Naughty Dog\'s Jak and Daxter 10Million Poly\'s a sec?

When sony released the theoretical number of pushable polys they were talking with no ai, effects ect.

You are right jeepnrocks,
but the "Hype" machine went into overdrive,
I remember Lucas saying that we would get super "Toy Story" graphics.

well the SOny hype machine took off on its own. All SOny did was present the hardware and everyone had something to say about it. It was alot of fun waching the machine turn from a paper monster into the machine thats been in my living room for 9 months now. I learned alot about expectations and reality in the process.



but lets talk Naughty Dogs GOAL Engine (Game Oriented Assembly LISP...... Any idea what LISP stands for)

Jak and Daxter is running at 10 million polygons per second, which is considerably under what most people we\'re predicting.

According to Jason RUbin and Andy Gavin there PS2 GOAL engine actually includes time of day information and level of detail info into the those polygons which makes them quite  a bit more complex then just textured polygons.

J+D\'s world has a realtime day to night cycle. The entire world act accordingly from DUsk till dawn.  Village lights come on, sunset and sunrise hues etc....

On top of this we\'ve seen the J+D world and how large it is. Since an object in the background doesn\'t require the amount of polygons or the amount of texture detail as that same object needs when you get up close to it.

On top of this ND\'s GOAL engine is fully capable of realtime shadows and water effects both which are going to be added according to the interview.

Also the engine is capable of enviroment mapping and bump mapping. Bump mapping might not make it into the 1st J+D game because of time restraints and the fact that ND is satisified enough with the graphics engine as it is now. With the game coming out this Xmas ND is focusing on the gameplay.


All creatures and all objects in J+D follow there own physics characterisitics. As we\'ve seen in the J+D previews animals/creatures windmills, vehicles are all present, and all are supposed to behave  uniquely (sp?). On top of that grass and trees sway in the breeze, windmills react  accordingly etc...

AI in J+D is supposed to be pretty complex. According to Jason Rubin, walking around a level avoiding enemies can lead to having most of the enmies on that level following you relentlessly.

The animation system is already being boasted  as one of the best in a videogame ever so add that to the capabilities of ND\'s engine and testament of what good dev\'s can do with the PS2\'s hardware

Then there\'s the whole scope of the game in general. A huge living world with 0 load times.

I just hope more devs create games with similiar ambitions as ND appears to be doing with J+D. The game may not be the best in graphics but the scope of the game and everything it acheives is top notch all the way

Originally posted by AjT004

...I don\'t know where you read that, but that is a bunch of crap...

Your right, the internet is littered with it! Two guesses as to where I belive that info originated?

Forgive me all, if I have led you astray with my flagrant misuse of speculative figures. I hereby resign my post as the omnipotent PS2 authority.

Originally posted by ddaryl
well the SOny hype machine took off on its own. All SOny did was present the hardware and everyone had something to say about it. It was alot of fun waching the machine turn from a paper monster into the machine thats been in my living room for 9 months now. I learned alot about expectations and reality in the process.



but lets talk Naughty Dogs GOAL Engine (Game Oriented Assembly LISP...... Any idea what LISP stands for)

Jak and Daxter is running at 10 million polygons per second, which is considerably under what most people we\'re predicting.

According to Jason RUbin and Andy Gavin there PS2 GOAL engine actually includes time of day information and level of detail info into the those polygons which makes them quite  a bit more complex then just textured polygons.

J+D\'s world has a realtime day to night cycle. The entire world act accordingly from DUsk till dawn.  Village lights come on, sunset and sunrise hues etc....

On top of this we\'ve seen the J+D world and how large it is. Since an object in the background doesn\'t require the amount of polygons or the amount of texture detail as that same object needs when you get up close to it.

On top of this ND\'s GOAL engine is fully capable of realtime shadows and water effects both which are going to be added according to the interview.

Also the engine is capable of enviroment mapping and bump mapping. Bump mapping might not make it into the 1st J+D game because of time restraints and the fact that ND is satisified enough with the graphics engine as it is now. With the game coming out this Xmas ND is focusing on the gameplay.


All creatures and all objects in J+D follow there own physics characterisitics. As we\'ve seen in the J+D previews animals/creatures windmills, vehicles are all present, and all are supposed to behave  uniquely (sp?). On top of that grass and trees sway in the breeze, windmills react  accordingly etc...

AI in J+D is supposed to be pretty complex. According to Jason Rubin, walking around a level avoiding enemies can lead to having most of the enmies on that level following you relentlessly.

The animation system is already being boasted  as one of the best in a videogame ever so add that to the capabilities of ND\'s engine and testament of what good dev\'s can do with the PS2\'s hardware

Then there\'s the whole scope of the game in general. A huge living world with 0 load times.

I just hope more devs create games with similiar ambitions as ND appears to be doing with J+D. The game may not be the best in graphics but the scope of the game and everything it acheives is top notch all the way

Damn. That\'s a lot of info.

Where did you get it from, I\'d be very interested in a link.

Just out of curiosity. I\'ve heard it said many times that J & D is running at 19 million polys, but I\'m yet to see any links to where people got this \'information\' from. The first time I read it was on some dubious post here that was a repost off the IGN forums.

I\'ve never heard anything more concrete than that so I dismissed it as speculation, but the fact that you provide so much more detailed info makes me wonder.

So a link would be appreciated, from anyone if possible.

Originally posted by kangu-G^Ltt^s


Damn. That\'s a lot of info.

Where did you get it from, I\'d be very interested in a link.

Just out of curiosity. I\'ve heard it said many times that J & D is running at 19 million polys, but I\'m yet to see any links to where people got this \'information\' from. The first time I read it was on some dubious post here that was a repost off the IGN forums.

I\'ve never heard anything more concrete than that so I dismissed it as speculation, but the fact that you provide so much more detailed info makes me wonder.

So a link would be appreciated, from anyone if possible.

The latest copy of Next Gen magazine tells all. Its a preview / interview. Jak and Daxter is on the cover

Like I said in my first rant you quoted, Jak and Daxter isrunning @ 10 million polygons per second, but the polygons are loaded with information. According to ND if they we\'re just using textured polygons they could get alot more on screen, but that wouldn\'t make the game better looking.

but ND\'s goal engine does alot of different stuff. I\'m really looking forward to seeing more in depth gameplay vidoes to really get a feel for the game.

I think i read the 10 Million polygons a second article in Next-Gen magazine.

This is what i know about LISP, correct me if i\'m wrong, i have seen some source code, but i\'m not a fan of the language.  Was developed 40 years ago or so, by MIT. Something to do with Artificial Inteligence. LISP means the following: List Processing  LIS + P = LISP.

Thanks ddaryl! I might have to pick up that issue of Next Gen.

What really got me interested is the fact that you mentioned bump and environment mapping capabilities being included inthe engine. The PS2 is really suprissing a lot of people with the depth of its architecture and its software effects. Just recently we were able to see, clearrly demonstrated in ICO that the PS2 was capable of realtime shadow casting on the characters by themselves ( which resident forum techie Dr Yassam had satated he believed would be impossible to see on the PS2 in an actual game environment).

Now the revelation of an actual bump mapping engine on the PS2 makes you wonder if the fact that all effects have to be implemented through software really affects the preformance of the machine in a very significant manner.

Toxical,

thanks for the info. It sounds right, but who knows for sure without asking the man himself


kangu-G^Ltt^s

Jason Rubin  abd Andy Gavin says the engine is fully capable of enviroment and bump mapping. They made it sound like any form of mapping could be done, but I\'m not positive on that or to waht extent especially since they haven\'t actually added bump maps to J+D.

But we do know the majority of the PS2\'s "Effect" will come from softwware, and will require PS2 coded specific engines.

Again it will be great to see who and how many devs actually start to figure out the parallel processors

I know I don\'t post much but I wanted to butt in on this post.

The Ps2 is an enigma, I don\'t even think Sony knows exactly wut the Ps2 is capable of.  Now I\'m not saying the Ps2 has the capability of beating the newer systems, but its not down 4 the count.  ND has done wut Sony was hoping all developers would do.  ND has to an extent further more than other developers learned the curve of the Ps2.  With all of the VU\'s, EE, and GS, U can\'t help to wonder wut the Ps2 is capable of.  I\'m not buying into the hype of the pretty names but of wut each one is capable of doing individually dviding the workload, and making the Ps2 a strong competitor.    

People have been *****ing of how U have to think differently with the Ps2, and ND has done that, atleast in my own opinion.  The Ps2 is capable of a lot, and to be perfectly honest, I truely believe the Ps2 Hardware will never be mastered.  And I see Sony continuing this trend, as Sony is really making me think that they will be desinging hardware in abstract ways like the Ps2.

Originally posted by ddaryl
Toxical,

Jason Rubin  abd Andy Gavin says the engine is fully capable of enviroment and bump mapping. They made it sound like any form of mapping could be done, but I\'m not positive on that or to waht extent especially since they haven\'t actually added bump maps to J+D.

But we do know the majority of the PS2\'s "Effect" will come from softwware, and will require PS2 coded specific engines.

Again it will be great to see who and how many devs actually start to figure out the parallel processors

Wow, I never know that ddaryl...I knew that MGS2 have to implemented the shadow through software but didn\'t know that most of other Effect were coming from software.  Mainly because of ps2 multiple processor and limited VRAM makes other Effects hard to achieve.  Like FSAA and mit and bump mapping.  I believe XBOX is easier to do these dued to single processor and unified RAM.  Just my opinion.  Hopefully Developers will get the hanged of PS2.

[Bobs_Hardware]

10 million???  god damn.  i read in an interview with him that it was 19 million and the \'goal\' was 21 million.  I guess someone has been telling porkies.  Someon from Sony??  never!  

Originally posted by Toxical
I read that Naughty Dog\'s Jak and Daxter displayes up to 10 Million polygons a second, wow, if true.  

It got me thinking though, if they took 2 years to make the game in its current form, what does that say about the PS2 Hyped about 66 Million polygons?  I guess at most the PS2 will do about 12 - 15 Million polygons, now that is ok, but it makes me wonder about SONY and the "hype"

ugh...Sony never said the PS2 would push 66 million polygons.  The PS2\'s maximum pushing power is 66 million untextured polygons.  Thats with no effects, fogging, etc.  That has ALWAYS been their claim.  The Graphics Synthesizer is capable of filling in 75 million of these raw polygons.  The maximum number of textured polygons with lighting, textures etc. has ALWAYS been maintained to be around 24 million polygons/sec.

oh, and the percentages floating around about MGS2 using about 50% of the PS2\'s power etc. isnt just plucked from mid air.  It is is pretty much a guesstimation, but it is approximately in the area.  More or Less.  I say they (Konami, Hideo Kojima etc.) would base the percentages off how many processors they are using.  The Ps2\'s most powerful processor is the VU0.  MGS2 is only using one of the main processors, and uses the vector units for very minor things...well, thats based on information i read some time ago.

Originally posted by kangu-G^Ltt^s
Just recently we were able to see, clearrly demonstrated in ICO that the PS2 was capable of realtime shadow casting on the characters by themselves ( which resident forum techie Dr Yassam had satated he believed would be impossible to see on the PS2 in an actual game environment).

Unfortunately, I rarely get the time to participate in these forums anymore

but ...

I\'m intrigued with this info Kangu! Can you give further details? Thanks.

(BTW, I don\'t recall saying it was impossible \'full stop\', just the level seen in XBox games like Malice and Kakuto-X).

[BizioEE]

Originally posted by ddaryl


...
but lets talk Naughty Dogs GOAL Engine (Game Oriented Assembly LISP...... Any idea what LISP stands for)

Jak and Daxter is running at 10 million polygons per second, which is considerably under what most people we\'re predicting.

According to Jason RUbin and Andy Gavin there PS2 GOAL engine actually includes time of day information and level of detail info into the those polygons which makes them quite  a bit more complex then just textured polygons.

J+D\'s world has a realtime day to night cycle. The entire world act accordingly from DUsk till dawn.  Village lights come on, sunset and sunrise hues etc....

On top of this we\'ve seen the J+D world and how large it is. Since an object in the background doesn\'t require the amount of polygons or the amount of texture detail as that same object needs when you get up close to it.

On top of this ND\'s GOAL engine is fully capable of realtime shadows and water effects both which are going to be added according to the interview.

Also the engine is capable of enviroment mapping and bump mapping. Bump mapping might not make it into the 1st J+D game because of time restraints and the fact that ND is satisified enough with the graphics engine as it is now. With the game coming out this Xmas ND is focusing on the gameplay......

It\'s so interesting ddaryl  !!!       ...is it possible to have any link ?   Thanks

Originally posted by ddaryl
but lets talk Naughty Dogs GOAL Engine (Game Oriented Assembly LISP...... Any idea what LISP stands for)

lisp (lsp)
n.
A speech defect or mannerism characterized by mispronunciation of the sounds (s) and (z) as (th) and (th).
A sound of or like a lisp: “The carpenter [\'s]... plane whistles its wild ascending lisp” (Walt Whitman).

v. lisped, lisp·ing, lisps
v. intr.
To speak with a lisp.
To speak imperfectly, as a child does.

v. tr.
To pronounce with a lisp.
Don\'t mention it ddaryl
Jeep