere speculation. Both positive and negative.
- dm
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oh no,
The big M is going to kill the hardware enthusists that wanted the fastest thing on the market that could push specs well beyond anything else. Oh well. I\'m not really biased I\'d say, but I understand Sony\'s selling points more so than Sega\'s, Nintendo\'s and Microsofts.
I think its interesting that people will buy new things, just to buy new things. That\'s kinda what I think about the Xbox, people will buy it, just cuz its new.
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Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Just so everyone knows. Dwarrior IS docwiz. Thank you. :D
Just so everyone knows, you are offically confused. I don\'t know who docwhiz is. Look at my IP address. I would hope it would be someone who would agree with me who has some brains to understand simple concepts.
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y\'all are just stupid... sheeesh.... I mean give you simple concepts and you can\'t handle it...
I didn\'t say about the xbox being any good. I said the specs were not ment to be exaggerated.
The PS2 can\'t do flat shaded polygons at 66 million, it can\'t even do any shading at all. Flat shading is like Virtual fighter if you want to know what its like, but the PS2 can\'t do 66 million with any kind of shading at all, it can only put them via the framebuffer, thats why its so bogus.
The polygon levels is an outright lie.... The Xbox can do 100 million realistically. Now saying that you might have to have static shading (not flat shading), but I mean like per pixel shading you would have to give up and dynamic per pixel lighting you would have to give up and curved surfaces you would have to give up, but still you could do it and it is realistic, even Abrash says that. Now if you use pixel shading and per pixel lighting this figure goes down around 60 million polygons. Its not a lie though and can be done realistically, just depends on what you want. :)
Nvidia thought they could produce the chip at 300 Mhz but had to go down to 250 Mhz because of the high chip thickness level, but its not hype. This means that at a raw polygon rate the xbox can\'t do 300 million but only 250 million raw polygons, just like the PS2 can do 66 million raw polygons but realistically its more like 25 million and of course more effects you use the lower all chips go.
What you all consider hype, I consider a lie and thats just not true. Microsoft could have used hype and said the xbox could render 300 million polygons like the PS2\'s 66 million figure but they didn\'t, they were very conservative, not like Nintendo\'s conservative numbers but still.
As to games we will have to see, but certainly not exaggerated like this thread seems to think, not at all. They tried to hit 150 million but they can only do 125 million, thats no big deal. :)
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Originally posted by Dwarrior
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Just so everyone knows. Dwarrior IS docwiz. Thank you. :D
Just so everyone knows, you are offically confused. I don\'t know who docwhiz is. Look at my IP address. I would hope it would be someone who would agree with me who has some brains to understand simple concepts. [/B]
I did check your ip. Do u want mm and Bjorn too back me up on this.. You see. With VBB we can check a persons ip. then get the forum too search for OTHER people with the SAME ip.. Guess what.. DOCWIZ came up with your ip. Same ip, Same isp, Same person.
Whatever u think is a LIE is hype DW. Otherwise u MUST say PS2 Hype was also a LIE.. If not you are just another FANBOY.
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to settle this, i copied this DIRECTLY out of control panel, i merely edited the IP for his protection.
Users that have used IP Address: 63.203.***.***
Docwiz [edit] [find more post by user] [find more ips for user]
Dwarrior [edit] [find more post by user] [find more ips for user]
mm
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y\'all are just stupid...
You are stupid..... you might not have been calling me stupid there but im still calling you stupid here.
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Hey Docwiz
what\'s up?
:laughing:
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Let me get this straight.
When Sony hypes its lies.
When MS hypes its them just having problems, but being honest.
Uhm..Yeah
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Originally posted by Dwarrior
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Just so everyone knows. Dwarrior IS docwiz. Thank you. :D
Just so everyone knows, you are offically confused. I don\'t know who docwhiz is. Look at my IP address. I would hope it would be someone who would agree with me who has some brains to understand simple concepts. [/B]
I did check your ip. Do u want mm and Bjorn too back me up on this.. You see. With VBB we can check a persons ip. then get the forum too search for OTHER people with the SAME ip.. Guess what.. DOCWIZ came up with your ip. Same ip, Same isp, Same person.
Whatever u think is a LIE is hype DW. Otherwise u MUST say PS2 Hype was also a LIE.. If not you are just another FANBOY. [/B]
How could I post if my IP is banned. Another thing my IP address is dynamic and not static and I am using Saber.net here in Ukiah, California. I don\'t know my IP Addy because its different everytime when I dial up...
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Let me get this straight.
When Sony hypes its lies.
When MS hypes its them just having problems, but being honest.
Uhm..Yeah
:rolleyes:
I didn\'t say Microsoft lied at all. You can do 100 million if you like I said strip off dynamic stuff like shading and lighting and no curved surfaces. Sony outright lied, you can\'t even do 66 million even flat shaded.
Sony lied about 66 million because even with the most basic abilities you will never see that number, never. End of story. At least with Microsoft\'s numbers you can meet them realistically. Nvidia or Microsoft didn\'t say that xbox could do 250 or 300 million polygons sustained.
Dude, I am just telling the truth. Sony said PS2 could do 66 million, want to show me even with flat shading how this can be done???? Answer there is no way in Hell, its impossible.
I showed you how you could do 100 million and Michael Abrash shows you as well.
So please don\'t be such a jackass, just because you like to protect Sony doesn\'t mean we can\'t all see the light and understand phony numbers.
At least with the Xbox you can meet that 100 Million polys, it might not be easy and you might have to sacrifice dynamic lighting and shading and curved surfaces but it can be done. Sony can\'t even do 66 million even at its best and its not even realistic.
Xbox, gamecube, and PS2 will all take hits for dynamic lighting, shading, and curved surfaces, so the more attractive games will average around 60 million polygons per second on the Xbox, thats more than what is possible on the PS2.
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Almost every company hypes up their system. Sony did and Microsoft too. Why is everybody making such a big deal about it.
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I haven\'t banned all docwiz ips man.. Just the one starting with 63.203.###.###, That is the STATIC ip.
But that ip had your name on it with DOCWIZ.
You have the SAME ISP, SAME IP. That means...
1. either DOCWIZ lives with you.
2. You have BEEN too docwiz house and posted with his com.
3. You ARE docwiz.
Its not hard too get ANOTHER ISP.. A dialup with a dynamic ip.. I can change my ip myself.
[Edited by §ôµÏG®ïñD on 12-29-2000 at 07:25 AM]
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You truly are a god SouL. :D
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Originally posted by Dwarrior
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Let me get this straight.
When Sony hypes its lies.
When MS hypes its them just having problems, but being honest.
Uhm..Yeah
:rolleyes:
I didn\'t say Microsoft lied at all. You can do 100 million if you like I said strip off dynamic stuff like shading and lighting and no curved surfaces. Sony outright lied, you can\'t even do 66 million even flat shaded.
Sony lied about 66 million because even with the most basic abilities you will never see that number, never. End of story. At least with Microsoft\'s numbers you can meet them realistically. Nvidia or Microsoft didn\'t say that xbox could do 250 or 300 million polygons sustained.
Dude, I am just telling the truth. Sony said PS2 could do 66 million, want to show me even with flat shading how this can be done???? Answer there is no way in Hell, its impossible.
I showed you how you could do 100 million and Michael Abrash shows you as well.
So please don\'t be such a jackass, just because you like to protect Sony doesn\'t mean we can\'t all see the light and understand phony numbers.
At least with the Xbox you can meet that 100 Million polys, it might not be easy and you might have to sacrifice dynamic lighting and shading and curved surfaces but it can be done. Sony can\'t even do 66 million even at its best and its not even realistic.
Xbox, gamecube, and PS2 will all take hits for dynamic lighting, shading, and curved surfaces, so the more attractive games will average around 60 million polygons per second on the Xbox, thats more than what is possible on the PS2. [/B]
I protect Sony? Your totally wrong. If anyone, I protect Sega. And I\'ve protected the Xbox plenty of times on this forum. I am very unbiased when it comes to the systems. Hell, I will buy and Xbox come launch.
But, I am also not naive enough to believe it will be this excellent system that puts an end to other systems.
I also realize, unlike some, that the graphical differences bewteen the systems are going to very slight. Not enough to even really matter.
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Originally posted by Dwarrior:
Xbox, gamecube, and PS2 will all take hits for dynamic lighting, shading, and curved surfaces, so the more attractive games will average around 60 million polygons per second on the Xbox, thats more than what is possible on the PS2
Ok, 60 million PPS, rate taken from a 60 FPS game, that would be 1 million polys per frame. Would a GAME company use 1 million polys for their characters/designs. If there is, how many? Good experienced companies will balance their gameplay and graphics. In my opinion, GameCube will have more chance of winning compared to X Box. What\'s the use of super powered console if game companies are already more than happy to use just about a portion of it\'s power to create a good game.
In PS2, take The Bouncer for example, one of PS2\'s most heavy graphics and anticipated game out there. I\'m not sure how many polys are there in a second, probably about 12 million polys a sec or more and look, it\'s already a superb game with more than 200,000 polys per frame (I have to admit that these are just "assumed-as-it-seen" figures).
Now GameCube is somewhat about equal or more to PS2 in graphics power and I say it\'s a good move. But M$, they thought appearance (specs and features) is everything since they thought they\'re the most powerful "thingy" on the planet. The inside (games, software) is as important, and how about new ground breaking features no one has seen or even thought of instead of the same poly/frame wars.
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unless PS2 completely fails or the Gamecube turns out to be a total dissapointment, there is no way that microsoft will win. Specs won\'t save the Xbox, it\'s all about popularity. And the Xbox is virtually unknown or unconsidered by the casual gamer.
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Originally posted by ChocoboSquared
unless PS2 completely fails or the Gamecube turns out to be a total dissapointment, there is no way that microsoft will win. Specs won\'t save the Xbox, it\'s all about popularity. And the Xbox is virtually unknown or unconsidered by the casual gamer.
There is a thing called advertising. And what makes things popular? Perhaps a little advertising and the promotion of some stellar games. Sony did both for the PS1 so why can\'t MS or Nintendo.
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Here we have Microsoft hyping X-box to be much more than it really is, to distance it from the competition.(plus you have this hypocrite/fanboy Dwarrior/DocWiz)
300 Mil polygons
8:1 texture compression
300Mhz processor
100 Mil polygons/with all effects
What a load of ****!
Next we have Sony who pertty much opted for the same effect when announcing their system. Also accompanied by some fanboys that are just thrilled by the fact that, Microsoft pulled that same bull-**** stunt.
Put it all together and what do you get?
Fanboys that are so determin to prove X-box could put out almost 100 mil polygons with all effects. And Fanboys claiming that PS2 game can certainly look better than X-box games.
I know neither of the two parties wants to hear this, but I\'ll say it any fu*king way!
X-box With absolutely all FX, lights, and textures, expect these games to push an arverage of 10 million polygons/second. That number may be a little below or above, so 10 is average. Don\'t be confused though, 10 is more than enough to do what ever one pleases. CG movies like TOY STORY run below that number, and don\'t even come close to the number of effects that Next-gen Graphics are capable of. BTW, you\'ll almost not be able to tell the difference between GC and X-box games. One or two exclusives(on each system) might play a tough-o-war beween which has the best graphics.
PS2: Fanboys are always quick to point out it can push 20 million polygons with all effects....more than GC\'s 6+. So naturally, they would get the idea that PS2 games will look better than X-box\'s games with 10 million polygons/second.
However, let me remind such fanboys that PS2\'s max polygon power with all effects, meant; with fog, lighting, one texture, filltering, mip-mapping, anti-aliasing, motion blur/depth of field, alpha blendind, and one or two others. THOSE EFFECTS ARE A FAR CRY FROM WHAT X-BOX CAN DO IN HARDWARE!
fanboys must have failed to realize that technology has come a far way since PS2 GPU development. It\'s so amazing because it\'s only a year or two after, and you have tons of new features, never before heard of, and the great part is...it\'s all in hardware!(less hit on performance compared to big hit with software coded effects). Hardware effects and features like; Bump mapping, multi-texture layering, 8 lights in hardware, hardware TCL, Vertex skinning, EMBM, vertex-lighting, 3D textures, realtime shadow mapping, pixel-shading, animation blending, per pixel AA & FSAA, S3TC, Z-buffer compression, dynamic lighting/shadow effects, , and lots more are possible on X-box(and GC) in hardware.
Technically, PS2 can do these, but they would have to do it in software. When that is done, it takes a significant hit on performance. So much so, that if you do major stuff like Multi-texturing(or especially multiple lights) there\'s not much of those other effects you could do. So that 20 million number is very insignificant and will drop...drop far, depending of how many software effect you want to support. There\'s no way you\'ll see all those effects on PS2....the hardware is not unlimited you know.
If such effects like ONE extra lights, takes a performance hit of millions of polygons/second on GameCube and X-box(mind you, that\'s an easy hit), imagine if you those effects
on PS2(in software) that can take almost double the hit. Many of you don\'t seem to understand this concept. PS2 is powerful, but even with X-box specs being lowered, I wouldn\'t go as far as claim it\'s on par or above X-box.
Still, you guys here can\'t bare anyone to say such things.
So I won\'t say it directly to you. But for me, I wouldn\'t count on PS2 games ever looking better than X-box games(not even on par)
As for the X-box fan boys...DREAM ON!
You will never see 100 million polygons with all effects(and I mean all)...not 50, not 40, not even 20!
PS: GameCube and DreamCast fanboys must be enjoying this squabble!
[Edited by GC-PS2-DC-XB on 12-31-2000 at 03:37 PM]
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GC-PS2-DC-XB, the specs you just gave for xbox are the old ones. It has 6:1 texture compression ans only a 250Mhz GPu. The 100million polygon per second thing was what Nvida says not Microsoft.
The way I see it if Sony was able to do it with the PS then Microsoft can do it with the Xbox.
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I know those were "old specs"!!
Hello, that\'s the whole point...full of it!
Also, Nvidia can\'t go as far as to officially claim Specs for X-box, even though they made the chip, they can only come forth with MS\'s consent or after they come forth first. All those bull crap numbers you saw, MS was sporting them on it\'s home page, I don\'t know where or why you guys find these excuses from. They\'re just as pathetic as the specs MS was claiming...and still are.
Even in the GDC transcript, Microsoft were claiming those numbers. Where did you got off accusing Nvidia?
Even spec comparison gave out by MICROSOFT, has those inflated figures.
Sony did it so MS could do it too???? Dude, you seem to enjoy lies, and false reports! Why?
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Originally posted by GC-PS2-DC-XB
I know those were "old specs"!!
Hello, that\'s the whole point...full of it!
Also, Nvidia can\'t go as far as to officially claim Specs for X-box, even though they made the chip, they can only come forth with MS\'s consent or after they come forth first. All those bull crap numbers you saw, MS was sporting them on it\'s home page, I don\'t know where or why you guys find these excuses from. They\'re just as pathetic as the specs MS was claiming...and still are.
Even in the GDC transcript, Microsoft were claiming those numbers. Where did you got off accusing Nvidia?
Even spec comparison gave out by MICROSOFT, has those inflated figures.
Sony did it so MS could do it too???? Dude, you seem to enjoy lies, and false reports! Why?
GC-PS2-DC-XB, the XBox will be quite a bit more powerful than PS2. Now, if you want to believe that XBox will only be able to do 10 mpps, then that\'s you. I\'ve read the Micheal Abrash article a few times and it clearly states otherwise (the NV2A at the 250MHz speed). What\'s so funny to me is that everyone here seems to be a tech head. People can make claims like PS2 can do 10 mpps or XBox can\'t do 40 mpps, blaa, blaaa, blaaaa. How do we know? Since probably 99.9% of US (yes I\'m including myself) know absolutely nothing about specs and what those specs mean, we haven\'t a clue as to what we are talking about. I think we should see what the developers have to say. It\'s clearly a fact that some developers have had their issues w/PS2 while other\'s like the machine. I\'ve read several article from developers working on the XBox and they have praised the machine and have made claims of reaching high polygon counts early in the stage (using GPUs with less power than the 250MHZ NV2A). Many developers are already claiming their approval for the machine and the performance they are getting. I don\'t know what that means but I can\'t wait to find out.
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Who cares about polygon count and processor speed? If a console\'s games suck, then no one will buy it. just like the Atari jaguar(Not that the games sucked.Its just that no one bought it).
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You are getting me wrong, I think!
You say that you know nothing, yet, you read Ambrash\'s articles. And you still don\'t know anything? So why read them?....
The problem with you all, not you exactly...but many other, is that they read these articles...they see X-box is capable of such high numbers and stuff. Naturally they somehow skip over the fact that thoes number include very little(and standard) effects, such as lit, shaded, and anti-aliaized polygons. You want pretty games, yet you want these outrageous figures....it can\'t happen that way.
Then you read more articles and they usually only mention very little effects....HELLOOOOOOO! X-box is capable of a multitude of effects, lights, and texture layers.
And in many cases, when ever Ambrash, Allard, or Backley point out that more of there effects are being used, you always hear numbers below 15. In many cases, these numbers don\'t even point out that absolutely all features were in use. So numbers could be potentially lower. I never said or even implied that X-box is not capable of 60-100 million polygons, but you can\'t have pretty games and these numbers as well. I don\'t think you want to be playing a games with no lighting what so ever, or no special features, or no standard features. Damn, get it into your heads man.
BTW, this is for all those who have no idea what they speak about or what to expect from X-box. This is X-box\'s GPU at 250Mhz:
"Xbox GPU will be able, even at 250 MHz, to handle up to 125 million Gouraud-shaded, two-texture triangles per second, complete with transformation, clipping, and perspective projection. With one infinite hardware light added, the rate will be at least 62.5 Mtris/sec.; with eight local lights, at least 8 Mtris/sec."
http://www.ddj.com/articles/2000/0008/0008a/0008a.htm
125 Mill --> if you want to play with no light, if you do manage to see(magically) there is no fancy effects.
62.5 Mill--> you have light now, still two textures, and no really fancy effects. Is that what you want? Tons of physical detail, and a bland/dull look!
8.5 Mill --> Here were have 8.5, I said 10(see, I even made it bigger) and I suddenly become a fool. Well take it from Mr. Backley then...8.5, still only 2 textures, all lights, still no fancy effects. That number could only be smaller with 4 textures, bump mapping, environment mapping, Shadwo mapping, per-pixel processes, vertex lighting...and many more.
You see, I took the assumption that, this is all effects, even though it is not all effects, because I know X-box will be at least be very comparable to GC. I also said 10 millions, when it really is 8.5.
Yet, there are people who insist of spreading erroneous information, claiming 30-60+ mil polygons/second with absolutely all effects, and even 100 mill. Helloooo fools! X-box has up to 4 textue layers and 8 lights, using 1-2 textures, and 0-1 lights to achieve such high numbers IS NOT ALL FU*KING EFFECTS, GET THAT IN YOUR DUMBS SKULLS!
You people are getting dumber by the seconds...damn man!
It\'s making me sick, now!
X-box is already powerful enough, stop making it more than it really is.
[Edited by GC-PS2-DC-XB on 12-31-2000 at 07:44 PM]
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I havent seen Microsoft post 300 million in realtime with textures. Y\'all are just being silly now because you can\'t find anything to fight about.
Is it me or do PS2 fans want to fight about who really is superior and who really has the hype. Everyone knows that Sony lied so this is no problem.
You really know when something is really inferior because their users want to fight and nitpick all the time. Hense this thread, you would think the PS2 fans would be playing the PS2 instead of wasting their time on this thread, but as you can see its not enough. :)
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Sup Docwiz?:D
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Yeah ****Wiz, but at least were not like some lowlife forum troll whose only purpose is to spread lies and half-truths in the hopes of reinforcing their pathetic low self-esteem complexes, because our console is actually HERE instead of still being in the PAPER stage of development.
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Screw all this tech talk, I\'m getting sick of people saying that Microsoft is lying about xbox\'s specs. This post is pathetic.
No one really cares about poly counts. Its the games that people care about. 2001 is when PS2 gets its first round of heavy hitters. MGS2, ZOE, Silent Hill 2, Onmuisha, Final Fantasy X, and many more. These games will either make or break the PS2. You\'ve better hope that these games are better than the launch ones( I hope so too !!!) or PS2 is sunk (in Japan at least).
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Both developers (ms and sony) Hyped up there consoles. FACT.. Like it or not. They did. get over it. Xbox fans say the PS2 was a lie.. Yet they CAN NOT Admit that the XBOX too had lies told about it.. "but MS fixed there Mistake" they say, haha yea then Sony did the same thing.. Come on. Both systems have hype, Simple.
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Amen to that.
I\'ve been saying it for I don\'t know how long.
:)
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For those whom doesn\'t understand what HYPE means.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Fbubbaroces%2FHype.jpg&hash=5a4707253e2dc6c286e47ea5c620f44d3c5d700b)
Both MS and sony said things too hypen there systems. Too make people believe they were something they are not. That is hype.
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:laughing:
Nice,Nathan.
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Originally posted by Dwarrior
I havent seen Microsoft post 300 million in realtime with textures. Y\'all are just being silly now because you can\'t find anything to fight about.
Can\'t find anything \'to fight about\'? :laughing:
Why don\'t you comment on GC-PS2-DC-XB\'s good post about the Xbox\' real performance? I\'m sure a smart fella like you could easily prove him wrong. After all, it was you who claimed 100 million polygons with all effects on. :rolleyes:
Come on Dwarrior, don\'t kid yerself. Xbox is powerful, but not as powerful as many people once thought. MS hypes. Sony hypes. MS \'lies\'. Sony \'lied\'. Just admit it, instead of using the argument of "but Sony lied too, so ha!". So if someone steals it\'s ok for you to do the same? Geeze man.
I think the GC has a good shot of competing with Xbox graphics wise. We\'ll see some amazing games on both systems, so don\'t even try and call me a biased fanboy. I know Xbox and GC are the most powerful consoles (they\'d better be after coming out 1-2 years after PS2).
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Originally posted by Samwise
[BWhy don\'t you comment on GC-PS2-DC-XB\'s good post about the Xbox\' real performance? I\'m sure a smart fella like you could easily prove him wrong. After all, it was you who claimed 100 million polygons with all effects on. :rolleyes:
[/B]
He wish he could prove me wrong. It\'s only fanboys like him that go around spreading/believing false information.
he already knows these things, but nooooooo, he wants X-box to be out putting figures like 60 mil+, even with 8 lights, and 4 textures. He could only be an ass!
You all heard it, and you heard it with facts, X-BOX IS CAPABLE OF AROUND 10 MILLION P/SEC WITH ABSOLUTELY ALL "IT\'S EFFECTS"!(and that\'s making things slightly more than they are) SO DON\'T LET ANY X-BOX FANBOY SET YOU WRONG!
The thing is, that number is astonishing enough, considering how much fancy effects and features(lights and textures) it can put out. WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO INFLATE THAT NUMBER?
Then to make things worst, he comes to forums with such insignificant infromation, about this and that. Most other can\'t understand a word he saids, or don\'t have back up links, so they can\'t argue with him.
But I know that fool, Dwarrior/Docwiz, and he know he can\'t play that sh*t with me. All fanboys know when they see facts, that they must shut ta hell up!
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Some of u r so weird. 300 mpps is the number the xbox can do WITHOUT any effects, it is a pointless number. 125 mpps is how much the Xbox can do with 2 effects, also a pointless number. Next the specs were not lowered but they were finalised, they can grow again though. (The problem was they couldn\'t get micron size small enough to support 300 mhz. If they can lower the micron size it will be 300 mhz again.) Next u say the Xbox won\'t be able to do more then 15 mpps with effects. THATS BS. The Geforce 2 can do 19mpps so don\'t u think a card thats 2 generations ahead of the geforce 2 can do ATLEAST 19 mpps.
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Originally posted by Raven
Some of u r so weird. 300 mpps is the number the xbox can do WITHOUT any effects, it is a pointless number. 125 mpps is how much the Xbox can do with 2 effects, also a pointless number. Next the specs were not lowered but they were finalised, they can grow again though. (The problem was they couldn\'t get micron size small enough to support 300 mhz. If they can lower the micron size it will be 300 mhz again.) Next u say the Xbox won\'t be able to do more then 15 mpps with effects. THATS BS. The Geforce 2 can do 19mpps so don\'t u think a card thats 2 generations ahead of the geforce 2 can do ATLEAST 19 mpps.
One would think, that I made it clear enough.
Obviously, you don\'t know much about graphics and how they work, do you?
I bet you don\'t, cause just like everyone else, you are looking at numbers alone, so you know that PS2 can do 20 mill polys with all effects, therefore it sounds like BS if someone says X-box(which is obviously more powerful than PS2) can do below 15 mil with all effects. In that case it makes no sense to even try to explain to you.
But just let me say, "all effects" on PS2, is not the same as "all effects" on X-box. Maybe a little logic can take you an inch further, but that\'s all I\'ll say.
It seems that MS and even fanboys brainwash you guy so well, that the truth/facts is now bullSh*t
geeez!
PS: Did you even read that quote I put up a few posts back?
Probably not!
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Originally posted by GC-PS2-DC-XB
Originally posted by Raven
Some of u r so weird. 300 mpps is the number the xbox can do WITHOUT any effects, it is a pointless number. 125 mpps is how much the Xbox can do with 2 effects, also a pointless number. Next the specs were not lowered but they were finalised, they can grow again though. (The problem was they couldn\'t get micron size small enough to support 300 mhz. If they can lower the micron size it will be 300 mhz again.) Next u say the Xbox won\'t be able to do more then 15 mpps with effects. THATS BS. The Geforce 2 can do 19mpps so don\'t u think a card thats 2 generations ahead of the geforce 2 can do ATLEAST 19 mpps.
One would think, that I made it clear enough.
Obviously, you don\'t know much about graphics and how they work, do you?
I bet you don\'t, cause just like everyone else, you are looking at numbers alone, so you know that PS2 can do 20 mill polys with all effects, therefore it sounds like BS if someone says X-box(which is obviously more powerful than PS2) can do below 15 mil with all effects. In that case it makes no sense to even try to explain to you.
But just let me say, "all effects" on PS2, is not the same as "all effects" on X-box. Maybe a little logic can take you an inch further, but that\'s all I\'ll say.
It seems that MS and even fanboys brainwash you guy so well, that the truth/facts is now bullSh*t
geeez!
PS: Did you even read that quote I put up a few posts back?
Probably not!
[/B]
No i didn\'t read it. Must have missed it. BUT I KNOW THAT XBOX HAS MORE EFFECTS THEN A PS2!!! I\'m not an idiot.
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Hmm.... guess Micro$oft is wasting their money on campaigning then. With GC-PS2-DC-XB around to back M$ up, who needs $500 mil on campaigning :D
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Originally posted by shadowflare
Hmm.... guess Micro$oft is wasting their money on campaigning then. With GC-PS2-DC-XB around to back M$ up, who needs $500 mil on campaigning :D
Back MS Up?...How so?
Maybe you can\'t read too well....
anyway, in case you missed it(which you probably did)
I\'m stating to these MS fanboys, that X-box total max polygon number with absolutely all effects and features, is below 15 mil p/sec, not 100 mil.
At the same time I stating that YOU Sony fanboys(and even X-box fanboys) shouldn\'t get the wrong idea about that number, cause that number is with X-box pushing a load of effects, 4 times the texture layers, and 8 times the HW lights as PS2.
No one is being defending actually. Just bringing all you fools back to reality.
I quess your statements proves you\'re a true Sony fanboy.
Yeah, you gotta be one!
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c\'mon folks, microsoft bought up the rest of the 3DO\'s and repackaging it as "x-box"
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Originally posted by krom
c\'mon folks, microsoft bought up the rest of the 3DO\'s and repackaging it as "x-box"
WTF? X-Box looks nothing like 3DO. You are only saying that because someone else said it in another thread. Have you ever seen a 3DO? I you had you would lnow that the only resemblance is the color.
You fanboys amuse me.
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Well GC-PS2-DC-XB, you seemed to get really fired up about the facts when pushing X Box to its limits and comparing it to the PS2 according to your knowledge. And I understand that what you have posted so far are to straighten up the "bended" facts mentioned earlier. But still, you have to admit that everything you have said and all those figures mentioned are still your assumptions of facts. The real facts are the hands of the makers and within the X Box itself, which is still light years away from consumers\' grasps. Heck, the PS2 is already here and can anyone tell me the REAL maximum pps if you push it to the limit? Now how about X Box?
And by the way, here\'s the order of the consoles that have and will come out; DC-PS2-GC-XB and how about the order in terms of POWER; DC-PS2-GC-XB, where do we go from here? Hey, it\'s just natural that the younger the age of a console, the more powerful it\'ll get. And I have to admit, PS2 is waaay below X Box\'s reign of power, I\'m not a fanboy but I still buy PS2 and so did the other 4.5 million people. Hmm.... I think I\'ve trailed off a bit from the main discussion here :p .
Now GC-PS2-DC-XB, one question, how sure are you about your theory? :bounce:
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Damn, I thought this thread died when it left the main forum. I\'m surprised to see it so huge in this area though. I should look here more often, it\'s pretty hilarious. I mean, this thread actually called for the return of Docwiz, LOL, hilarious.
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This thread was in the main forum? Hmm.. didn\'t notice that, Oh well.
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Time will tell if XBox is all that, or if it is just another wannabe pretender to the throne ;)
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Toxical, don\'t bring back old topics.
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Oh. My. God.
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Originally posted by Ryu
Oh. My. God.
Becky. Look at her butt! It is so big.
She looks like one of those...rap guy\'s girlfriends.
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I like big butts and I cannot lie, you other brothers can\'t deny, when a...
AHHHHHHH!!!! No! now you have done it!!!!
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
I like big butts and I cannot lie, you other brothers can\'t deny, when a...
AHHHHHHH!!!! No! now you have done it!!!!
Eric Jacob
Muhahaaaaaa!! I\'m listening to the mp3 now, I had to go and download it. :D
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lol you and me both brother
you and me both
dang this song is great - really brings back the memories - whats weird is how i know all the words after all this time :p
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Originally posted by Ryu
Source: http://come.to/magicbox
Now, I\'m not even going to debate tech specs in anyway shape, or form on this board. However, What exactly does all this mean? 300 million to 125 million... sounds like a big hit before graphical enhancements and such. I just wanna know exactly what this means to people who are looking into getting an X-Box.
Xbox never has been able to do 300 million. Microsoft never put out that number publically as a realistic number. Thats raw polygons that won\'t be displayed and does not count.
Lets start at 110 Million, this is with no pixel shading, but with normal shaded polys with two textures.
110 Million is possible if you do a PSX game with two textures(ie no dynamic lighting, No pixel shading, etc..)
Microsoft reduced the spec from the original 150 Million polys to get more Xbox GPU\'s out and for stability (ie heat).
Honestly, it does not mean much to me, the hardware is there for the future and we will see some games with a ton of polys coming over the next few years. I mean DOA3 is a first gen game, just imagine what can be done in four years! :)
The hardware is there for the present and future and the games are the most important aspect here. :)