PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Saotome on March 16, 2001, 11:13:13 AM
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What do you all think of Nintendo opting to have custom-made optical disks for the Gamecube. They are 8cm wide, but only hold 1.5 GB, about one-third the space of a regular DVD disk.
NINTENDO\'S REASON
The main reason Nintendo opted for an exclusive mini-disk is for pirating reasons. DVD disks are now very easy to pirate, whereas this new optical disk will require new "burners" that will be able to crack the complicated coding. The downside to all this protection against piracy is that the disks will only hold 1.5GB. Although that is an amazing amount of disk space (more than twice the space of a Playstation CD), it still does not compare to the 4.8 GB of a PS2 or X-Box DVD.
DOES IT MATTER?
Many are enraged at Nintendo, blaming them for making the same mistakes they did with the Nintendo 64. This is what I think. 1.5 GB is an incredible amount of space, and although I would have preffered if Nintendo had found some way to make the Matsu****a-made disks hold more it will help them keep down the pirating that occured with so many Playstation games. Thus, they get more of a profit.
The truth is that most Playstation 2 games that are on shelved at this moment do not use the DVD disks, because they do not need the space and those disks are much more expensive. Therefore developers are not buying these 4.8GB space disks yet. The only instance in which games will require this much space is for loads of movie cut-scenes and music. Therefore, Nintendo has made it so that their mini-disks are around the same price as a Playstation CD, and if developers need more space they can always put games on multiple disks. No one ever complained about those in the past.
Another option was that these disks could be used for future handhelds, but I find that these disks would be too large for a "handheld".
IS THIS BAD OR GOOD?
Reply to this thread and tell me what you think about the optical mini-disks, and whether or not they will ultimately help Nintendo and developers, or go the way of the cartridge.
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Hey is this the same Saotome from Zaibatsu and IRC? Anyways, I think this decision will help Nintendo in the long run. No matter what you think, piracy does cut in on company profits and is a pain for small developers trying to hit it big in the $6+ billion videogaming industry.
Besides you can use both sides of the optical disc for 3 gigs of data. It\'s FMV that is the real megabyte hogger. We all know Nintendo prefers to use real-time graphics instead of pre-rendered cut scenes. Look at MGS or Zelda; they have no pre-ren. cut-scenes and they are considered to be videogame classics. And when you think about it, FMV is only good for one viewing. After that most game players just FF to the next level when coming across it again.
Bottom Line- 1.5 - 3gb of raw data is more than enough for modern gaming. But we will see...
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I think it is good for Nintendo to go for that type of media.
Lets go back years when the Nintendo 64 was released in Japan. 2 Days later the Doctor 64 backup unit was released. This was a masterpiece to games because games were only 4-32megs. Easily found on the internet. Nintendo has done very well on there own software sales. But alots has been lost because of these backup units.
Hence for the Gamecube it is best to go this way. Because we can all see that piracy continues with the Dreamcast and PS2. Maybe Nintendo will finally break that barrier.
We ShAlL SeE..
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"Many are enraged at Nintendo, blaming them for making the same mistakes they did with the Nintendo 64."
Then these people are pissed off for a stupid and moot reason. What they should really be concerned about is what Nintendo plans to do with their licencing fees. Yeah, these smaller disks won\'t hold as much info as a standard DVD disk. Big deal, it\'s not the same problem as what the N64 had since CD\'s can be swapped wheras cartridges cannot. Therefore, how much data is the NGC limited to per game? As much as it needs.. you just do a lot more swapping than with the PS2\'s DVD\'s. It\'s not like the N64 where you had ONE 64meg cart being an absolute total.
Now this is where their licencing fees come in. Since the Mini-DVD\'s are proprietary.. Nintnedo could ask whatever price they want for them, expecially if they impose some sort of "You must buy the disks from us or you don\'t produce the game" sort of sanction. How much will they charge? Will they charge per game or per disk? How are they planning to update developers with this new burning/encryption hardware? How much will that cost? These are the questions you need answers to before accusing Nintendo of pulling the same mistakes as they did with the N64.
Mark my words though, developers WILL begin regularly making games that fill even the 4.5 gig DVD\'s within two years time.
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I think it is an excellent choice for Nintendo, but some people get the disc confused as just another form of the expensive cartridge choice. It isn\'t. Cartridges are extremely pricey to manufactor, where as the mini-disc isn\'t. And just because it is a proprietary format, doesn\'t mean it will be expensive. Remember, the GD-ROM was for Sega, and it was no more expensive (maybe less expensive) then the current PS2 games that are on DVD.
The GC can compress textures at a 10:1 ratio, which saves a huge amount of space for the disc. Then, take in account if for some reason the game needs to be larger they can always throw in another disc just like in the regular CD days. There is little reason to think the small disc will deliver a smaller game then the PS2. As it currently stands, none of the developers are taking advantage of the massive space on DVDs and when they do, it will probably be mostly fancy cinemas.
Also, SonyFan does bring up a good point. Due to the format being proprietary, Nintendo could charge as much as they want for the games. I don\'t think they will, but they could. One of the biggest flaws for the N64 was the cartridge format and the price of games. Legend of Zelda: Majora\'s Mask is $70 dollars! So is Conkers Bad Fur Day. That is alot to pay for a game. We will have to wait and see if Nintendo is going to charge us out of the ass for GC games, but I doubt they will. If they charged near $70 dollars for a game this time around, it would be suicide.
But, piracy will continue. Matsuhita will be producing their own version of the GC that will play DVDs, so in theory someone could copy the contents of the Mini-disc onto a DVD-R and then use it on that unit. Of course, for this to happen DVD recorders would have to come down on price and become more mainstream. When this happens, Sony will also find itself being pirated like with the original PSone. And there is no \'fool-proof\' way for Nintendo to gurantee no one pirates the games. Remember folks, there is always someone out there that is looking for a way to get free games and there is always a way. Just takes one guy (or gal) with alot of free time to discover it.
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Wow! I\'m actually quite surprised at the positive response here, and I\'m happy most of you see it the same way I do. Oh, and THX, I\'m not at Zaibatsu or IRC, but I do post at the Enix and HTLOZ message boards.
About prices for these disks. Nintendo truly wants to become competitively priced with the Gamecube, so I think around launch time to expect the same sort of prices that current PS2 game have, and that then the prices will lower as the system becomes available.
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proprietory disks = more money for nintendo
they jacked developers with cart costs, now they get to do it again
good grief
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Originally posted by mm
proprietory disks = more money for nintendo
they jacked developers with cart costs, now they get to do it again
good grief
If you read anything above, maybe you\'d realize that Nintendo will be distrbuting its disks at a price similar to the Playstation CDs. And like Living-In-Clip mentioned above, the Sega Dreamcast also had its own little exclusive disk, the GD-ROM, which was not too expensive for developers.
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And Nintendo power said that 236 Super Mario 64 fit into one disc! That is really powerful, and Way a go Nintendo!
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I agree with everything said here except the part about Nintendo only using Real-time graphics.
Im sure the only reason Nintendo didnt use real-time graphics on the N64 was because they wouldnt fit.
Dont be surprised if you start seeing a lot of FMV\'s on the Gamecube.
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Faith- "Real-time graphics" are considered to be raw data rendered on the fly by the machine\'s internal gpu & cpu. The data is saved as a set of instructions of which poly goes where, leaving the console to do the hard work, thus saving starage space on the medium. Nintendo did this all the time with the N64, with great results imo.
FMV is prerendered material, pre-processed on a graphics workstation, then saved as bulky video & audio information on the storage medium. It looks pretty but takes up a hell of a lot of space.
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Originally posted by Crippler
I think it is good for Nintendo to go for that type of media.
Lets go back years when the Nintendo 64 was released in Japan. 2 Days later the Doctor 64 backup unit was released. This was a masterpiece to games because games were only 4-32megs. Easily found on the internet. Nintendo has done very well on there own software sales. But alots has been lost because of these backup units.
Hence for the Gamecube it is best to go this way. Because we can all see that piracy continues with the Dreamcast and PS2. Maybe Nintendo will finally break that barrier.
We ShAlL SeE..
Unlikely. GC has quite a few expansion ports. So? So like V64 or whatever that cdr system is, a backup drive could be used, like a hdd or in the future maybe, a dvdr drive, custom fit to GC. Pir8s always find a way... unfortunatly for them, and fortunatly for Nintendo, with GC it may be so hard, or expensive that it doesnt catch on like the current situation...
I\'m all for the mini DVDs, I\'m mean, 1.5 gig is more than enough space, and theyre so friggin cool looking!
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Originally posted by Red_Hair_Dude
And Nintendo power said that 236 Super Mario 64 fit into one disc! That is really powerful, and Way a go Nintendo!
and nintendo power = full of crap
236 x 32 megs = 7552 megs
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Originally posted by mm
and nintendo power = full of crap
236 x 32 megs = 7552 megs
Actually, you can just use math for that equation mm. It was not only Nintendo Power that stated this.
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People in this day and age still read Nintendo Power? Sheesh.
- dm
- what\'s in the f\'cking box?
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now im only a chimp, but i would say its safe to believe that SM64 was compressed to hell and back to fit on a 32 meg cart.
math = the universe
even i know this
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When N64 & SM64 came out, the fancy smancy compression routines weren\'t discovered yet, most notabely Factor 5\'s Audio compression scheme which saved an immense amount of space. Acclaim loved it and also talked of the many new schemes that were being found a year or 2 after N64\'s first release. Turok 2\'s many levels would have been impossible to make without em.
You think SM64\'s texture data was compressed at a 10:1 ratio? Just asking, but I\'m not sure if the N64 was capable of that, especially in its 1st generation games.
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Originally posted by Saotome
Actually, you can just use math for that equation mm. It was not only Nintendo Power that stated this.
That is, "you can\'t just use math".
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Originally posted by mm
and nintendo power = full of crap
236 x 32 megs = 7552 megs
I\'m afraid he\'s ALMOST correct and your kind of wrong. The GameCube disc can hold 196 times the data that Mario64 could hold. And Mario64 was not 32 megs, it was 8MB. I know Nintendo uses a different way of saying it so don\'t bother with that argument(they use megabits I think).
As for the topic- the GameCube disks do more good than bad. \'Nuff said.
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Originally posted by mm
proprietory disks = more money for nintendo
they jacked developers with cart costs, now they get to do it again
good grief
Your right Nintendo Strikes again !
If they made Walkmans they would be the only company trying to sell us a 8 track for £300...
Yeah this is a great idea from Nintendo, go for a medium that no one else is using or has given up using, they did this with the cartrage, just so that they can get there fat profits from the developers and to drain the gamer dry.
So the New style disks hold about 1/3 of what a DVD can hold ?
yeah great plan Nintendo :rolleyes:.
But when all is said and done i was actually thinking that that where going to make it a cartrage system AGAIN !.
P.S.
Dear MM could you please eat less gassy foods as i am hidding under your bed, and you don\'t half Fart a lot when you sleep.
If you are wondering what i am doing there, well i can\'t it\'s a matter of INTERNATIONAL security !
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sm64 was only 64 mbits? hmmm, ill accept that
236 x 8 = 1888 still over the limit
at any rate, DVD\'s can hold 19 gigs, double sides, dual layered
god forbid we see a 19 gig pokemon game some day,
ARRRRRRRRRRGH!
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Originally posted by mm
sm64 was only 64 mbits? hmmm, ill accept that
236 x 8 = 1888 still over the limit
at any rate, DVD\'s can hold 19 gigs, double sides, dual layered
god forbid we see a 19 gig pokemon game some day,
ARRRRRRRRRRGH!
Oh Good God No !
the world is still trying to recover from the first wave of Pokemon game, we need time to heal the wounds !
the thing is that even though there new medium only handles 1/3 of a DVD, will it mean that games will suffer ?
i.e
Ultra short games
Limited voice features
Fewer developers wanting to use the new medium ?
which could lead to a slow release of games like we saw with the N64 !
only time will tell !
p.s.
MM i have move from under your bed your safe now, i heard plans of a full war band of Nintendo Trolls to assasinate you. but your safe now !
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yeah, if nintendo was to assasinate someone, it would be mm.
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:laughing:.
Just think IF the worst happens to the Gamecube , Nintendo could blame MM for it !
or it could just be that no one buys it enought to compete with the rest.
But that this Rate they could still balem MM.
hey Clyde why/when/how dose MM hate Nintendo so much ?
Was he like me ?
did he learn of there plans to make Pokemon compusory in all elementry Schools the world over ?
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nintendo abandoned people like mm. nintendo doesnt want to pay attention to its gamers that grew up playing thier products.
they want to focus on the 4-8 age demographic, and the wallet of that 4-8 year old\'s parent.
at any rate, nintendo hasnt made a game that mm gave his seal of approval to since "mario kart"
even the great "goldeneye" and "perfect dark" fail in comparison to what mm expects
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they want to focus on the 4-8 age demographic, and the wallet of that 4-8 year old\'s parent.
carful Clyde you will get us into terible trouble with the Fanboys for a comment like that, even though the VAST majority of Nintendo games are aimed at "people" who don\'t have to pay any bills or even go to school.
Nintendo want our Childern because they are a SOFT target, get the kids young and they will be with you for a couple of years , and the parents have to pay for the games.
This even extends to the pokemon (from Books To Cards and games)
As the Pokemon says GOT TO CATCH THEM ALL ?
Got to catch what ?
our Childrens SOULS ?
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bah, we all know mm owns the nintendo "fanboys" like trin.
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Originally posted by Clyde
nintendo abandoned people like mm. nintendo doesnt want to pay attention to its gamers that grew up playing thier products.
they want to focus on the 4-8 age demographic, and the wallet of that 4-8 year old\'s parent.
at any rate, nintendo hasnt made a game that mm gave his seal of approval to since "mario kart"
even the great "goldeneye" and "perfect dark" fail in comparison to what mm expects
Aww. Lighten up Clyde, you\'re going to upset everyone that does like Nintendo.
But, I have to agree. Nintendo\'s whole "change" seems extremely forced and half-hearted to me.
Still, that is off topic.
My question is, would it of killed Nintendo to go with a regular format? I mean, there will be a version of the GC that could play DVDs , so just go with the friggin\' DVD format. It is larger, cheaper and everything.
I don\'t see a "good" side to the new mini-dvd format. It doesn\'t offer anything great, unless you count smaller space.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I don\'t see a "good" side to the new mini-dvd format. It doesn\'t offer anything great, unless you count smaller space.
Its all about the piracy protection. Everyone here is so against piracy so I would think they would applaud this move. Pirates are going to have a hell of a time finding blank mini-disks and a hard time finding a drive that can burn them and even more trouble trying to break the disks encryption. I think that is a good move on their part. It may be a smaller capacity but you can always use multiple disks. I know I am not the only one who read that Square was planning to use a whopping 10 DVDs for FFX(?). I think that after this generation a lot of people are going to be using mini-disks. In everything from consoles to handhelds.
BTW, Mini-disks can also be double sided if the developer chooses to use that feature.
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i fondly remember people saying it was impossible to copy and play N64 carts.
where theres a will, theres a way
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Copy a cart ?
who would want to do that ?
infact inthe later days of the Dire Nintendo 64 , no developers wanted to touch it either ONLY j/k or am i ? :laughing:.
Nintendo Please change your name to "BOAT" and "MISSED" in Japanese.
But than again
The Software pirates are sitting back one day saying...
Pirate 1 : Hey lets barke into Nintendo market
Pirate 2 : But Boss that will mean we have to handle cartrages
Pirate 1 : Yeah your right let\'s just burn CD insted
Pirate 3 : But Boss , Nintendo clame that no one can pirate there software, plus they are charging some people £40 + for a game each.
Pirate 1 : Did they , that Bunch of B@stards, ill show them, Johny get my equipment. We will just do like we always do, STEAL mobile phones and start building some Carts :D.
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Originally posted by Gohan
Its all about the piracy protection. Everyone here is so against piracy so I would think they would applaud this move. Pirates are going to have a hell of a time finding blank mini-disks and a hard time finding a drive that can burn them and even more trouble trying to break the disks encryption. I think that is a good move on their part. It may be a smaller capacity but you can always use multiple disks. I know I am not the only one who read that Square was planning to use a whopping 10 DVDs for FFX(?). I think that after this generation a lot of people are going to be using mini-disks. In everything from consoles to handhelds.
BTW, Mini-disks can also be double sided if the developer chooses to use that feature.
Right, its a good idea for pirating. But, here is the problem, with Matu****a making their own version that would play DVD, it would make it once again easy to pirate the games, now wouldn\'t it? In theory, couldn\'t a skilled pirate (i.e, someone who sits and does this non-stop) copy the mini-disc games over to DVD then play a burned copy of the game on DVD in the Matu****a model of the GC. I mean, DVD-R prices are coming down and some manufactors already sell them built in at a reasonable price.
I\'m not saying it would be easy. But, it sort of defeats the purpose.
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I\'ll say again, clearer this time. Pir8s will have GC cracked within the 1st year.
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Right, its a good idea for pirating. But, here is the problem, with Matu****a making their own version that would play DVD, it would make it once again easy to pirate the games, now wouldn\'t it? In theory, couldn\'t a skilled pirate (i.e, someone who sits and does this non-stop) copy the mini-disc games over to DVD then play a burned copy of the game on DVD in the Matu****a model of the GC. I mean, DVD-R prices are coming down and some manufactors already sell them built in at a reasonable price.
I\'m not saying it would be easy. But, it sort of defeats the purpose.
No.... I\'m sure Nintendo would have thought of something like that. There will be some sort of thing to prevent them to do that.
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No.... I\'m sure Nintendo would have thought of something like that. There will be some sort of thing to prevent them to do that.
they have...
they are either hoping that the only people intested in the NGC will be under 14 and won\'t have to buy any games themselfs.
or
they will have a Warning saying PLEASE DON\'T PIRATE !
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they have...
they are either hoping that the only people intested in the NGC will be under 14 and won\'t have to buy any games themselfs.
or
they will have a Warning saying PLEASE DON\'T PIRATE !
Geeze, that was real funny. :rolleyes: Out of nowhere, too.
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Originally posted by ooseven
they have...
they are either hoping that the only people intested in the NGC will be under 14 and won\'t have to buy any games themselfs.
or
they will have a Warning saying PLEASE DON\'T PIRATE !
OK. It has been established that you do not like Nintendo. Do you have to be a troll with every post? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Gohan
OK. It has been established that you do not like Nintendo. Do you have to be a troll with every post? :rolleyes:
I Don\'t hate Nintendo, i just wish that they treated us OLDER games to some Fun on the NGC and GBA too.
Oh and to have a slightly fast release scedule for the NGC too.
tHe one for the N64 was Dire.
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Originally posted by ooseven
I Don\'t hate Nintendo, i just wish that they treated us OLDER games to some Fun on the NGC and GBA too.
Oh and to have a slightly fast release scedule for the NGC too.
tHe one for the N64 was Dire.
I\'ll be the first to admit that Nintendo(priamarily EAD) is not going to make a MGS or a RE. That is why they are signing so many second parties that make mature games ie. Rareware, Retro, Silicon Knights, and Left Field. They have plenty of third part developers that make mature games ie. Capcom, EA, Konami, etc.
That is why there were no "mature" games on the N64. The only people who had enough money to consistently support the N64 was Nintendo and Rare. Like I said before, Nintendo(EAD) does not really know how to make a mature game. So we were left with Rare trying to convert a cutesy platformer into a "mature" platformer. Leaving Conker\'s Bad Fur Day.
That is why I don\'t understand why everyone says the GCN is kiddy. If anything Nintendo is in a really good position right now. They will always be able to make those cutesy games for the kids, the fun games for everyone and thier 2nd/3rd parties can make plenty of mature games. What is the problem with that?
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1) The Nintendo 64 had more "bloody" games that the Super Nintendo, and none of us ever complained about the lack of violent games for the SNES. Of course, I like my SNES a lot more than my N64, but still, people who argue that the Nintendo 64 has a lack of mature games should take a look at their Super Nintendo.
2) What would you enjoy playing more? A fun "kiddie" game or a lousy "mature" game. I have to say that Super Mario 64, and lots of other Nintendo liscences are loads of fun. And, even though The Legend of Zelda is rated "E" it doesn\'t seem like a kiddie game.
3) The reason the Nintendo 64 was dissapointing was not because of the (presumed) lack of mature games, but because of the lack of RPGs and Fighting games, which consequently are the most famous genres in Japan. Hopefully the Gamecube will improve upon this (which it likely will), but we can\'t be sure until E3.