PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Bossieman on April 25, 2001, 10:17:20 AM
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I want to share my thought to all the members and readers of this forum about the future of hardware.
IMO the PS2 is the only true next generation console.
I´m not talking about the power of the system, I´m talking about the idea and the future aspect of the PS2 hardware and software.
Look at the PC. Superfast computers, Intel has a
1700 MHz PIV and AMD a 1333 MHz thunderbird.
Geforce 3 is coming, a great chip that rocks hard.
For every year we see new amazing speeds of proccessors and new videocards for the PC.
But the PC industry has a vey unpleasent problem around the corner.
Its based on Physical laws. The speed of a proccessor based on the x86 architecture cant get much faster than they are already.
the distance between the transistors has a minimum range that you cant go below. To increase the number of transistors you have to make the chip bigger, a big chip needs more power, a chip that need more power generates a bigger amount of temperature. A big chip costs a hell more to produce.
Intel and other companies are well known of this problem. They need a new architecture to make the chips faster. A new technology that has not yet been discovered. When this chip arrives, we will need completely new software to control the hardware. That means that windows and other software will not work on this chip. How wants to be the first to realese a chip that is not supported by any software?
Intel is working on a 64 bits proccessor. The chip is almost finished but they cant realese it because of the software problem.
The EE in the PS2 is a chip that doesnt need software support when created. The software is created by the people that program the chip, they create it, not like Bill Gates and windows, everyone programs for windows, not the hardware.
The EE has a lot of future things in it.
Take Anti Aliasing. I think that the idea of not having AA in hardware is a genius move by Toshiba. The thing is that you have to do it for you self, you have to program the EE to make AA. Why? Because in the future we will not need AA, The chips will be so powerful that we dont need AA. Do you think AA will be in the PS3? No way.
The developers are learning how to program hardware, not software. This results in better results. You can optimize the AA for the needs.
The 4 meg of vram is another thing. Genius move again. Why store in expencive memories when you can stream?
That is future!!
After the PS2 era all developers will know how to optimize the PS2 hardware. The PS3 will be similar in artichtecture.
With the problem with the physical laws, the idea behind the PS2 is brilliant, optimize the hardware so the results shows the true power of the chip.
Imagine a future computer.
1.
128 gig of ram
a 2 THz proccessor
32 gig memory on the videocard.
Windows 2020
or.
2.
32 gig of ram
16 meg memory on the videocard (It will stream textures.)
everything will be generated in realtime.
the hardware will be optimized.
I think that the PS2 is the first and only real next generation console. What do you think?
Welcome to the future!!!
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*yawn*
Nice post. Your logic is flawed and your points are horrible but nice post nontheless.
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Yes, because of it\'s archetecture.
All the others rely on the "old" ways:)
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Well interms of the Dynamic Hardware yes,there isn\'t alot of hardware that has taken that path.Most hardware is static meaning more memory buffers to store data instead of streaming them.
And the PS.2 is an impressive peace of hardware,but it\'s not the only king of hardware\'s.The GameCube is also very nice,and although the X-Box is using older technoligy it\'s also using proven technoligy,programmers are used to working on x86 hardware.And since they won\'t have to worry about backwards combatability they can maximise their games on the X-Box.
Also keep in mind that the main CPU in the PS.2 isn\'t excactly new itself,it\'s a MIPS.3 core,not a bad one those things are used in Sgi workstations etc..
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This sucks. I voted "No Way!" before I read your post. Now I want to change it. Oh well, I guess I\'ll just delete my cache and vote again :D. J/k.
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Hell no. Being \'different\' doesnt = innovative. Consoles are a mean to an end. The games. PS2 WILL be out performed in every graphical way by GC and XB. Being \'different\' doesnt change that.
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Sorry..
Could you put a little more emphasis on how what you\'re saying in your post means that PS2 is the only real next gen console? I don\'t understand how you\'re getting to that conclusion from what you have written.
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It may be next gen designed hardware, but the bottom line is games and graphics and all next gen platforms will be sweet
so I vote no way
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NO WAY, we will have to see the end result of all three consoles, before i give 100% go on one.
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Originally posted by Bossieman
When this chip arrives, we will need completely new software to control the hardware. That means that windows and other software will not work on this chip. Who wants to be the first to release a chip that is not supported by any software?
Intel is working on a 64 bits proccessor. The chip is almost finished but they cant realese it because of the software problem.
Bossieman, when the next concept in microprocessors (let\'s call it Futuretech X, ala Civilization) is unveiled some indeterminant time in the future, why won\'t it be able to run Windows 98? If the new hardware really has heaps of MIPs to spare, all they have to do is write a Windows emulator for the new CPU, and presto. Of course they won\'t be emulating Win98, it\'ll be WinXP2 or whatever the last x86 version of Windows is. Don\'t expect the emulator to come from Microsoft though. They\'ll try to get you to buy WinFuturetech X instead.
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What an odd post. You list things that have given countless developers headaches and ensured that the PS2\'s graphics will be held down by things a pointless as FSAA and then call them good. What is the point of innovation if it is not done correctly? While the PS2 has some great ideas its execution was poor at best (as evidenced by the first generation of software). Sony took a step in a new direction but didn\'t follow through.
BTW: Devs not only write to windows because of hardware issues, the programs also need to be able to interact with one another, something that would be next to impossible if each developer where to write their programs to for the hardware only.
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Playstation2 will have the worst graphics of the 2 new consoles coming out, but graphics dont mean anything (disscussed many many times i know) . Look at the PSone, it had the worst graphics while N64 and Dreamcast blew it out of the water. PSone had WAY better games then either of thoes systmes and its going to happen with the PS2, I just know it.
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None of you know for a fact that 3 years from now the PS2 will look inferior just because it\'s older than the other 2 upcoming consoles. Everyone seems to make an assumption of what the future holds when the only fact is that none of you know didly squat. I\'m not saying the PS2 will conquer all, but the future is not yet written.. It makes logical sense that the GC and XBOX should be better, but funny things can happen. As far as the N64 being more powerful than the PSX, I disagree. Want to start a whole \'nother argument on that? I\'d be more than glad to. On paper, it\'s more powerful, not on the screen however.
I have faith in Nintendo, but they let me down with the N64, so who knows how they will do w/GC. X-box to me is not yet appealing. PS2 was also disappointing. Damn, I think the only next-gen console that astonished me was the DC. :)
- dm
- the trick is to keep breathing.
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Well I vote noway. Because ps2 did has change the video game industry. Ps2 games have not been up to par. Of course it is more powerful than dreamcast, but it just does not show in the first wave of games. Although the second wave of games look much better and are starting to show why I purchased a ps2. But after E3 we will see just what xbox and gcn have to offer. If they both fail I guess I\'ll go back to playing 16bit.(snes and genesis)
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This post is still bothering me. How do you feel that the PS2 not supporting FSAA in hardware is a good thing? The PS2 can not go up the resolutions where jaggies no longer exsist and I dont know of any consumer electronics that displays that high anyway (My monitor goes up to 1600x1200 but jaggies and the anoyying crawl is still there).
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Just having a high res doesn\'t render AA obsolete. And certainly not the way PS2 handles it - i.e. rather poorly with all kinds of weird tricks to make something that looks like AA. It can\'t do FSAA properly and never will IMO. But as developers get more experienced they\'ll figure out how to push it further, I just don\'t think it\'ll be that much further. And I certainly don\'t think of it as a good thing. Something done in hardware will always be superior to a software solution (in terms of power/performance hit).
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well...PS2 has new technology but it doesn\'t mean it\'s the only next-generation-console ! ...Why the X-Box will have a little more in Graphics effects with Old-Technology ? ohh...with more than 1 year and half of advantage even one engineer with two dogs and three monkeys could produce a bit more powerful hardware !
Look at this example...when PS2 was released,the best of the best in PC-Hardware was a P3 500 + GeForce256...
EE 66 millions polys/sec -- P3 500 5 Millions
GS 75 millions polys/sec --GeForce 15 M.
...so...tell me...what specs do you expect from PCs of 2002 ?
I\'m sure they will blow away the X-Box in performances !
PS2 is a Great Piece of hardware ! the only one which can easily destroy the PCs of the same period!
That\'s what New Revolutionary Technology means!
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Originally posted by Samwise
Just having a high res doesn\'t render AA obsolete. And certainly not the way PS2 handles it - i.e. rather poorly with all kinds of weird tricks to make something that looks like AA. It can\'t do FSAA properly and never will IMO. But as developers get more experienced they\'ll figure out how to push it further, I just don\'t think it\'ll be that much further.
Wrong! The EE was designed to program a lot of effects and potentially it can do better AA than the FSAA via hardware! just now people could think I\'m crazy or BS but it\'s not the case: FSAA via hardware takes less performance hit and it\'s easy to do...but you can create a better result via software with time and effort ! FSAA produce a slight blurry effect which reduces the ability to look out the details ! Time will prove my point!
And I certainly don\'t think of it as a good thing. Something done in hardware will always be superior to a software solution (in terms of power/performance hit).
...Agreed in terms of performance hit...but remember that software improves...hardware nope!
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Jag håller med dig Bossieman!
/FAST aka. Fredde
EDIT: I also agree with BizioEE!
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Sorry, I think some of you ate a tad too many fanboy cakes this morning. :p
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I think that people dont understand what I meant. I know that it aint easy. I did not write it down well.
The point is: In the future, I think computers and other next gen consoles (x-box2,PS3, N256. a.s.o) will have a PS2 look-a-like-architechture. The PS2 shows that the future very likely could be based on streaming technology not store-technology, that AA will be done with software, That each component in will be perfectely match to eachother, Not like putting a dinousaur (PIII 733) behind the wheels of a supercar(Geforce 3). The whole Idea of the PS2 is briliant, and that is what I mean by saying that the PS2 actually is the only next gen. console.
I think that within 5 years the x86 architecture will be history, it cant get much better now. How do you think that the next gen. computers will be? I think they will look very similar to the PS2 architecture.
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I think computers and other next gen consoles (x-box2,PS3, N256. a.s.o) will have a PS2 look-a-like-architechture
LOL! That\'s some pretty ****ed up thinking there! Whether you like it or not PS2 is a ***** to develop so don\'t expect ANYONE to copy it.
The EE may be powerful but it is no match for NGC\'s and Xbox\'s when it comes to overall performance. You see, the EE does pratically everything for the PS2( graphics, AI, Physics) but on the Xbox and NGC you won\'t have to worry about AI and physics affecting your graphics since their graphics chips take care of that. Its all about balance. :)
The PS2 shows that the future very likely could be based on streaming technology not store-technology,
*sigh*
streaming= more money, lower polygon counts, and stupider AI.
Developers would rather have more RAM instead of streaming textures. The EE is one hard working processor...
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Originally posted by Jumpman
LOL! That\'s some pretty ****ed up thinking there! Whether you like it or not PS2 is a ***** to develop so don\'t expect ANYONE to copy it.
*sigh*
streaming= more money, lower polygon counts, and stupider AI.
Developers would rather have more RAM instead of streaming textures. The EE is one hard working processor...
well, let´s wait and see what happens. ok?
(Damn I want to see into the future.) :)
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Hey Jump, do you know the PS2\'s architechture?
It has the EE, VU0, and VU1, for processing, and also then the GS for graphics. And also the streaming technique is mostly about textures, it has NOtHING to do with poly count or AI.
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I think Bossieman has cut right to the heart of the next generation issue. Anyone that won\'t admit the PS2 is enough of a significant departure from the "old way" to be considered next generation is just playing ostrich for the sake of their favorite competing champion, FMP(from my perspective).
While I understand what we end up seeing in action is the bottom line when it comes down to which console will be the best, we can\'t afford to overlook how much more powerful this generation of consoles is over the preceding generations victor, the original PS. Compare early showings from all three to the PSX and a major leap is obvious. Match samples of the latest PS2 graphics against what has been shown by the other two and the differences border on negligible.
So the crowd shouts "wait until E3, then you\'ll see!". Hey, I\'m right there saying the same thing. Only I would tack on lets have a look at 2002 and 03 as well. The PS2 certainly has the user base now to keep it going until then. Using hardware a year and half older, on paper 1/3 to ½ as powerful. Pretty impressive if you ask me.
Well, I\'m off to pick mushrooms for the afternoon. Keep up the good work Bossieman but don\'t bust your butt trying to pick bird brains out of the sand. Time will tell the tale.