PS2 : for worse times...

It\'s impossible arguing with ignorant people because they\'ll wear you down and bring you to their level.

Right, and remind us why you are here again? To start your anti-ps2 campaign?

Tell me why Black & White runs worse on my system than any new and current FPS games? Yes, you can move the camera, but it\'s still the same when in a static view.

Why Blair Witch Project, which used pre-rendered backgrounds, ran choppy on my older system (which surpassed the recommended specs) ... Same goes for Nocturne, and I can be here all night naming PC games. (that aren\'t FPSs and use static cameras)

In my experience, FPSs run better than any other type of game. (on the PC) - Sooo.

/ dm /

If you look at some of the movies of BG : DA then you will relise that the camera is being controlled. There is one particular sceen where it looks like the dwarven character is fighting skeletons and the camera zooms in and moves around  abit to get a better look because hes been surrounded.

Yes a controlable camera will have a slight impact on the processor. But it does look like the camera in one build of BG : DA has a controlable camera.

But I\'m getting sick of this anyway, the games are looking better and better, the gameplay looks like its going to be cool.

Oh and by the way I finnally got to play DMC this morning and god damn it rocks.

Black and White doesn\'t have a fixed camera, so you answered your own question.  The entities are huge and the world is emmense.

I don\'t know the other games you are refering to, but performance could be from sloppy coding, unoptimized engine, bugs or any number of other software related problems.

Another little bit of proof (if you will):  Why, when listing benchmarks for a system or graphics card do they list performance scores for FPSs (read Quake3)?  Because it taxes a system the most and uses almost all of its resources is why.

You are a jackass.  I\'m not here to spread anti-PS2 propaganda.  Now, with you out of arguments, you start questioning my motives.  Give it a rest.  So many people here are arguing with me that have no knowledge of what I\'m arguing, but they are brought to arms just becasue of the fact that I\'m speaking against the PS2--gasp!!  I own a PS2, but that fact alone does not mean that I have to live in blissful ignorance and love every aspect of the PS2.  I have stated that I enjoyed SSX very much, ICO looks wonderful, BG I am excited about, J&D I have actually changed my mind about recently during a discussion on this forum.  I\'m not a troll, I\'m just here to try to get people to admit that all is not perfect in the land of Sony.  Once that happens things have to get better.  If no one ever said anything against Sony or the PS2 then what motivation would they have to improve?

Like I\'ve said I\'m not nearly as set against the PS2 as it might seem reading this post (or BG for that matter--it looks like a great game), but there are problems surrounding the PS2 and I\'m not going to pretend that they don\'t exist.

Originally posted by Watchdog
You guys are ridiculous.  Isometric games do not have the system requirements that FPS do.  That should be your first clue.

Just adding to what datamage said.  Isometric games have never been done on the scale that it is being done right now.  Everything is in 3d, unlike most other games of this nature that are done in complete 2d.

Secondly, a FPS is a quicker game, things move more quickly and therefore have to be drawn more quickly.

I really hate to tell you this, but nomatter what the speed of the game is, it is drawn at the framerate of the game.  For example, 60 FPS games display 60 frames every second. *gasp*  I know, it\'s an amazing concept.  Nomatter how fast the game moves, or how fast the characters move in the game, it will only display the graphics every 1/60 of a second.

And again obviously have a controllable camera impacts performance.  It\'s one more thing for the CPU to keep track of--if you believe nothing else.

I just got confirmation from Kevin Osburn at Black Isle Studios that you are able to rotate the camera but not zoom in or out.  Link.  The computer still has the ability to do the zooming though.  

Keeping track of where the camera is takes practically zero processing power anyways -- whether or not the camera is controllable or not.  That data is stored in a structure that can be accessed any time.  Everything is rendered from that camera point (again, whether or not the camera is movable).  So it looks like that argument is worthless now.

Also, just the fact that everything is so small on screen makes a difference.

What, did those pics of the Ice Giant I posted not show up for you or something?

These are only the things that are readily aparent.

Well keep searching, because what you posted means jack squat.

It\'s impossible arguing with ignorant people because they\'ll wear you down and bring you to their level.

All respect I had for you just flew right out the window.  I thought you were an intellegent person, but you had to result to that.

Another little bit of proof (if you will):  Why, when listing benchmarks for a system or graphics card do they list performance scores for FPSs (read Quake3)?  Because it taxes a system the most and uses almost all of its resources is why.

No, I won\'t actually.  All you are doing is assuming that\'s the reason.  I have a better, more logical reason for you though.  Maybe it\'s because up until about a year ago when B&W came out, almost all 3d games on the PC were FPSs.  Yes, the FPS genre was chosen to represent graphics cards\' power because they taxed the system the most compared to other genres.  Look at its competition though.  The only other games on PCs were 2D (2D doesn\'t tax the system), and a handful of non-FPS 3D games.  FPS games are the obvious choice to represent a graphics card\'s power on the PC.  Doesn\'t that make a little more sense?

Here is a quote from the Dark Alliance page:

Q: What are you doing with the Playstation 2 hardware? Are you doing things that can’t be done on other consoles or on the PC?
A: The envioronmental effects working in BG: Dark Alliance would bring your friend\'s fastest PC to a crawl. It could be years until the PC can do all of the things that you\'ll see in BG: Dark Alliance.

What?  That doesn\'t make any sense.  If FPS games can run on a PC then why can\'t BG: DA? [/sarcasm off]



Everything else you said was just arguing (instead of debating), and it wasn\'t directed at me (for the most part), so I\'ll just ignore it.

Welp I guess the only thing left for me to do is


1st its become obvious that Jumpman deserves the

award

and watchman or watchdog, what the hell are you talking about.

This thread supports the idea which was mentioned in the links from older threads: WE\'RE INFORMATION WHORES!!

It\'s ok though. Because we just can\'t help it!

Damn the internet!! :cool:

Long live video games!!

By the way. IMO there\'s nothing wrong with information so long as you love videogames at heart!! Also it\'s important to remember a point that was brought up in the older threads and that is that most of us are a lot older now which changes things. Gone are the days of the innocent kid waiting to rip open his video game gifts on christmas! Heck. I think you\'d be pressed to find any of us back in our childhoods worrying about textures, bump-mapping, frame-rate etc... All we knew was that we were about to have some serious fun minus the nit-picking that we are all guilty of now. But times change! But my love for gaming will not which is why I don\'t mind the nit-picking so much.

Yes I agree with Bossieman..

This thread, is infact gay   :fro:

Watchdog: Why didnt you answer my question?
Its even more obvious now!

Ill quote myself!

Why are you being so pessimistic? Its not good for you, you know..
I\'ve noticed one more thing.. You only come here to criticise PS2.. You never post in other threads..(threads that has some good news about PS2)

EDIT: I took out somethings.. Dont want to sink to their level

There\'s no need for name calling.  Watchdog is entitled to his oppinon as much as you are entitled to yours.  Enough with the personal attacks.  Lets get back to the debate.

You are a jackass.

Go f\'ck yourself. Here you are criticizing us and how \'low\' we get, when you\'re the first one to throw an insult. Last post I take from you seriously. Have a nice day.


/ dm /

Firstly, I only insult when I in turn get insulted.  When has anyone taken any post that speaks against the PS2 seriously?  And no you didn\'t insult me directly (dm), but you post is inflammatory and hostile so I responded in kind.  Besides when someone insults me (unprovoked) you don\'t jump on him and defend these high ideals--hypocrite.

Secondly, you guys know nothing about what goes into a 3d engine and yet you still are arguing and calling me names.  Does this make sense?

And of course they are going to say "This game isn\'t possible anywhere else--your PCs would cry".  Give me a break.  Do you expect them to say, while promoting their product "We;re not breaking any boundries here, this stuff is pretty textbook stuff and can be done on the GBA given the proper timeframe.  Actually it\'s a lot like Diablo II with more spells--we stole a lot from Blizzard."  Some common sense please.

Like it or not most of you are fanboys.  You have not even considered any of my points.  If you look at my initial posts in this thread they were not inflammatory, they were posts in the spirit of the topic.  Whenever I post my ideas that are a little against the PS2 I get jumped on by multiple people.

Calling someone ignorant is not necessarily an insult, and definately not in the context that I used it.  Calling most of you here ignorant only means that you have non knowledge about any given topic.  In this case you do not know what it takes to get a 3d engine to work and the process therein, and therefore it is impossible to DEBATE this issue with you.

And, I answered you question already in a post (do you even read them?).  I have responded in threads that praise the PS2, and have said positive things about the PS2 (recently in the ICO, this damn thread and J&D posts) so you can put your conspiracy theories to rest.

Secondly, it DOES matter how quickly things are moving.  No I can\'t find a specific document that states this, but it would be worthless to post here anyway because you people don\'t beleive anything that doesn\'t praise the PS2.

Lastly, having a controllable comera has a huge impact (zooming and scaling etc) on performance, not just a little.  You guys are using PS2 biased common sense to arrive at your conclusions. I actually know--read carefully I actually KNOW--for a fact, but this, not surprisingly, fell on deaf ears.



The PS2 is a wonderful system really.  The textures are always bright and colourful.  Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly.  Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave.  I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental.  I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have  1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends.  I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin.  I wonder what it will cost?  Does anyone know?  Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though).  I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen.  It looks AWESOME.  Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three).  I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right?  Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)?  Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome.  I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant.  The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all.  Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised.  Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes.  I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools.  Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh).  Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking).  Does anyone agree?  We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.

Originally posted by Watchdog
And of course they are going to say "This game isn\'t possible anywhere else--your PCs would cry".  Give me a break.  Do you expect them to say, while promoting their product "We;re not breaking any boundries here, this stuff is pretty textbook stuff and can be done on the GBA given the proper timeframe.  Actually it\'s a lot like Diablo II with more spells--we stole a lot from Blizzard."  Some common sense please.

Here\'s some common sense for you.  If the PS2 is so hard to program for (you said it yourself), then why the heck would they choose to program for the PS2 instead of programming on the familiar PC?  Hmmm...  Maybe it\'s because what they said was true -- and this is coming from a non first party programming company.

Like it or not most of you are fanboys.  You have not even considered any of my points.  If you look at my initial posts in this thread they were not inflammatory, they were posts in the spirit of the topic.  Whenever I post my ideas that are a little against the PS2 I get jumped on by multiple people.

The only reason we jump on you is because you are wrong.  You claim you know everything about the PS2 and its inferiority, yet you show no proof of that.  Like I said before, I am not a fanboy.  I can\'t wait to play the Xbox and NGC.  I am only defending the PS2 because it has a lot more power than you are giving it credit for.

Calling someone ignorant is not necessarily an insult, and definately not in the context that I used it.  Calling most of you here ignorant only means that you have non knowledge about any given topic.  In this case you do not know what it takes to get a 3d engine to work and the process therein, and therefore it is impossible to DEBATE this issue with you.

So instead of explaining to us "what it takes to get a 3d engine to work," you just call us fanboys and expect us to leave you alone.  You have not said anything to prove your credibility and your knowledge of 3D graphics.

Secondly, it DOES matter how quickly things are moving.  No I can\'t find a specific document that states this, but it would be worthless to post here anyway because you people don\'t beleive anything that doesn\'t praise the PS2.

No it doesn\'t.  Lets say we have a ball rolling across the screen.  It could roll across 1 point per cycle, or it could roll across 100 points per cycle.  Either way, if the framerate is 30 fps, it would only draw the ball every 1/30 of a second.  The only extra amount of processing that is needed to move the ball 100 points instead of 1 point is adding 100 to the ball\'s current position instead of just adding 1 to the current position.  Adding does not take a significant amount of processing power.  \'nuff said.

Lastly, having a controllable comera has a huge impact (zooming and scaling etc) on performance, not just a little.  You guys are using PS2 biased common sense to arrive at your conclusions. I actually know--read carefully I actually KNOW--for a fact, but this, not surprisingly, fell on deaf ears.

All characters, objects, and environments are scaled in BG: DA.  I already gave you an example of this, yet you continue to ignore it.  Go look at the Ice Giant.  He is smaller when he\'s farther away from the camera, and bigger when up close.  Even if the cameras were not controllable in BG: DA, everything still has to be scaled so they don\'t look wierd (i.e, too big or too small) on the screen.

The only thing that having a controllable camera does is adds a couple more checks per cycle.  The game has to check and see if the Rotate_Camera_Left or Rotate_Camera_Right button is pressed.  Then it moves the camera accordingly.  Then it goes back to the normal draw screen function.  Adding two more checks per cycle does not add significant processing to the game.

The PS2 is a wonderful system really.  The textures are always bright and colourful.  Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly.  Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave.  I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental.  I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have  1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends.  I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin.  I wonder what it will cost?  Does anyone know?  Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though).  I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen.  It looks AWESOME.  Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three).  I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right?  Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)?  Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome.  I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant.  The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all.  Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised.  Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes.  I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools.  Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh).  Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking).  Does anyone agree?  We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.

Your sarcasm is so amusing. :rolleyes:  I have not said that the PS2 looks better than the Xbox.  I have not said that the PS2 is the king of all systems right now.  I have only said that the PS2 is going to improve a whole lot in its lifetime, and that it is going to be comparable to the Xbox before its life is over.  This is pure speculation on my part, but from what I\'ve seen, and what I know about the PS2, I believe it to be true.  And I will continue to defend the PS2 as long as there are people out there like you who don\'t know what they are talking about.

They don\'t program for the PC because the user base is much higher on a console.  A successful game on the PC sells 1 million games. A successful game like FF sells multimillion copies worldwide not just US (as the PC is mainly a US based platform--Japan could care less about it.)

I have explained about how a 3D engine worked and noticed no one made any comments on it.  You chose to ignore what you  can\'t argue with or can\'t understand.

_______________________
No it doesn\'t. Lets say we have a ball rolling across the screen. It could roll across 1 point per cycle, or it could roll across 100 points per cycle. Either way, if the framerate is 30 fps, it would only draw the ball every 1/30 of a second. The only extra amount of processing that is needed to move the ball 100 points instead of 1 point is adding 100 to the ball\'s current position instead of just adding 1 to the current position. Adding does not take a significant amount of processing power. \'nuff said.
_________________________

LOL, you know NOTHING about what you are talking about.  That\'s all I\'m going to say.

Characters being scaled isn\'t the problem.  The first shot you showed could have been a cutscene or something.  Or it is a scripted event.  Regardless, that scene is anticipated by the engine--notice there is only two characters on screen (I\'m pretty sure, but there weren\'t many).  I\'m not saying that the PS2 couldn\'t scale, but it would take a lot of cpu power.  Regardless, that scaling isn\'t controlled by the player and I\'ve tried to tell you that countless times.


__________
The only thing that having a controllable camera does is adds a couple more checks per cycle. The game has to check and see if the Rotate_Camera_Left or Rotate_Camera_Right button is pressed. Then it moves the camera accordingly. Then it goes back to the normal draw screen function. Adding two more checks per cycle does not add significant processing to the game.
__________

LOL, again why do you even try to make this stuff up.  Applying this kind of inane logic simply proves that you don\'t know what you are talking about.

WHY THE HELL ARE YOU MAKING THIS CRAP UP???

Yeah it was sarcasm, but it\'s not far removed from the majority of the posts around here.  Actually it\'s pretty damn near what most of the posts are about.

I\'ll reply to all the other weak arguments directed at me later. But first it\'s time to have some fun with the most biased *** in PSX2Central history.

Originally posted by ddaryl
Welp I guess the only thing left for me to do is


1st its become obvious that Jumpman deserves the

(immature image)

award

That\'s all you do ddaryl, use that ***cking laughing smiley for all your arguments. It just goes to show you can\'t prove me wrong which has become painfully obvious over the course of my stay here I might add. Does anyone want to see the pm ddaryl sent me? I can\'t reply to any more J&D threads because I point out the flaws in that "all mighty" game because people like him can\'t handle seeing Sony getting rightfully slammed.

And ddaryl, do you consider yourself to be some godly unbiased gamer? You have such vast ignorance to call me a "tool" when the fact remains your more biased than I am/ever will be and you know it.

Close this thread, delete this post, pm with more idle threats, do what ever you want , but you still know it. Now reply with something constructive or cowar away like always.  

The PS2 is a wonderful system really. The textures are always bright and colourful. Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly. Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave. I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental. I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have 1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends. I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin. I wonder what it will cost? Does anyone know? Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though). I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen. It looks AWESOME. Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three). I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right? Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)? Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome. I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant. The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all. Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised. Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes. I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools. Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh). Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking). Does anyone agree? We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.

You must have a lot of free time on your hand.

Ok since Ddaryl didnt say much to you Jumpman, I will add on to it, stop being a queer, there thats all I need to say