Casual gamers do know games(I kind of took this from reading Weltalls post)

Originally posted by Ryu


If the Army Men games and the 989 games sold so damn terribly, then why are they made for nearly every damn system?  Obviously, there is a market for them and they are successful enough for the many spin-offs and sequels they have had to have even more sequels and more spin-offs.  A company does not continue a franchise if it completely dies and doesn\'t sell anything at all.

Tekken was never in the top 20 for PSX games sold, yet that game has had what, 5 versions?  Ace Combat is never in the top 30, but they are going on 5 versions as well.  Street Fighter is also a victim of this rarely ever making it into the top 50 in games sold, but those suckers have had what?  20 different versions?  Army Men has had what, 3 sequels for each version of army men across nearly every platform?  What does all this information show?  That there is a considerable audience for each of these games and even though they will never make it into the top 50 charts, the games will always be made for those who buy them.  I don\'t need a chart to back that up either.



The bouncer did come out in 2001.  

There are more Army Games in the making and this demonstrates my point exactly.  Why continue to make sequels if the games don\'t sell?  The answer that you seem to be ignoring: they do sell well, period.  Maybe not to the limited 100 people you talk to, but they do to the 100,000 (or maybe even 50,000) people who buy them.  I guess your circle of 100 people is just far too limited in their gaming preferences.



Your arguements above are mostly null.  The videogame industry, the movie industry, and the shoe (wtf?) industry are all totally different things.  Fact of the matter is, so long as the companies are in business, they are obviously selling their product to some people and that is abou the only similarity between all those companies and industries listed above.

3DO makes the worst games, flopped a console launch, and pumps out Army Men after Army Men game and still have enough money to stay in business.  There has to be profits in there SOMEWHERE to stay afloat, especially in this unstable market.

RYU i already spoke on the army men thing so I won\'t back paddle on that. But how can you compare a game like army men to sf. I mean the fact that you two are wasting time about games like army men. I mean there are tons and tons of crappy games on psx that had sequals. And from the looks of 989 and army men games they don\'t put a lot of money into the games. So I assume selling 20,000 copies would suffice them.


And altered I don\'t buy into hype. I buy into games. I have never spent my money on a game I saw on tv. I don\'t work my ass off and pay my bills to waste my money on crappy games. I will not even buy a game unless it is a known AAA killer or I have researched the game enough and rented to know if it sucks. So I would appreciate if you would not characterize me like you have done.

All I was doing is trying to speak for tons and tons of gamers I come accross all the time. Who seem to know more about gaming than ppl in forums believe they know.

And ryu the gym shoe thing only applied to the bussiness practice of the company that related to what was spoken.

Like why would this shoe company keep making shoes if they know all there shoes suck. Or why would ben and jerry make a black jelly been icecream when they know nobody likes that flavor.   Icecream and gym shoes may not be the same thing but the way I mentioned them in the sentence they have simular point of vews.


I mean both you and ryu make good points. And I felt I make good points too. I agree with a lot of what you too are saying, but I don\'t agree on the way you characterize gamers. And the debate went all south and went to name calling when the characterizing of gamers is always I was trying to discuss and come to some type of understanding.

Oh yeah and altered I was speaking on square in japan not usa I never said anything about square as far as usa. If I agree with what you said but I just worded if differently. I mean square is god in japan so who would not expect a game with shiny graphics from square to sell big. And he same goes for square in the US. That\'s sad but true.

that last post up you WERE still talkng about Army Men games, but now that Ryu has disputed your fact (as I did before his, just not as NICELY) you change your argument. This is getting tiresome. All I know is, I came out the winner of this argument and you learned how to put spaces in your thoughts! Yay for everyone!


uggghhh. I give up.


Eric Jacob

*sigh*

RYU i already spoke on the army men thing so I won\'t back paddle on that. But how can you compare a game like army men to sf. I mean the fact that you two are wasting time about games like army men. I mean there are tons and tons of crappy games on psx that had sequals. And from the looks of 989 and army men games they don\'t put a lot of money into the games. So I assume selling 20,000 copies would suffice them.

No one was comparing Army Men to Street Fighter.  I was showing that sales figures on a top 50 list mean absolutely nothing.  3DO does not need to make a game that is widely excepted by hardcore gamers to sell well.  As long as they have their Army Men commercials and casual gamers buying them, they will make money.  I don\'t get why this is so hard for you to understand.

Or why would ben and jerry make a black jelly been icecream when they know nobody likes that flavor. Icecream and gym shoes may not be the same thing but the way I mentioned them in the sentence they have simular point of vews.

There is obviously an audience for them.  You may not see it, but it\'s there and that\'s why those flavors\\brands are produced.  It\'s impossible to make the generalization that "nobody like these things" from the 100 people you talk to or no.  There are 6 billion people on this Earth and to say not one of them, or even 100,000,000 of them don\'t like black jelly bean ice cream is an incredibly idiotic fallacy.  There is no way for you to know how the general public acts at all towards what you and your 100 contacts like or dislike.  That\'s about as accurate as an internet poll conducted about a Sony practice on a Nintendo site.

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
that last post up you WERE still talkng about Army Men games, but now that Ryu has disputed your fact (as I did before his, just not as NICELY) you change your argument. This is getting tiresome. All I know is, I came out the winner of this argument and you learned how to put spaces in your thoughts! Yay for everyone!


uggghhh. I give up.


Eric Jacob

Well  looking at it from a different point of view. I say we all brought up interesting things. I agree with some and others I find are not true. I mean this a debate forum and at the end there is no need to call eachother names or fight about it.

And I don\'t see how you won:laughing:  And I agree with some of what ryu said. I don\'t see nothing wrong with that. But I still believe what I said about gamers.  I mean it is kind of in the middle. And you have to have open mind when it comes to gaming and especially debating about it. And I believe that is what I done. I agreed with a lot of what you said before too altered. But I guess you where so mad aboUT what I said about saturn you over looked it.

And as for changing my mind. I just thought about what ryu said and he had some good points. Whats the big deal altered. I mean if you are so closed minded that you can\'t listen and learn from what ppl say then that\'s sad.(this is just a general statement)

And altered I type 60wpm and some times I speed through my post and make mistakes. Is that ok with you?

And I accept your apology for calling me a product of mass market. When as dedicated to gaming as I am. And all the time and money and effort I have put into gaming i found that statement very offending. Because I have never in my life bought into hype. And when it comes to my gaming I am very serious about it and put in lots of effort to find what is the best content I can buy.

anyone with the IQ of over 100 could look at this argument and would say "huh?"

First, they would laugh as you put forth arguments that make no sense ("Bouncer and NBA Shootout are not on any PS2 lists for 2000" duh! released in 2001)

Then they would cry as you try hard to keep cramming a new perspective down our collective throat covering your @$$ as you make all kinds of errors both in spelling, grammar, and fact/ point wise.

I don\'t get mad at people who think Saturn sucked, I laugh at them, like I am laughing at you for your past 6 or 7 posts. And if you didn\'t notice, Ryu said your points were, let\'s see, how did he say it...oh "an incredibly idiotic fallacy" In simpler terms, DUMB.

BTW, if you type 60 wpm (BS) and make all kinds of grammatical and spelling mistakes, then it is pointless, any typing teacher or employerer will tell you that. BTW, I think there is an automatic spell checker you can use on here, it may help you, I haven\'t used it so I can\'t say for sure, but give it a try.

You keep changing the subject and we may have another 16 page thread here. It worked for Bossieman and gang.


edit I never apologized, and if I did, it was meant in jest, sorry if you thought otherwise.

Eric Jacob

Originally posted by Ryu
*sigh*



No one was comparing Army Men to Street Fighter.  I was showing that sales figures on a top 50 list mean absolutely nothing.  3DO does not need to make a game that is widely excepted by hardcore gamers to sell well.  As long as they have their Army Men commercials and casual gamers buying them, they will make money.  I don\'t get why this is so hard for you to understand.



There is obviously an audience for them.  You may not see it, but it\'s there and that\'s why those flavors\\brands are produced.  It\'s impossible to make the generalization that "nobody like these things" from the 100 people you talk to or no.  There are 6 billion people on this Earth and to say not one of them, or even 100,000,000 of them don\'t like black jelly bean ice cream is an incredibly idiotic fallacy.  There is no way for you to know how the general public acts at all towards what you and your 100 contacts like or dislike.  That\'s about as accurate as an internet poll conducted about a Sony practice on a Nintendo site.

OMG that ben and jerry thing was just a metaphor. Thats all and nothing else. I just used the b&j thing.  I was trying to get a point accross. Well I guess you just missed that whole thing. And the army men thing is just stupid. And that is nothing to argue about because your not understadig where I am coming from. And it\'s just getting bad because what I am actually saying is totally different that how your recieving it.   And well I do a lot of work down at michigan state,WMU,EMU because some time I work with my brother in law when I have free time. And I speak to tons and tons of college kids from those schools. And I am not trying to chacracterize them as the entire gaming world. Just as you cannot characterize the entire gaming world bye what you have been saying ryu.

Well I listen and agree with some of what you and altered said. Even though everything I said was taken out of content. And even though none of us can speak for the entire gaming marke we tried to. I took points from what both of you said and I think I learned from them. I just hate that my words where twisted and this debate went off about army men which is not even worth either of are times. It is kinda of funny us arguing over a crappy game like army men.

Well I listen and agree with some of what you and altered said. Even though everything I said was taken out of content. And even though none of us can speak for the entire gaming marke we tried to. I took points from what both of you said and I think I learned from them. I just hate that my words where twisted and this debate went off about army men which is not even worth either of are times. It is kinda of  funny us arguing over a crappy game like army men.

Altered and I both took your words to mean the exact same things and you obviously did not object until this post.  Strange how we suddenly don\'t understand 30 replies into the arguement, but we understood it 29 posts in even though the same exact things are being repeated, only reworded.

As for the ice cream thing, I know it was an analogy, an incredibly faltered one, just like your analogy about foot wear and videogames sharing traits.  I knew it was an analogy, I meremly built on it and explained how that anaolgy was both wrong and yet supported my view moreso then your own.  That\'s not my fault, I didn\'t bring up different industries to support my arguement, but I\'ll be damned if I won\'t take advantage of them if someone else brings them up.

And the Army Men games, the point was, which is something you obviously missed, was that sh|tty games, even Army Men games, can still sell well to a mass community who trusts commercials and hype moreso then anything else.  What do I call those people?  Casual Gamers.  I never lost my objectivity of the arguement, but you simply forgot the topic.  My points still stand that crappy games can still sell well to those who are misinformed and trust flashy commercials over hard fact.  It doesn\'t take a rocket scientist to see that things that sell well or are accepted through a certain market will be remade in many different ways to gain even MORE financial support.  it\'s simple business practices.  I\'m sorry you don\'t understand that.

Originally posted by AlteredBeast
anyone with the IQ of over 100 could look at this argument and would say "huh?"

First, they would laugh as you put forth arguments that make no sense ("Bouncer and NBA Shootout are not on any PS2 lists for 2000" duh! released in 2001)

Then they would cry as you try hard to keep cramming a new perspective down our collective throat covering your @$$ as you make all kinds of errors both in spelling, grammar, and fact/ point wise.

I don\'t get mad at people who think Saturn sucked, I laugh at them, like I am laughing at you for your past 6 or 7 posts. And if you didn\'t notice, Ryu said your points were, let\'s see, how did he say it...oh "an incredibly idiotic fallacy" In simpler terms, DUMB.

BTW, if you type 60 wpm (BS) and make all kinds of grammatical and spelling mistakes, then it is pointless, any typing teacher or employerer will tell you that. BTW, I think there is an automatic spell checker you can use on here, it may help you, I haven\'t used it so I can\'t say for sure, but give it a try.

You keep changing the subject and we may have another 16 page thread here. It worked for Bossieman and gang.


edit I never apologized, and if I did, it was meant in jest, sorry if you thought otherwise.

Eric Jacob

Well it is kind of sad you see things that way. And feel that your own views point towards heavenly goodness. You have no right to be little anyone for you are no smarter and don\'t  know anymore than anyone else. You can\'t prove anything you said. You don\'t know any of the numbers for none of those games so all your doing is going on what you believe.

And i NEVEr BROUGT up army men. I spok of 989 sports game gameday which came out in 2000. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BOUNCER AND ARMY MEN COMING OUT IN 2000. SO I DON\'T KNOW WHY you keep bringing that up. And it is a shame someone cannot even debate without resorting to name calling which really questions how mature you are. I mean to even post something like that is just rude and so disrepectful. There is a level of respect and maturety that should be maintained. And for someone too do what you do have done. Just proves that you have either. I guess I am very pissed off because I never resorted to calling you names niether did I TWIST YOU Words or put words in your mouth. I tried to agree and only bring up things I disputed. But you wanted to keep bring that damn army men thing up. I could careless about 3d0. But I would never just come out and be so disrespected. Well I guess you have shown me that you are very disrespected and could give a rats ass about anyones opinions or thoughts.

AND ryu I may have missed point. HEll I am not perfect. I don\'t everything.  I have been playing games ever since I was 5 and I AM 21 now. And I have owned 15 systems.  And I am always learing something new in gaming. That is one purpose of the forum. Too enlighten misconceptions we have and learn things about gaming we may not now.  Nobody in gaming is perfect but for altered to ****y, rude and disrespected like that is just  plain awful.

[Living-In-Clip]

One thing. If casual gamers know a good game when there is one out. Why is it one of the best PSone games and the BEST fighting game on the Psone didn\'t sell well? I\'m talkin\' about Tobal No 1, a game regarded highly by critics and the so called \'hardcore\'. Yet, it didn\'t sell much, \'cept to the \'hardcore\' and due to that we never saw Tobal No 2 on US shelves.

Why? Was it maybe because 1) The graphics was not that impressive. It ran at 60fps, but due to that the characters was extremely blocky and simple or 2) because it wasn\'t a  well known franchise?
 Either way, it is because the \'casual\' gamer didn\'t care about it.

Case Closed.


Right there in Black and White (a cliche but true)

If you know games, truly good games, you\'re hardcore

If commercials mean jack Sh!t to you, all you care about is the game itself, you\'re hardcore.

If you\'ve played the NES and SNES FF\'s that didn\'t come to the US, thou art hardcore.  ( I had to throw that in ).


I believe there are two reasons why sequels are made:
1. ) Sells Well.
2. ) Great Reviews.


Tobal No. 1....sold well in Japan, good reviews. Sequel Tobal 2.
HOWEVER, did Tobal No. 1 sell well in America..not really, good reviews OF COURSE. But..No American Sequel.

[Living-In-Clip]

Originally posted by GenjuroKibagani
Case Closed.


Right there in Black and White (a cliche but true)

If you know games, truly good games, you\'re hardcore

If commercials mean jack Sh!t to you, all you care about is the game itself, you\'re hardcore.

If you\'ve played the NES and SNES FF\'s that didn\'t come to the US, thou art hardcore.  ( I had to throw that in ).


I believe there are two reasons why sequels are made:
1. ) Sells Well.
2. ) Great Reviews.


Tobal No. 1....sold well in Japan, good reviews. Sequel Tobal 2.
HOWEVER, did Tobal No. 1 sell well in America..not really, good reviews OF COURSE. But..No American Sequel.

Yes, Tobal No 1 sold well in Japan. But it did not sell well in other countries, therefor the sequel did not leave Japan. For a simple reason, it lacked the stuff (graphics, franchise) to sell well to the casual gamer.

Which proves my point. Casual gamers don\'t know what they want for the most part. Some do. But most buy franchises and stuff based off commercials or the game that has the best graphics and catches their eyes.

Originally posted by QuDDus


Just check the sales figures of the top ps2 games of 2000. I can assure you the bouncer,gameday, and nba shootout are nowhere to be seen.

do you see YOUR name in there? In the quote right above THESE words?

Originally posted by QuDDus


And i NEVEr BROUGT up army men. I spok of 989 sports game gameday which came out in 2000. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BOUNCER AND ARMY MEN COMING OUT IN 2000. SO I DON\'T KNOW WHY you keep bringing that up. And it is a shame someone cannot even debate without resorting to name calling which really questions how mature you are.

oh, you NEVER brought up Bouncer or anything like that? Are you sure? I only make fun of you because I can, I really don\'t make fun of that many people when I argue with them, it is just that you are such a horrible arguer, it is fun to throw them in there. You keep lying and saying you were never talking about things, then I GO BACK and quote your stupid crap and, hmmmmm, looks liek you were LYING.


Didn\'t I say I give up? you are hopeless.


Eric Jacob

Originally posted by AlteredBeast


do you see YOUR name in there? In the quote right above THESE words?



oh, you NEVER brought up Bouncer or anything like that? Are you sure? I only make fun of you because I can, I really don\'t make fun of that many people when I argue with them, it is just that you are such a horrible arguer, it is fun to throw them in there. You keep lying and saying you were never talking about things, then I GO BACK and quote your stupid crap and, hmmmmm, looks liek you were LYING.


Didn\'t I say I give up? you are hopeless.

Eric Jacob

Well you know what you are such a immature kid. You keep bringing this crap up when I have already tried to quash this mess. I mean why? What enjoyment do you get out trying to keep this mess going on. I mean you skip through my whole post which I was trying to squash all this name calling and nonsense. Just so you can find something to throw your rude and uncalled for comment in. That is damn sad.
You should put more time into trying to be mature and stop acting like a immature baby. I just have nothing for ppl who have no respect.  And If I said nba shoot out in my post well excuse me. I did not even bring that up in the first place. Why don\'t you quote my links to the top selling games in january 2001 when shootout came out. Why because all you wanna do is keep this crap going on.  And I first started speaking of gameday and you started throwing in other games. You do know gameday was out in 2000 and that is why I brought it up. I am done  finished and tired of this because you are just to immature. You have know respect.  And person that has no respect is just a little boy who needs to grow up.

Shootout came out in February, idiot.

Eric Jacob


PS: do I make you mad?