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Poll

Best System?

S2
7 (29.2%)
C
2 (8.3%)
BOX
8 (33.3%)
C
7 (29.2%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Whats the system with the best hardware options?  (Read 1350 times)

Offline seven
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2002, 10:17:09 AM »
Freedom because PS2 developers are forced to work on a very deep level (hardware level) to achieve what they want. While this is very difficult and takes up a lot of time, it allowes developers to be very flexible in terms of how they want to achieve something. I guess you can compare it a bit with any 3rd generation programing (C, Java) language to a 1st gen (Assembly). While Assembler is very difficult to achieve, you can do much more stuff since you\'re on a much deeper level which C would never allow. Xbox developers have to do this to a certain extend to if they want to get some serious performance out of the vertex shaders - but PS2 developers have no choice but to program in C/C++, Assembler and Vector Microcode. As you might remember, the power of the Emotion Engine lies within the Vector Units and that\'s where developers will HAVE TO use specific microcode to get where they want. This is very hard, but gives the developers the freedom to achieve things the way they want.

Architecture that is 100% dedicated to 3d/2d processing:
Well, this one is easy. Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right? The PS2 however is designed from the core to the rest of the hardware components to run this specific type of applications. The high bandwidths, the small memory - it all adds up. You should read the article from Jon Hannibal at Ars, it\'s a very interesting read and explains why the PS2\'s design is more then excellent for this type of apps.

Connectivity:
Well, it\'s not necessery, but with the low price of the future upgrade of an BBA and HDD will ensure that they will be enough buyers who are interested to play online and other stuff. With connectivity I also ment the interfaces, that enables you to hook up any USB device, any thing really as long as the application allows it. This also give developers the freedom to implement things that people can make use of. This makes the PS2 have quite a potential if developers or Sony choose to make use of it.

Offline BizioEE

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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2002, 12:29:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by seven


Architecture that is 100% dedicated to 3d/2d processing:
Well, this one is easy. Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right? The PS2 however is designed from the core to the rest of the hardware components to run this specific type of applications. The high bandwidths, the small memory - it all adds up. You should read the article from Jon Hannibal at Ars, it\'s a very interesting read and explains why the PS2\'s design is more then excellent for this type of apps.


Graphics?
Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably... the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1.

For practical graphics/gaming applications, there is very little different between VU1 in the PS2 and the vertex shader on the NV2A, except for the fact that the vertex shader is vastly easier to program and runs much, much faster. And you\'d be silly if you thought that vertex shaders couldn\'t be parallelized -- in fact, the Xbox already has 2 of them.

VU1 has more temporary storage in its on-die RAM, some minimal integer computation capability, and the ability to branch -- aside from that, it really doesn\'t offer anything above and beyond what vertex shaders offer... and most of the branching/loading capability is used to do inane things like load vertices and matrices (things that are abstracted from the programmer in vertex shader assembly).
As for pixel shaders -- there are limitations in both competing pixel shader implementations (ATI\'s is slightly more generalized with a little more control given to the programmer for address computation texture stages, but DX8 makes it look much more generalized that it is); however, there is still quite a bit of opportunity for programmer-controlled pixel math, compared to virtually none on the PS2. Comparing pixel shaders with vector units is a very flawed concept.
Pixel shaders aren\'t going to become more and more complex -- they are going to become simpler, and capable of running unbelievably fast.

Sony, on the other hand, chose a difficult-to-understand architecture that is nigh-impossible to emulate without dedicated hardware and (unfortunately) has some rather significant flaws. There\'s nothing keeping Sony from fixing the flaws in the current GS; however, the costs of fabricating a chip with at least 16MB of embedded DRAM, at least 16 programmable pixel shader units (each with at least 2 texel fetch units), and running at at least 500MHz would probably eclipse the cost of NVIDIA\'s chip.

Quote

Connectivity:
Well, it\'s not necessery, but with the low price of the future upgrade of an BBA and HDD will ensure that they will be enough buyers who are interested to play online and other stuff. With connectivity I also ment the interfaces, that enables you to hook up any USB device, any thing really as long as the application allows it. This also give developers the freedom to implement things that people can make use of. This makes the PS2 have quite a potential if developers or Sony choose to make use of it.


add-ons = FAILURE !
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Offline ooseven
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2002, 12:34:40 PM »
X box because it is a PC in a box after all

:rolleyes:

i am kidding just kidding please don\'t quote or flame me

:clown:

look i know its a cheap shot but its been 3 days since i last bashed M$$$$$$$$

;)

that one was for  BizioEE
 
 
:p
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Offline BizioEE

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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2002, 12:43:46 PM »
Thanks ooseven :p
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Offline ooseven
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2002, 12:59:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE
Thanks ooseven :p


no problem ... i knew a lot of people must of been worried when a whole 3 days passed with out me bashing Microsoft ;)

they must of thought the worsed happend to me



..............

like Gates offering me a Job at his HQ ;)
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Offline BizioEE

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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2002, 01:19:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ooseven


no problem ... i knew a lot of people must of been worried when a whole 3 days passed with out me bashing Microsoft ;)

they must of thought the worsed happend to me



..............

like Gates offering me a Job at his HQ ;)


I was worried about you...:)
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AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
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Offline Sublimesjg
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2002, 05:19:49 PM »
well lets see if it was from those i would go to PC

but otherwise PS2 - ok i dont know what yall were getting but it says hardware options

- to me that means like what you can hook up to the PS2 - hence 40gig hdd beats out xbox - and possible 56k and bb beats out xbox as well

also you have usb and firewire on ps2 as well which support key and mouse - something xbox is lacking

also there are many other things that can be made to take advantage of those ports such as 4 controllers without multi tap

see there a lot that PS2 exceeds in and can exceed in with hardware "options"

otherwise duh its xbox for hardware only - i mean you get a pc from two years ago and compare it to one built today and lets see which one is better - its a gimmie why argue it
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Offline seven
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2002, 05:32:36 PM »
My God Bizio, you\'re a ****head. First of all, you posting articles you don\'t understand won\'t get you anywhere - and besides you completely missed my point and the one of this thread:

Quote
Graphics?
Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably... the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1.


What is this? I won\'t quote that stuff you copy/paste from else where, but is this necessery? At least post something relevant. It is a clear that the architecture of the PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications - something that Xbox simply IS NOT. With "Architecture", I wasn\'t talking about the VU\'s or the Vertex Shaders that Xbox has. Either read what I post or post something relevant but not that crap above.

Quote
add-ons = FAILURE !


Not necessarely. Are the memorycards a failure? No. It\'s all about the price and what people want. If the price is right and people like what they see, then they will buy it. Just because it\'s a add-on does not mean it will fail - right now it\'s all up to Sony and the developers. And BTW: we aren\'t taling about what is a failure or not - but what has "POTENTIAL" (see thread). You might be masculin, but you certainly don\'t have too many braincells up there do you?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2002, 06:31:53 AM by seven »

Offline M4
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2002, 01:31:21 AM »
Add ons are a failure when they cost too much.

Add ons like the Sega 32X failed.

Add ons like the Expansion Pak for N64 succeed.
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Offline mm
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2002, 05:08:09 AM »
there\'s one factor in the success rate of an addon

cost

thats it
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Offline Riku
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2002, 10:39:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by seven




Not necessarely. Are the memorycards a failure? No. It\'s all about the price and what people want. If the price is right and people like what they see, then they will buy it. Just because it\'s a add-on does not mean it will fail - right now it\'s all up to Sony and the developers.


The memory cards are a necessity...A 40 gig HD and modem are not.

And as far as price goes,  I don\'t like paying nearly 40$ for a memory card, it\'s that I have to...
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Offline seven
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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2002, 10:48:34 AM »
Yes, memory cars are necessity - but it\'s a add-on none the less. People buy memory cars because they want to save their progress. People will buy the HDD and BBA if they want to play online if the price is right. If this add-on will be a failure is up to Sony. ;)

Offline Riku
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2002, 10:59:33 AM »
Quote
People buy memory cards because they want to save their progress.


Have to, with games like Jak & Daxter, ICO, FFX,  and MGS2 that require you to put in the hours.  You have no option but to buy a memory card.

Going online is different, it\'s a niche crowd to begin with.  Then you have to purchase extra components...

Quote
People will buy the HDD and BBA if they want to play online if the price is right.


And also if the games entice enough to warrant such a price.

Can you buy one or the other, or do you have to buy both?
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Offline Sublimesjg
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2002, 03:23:22 PM »
you can buy just one or else they wouldnt sell them seperately now would they

the hdd is not needed to use the internet service for sony but is merely to take full advantage of the service through dling levels and games and music and so on

and another thing if you say hey here a mem card for 40 bucks but for 60 more dollars approxaimately you can have an endless supply of memory cards and also be able to play people over the internet

in that sense it doesnt sound so bad
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Offline BizioEE

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Whats the system with the best hardware options?
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2002, 07:42:59 AM »
Quote
What is this? I won\'t quote that stuff you copy/paste from else where, but is this necessery? At least post something relevant. It is a clear that the architecture of the PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications - something that Xbox simply IS NOT. With "Architecture", I wasn\'t talking about the VU\'s or the Vertex Shaders that Xbox has. Either read what I post or post something relevant but not that crap above.


You\'re the only one who posts crap...

What I care is the final result...and XBox outclasses PS2 graphically! PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications? and GC and XBox ? :rolleyes:   you\'re funny seven...after 2 years PS2 can\'t compete with DC in texturing and image quality...I see dev fighting with the hardware...and only good result in the graphics department...

stop to be a clown...playing with words...PS2 is an inferior piece of hardware compared to both XBox and GC! Overall!...and it\'s obvious...
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

 

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