Whats gonna happen to Bush today/tomorrow???

I dont remember any cars or factories producing enough smog to kill thousands of people with noxious gas, as in a volcano would do.

Think about it. the smog in LA is a resut of it sitting in a valley, it is the same thing with Salt Lake City. One large volcano eruption does much more to the atmosphere than we do in a year.

Eric Jacob

Well, I ain\'t even going to touch the majority of this subject since I am much less knowlageable about it than Lavan. However, it is true that Mt. Penetubo released more CFC\'s into the atmosphere than man has done since the invention of products that give off CFC\'s as waste. (Refridgerants, Aresols, exhaust.. ect..) I\'m not sure exactly where I heard this little factoid, I think the discovery channel.. or maybe History channel.. Anyway, I can look it up and provide a link if you want.

Also, from what I\'ve understood, UV radiation is good for life.. albiet not the current state of live. Radiation, in most or all forms, produces change and mutation. In humans, this "mutation" most often results in melenoma (skin) cancer. However, on the whole.. Increased UV radiation is (or at least has been at a time) thought to be an overall positive factor in increased eveloutionary cycles.

Sure, we\'d probably all be dead and baked by the UV rays if the Ozone was gone.. but life on the whole would actually thrive given a few hundred thousand years. (Expecially since we\'re gone..)

Also, doesn\'t the earth have natural heatting and cooling cycles? I\'m pretty positive that there\'s evidence of massive heatwaves and Ice ages all through earth\'s history. What\'s the evidence to say that "Global warming" isn\'t just a natural earth cycle.. and that by disturbing that cycle, we may end up creating more havok than good?

Mmmm.. also. I thought I\'d comment on this.

"(ie organisms eating stuff), over the next billion or so year the carbon in the atmosphere was assimilated into organic matter and oxygen was released into the atmosphere allowing for respiration and O2 + O2 = 03 (Ozone)"

Yeah, and what you forgot to mention is what an increadible enviromental disaster the creation of the Ozone caused. Life originally grew and thrived in an atmosphere of Carbon Dioxide. However, the waste products (O2, Oxygen) they gave off are powerful metebolic poisons. I\'m sure you do, but most people don\'t realize just how dangerous Oxygen is when taken in quantities more than we\'re accustomed to. Now as the Oxygen concentration in the atmosphere grew, it became inhospitable for life on earth. It caused one of the first great extinctions of this planet. However, life slowly adapted. It didn\'t allow for resperation, it allowed for resperation of Oxygen and the for the rise of life as we know it.

I guess all I\'m saying is that life.. in some form.. will survive us and all the "harm" we\'re doing. We aren\'t "harming" anything but our current enviroment. Rather than looking out for the earth, I think we should be looking out for ourselves. That should be the motivation for trying to keep some sort of stability in our eviroment, as futile an effort as it is.

I believe maybe it was Nasa, maybe a university, I can\'t remember exactly who it was, but it was said that global warming (due to mankind) cannot be proven because until about 100 years ago, we had no effective way of measuring mean air temperature. For all we know it could have been warmer 500 years ago.

And the story about Mt. Pinatubo was proven true, well over a decade ago. Global warming is essentially the invention of treehuggers trying to use scare tactics to serve their ends.

I think I won\'t mention my point of view, as I\'m already inclined to slit half of your throats... especially Al-turd\'s.


Enraged beyond belief,
EThugg

Originally posted by Weltall
I believe maybe it was Nasa, maybe a university, I can\'t remember exactly who it was, but it was said that global warming (due to mankind) cannot be proven because until about 100 years ago, we had no effective way of measuring mean air temperature. For all we know it could have been warmer 500 years ago.

And the story about Mt. Pinatubo was proven true, well over a decade ago. Global warming is essentially the invention of treehuggers trying to use scare tactics to serve their ends.

*cough* We can measure mean global temperature from thousands (more than 200,000 years ago in fact) of years ago using ice core samples. As for the Mt. Pinatubo please, any of you give me some links.

LOL Tree huggers, and scare tactics. It\'s amazing what governments and large corporations can make intelligent people belive. Next they\'ll tell you evolution is just a \'theory\' or that gravity is fake and just invented by some physics slide rule huggers.

Originally posted by SonyFan
Also, from what I\'ve understood, UV radiation is good for life.. albiet not the current state of live. Radiation, in most or all forms, produces change and mutation. In humans, this "mutation" most often results in melenoma (skin) cancer. However, on the whole.. Increased UV radiation is (or at least has been at a time) thought to be an overall positive factor in increased eveloutionary cycles.

Sure, we\'d probably all be dead and baked by the UV rays if the Ozone was gone.. but life on the whole would actually thrive given a few hundred thousand years. (Expecially since we\'re gone..)

Also, doesn\'t the earth have natural heatting and cooling cycles? I\'m pretty positive that there\'s evidence of massive heatwaves and Ice ages all through earth\'s history. What\'s the evidence to say that "Global warming" isn\'t just a natural earth cycle.. and that by disturbing that cycle, we may end up creating more havok than good?

UV radiation largely causes DNA mismatch and errors in DNA replair mechanisms - in other words cancer in all but the simplest, uni-cellular organisms. For evolution to occur the new allele must be beneficial. If it is then the mutation selection balance;

Rate of Loss (selection) = Rate of Creation (mutation)

will tilt towards creating a new species, as the mutation will result in some form of adaptation that confers benefit to holder. HOWEVER, as I\'ve said UV radiation is at the same wave-lengths as the hydrogen bonds in Adenine, Thymine, Cytosine, and Guanine - and therefor disrupts DNA pairing rather than creating new sequences as normal, slow, evolutionary mutation would. Therefore, the mutation would be deleterious, and thus selected against resulting in extinction - in other words, on the whole, you\'d have mass species extinction. Life would not thrive after we\'re gone, and frankly, after we\'re gone I couldn\'t give a damn what happened.

Yes it\'s true that there are global cycles of cooling and warming, however, ice core analysis has revealed a direct correlation between mean temperature and atmospheric carbon concentration. As for that complete BS about most of the increased carbon comming from volcanoes - just think about what I said, the entire atmosphere was carbon dioxide and it was largely taken out and incorporated into organic matter, which then died, became fossil fuels, and is now burned, re-releasing the original carbon bbck into the atmosphere.

Originally posted by SonyFan
Yeah, and what you forgot to mention is what an increadible enviromental disaster the creation of the Ozone caused. Life originally grew and thrived in an atmosphere of Carbon Dioxide. However, the waste products (O2, Oxygen) they gave off are powerful metebolic poisons. I\'m sure you do, but most people don\'t realize just how dangerous Oxygen is when taken in quantities more than we\'re accustomed to. Now as the Oxygen concentration in the atmosphere grew, it became inhospitable for life on earth. It caused one of the first great extinctions of this planet. However, life slowly adapted. It didn\'t allow for resperation, it allowed for resperation of Oxygen and the for the rise of life as we know it.

I think you got your evolutionary/atmospheric history a little confused there.

The creation of the ozone layer was not a disaster, and the ONLY mass extinction Oxygen caused was of anearobic cyanobacteria, so unless you\'re one of those you should be happy we have an ozone layer and some oxygen in our atmosphere. Not to mention the ozone layer, FINALLY, allowed life on earth as organisms did not have to remain down in the depths of the ocean to stay away from harmful UV rays.

I\'m also unsure where you got the idea that Oxygen levels increased so much that they became inhospitable for life. As I said, anerobic cyanobacteria couldn\'t stand it so they buggered off to the oceans, but oxygen allowed for cellular respiration, however it didn\'t overwhelm the atmosphere because a by-product of respiration is CO2.

[If anyone tells me our breathing puts out more CO2 than pollution, kindly check yourself into a primary school]

And one more thing, just like EThugg said he\'s enraged beyond belief. Well I\'m upset too, and I\'m also hilariously frightened.

Hilariously frightened? Yes, I find some of the things people say about global climate change and the delpetion of the ozone layer hilariously stupid, and yet here on this forum, I\'m scared to death that intelligent men can be duped into believing that global warming is just scare tactics by environmentalists. I\'m mortified that AlteredBeast thinks this way, and I\'m terrified because if governments and corporations can make guys like him think scientific proof is bull**** then what hope does the rest of the population have.

Originally posted by Weltall
warming is essentially the invention of treehuggers trying to use scare tactics to serve their ends.

As for that....what do you think \'our\', my, ends are? Do you think I\'m some kind of deep ecologist who believes humans should die? No, **** I\'m even trying to get into medical school (I\'m on the waiting list at the University of Western Ontario\'s med school) - I volunteer for the Cancer Society of Canada, and for the past three years I\'ve been volunteering in the ER of my local hospital.

I value human life over anything, but all I want is my great grandkids to be able to breathe clean air, to not have to wear ****loads of sunblock, and not have to worry about hurricanes, tornadoes and snow-storms that due to atmospheric instability due to global warming patterns. And for that I\'m willing to take the bus to school, to cut down my paper and energy consumption, to re-cycle aluminum, and hopefully convince others to do the same.

What do you think environmentalist tree-huggers are after? As for these enviornmentalist tree-huggers - I love how their years of study are negated by lame-brain politicians in one swoop. I\'ve taken numerous courses in physics, chemistry, genetics, molecular biology, atmospheric science, ecology, microbial ecology, and organic chemistry. I probably know more about atmospheric science and ecology than most people on this forum (except for ooseven), and yet, my years of study (of SCIENCE, of cold, hard facts) can just be thrown out the window because some f ucking cowboy doesn\'t want to stop drilling for oil. And the worst part of it all is that WE won\'t bear the brunt of it, our kids will bare some, but our grandkids will live in a ****-hole of a planet and won\'t have lifted a finger to do anything wrong to deserve it.

Oh, but you know me, I\'m just a tree-hugging idiot like the rest of them!

Well its almost over. (thank god for that..)

There is just one demonstration left.. (at 7:00PM(19:00), infact I think its starting now..)

One male was shot in the chest, and some others were shot in the legs.


Finally its over!

Lavan, let\'s not call believe who don\'t believe in your opinions, us, tricked people.

the funny thing is...evolution IS a theory. Or do you know what the meaning of \'theory\' is?

give me a break. If you can\'t see how an eruption, one of the explosive ash throwing kind, that covers the earth and air in smoke and ash, is worse than what what we put into the air, I can\'t help you.

Radiation does make things grow though. I read a lengthy account on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. THey said hours after bombs dropped, large extremely green plants were seen everywhere, as in the radiation made them grow. Probably where they get all these science fiction, monster-made-from-radiation stories

accept others opinions. you dont have to beieve them. but dont call us idiots or fools who have been tricked by large corporations or the govt.

EThugg, please give me your reasons for thinking many of the peoples on this boards opinions are wrong.

I guess we must all be tricked.


Eric Jacob

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Lavan, let\'s not call believe who don\'t believe in your opinions, us, tricked people.

the funny thing is...evolution IS a theory. Or do you know what the meaning of \'theory\' is?

give me a break. If you can\'t see how an eruption, one of the explosive ash throwing kind, that covers the earth and air in smoke and ash, is worse than what what we put into the air, I can\'t help you.

Radiation does make things grow though. I read a lengthy account on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. THey said hours after bombs dropped, large extremely green plants were seen everywhere, as in the radiation made them grow. Probably where they get all these science fiction, monster-made-from-radiation stories

accept others opinions. you dont have to beieve them. but dont call us idiots or fools who have been tricked by large corporations or the govt.

EThugg, please give me your reasons for thinking many of the peoples on this boards opinions are wrong.

I guess we must all be tricked.


Eric Jacob

If evolution is a theory, then so is gravity.

And if you can\'t see that more than 100 years of CONSTANTLY burning fossil fuels makes an infrequent volcano erruption look like a tiny puff of smoke next to a blazing building, then maybe you should go study some environmental science before you make opinions on things that not only affect mankind but the whole planet.

Radiation \'makes stuff grow\' - yeah, it makes stuff grow uncontrollably. What is uncontrolled growth - oh yeah, it\'s cancer. I guess we should just stop composting, and put some uranium on our lawns....maybe we can grow some Tomaco. I guess that means you\'re in favour of increased nuclear power - perhaps you believe that the resulting nuclear waste products can be used to grow some nice green plants. The folks at Chernobyl are probably greatful for some nice green plants too I guess...along with their dead children, and high cancer rates.

Anyone can have an opinion, but if it\'s not informed it\'s not worth anything. It\'s pure heresay. I never called anyone an idiot, though I\'ve indirectly been called one.

I\'m sorry I can\'t help you people, maybe you should go and really STUDY this stuff beyond reading pamphlets written by Shell Corporation, or from listening to speeches by oil corporation presidents.

I can try to write FACTS, and SCIENCE, from now until the end of time, but it\'s clear that you don\'t want to learn, you don\'t want to be educated in a field you have limited knowledge in. You have an opinion, but no scientific evidence to back it up. You mock these scientists, and yet when you have a headache you take an aspirin. You mock environmental scientists, but you\'ll heed a tornado warning issued by the same people.

You only believe what part of the truth you want to believe, and conviniently ignore or discredit the rest.

Finally, I what I have written is not an OPINION, science is not an opinion. Science is fact. If you don\'t believe that then go unplug your PS2s, switch off your cell phones, stop taking medicine, stop using synthetic products, stop driving your cars, and go into the wilderness and live like a caveman.

yes evolution is a theory. Look up the meaning of theory and you will see. relativity is a theory. do you know why they are called theories? because they cann ot be proven nor unproven. If they could, they wouldnt be theories, they would be fact or fiction.

 Basically it is something that sounds right, has other things that support it, but it CANNOT be proven.


yes, gravity has been proven to be relative to factors in a planets size and mass, etc.

I\'m done with this \'argument\'

Eric Jacob

Why are you done? Because you have no evidence to support that Global Warming is fake? Of course, no argument so just call me a tree-hugger and be off.

As for Evolution - all data collected in human history support the predicitons of darwinian evolution. In science there is NO DEBATE about whether evolution has occured. The evolution is as close to a fact as possible in science. I would go into more detail, outlining darwin\'s four postulates and the volumes of evidence supporting them, but you wouldn\'t pay attention anyway. It\'s not what you want to hear so you just ignore it.

If gravity\'s a theory, please by all means, jump off a cliff.

I\'m done too, if people honestly think that radiation causes beneficial growth (some nice green plants LOL) and that the burning of fossil fuels has no bearing on the global climate then I fear for the human race.

The green-house effect is prob. natrual..
But we ARE speeding it up.

It has happend 1 000 000 times before.. And its happening again.. But much faster cuz of us, HUMANS!

Originally posted by AlteredBeast

EThugg, please give me your reasons for thinking many of the peoples on this boards opinions are wrong.
 

Lavan and others touched on pretty much everything, although I know evolution is a theory, it\'s a tested, and observable theory. Cut yourself. When you heal, that\'s also evolution. When you die and decompose, that\'s evolution. Cancer.... evolution. With those, and the fact that fossils indicate a bigger, species wide evolutions, it\'s a pretty safe, realitivly proven theory. I\'m not saying your 100% wrong, but global warming is likely real, and there\'s nothing wrong with caring about the environment.... being a \'tree hugger\' if you want.... and to pretend that a localized volcanic eruption, which affects a localized area for a short time, is as bad as constant pollutents spewed out of of factories and cars, is just irresponsible.  Volcanic ash bad, well duh! Does that excuse us adding to it? Nope.


I hope I made sense, I kinda rant when I talk about the environment and animal rights....

King tree hugger,
EThugg