I\'ve gotta stir up the religion pot again..this time

yes

god is all forgiving, remember?

you think cain went to hell?

no, I don\'t think he did

he died. His body went into the ground. Nothing more, nothing less. No heaven, no hell, nothing.

you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest

charles darwin did

dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic

but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd

I disagree with a couple of things said above.

1.  I believe that Cain was the first man to "deny the Holy Ghost," the worst possible sin a man could ever commit.  He knew God and talked with God, and in the end, he killed his brother and lied to God.  He is not going to heaven.  Why would he?  What has he done to deserve such a reward?  He is going to the worst possible place, the Outer Darkness, even below the Telestial Kingdom, where he will be miserable for eternity.

2.  Believing in Christ is not enough.  You also have to follow his example and strive to be as perfect as you could possibly be (as well as a few other things that are required on this life like Baptism and Eternal Marriage).  No, you will never be completely perfect in this life, but if you try as hard as you can to be as good as possible, Christ\'s grace will get you the rest of the way to heaven.

I don\'t understand completely though.  What exactly do you mean by "only takes one thing to get you into heaven, accepting jesus as yer savior, thats it."  Does that mean you don\'t have to repent on this world, because Jesus already paid for your sins in full?  And does that mean you can go out and do whatever you want, and as long as you say you believe in Christ you will go to heaven?  If so, then that kind of gets rid of the purpose of church, doesn\'t it?

Disc 2,

There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that God exists. You cannot say faith is proof.

Nor have I.  Faith is not proof.  Faith is faith.

I don\'t beleive in God, but I live my life in the best way I can and try to be kind and forgiving, and to broach everything with an open mind. Am I a bad person, am I going to hell?

No.  My church believes if you do live this life worthily, but you never accept the LDS church, you will go to the Terestial Kingdom (the middle kingdom).  Is this heaven?  By every other Christian church\'s definition even the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest kingdom not including the Outer Darkness) is heaven, so yes, I guess you would go to "heaven."  But by our churches standards, where we know you can do even better, this is hell.  Everything but the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is hell because in those lesser Kingdoms you do not have the ability to progress.  You will be stuck forever knowing you could have done better.

Does God need me to worship him so that I may gain entry to heaven, does God bargain?

God doesn\'t need you to worship him, but because he is your father, it probably makes him sad if you don\'t.  IMO, you are only cheating yourself if you don\'t have a direct one-on-one relationship with God.

Originally posted by mm
you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest

charles darwin did

dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic

but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd

the fact that darwin did is heavily disputed

and I beleive what has been proved. I beleive in science, and the strive for new knowledge, instead of clinging to the old. I want to know the truth, not some superstitions made up thousands of years ago when people did not know better.

Originally posted by IronFist

There is no way for me to prove my theory, and there is no way for you to prove it wrong (because you don\'t know the actual cause of Cancer, or AIDs, or diseases in general). But you win on this one -- I\'ll drop that "All diseases were put on this world because of the sinners" theory, because there really isn\'t any reason for me to believe that is the case.

Thank you for letting me "win" that one

Oh, and what if I say that some dinosaur fossils found have injuries similar to forms of bone cancer?
Hmmm...

Originally posted by IronFist

So you are willing to believe ancient documents recently found only when they work in your favor to prove your point, but you choose to ignore the findings that prove many of the stories in the Bible actually did happen? Or did you just not know about those findings? The Smithsonian Department of Anthropology says this about the Bible..........

....................

So I again ask the question, are you willing to accept some ancient documents as the truth while ignoring others?

I’m not willing to believe any ancient documents. But I can believe ancient documents that fit this:
If I hear a statement that someone says is a fact I first think about it to see if it seems logical and rational. I would also need to see evidence that support what this guy is telling me. Hard cold proof of it. If it is a theory I would need to see some facts that supports the theory that makes it reasonable.

Especially things that said one thing then (i.e. medical cancer records) and the same thing now but with documented proof.

I do recognize that the Bible has archeological correctness. Never said anything about that...
But what does that prove?
If I wrote a book 2000 years ago, writing about the city I lived in, about my country, and then I would write how purple lions jumped on a fire to make me eat them. Would that prove that purple lions actually cooked them selves so I could eat them?

Originally posted by IronFist

But what if you found, on your own, that what your parents had been teaching you your whole life was indeed the truth? Wouldn\'t you have a different opinion then?

Like people who found out the world was flat? Or like a person who on their own found out that a specific woman was a witch and then burned her alive?

If I found out something of my own, for an example let’s say I found out that plants need the sun in order to live. To make that a fact I must be able to prove my finding with evidence. Else I would not be able to tell it as a fact to another person.

Originally posted by mm
you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest

charles darwin did

dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic

but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd

Charles Darwin changed his mind?
Oh, that’s right, there was this religious (fanatic? ) woman claiming that... hmmm...

For me it is absurd to believe there is anything after death.
Why? (see above on my way of thinking)

I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.

If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids?  Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?

If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working.  Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next.  No signs of such life have been found.

Originally posted by -____-
I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.

If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids?  Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?

If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working.  Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next.  No signs of such life have been found.

This is the only example I can think of and its rather stupid to boot, but... look at young females for instance, for some reason they are starting to bloom bigger and earlier than in the last 20 years.

I remember when I was in grammer school, no chicks were really developed, now..I see 7th grade girls with D-cups, and they aren\'t fat either.


SO now after you all are done laughing,(i warned you that it was weak), Thats the only thing I can think of right now.

It\'s what the USDA puts in the beef that increases their bust size.  It\'s some type of growth hormones or something.  I forget, there was a study on it.

luckee : Now that\'s what I call survival of the fittest

Originally posted by IronFist
If you truely believe that religion is a bad thing, then you are being ignorant. This same thing was brought up in the other religion thread by Bossiman, and was refuted by AlteredBeast on the page after (link. Religions have been the cause of quite a few wars, but not nearly as many wars as the non-religious disputes. What is the cause of more wars, Religion, or land, oil, money, freedom, etc?

Also, many religions bring good throughout the world with charity and service. I don\'t see how you could see this as a bad thing.

I truely do believe that ignorance is a bad thing, and I don\'t think that\'s an ignorant view at all.  I have backed it up with facts, and can argue against all facts presented to the contrary.  Another thing, it probably is true that religion has caused less wars than conflicts over land of freedom.  That doesn\'t go against my arguement at all.  I said religion is bad, not that it is the only thing that is bad.  Sure there are other things in the world that cause conflicts or bad results.  All I\'m saying is I think religion is one of these things.  

Also, with your charity example, this proves nothing to me either.  This just shows that there are good people who are religious, and care about others.  In fact, I\'d guess that the vast majority of people, religious or non religious are "good people", and do things like this at some point.  There are plenty of charitable organizations not related to religion too.  It isn\'t the religion I credit with the charity, but the people practicing it.

As for Bossieman\'s post in that other topic, that isn\'t what I\'m trying to say at all, and I do not agree with what he said.

Can we blaim religion for what happened with the WTC?
Can we blaim religion for women in Africa having their clitoris cut away?
Can we blaim religion for people blowing up their self in crowded areas so a lot of people die?
Can we blaim religon for people dying because their religion says that they can´t use certain medicines?
Can we blaim Religion for sciencepeople being killed for their belives and theories?
Can we blaim relgion for the death of thousends of Afhanistan women and children?

He said religion can be blamed for all of this.  I say religion can be blamed for none of this.  These can be blamed on stupid or ignorant people who happen to be religious.  Just because someone is religious, doesn\'t mean that\'s what causes them to do stupid things.  I do think religion can be blamed for other events, such as the crusades, the inquisition, etc.  I still stand by my opinion that more bad has come from religion than good.  I\'ve given facts to back my arguement, which you simply discounted.  You have given me unrelated or barely related facts to back the opposing view.  Until you give me something a bit more credible, I couldn\'t see your side as having any merit.

So you would prefer to believe that this all started with a "big bang" that no one knows how or why it happened, that every creature evolved from one cell, and somehow the cell grew into what we are today -- probably the most complex thing on this world (if you\'ve ever really thought about it, dang, our bodies are so complex!), instead of believing that this was all created by God? I don\'t see how that\'s any less far fetched.  But to each his own.

Do you realize what you are saying.  LIke, actually take time to look at your belief.  You believe that some devine man or creature or whatever existed before anything else, and then created everything.  Tell me, when did God start to exist.  Was he just there forever?  If so, why is it any less possible that the universe has just been here forever, and there is a cycle of solar systems and galaxies being created and destroyed, life evolving on most until finally coming to an end?  Sounds more logical to me.  There is scientific theory behind that.  Behind your arguement is little more than blind faith.  The key word in that: blind.

Some versions of the Bible have been altered throughout history, and others are pretty accurate (I think even Troglodyte can agree that some of the Bibles have been altered significantly). First, which version of the Bible are you talking about. And second, what in the Bible have you found to be wrong?

I don\'t know my versions of the bible well, so I\'m not entirely sure what versions or translations I\'m thinking of.  Let me try to look into this a bit, and get back to you

Originally posted by luckee


This is the only example I can think of and its rather stupid to boot, but... look at young females for instance, for some reason they are starting to bloom bigger and earlier than in the last 20 years.

I remember when I was in grammer school, no chicks were really developed, now..I see 7th grade girls with D-cups, and they aren\'t fat either.


SO now after you all are done laughing,(i warned you that it was weak), Thats the only thing I can think of right now.

AHAHAHA...heh, I\'m j/k.  But, this is NOT evolution.  I wouldn\'t want women to turn into some other creature, and I\'m sure you wouldn\'t either.  Creatures and humans can ADAPT, but there is a huge difference between ADAPTATION and EVOLUTION.  You stated an example of adaptation.

Would you care to explain the difference to us?

Bjorn:

I do recognize that the Bible has archeological correctness. Never said anything about that...
But what does that prove?
If I wrote a book 2000 years ago, writing about the city I lived in, about my country, and then I would write how purple lions jumped on a fire to make me eat them. Would that prove that purple lions actually cooked them selves so I could eat them?

But the Bible is not like that.  It was not written by just one man, but instead was written by many people hundreds of years apart from each other who all talked about different experiences that point to there being a God.  Either (1) these people who wrote the book over a time span of thousands of years were really secluded from the rest of the world, and they were all brainwashed into believing the same false things, or (2) the many people who wrote the different sections of the Bible were really lucky to not contradict each other (at least, in the correctly translated versions of the Bible) or (3) the religious things in the Bible really did happen.

Shockwave:

I do think religion can be blamed for other events, such as the crusades, the inquisition, etc. I still stand by my opinion that more bad has come from religion than good. I\'ve given facts to back my arguement, which you simply discounted. You have given me unrelated or barely related facts to back the opposing view. Until you give me something a bit more credible, I couldn\'t see your side as having any merit.

Wait, you have given facts to back your argument of "religion has caused more bad then good"?  I don\'t think so.  All you have done is named a couple of bad events that were caused by religion, which happened hundreds of years ago I might add, then completely ignored the good things that religion has done for this world, saying something like (paraphrasing with my own little twist) "the people were responsible for those good acts, not the religion that brought them up to be that way."  The fact that you cannot see the good that religion brings is enough reason for me to believe that you do not know enough about religion.

Another problem is that you are grouping "religion" into one giant category and saying that religion is bad.  That\'s like me saying I think all humans are extremely evil because some humans have done really bad things, or all video games are bad because one person who played his N64 regularly for 8 hours a day died while playing.  The truth is, some religions have not caused wars and other problems with the world.  The LDS church is a great example of that.

Also, the LDS church (the church I am a member of) believes that no church was true between the time that the apostles were killed (about 100 AD), to the 1820s when Christ\'s church was restored onto this earth.  Surely you can\'t blame my church for the evil acts that happened at the time when we believe no true church was on the earth, can you?

Originally posted by -____-
I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.

If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids?  Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?

If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working.  Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next.  No signs of such life have been found.

thats stupidly ignorant.
How can we tell if something is in between changing from one animal to the next, because we don\'t know what the next animal is. Humans have changed form apes, and presumably still changing. Homo-erectus for example, half way between man and apes. Then they developed into homo-sapiens, which are probably slowly developing towards something else. But we don\'t think we\'re in the middle of the change, because "we\'ve always been like this"

if there was wide spread nuclear war, and some humans had developed a way to live freely despite nuclear radiation, all the other humans would slowly die out and these humans would become dominent (thats a very fast example, and unlikely to happen but you get my drift) and thats evolution.

1  2
these animals havn\'t evolved to suit their habitat? I suggest you read up on evolution before making claims that it\'s false

Well I missed this one when it first started but here is my 2 cents:

Debate questions,

1) Christians think God is all powerful
2) Christians think God loves every human on the face of the earth
3) Christians think God wants to "save" us (whatever that means)
4) Christians believe in hell, and view Satan as the landlord of this institution.
5) Christians believe that if you "mess up," you\'re going to hell.
6) Christians believe that Satan tries to lure otherwise good individuals into his "traps," taking said individual away from the "good" side.


Debate answers,

1) Yes, God is all powerful.
2) Yes, God loves every human.
3) Yes, God does want to save us from the eternal damnation that has been created for Satan. Hell was not ment to be for us, but Satan will do everything in his power to bring you there with him when he is cast into the lake of fire.
4) Hell does exist. But no, Satan is not the "landlord" of this instatution. God is lord of this earth and he has allowed Satan to roam the earth during his last days.
5) If any "christian" said that then you have God\'s permision to slap him. It says in the Bible that we as brothers in the body of Christ need to hold eachother accountable for our actions. Saying that statement is not truth and should be taken as deception. Jesus Christ came to love and save us. He cared for everyone he came in contact with. To be called a Christian is to be Christ-like. Get the point?
6) Satan has already "lured" many people into believing that if they are "good" they will go to heaven. The truth of it all though is that if you accept Jesus as your personal savior and confess your a sinner you are saved and thus have a seat in heaven. It will then be a joy to do good and not for the sake of your own well being. You will find it much more rewarding to be good and do good to others.
7) Oh yeah, there was no seven.