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Author Topic: We are animals just like every one else on this planet!  (Read 30983 times)

Offline Black Samurai
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« Reply #300 on: July 12, 2001, 06:04:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Kane (sp?) killed Abel and God cursed Kane with dark skin and cast him out of the group.

That must be a mormon thing because I have NEVER heard anything like that. Are you saying that dark skin is a curse? Thats what it seems like.
[SIZE=\"4\"][COLOR=\"Red\"]I\'m sorry, That\'s not a hair question.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

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« Reply #301 on: July 12, 2001, 06:16:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gohan

That must be a mormon thing because I have NEVER heard anything like that. Are you saying that dark skin is a curse? Thats what it seems like.


I never heard it before either, but it could be true.

God punnished Cain, and Cain complained that because of his sin anyone who would find him would kill him , so God said:

" \' Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer seven times over.\'  Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him." - Genesis 4:15

Offline Bossieman
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« Reply #302 on: July 12, 2001, 09:22:07 AM »
its propably no subject in matters rellated to the existence of God where there is more conffusion than what has popularly been called the big bang. Much of the problem has come from not understanding what the theory propposes. Historically, the first suggestion that would propose the idea came in 1916 from Albert Einstein\'s field equation of general relativity predicting an expanding universe. In 1916, the accepted philosophical position was that the cosmos had always existed, and Einstein\'s proposal clearly dictated that there was a beginning, so his theory was altered to conform to the accepted position. That position also contradicted the Bible which delighted atheists. In 1925, Abbe Georges Le Maitre, an astrophysicist and Jesuit priest promoted a hot big bang creation event. In the late 1930s, Edwin Hubble gathered spectra data that supported the fact that the cosmos was expanding. Since that time, more and more data has been gathered to add to the hot big bang event concept. In later years, Arno Penziar and Robert Wilson measured temperatures that fitted the picture and were awarded a Nobel Prize. Most recently evidence has shown that the cosmos is not only expanding, but in fact is accelerating in its expansion.

 All of this is in strong support of the Bible\'s assertion that there was a beginning. In cosmology, the view is that the big bang involved the creation of time and the creation of space (space/time) which again agrees with the notion that the creation was not just a rearrangement of energy/mass but a process that had a cause. The biblical concept of what God is fits this cause very well.

 What is especially interesting in this discussion is that the literal meaning of words in the Hebrew and Greek strongly support the expanding universe concept. It is this relationship of the big bang and the Bible that we would like to explore in this article.

God\'s Predating the Universe

The first point that needs to be made about this subject is that the Bible clearly points to God existing before the universe existed. This is not just the obvious point of Genesis 1:1, but is also stated in Proverbs 8:22-31, Colossians 1, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2, and 1 Peter 1:20. The biblical concept of God is that He is a being outside of time and space and is the cause of the existence we have. Acts 17:28 clearly states it as ".in Him we live and move and have our being." It is also important to note the name of God chosen in Genesis 1 is Elohim. There are many names used in Hebrew for God, each indicative of the properties of God being discussed. Jaweh is used when one is talking about the promises of God. Adonai is used when the ruling aspect of God is the subject. When the power and creative nature of God are involved, the word is Elohim, and that is used exclusively in Genesis 1. In modern English, we might refer to our mate as our wife or husband, our old woman or old man, our lover, our battle ax. All of those convey different conceptions of the person we are married to.

The Creative Process

The word used in Genesis 1:1 to describe the creation is the Hebrew word bara. This word is never used in reference to something a human can do. Seven times in the Old Testament, it is used in reference to the creation (Genesis 1:1; 2:3-4; Psalm 148:5; Isaiah 40:26; 42:5; and 45:15). Hebrews 11:3 states that the cosmos we can see is made out of things which we cannot see. Numerous passages indicate that God is the sole source of the cosmos, further supporting God as the creator. (see Isaiah 45:5-22; John 1:3; and Colossians 1:15-17).

The Expansion of the Cosmos

The word shamayim is used in the Bible to refer to the astronomical universe. The word itself is connected with the phrase stretched out eleven times in the Old Testament (Job 9:8; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; Zachariah 12:1). The concept here is that the cosmos is not static but the verb natah is used in an active participle form indicating that the process is ongoing.

 You do not have to be a Hebrew scholar to understand the concept (I certainly would make no claim of personal credibility at all). Just take a concordance and look up the words and see what the common usage is. In Young\'s Analytical Concordance, for example, shamayim is referred to as heaved up things because of its connection to the stretching or expanding concept.

 It is important to understand that the concept of the big bang and the expansion of the cosmos makes no statement of it being something that is a product of blind chance. If a person takes that position, it is a religious assumption. The evidence that design is mandatory for a life-bearing planet to exist from the hot big bang model has been discussed many times in this journal.

The fact that the universe had a beginning that involved the creation of space/time and that the expansion of the cosmos is ongoing is supported both by the scientific evidence and by biblical claims. The Bible continues to hold an amazing record of accuracy and knowledge far beyond its day. We argue that the big bang is just one more of a massive number of examples that show it is the word of God.

 Much of the material for this article is from an article by Dr. John Rea, specialist in Old Testament languages and archaeology, and Dr. Hugh Ross in Facts for Faith, Quarter 3, 2000, pages 26-32.


I found this article pretty interesting, I havent read the bible, but this article just gives me a feeling that religious people make the bible fit perfectly with every new scientific theory.

Offline fastson
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« Reply #303 on: July 12, 2001, 09:26:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bossieman


I found this article pretty interesting, I havent read the bible, but this article just gives me a feeling that religious people make the bible fit perfectly with every new scientific theory.


That might be true.. I also think so sometimes.
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« Reply #304 on: July 12, 2001, 09:34:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bossieman

I found this article pretty interesting, I havent read the bible, but this article just gives me a feeling that religious people make the bible fit perfectly with every new scientific theory.


We don\'t have to make it fit, it does fit.  The problem is that the Bible was written so that the people of the time in which it was written would understand.  That leaves some ambiguity when making translations into the modern word, but the Bible is quite specific.  While non-professional horroscopes tend to be more broad so that many actions can fit into it\'d desciptions, the Bible limits it\'s scope, preventing most ambiguous relations.

Offline EmperorRob
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« Reply #305 on: July 12, 2001, 09:35:07 AM »
Troglodyte is referring to the Tower of Babel, Genesis 11.

Quote
Bossieman said:
I dont find God as a good answer to why we are here or how universe began.
How do you decide what religon is true. Do you just follow your hearth and make that your choise. Have never doubt that your God is the right?
If you do not doubt what you believe, you will never question its integrity.  I started reading the Bible a long time ago and I never stopped.  The principles that Jesus teaches are truth and I\'ve found this after years of doing it the wrong way.  I\'m in no way perfect, but now I understand what I should be.

It seems you\'re wanting physical proof God exists.  You want to see the blueprints of the universe.  You never will, and no one will.  No one will ever find the proof that humanity searches for of the existence of God.  God does not want people who believe just because they see him.  He wants people who love him b/c he loves us.

As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother\'s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.
--Ecclesiastes 11:10
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Offline Bossieman
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« Reply #306 on: July 12, 2001, 09:41:58 AM »
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can\'t be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

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« Reply #307 on: July 12, 2001, 09:46:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bossieman
We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can\'t be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?


I\'ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don\'t know how Satan came to be.  He was an angel, given free will, and decided to changes his ways and try to take God\'s place.  God could have easily done a multitude of things to Satan to make him stop.  But for reasons beyond my understanding, he chose to send Satan away from Heaven.

Have you every seen Que (sp?) on Star Trek, the Next Generation?  He is an immortal being that manipulates things to satisfy his curiosity.  Maybe God allowed sin to take place just to see what it would do.  Maybe he allowed it to prove to Satan that his way is better than the plans that Satan had.  \'Cause in the end sin will be abolished.

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« Reply #308 on: July 12, 2001, 09:55:07 AM »
I´m going to read this article now, I´ll be back.

http://humanists.net/rpfa/god.html

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« Reply #309 on: July 12, 2001, 10:32:13 AM »
I wouldn\'t necessarily say that the cain thing is just from my church, as I don\'t really know the Mormon perspective on it. It could be just a thing that has been translated by some of the members of my ward. I am not saying that dark skin is a curse, either. I am just saying that it seems like God gave Cain a mark that intended to punish him and set himself off from the group. Which happened, since he lived away from Adam and Eve\'s family.

Also, the King James version of the bible, the oldest English translated version, and used by most Christian churches on the planet, does not contain many references to God as having different names in those verses you stated. Maybe not at all. Which version was that out of and why would it be different than the King James version? From what I have heard, the only reason we have the NIV and Comic Book Bible\'s are because they are made simpler for people to read. Wouldn\'t adding new names for God and the Creation make it more difficult?


The thing that some people aren\'t getting is that the Bible wasn\'t written entirely with God\'s influence and under His revelation. The writer\'s of the Bible had opinions and downfalls just like we do today. They may have added or taken out things that they saw fit, relating to the ancient time they were written.

EmperorRob brings up a good point in his last post. If we KNEW that we had a creator, there would be no test in us believing, we would know. And while the verse he puts forth isn\'t in the KJV of the Bible, I still agree with it 100%.

the theodice problem set forth isn\'t well thought out at all.

We were all alive and intelligent up in our pre-existence. In that time, there were two plans set forth for man to be saved and return to live to live with God. The first one to present a plan was Jesus Christ. He would die for our sins and have all the glory given unto the Father. Satan got up and said he would give no free-agency to the people. The glory would also go to Satan for saving us. If we would not have free-agency, we would have to follow.

   God chose the first plan and there was a war. 2/3rds sided with Christ and Heavenly Father on his plan. 1/3 with Satan. the 1/3rd being jealous, greedy, and lazy, were cast out into Outer Darkness. In other words, away from our Heavenly Father. Never would they be able to gain a body, never would they be able to return to live with Him.


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Offline Evi

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« Reply #310 on: July 12, 2001, 10:37:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Adam and Eve had tons of kids. Adam lived for some 900-odd years and had many children throughout his life.

Yes, they had to have interbred for quite sometime.

Kane (sp?) killed Abel and God cursed Kane with dark skin and cast him out of the group.

Eric Jacob
I know that\'s a Mormon belief because they believe that black people are evil. Yeah...uh-huh...God\'s going to curse you with dark skin. It doesn\'t say that anywhere in the bible.

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« Reply #311 on: July 12, 2001, 10:37:42 AM »
The King James version may not be the best version of the Bible.  After extended research of the ancient languages, scholars found that there are many names used to refer to God.  Many of the translations in the King James version are now thought to me mislead, because of mistranslations (i.e. some words don\'t have a literal English translation, the King James just took what translation they thought best at the time).  Mind you I don\'t think that any version is perfect.  That is why I have a copy of NIV, King James, and the Living translations in order to compare/contrast verses when I study.  Each translation is equally flawed.

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« Reply #312 on: July 12, 2001, 10:44:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Adam and Eve had tons of kids. Adam lived for some 900-odd years and had many children throughout his life.

Yes, they had to have interbred for quite sometime.

Kane (sp?) killed Abel and God cursed Kane with dark skin and cast him out of the group.

Eric Jacob
I know that\'s a Mormon belief because they believe that black people are evil. Yeah...uh-huh...God\'s going to curse you with dark skin. It doesn\'t say that anywhere in the bible.

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« Reply #313 on: July 12, 2001, 10:48:30 AM »
we have around 4 black families in MY ward alone. They make up around 1/6 of the ward. The men who are old enough out of those hold the priesthood and have the others have all been baptised after age 8.

Do not tell me that we believe black\'s are evil. I just take \'giving a mark to Cain\' as setting him different, or of darker skin. That is NOT a church translation, like I said, moreover, just the way I take it.

man, I already said that!


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« Reply #314 on: July 12, 2001, 10:52:38 AM »
Also, I didn\'t say God cursed black people, I said God cursed Cane with dark skin.

As we do not work on original sin in my church, it is not the descendants of Cain\'s fault that he killed Abel, everyone starts off fresh, not born with sin.


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A funny gesture.

 

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