To RYU

It seems funny to me that you have a message board with a thread intitled console debate yet you chose to close a thread that had that very thing going on. Yes I posted Spec\'s . Then I backed it up with Facts and explained each one.  I am sick and tired of you PS2 name calling little pussies, who run and hide when someone proves to you that your console of choice is no longer the best machine on the market. Not only does the XBOX win with Specs, it wins on every level. The PS2 is a great system as I said before, But now we have the XBOX and it IS a better machine. Oh yes your PS2 has a nice big library of games after being out for over a year. We shall see a year from now who is riding on top. I\'m sure you will delete this post and ban me from your pathetic little message board, but I could care less. I came here to prove a point and I did. You people can\'t have a debate because when presented with the facts, you have to resort to your grade school mentality of name-calling. You call me ignorant. Youfre the ignorant one who can\'t face the truth.

And yes I do have many years of gaming experience with several different systems ,and I still say there is none that compares to the XBOX, that is my opinion and that is what message boards are all about. So may I suggest you learn how to run one, and not tuck tail and run away when someone has a difference of opinion.

As far a posting more then one post in a row, I will not put them all in one post because I was quoting a person and responding directly to them. I will respond to each post on an individual basis.

One more thing, as far as brain farts go, is that what you call it when someone is challanged and they back up their stament with cold hard facts?  Well if that is the way this message board works, then I shall take a page from your book and sign off by saying Your the ignorant fool, wake up and deal with the truth moron.

[Bobs_Hardware]

HAHAHAHAH!!

for you for making me laugh... you actually think you had \'proven\' anything? hahaha

Keep blowing steam little man. I agree the the thread shouldn\'t be closed, but thats about all I agree with.

Specs SMECKS, will all know the specs dude, we don\'t need em posted every other week or month just because some kid is a zealot, fanboy, or misinformed. And who made you the all mighty one that knows all? I\'m just curious, what makes you the expert? Maybe cause you copy and pasted some specs that mean nothing. :rolleyes:

Dude be happy play your games and stop trying to convince us what system is better. You won\'t get far trying to convince anyone with specs.

Proven yer point you have, eh? Lookie here, that\'s actually not a valid "point" ("X-Box is best, yippikaiay!"), rather a personal point of view.

I can see that XBox is immensely powerful and will be rolling to our TV screens some of the most impressive games we\'ve seen (at least technically), but it\'s far from being the "best" console.

There\'s a private messaging system, use it.

I am sick and tired of you PS2 name calling little pussies, who run and hide when someone proves to you that your console of choice is no longer the best machine on the market.

The PS2 is the best game machine on the market, hands down.  Who cares what your spec sheets say when a console\'s greatness is measured by how many great games it has?  Why do you think so many of us "PS2 lovers" also own Dreamcasts, arguably one of the best gaming machines around and yet the most under-powered console for this generation?

I\'m sure you will delete this post and ban me from your pathetic little message board, but I could care less.

Not at all.  I love personal criticism.  To me, this is the most life this part of the boards has seen in a long time.  I will rename this thread though so anyone and everyone can get in on it so it doesn\'t seem or sound like a personal attack despite the fact that it is.

I came here to prove a point and I did.

What point was that again?  That you can cut and paste a few specs froma  few Internet resources and say that each one is directly comparable despite not knowing how either of them utilized their different strengths to make good games?  Please, your "point" as you would call it has more holes then the OJ trial.

You people can\'t have a debate because when presented with the facts, you have to resort to your grade school mentality of name-calling.

If posting rehashed crap that this board has been debating over for a year and a half is considered a debate to you, then there truly is no hope for you at all.  We like fresh new topics and this crap has been gone over so many times that it\'s sickening.  Not to mention that there are millions of tech article out there that lay your "comparison" to waste much more formidably then I ever could.  You go by raw numbers, we go by how those raw numbers are applied to real world programs.  If you don\'t like that, then I don\'t know how you can even compare anything.

Oh, and don\'t say that crappy thread was a "debate," afterall, "there is no debate" ... remember?  Your words, not mine.

And yes I do have many years of gaming experience with several different systems ,and I still say there is none that compares to the XBOX, that is my opinion and that is what message boards are all about. So may I suggest you learn how to run one, and not tuck tail and run away when someone has a difference of opinion.

Tuck tail?  Run?  You are comparing spec sheets copied and pasted from web sites.  What is there to run from?  Of all the debates, this is the worst one of them all.  You think the x-box is the best console, that\'s fine, I have no problem with that.  Saying it is because of specs and because you want to peddle your opinion off as fact is what irks me, especially for a debate as tired, old, and boring as this one.  

As far a posting more then one post in a row, I will not put them all in one post because I was quoting a person and responding directly to them. I will respond to each post on an individual basis.

Speaking purely from a moeration stand point, no, you will not do this.  I will go in and combine every one of your posts if I have to, but you will obey the rules.  Use bold tags to get people\'s attention.  Trust me, they will read what you say even though it is hard to understand blatant ignorance.

One more thing, as far as brain farts go, is that what you call it when someone is challanged and they back up their stament with cold hard facts?

No one is arguing the content and the source of your arguments.  Indeed they are raw numbers and they are "hard" facts, but the way they are applied to real world programs and situations is where it counts.  FFX looks great, MGS2 looks great, GTA3 isn\'t too damn bad, GT3 is pretty damn awesome too and the list goes on and on.  Lots of sites who write about this stuff for a living, as I do, would whole heartedly agree with every word I have been saying, even lame IGN.xbox staffers.  The fact of the matter is, both consoles have great looking games, what good are high clock speeds when inferior hardware is pulling off games that are only marginally decreased from this "superior hardware" you speak of in visual quality?

Well if that is the way this message board works, then I shall take a page from your book and sign off by saying Your the ignorant fool, wake up and deal with the truth moron.

Heh, I love it when people leave thinking they are the "better person" before facing the other person\'s say in the subject.

Your points have been read and understood. I still say i backed up my spec post with more detailed info but who gives a crap really. I prefer the xbox you prefer the PS2. So be it.I also am new to this board as you know so i didn\'t realize that this has been done to death. My last point on the issue is when i see a game on the PS2 that looks as good or better then Brute Force i will take notice. I have a demo Cd with Brute Force on it and if the actuall game looks that good, all i can say is WOW!!!!

By the way I too have a dreamcast and i still enjoy playing code veronica and some other games on it. I bought the dreamcast for $50.00 new just before the X-box came out. actually I had no interest in the PS2 or the XBox until my daughter said she wanted a Gamecube for her birthday. I encouraged her to look at the games that were out for each system before she made her final choice. She decided on the PS2, but we will get the cube when  the resident evil series comes out. I decided to buy an XBox when I tryed one out at the mall, I was blow away by it, so i got one. Before that i was perfectly happy with my dreamcast and PC games. there all good, which is the best is a matter of opinion.  So are we agreed?  The XBOX is the best, right?

Originally posted by NPYYZ
the XBOX and it IS a better machine.

LMAO

yeah its newer so it MUST be BETTER :rolleyes:









hey  NPYYZ  enjoy your new Troll picture i think you have earned it !

[nO-One]

Sorry I\'m taking this from the other thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a few of his statements.

Ah the questionable Processor...
the X-box pent lll 733 MHZ processor
The PS2 features a 294.912 MHZ central CPU
Even the Game cube has a 405 MHZ power PC which is slightly more powerfull then the PS2

Xbox cpu = Pentium 3 with a lowered L2 cache, 32 bit CISC design.
GameCube cpu = redesigned G3 processor, 128 bit RISC design.
PS.2 cpu = MIPS 3 design with MIPS 4 design elements, 128 bit RISC design. Operates with VU1 for added FPU performance.

Lets talk Dolby Digital 5.1 for a bit.
The X-box has dolby digital 5.1 sound in gameplay. The PS2 proudly trumpets the fact that it supports Dolby Digital 5.1 sound, but what it doesn\'t say is that it only supports it during DVD movies and FMV sequences.

EA has already implemented in game dolby 5,1 by using one of the vector units.

Lets talk memory.
I bought my X-box, $299.00, and one game, $50.00 ,and brought it home and was able to play and save my game so I would not have to start it all over again. I bought my PS2, $299.00 ,and one Game$50.00 and brought it home and I realized I had to go spend another $34.00 for a memory card. then soon that memory card was full and I need another and another, but my XBOX has 50,000 blocks of memory right on the hard drive, which will never be full I think I can safely say.

The built in hard drive is nice, but let\'s not forget the Sony hdd that\'ll soon be arriving.

lets talk DVD, you will like a part of this one.
Yes with my X-box i had to run back to the store and spend $24.00 for the DVD kit so i could watch movies. With my PS2 I could watch them right away with no added cost. Although i had to spend a few bucks to access the DVD feature, I have to say it looks much better to be able to operate the DVD feature with a remote when company is over, you know instead of having to use a gamepad with a cable no less.
Oh yeah and the X-box is the only console with progressive DVD scan which means the X-box actually improves the output of the DVD medium by using the extra resolution afforded by HDTV sets.

True the Xbox\'s DVD performance is supposedly better than the ps.2\'s. I\'ve heard about updated dvd sorftaware for the ps.2 but I don\'t really care, real men use stand alone quality players. And don\'t forget the Sony remote.

Max Resolution.......
On an HDTV the X-box max resolution of 1920x1080 is a glimpse of what is possible. X-box features like bump mapping add full scene anti-aliasing look truely incredible at those resolutions.
One key problem with the PS2 architecture is memory issues.Becuase of this it is extremely difficult for game developers to use high resolution textures in their PS2 games. Even if the PS2 could match the x-box\'s highest\'s resolutions, (which it can\'t) the texture would still look dark and grainy.

Most people out there don\'t have HDTV\'s, and AA isn\'t really necessary at high resolutions, FSAA is accomplished by rendering the image at a very high res and displaying it at a lower res. FSAA is best used at normal Tv resolutions. And the PS.2 wasn\'t designed to buffer the textures, it\'s supposed to stream them. A thing that\'s more easily said than done. However I have heard something about a new Sony development kit that let\'s developers program for the PS.2 in C. If that\'s true we sould be seeing some better looking games soon.

Boy I really would like to be able to listen to some of my CD\'s while playing a game. Oh wait with the X-box CD copier I can. Sorry PS2 fans.

It\'s a nice option, but the console needs to not only load the file from the hard drive in the memory, it also has to decode the .wma file (I suspect that the cd\'s are ripped into .wma\'s since it\'s a MS standard). It can hamper performance....and what\'s to keep people from putting cd\'s into their cd player\'s while playing?

Hey 3 of my friends are coming over and we all want to have a game of Madden 2002, oh that\'s right we will use the X-box insted of the PS2. The X-box allows 4 controllers to be connected at once without any adaptors.

4 controller ports are nice, but keep in mind that a lot of gamers are lonely SOB\'s . Ohh and the PS.2 has 2 USB ports, what\'s to keep manufactorers from making usb controllers?

Want more????? OK

Polygon Throughput::::::

I know there just numbers but the X-box can push 125 million polygon per second, Almost twice as many as the PS2.

I know you will most likely say that polygons aren\'t important, hell I would to if the x-box was so out powered by it\'s competitors, but it\'s not. Look at the environments, the characters, and the objects in the game. The more polygons a console can push, the better things look.

Well true, poly\'s are quite important. However there isn\'t one single piece of evidence that shows that the 125 million figure represents in game conditions. Sony and MS are similar companies, they think alike, both of them showed off theoratical peek performance. I\'m afraid that Nintendo was the only honest company here, they factored in textures, effects, ai etc...

Pixel Shaders::::
For those of you who may not know a Pixel shader is a graphics function that calculates visual effects on a surface one pixel at a time. This means that the graphics processor must render, light, shade, and color millions of pixels for each frame, at 60 frames per second. For most graphics processors this is too much of a load, but not for the X-box. The importance of pixel shaders is that they help the game developers turn the typical, flat surfaces in video games into textured, organic, and realistically bumpy-looking surfaces. Oh you know how I mentioned how Pixel shaders are too complex for most graphic processors? Well the PS2 and Gamecube are part of that group.

Agree\'d pixel shader\'s rule, and it really shows nVidia\'s enginering skills (although ATi\'s pixel shaders are more powerful and robust), but let\'s keep in mind that the PS.2 was designed to let the developers create effects in software mode rather than limiting themselves to hardware supported features.

I\'m not saying I\'m some anti Xbox guy, infact I strongly support it along with the GC and the DC (rip). Just don\'t mis information to be running amok in our fora

but I don\'t really care, real men use stand alone quality players.  

lol!!  :rolleyes:

"The PS2 is the best game machine on the market, hands down. Who cares what your spec sheets say when a console\'s greatness is measured by how many great games it has? Why do you think so many of us "PS2 lovers" also own Dreamcasts, arguably one of the best gaming machines around and yet the most under-powered console for this generation?" - Ryu

IMO, Dreamcast would still be the best gaming system on the market if Sega were still supporting it. The PS2 is only just now catching up to it, and Xbox has quite a lot of library building before it can claim that status. If 3rd parties hadn\'t ran, and if Sega hadn\'t pulled the plug.. the DC\'s library would be untouchable.

"So be it.I also am new to this board as you know so i didn\'t realize that this has been done to death." - NPYZZ

It\'s called common sence and "Testing the waters". A little courtesy when expressing your opinion to other you KNOW have different opinions can go a long way into turning you more into a respecable poster, and less of an ignorant fanboy.

"My last point on the issue is when i see a game on the PS2 that looks as good or better then Brute Force i will take notice." - NPYYZ

If graphics are all your concerned with, pop FF:TSW into a PS2 and enjoy. I guantee nothing on Xbox can touch it. :rolleyes:

"By the way I too have a dreamcast and i still enjoy playing code veronica and some other games on it. I bought the dreamcast for $50.00 new just before the X-box came out." - NPYYZ

Wow, you\'re really played that lil puppy to death huh? :rolleyes: The DC only dropped to 50 dollars within the last two months, which isn\'t enough time to really savor much of what the system has to offer. IMO, you\'d be a pretty piss poor excuse for a "experienced" gamer if you were bored with it already.

"I bought my PS2, $299.00 ,and one Game$50.00 and brought it home and I realized I had to go spend another $34.00 for a memory card." - NPYYZ

Well DUH! It took you THAT long to figure out it needed a memorycard to save games??? :rolleyes:

"I\'ve heard about updated dvd sorftaware for the ps.2 but I don\'t really care, real men use stand alone quality players. And don\'t forget the Sony remote." - nO-One

True dat. What\'s even nicer than progressive scan? A five disk DVD carousel that you can load and forget. Remote control is included with it too! If DVD is THAT big of a deal to you, perhaps you should have just postponed the purchase of 2 games in lue of a Standalone player. The PS2\'s feature is adequate as a "Crutch" to non-DVD enabled livingrooms.. most of which don\'t have HDTV\'s with which to neccesitate progressive scan features.

"Boy I really would like to be able to listen to some of my CD\'s while playing a game. Oh wait with the X-box CD copier I can. Sorry PS2 fans." - NPYYZ

nO-One is right, nice feature, but nothing a CD player can\'t do... and do better. Not to mention that this function isn\'t programmed into ALL the games, only certain select ones which are built with this feature in mind... like PGR.

"

Here are better and more upadted specs for the misinformed exerperienced guy that took so much time to show us misinformed specs

PS2

CPU: 128 Bit "Emotion Engine"

System Clock: 300 MHz
System Memory: 32 MB Direct Rambus
Memory Bus Bandwidth: 3.2 GB per second
Co-Processor: FPU (Floating Point Multiply Accumulator x 1, Floating Point Divider x 1)
Vector Units: VU0 and VU1 (Floating Point Multiply Accumulator x 9, Floating Point Divider x 1)
Floating Point Performance: 6.2 GFLOPS
3D CG Geometric Transformation: 66 million Polygons Per Second
Compressed Image Decoder: MPEG2
Graphics: "Graphics Synthesizer"


Clock Frequency: 150MHz
DRAM Bus bandwidth: 48 GB Per Second
DRAM Bus width: 2560 bits
Pixel Configuration: RGB:Alpha:Z Buffer (24:8:32)
Maximum Polygon Rate: 75 Million Polygons Per Second
Sound: "SPU2+CPU"


Number of voices: ADPCM: 48 channel on SPU2 plus definable by software
Sampling Frequency: 44.1 KHz or 48 KHz (selectable)
I/O Processor


CPU Core: Current PlayStation CPU
Clock Frequency: 33.8 MHz or 37.5 MHz (selectable)
Sub Bus: 32 Bit
Interface Types: IEEE1394, Universal Serial Bus (USB)
Communication via PC-Card PCMCIA
Disc Media: DVD-ROM (CD-ROM compatible)

Polygon Power

PlayStation 2: Around 20 million polygons per second
Project Dolphin: "As fast as our friends at Sony have," said a wry Nintendo Chairman Howard Lincoln.
Dreamcast: Around 3 million polygons per second
Nintendo 64: Around 150,000 polygons per second
PlayStation: Around 360,000 polygons per second (lacks comparable effects)
Main Clock Speed

PlayStation 2: 300MHz (294.912 to be exact)
Project Dolphin: 400MHz
Dreamcast: 200MHz
Nintendo 64: 93.75MHz
PlayStation: 33.86MHz
Memory


PlayStation 2: 32MB Direct Rambus RAM
Project Dolphin: Unannounced, but comparable to PlayStation 2
Dreamcast: 16MB (plus 8MB Video RAM, 2MB Sound RAM)
Nintendo 64: 4MB (+parity) Rambus D-RAM (expandable to 8MB)
PlayStation: 2MB (plus 1MB Video RAM, 512kb Sound RAM)
Memory Bus Bandwidth


PlayStation 2: 3.2 GB/s (Gigabytes per second)
Project Dolphin: Not announced yet
Dreamcast: N/A
Nintendo 64: 500 MB/s (Megabytes per second) or about 0.5 GB/s
PlayStation: 132 MB/s (Megabytes per second)


XBOX

CPU: 733 MHz chip crafted by Intel
Graphics Processor: 250MHz custom chip named XGPU, developed by Microsoft and nVIDIA
Total Memory: The RAM in the Xbox will be supplied by Micron, it will be 64 MB running at 200MHz DDR (Double-Data-Rate)
Memory Bandwidth: 6.4 GB/sec
Polygon Performance: 125 M/sec
Sustained Polygon Performance: 100+ M/sec (transformed and lit polygons per second)
Micropolygons/particles per second: 125 M/sec
Particle Performance: 125 M/sec
Simultaneous Textures: 4
Pixel Fill Rate - No Texture: 4.0 G/Sec (anti-aliased)
Pixel Fill Rate - 1 Texture: 4.0 G/Sec (anti-aliased)
Compressed Textures: Yes (6:1)
Full Scene Anti-Alias: Yes
Micro Polygon Support: Yes
Storage Medium: 2-5x DVD, 10GB hard disk, 8MB memory card
I/0: 2-5x DVD, 10GB hard disk, 8MB memory card
Audio Channels:64 (up to 256 stereo voices)
3D Audio Support: Yes
MIDI DLS2 Support: Yes
AC3 Encoded Game Audio: Yes
Broadband Enabled: Yes
Modem Enabled: No
DVD Movie Playback: Remote control package required
Maximum Resolution: 1920x1080
Maximum Resolution (2x32bpp frame buffers +Z): 1920x1080
HDTV Support: Yes
Controller Ports: 4 USB Ports

i pulled both from IGN

Originally posted by NPYYZ
to Ryu

Well if that is the way this message board works, then I shall take a page from your book and sign off by saying Your the ignorant fool, wake up and deal with the truth moron. [/B]

yeah another snippit on How to make enemys and alienate people

Consider this your first WARNING .(and thats not including what Ryu will do to you when he read your post).


As it is Highly Unwise to enter into a Fight with a Mod, when your clearly in the Wrong ! Starting Flame wars is a BIG NO NO, console debating is FOR INTELLIGENT CONSOLE DEBATING ! !

nice  Not Knowing You Mr "soon to be banned if he keeps it Up".

Please  READ this before you make a Bigger @rse of yourself.

"My last point on the issue is when i see a game on the PS2 that looks as good or better then Brute Force i will take notice. I have a demo Cd with Brute Force on it and if the actuall game looks that good, all i can say is WOW!!!!"

NPYYZ, I have that demo too. It\'s the Feb. Official Xbox Magazine demo.  This video is very clear and I\'ve seen the ingame too. I think the ingame will beat Halo.   It\'s just amazing!  Stop convincing people on this forum about the xbox is better.  Just let the systems prove themselves. I think the games will show.   Just be nice with people.  Did you know there is some people on the forum has xboxes too.  Even Mods like Ryu, MM and other members have them.  Just enjoy your gaming.  

Originally posted by pstwo


NPYYZ, I have that demo too. It\'s the Feb. Official Xbox Magazine demo.  This video is very clear and I\'ve seen the ingame too. I think the ingame will beat Halo.   It\'s just amazing!  Stop convincing people on this forum about the xbox is better.  Just let the systems prove themselves. I think the games will show.   Just be nice with people.  Did you know there is some people on the forum has xboxes too.  Even Mods like Ryu, MM and other members have them.  Just enjoy your gaming.  

I pretty much decided to do just that with my last post, As I admitted that both machince are excellent, I just happen to prefer the Xbox over the PS2, hell I was just playing GTA3 for 2 hours on the PS2,  but some people can\'t let it go.
here you go   ok you guys win PS2 rules!!!!!!

I\'m trying to follow the rules here so to respond to a few things here.

1st, ooseven responds to me by saying yeah it\'s newer so it must be better.  Where excatly did i say that, and how do you get that from anything i have said, do you understand what you read?

2nd, No-one as far a real men using stand alone DVD players I do, my home theater system has it\'s own DVD player ,and guess what, it\'s a sony. I only use the x-box in the gaming room when i feel like watching a DVD there. The xbox is not connected to my main home theater system.

3rd sonyfan, as far as playing the dreamcast to death, as i said i I bought it in November 2001 and yes I have only had it for a couple months, I still enjoy it, but at the moment I am spending more time with the XBOX. I never became bored with the DC. I will return to finish my code veronica game in the future. Is that ok?

From ooseven:
yeah another snippit on How to make enemys and alienate people  

Consider this your first WARNING

To that I say, let those who throw the first stone be warned also.


And to whomever posted the updates spec\'s thanks, that was interesting.

nO-One thank you for taking my post and giving the other side section by section, that is the kind of respose i was looking for, very imformative, and I am serious.

Look I admit i came to this board a bit pissed off. I have been going to the X-box message board for quite a while and it is full of PS2 people dumping all over the XBOX, so I figured why not give the PS2 people a taste of their own medicine. I could care less which machine is the best. At the moment for me it\'s the XBOX.

And Gamecube rocks, too!

...

Err... OK, I\'m going....

-Eik