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Author Topic: Part 1: Origin of Life  (Read 3091 times)

Offline clowd
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« on: June 25, 2002, 02:26:35 AM »
Part I.  The Orgin of Life.


This explains why Moses says the moon and sun were made on the 4th day.  

On the first ‘day’ the expression ‘light came to be’ was used.  The Hebrew word used their  for light was ‘ohr, meaning light in a general sense,  but on the fourth ‘day’ the word changes to ma*’ohr,  which means the source of light.

On the first day light penetrated the waddling bands,  but the sources couldn’t be seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers around the entire earth.

Moses didn’t see the source of light until the 4th day,  where he saw them for the first time.

Some say there is a second creation story in chapter 2 of Genesis,  its simply more details of chapter 1.

How evolution started by Richard Dawkins.  -from the book Selfish gene

He speculates that in the beginning,  earth had an atmosphere composed of carbon dioxide, methane, ammonia and water.   Through energy by lightning or volcanoes these simple compounds were broken apart and formed into amino acids.  A variety of these gradually accumulated in the sea and combined into protein like compounds.

Ultimately,  he says,  the ocean became an “organic soup,” but still lifeless.

Then according to Dawking’s description, “a particulary remarkable molecule was formed by accident”  - a molecule that had the ability to reproduce itself.  Dawking admitted that such an accident was exceeding improbable,  he says it must have happened.  Similar molecules gathered together and by exceeding little probable accident,  wrapped a barrier of protective protein around themselves as a membrane.  Thus,  as he claims,  the first cell was born.

At this point a reader begins to understand what Dawking said in the preface to his book :

“This book should be read almost as though it was science fiction.”

Recent knowledge has only magnified the difference between living and dead things.

“The problem for biology is to reach a simple beginning,” says astronomers Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe. “Fossils residues of ancient life-forms discovered in the rocks do not reveal a simple beginning….so the evolutionary theory lacks a proper foundation.”

Steps of evolution

1)  The existence of the right primitive atmosphere and

2) a concentration in the oceans of an organic soup of “simple” molecules necessary for life.

3) From these come proteins and nucleotides (complex chemical compounds) that

4) combine and acquire a membrane and thereafter

5) they develop a genetic code and start making copies of themselves.

Do these steps correspond with the available facts?

Primitive atmosphere

In 1953 Stanley Miller passed an electric spark through an “atmosphere” of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor.  This produced some amino acids that exist,  but they are just building blocks of protein.  Also he managed to create only 4 of the 20 necessary for life.  Even today, scientists are unable to create all 20 needed under any conditions that can be considered plausible.

Miller says the conditions in the flask were that of the primitive atmosphere.  Why?  He and a coworker said: “The synthesis of compounds of biological interest takes place only under reducing (no free oxygen in the atmosphere) conditions.”  But evolutionist theorize that oxygen was present.

Hitching:  “With oxygen in the air, the first amino acids would have never got started; without oxygen, it would have been wiped out by cosmic rays.”

The fact is no one knows what earths primitive atmosphere was like.

Organic soup plausible?

If the amino acids escaped lightning in a primitive atmosphere, and survived the trip through ultraviolet radiation in the atmosphere,  evolution say they found their way beneath the surface of water.

But once amino acids are in the water, they must get out of it to form larger molecules and evolve toward proteins for the formation of life.  The problem is,  once out of the water they are back in ultraviolet radiation again!

Hitching:  “In other words,  the theoretical chances of getting through even this first relatively easy stage (getting amino acids) in the evolution of life is forbidding.”

Biochemist George Wald on molecules linking to each other in water: “Spontaneous dissolution is much more probable, and hence proceeds much more rapidly,  then spontaneous synthesis.”

Another stubborn problem that confronts the evolution theory.

Left hand right hand.

There are 100 amino acids, but only 20 are needed for life’s proteins.  Moreover, they come in 2 shapes.  Some are left handed, some are right handed.

If they were formed at random in a theoretical organic soup,  it is most likely that half would be left handed and half right handed.  There is no know reason as to why either shape should be preferred in living things.  Yet, of the 20 amino acids used in producing life’s proteins All are left handed!

Physicist J.D. Bernal:  “It must be admitted that the explanation…still remains one of the most difficult parts of the structural aspects of life to explain.”  He concluded “We may never be able to explain it.”


Probablility

To put the odds of nature randomly selecting the 20 amino acids better,  imagine digging a scoop into a pile of  100 beans,  full of different varieties.  When you take your scoop out you must have only 20 of the red beans,  and each one must be scooped into a proper place on the scoop.  Imagine doing that over and over and over all the time,  with the same results.  Impossible.  Virtually impossible.

What are the chances of a simple protein forming at random in a protein soup?  Evolutionists acknowledge the odds are 1 : 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

(Yes,  1 followed by 113 zeros.)

Amazing?  

2000 proteins serving serving as enzymes are needed for cell’s activity.  What are the chances of these being formed at random?  1: 1 followed by 40,000 zeros!

Amazing?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Hitching:  “The answer must be,  they developed in parallel.”

Does that sound reasonable?

Intelligent organizer

Arent the above odds too much to happen by chance?  

From Evolution from Space (Hoyle and Wickramasinghe)

“These issues are too complex to set numbers to.”  They add:  “There is no way…in which we can simply get by with a bigger, (which outrules small pools of sulpher) and better organic soup, as we ourselves hoped might be possible a year or two ago.  The numbers that we calculated above are essentially just as unfaceable for a universal soup as for a terrestrial one.”

After acknowledging that an intelligent designer must have some how been involved: “Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self evident.  The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.”

Some scientists say intelligence is mandatory,  but a creator is unacceptable.

QUOTES

“The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith.” -Mathematician J. W. N. Sullivan

“The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop.” -Biologist Edwin Conklin

“One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this task to concede that the spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible.” -Biochemist George Wald

“An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle.” -Biologist Francis Crick

“If one is not prejudiced by either by social beliefs or by scientific training into the conviction that life originated (spontaneously) on the Earth, this simple calculation (the mathematical odds against it) wipes the idea entirely out of court.”  -Astronomers Fred Hoyle and N. C. Wickramasinghe

Not all scientists accept it

Physicist H. S. Lipson  on the odds against  spontaneous origin for life, said:  “The only acceptable explanation is creation.”

Astronomer Robert Jastrow: “Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of a direct act of creation.”

This is my post on the origin of life.  Soon I will post about evolution of animals, and even more evidence that points to an intelligent designer.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 11:38:52 AM by clowd »

Offline Black Samurai
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2002, 02:43:19 AM »
[SIZE=\"4\"][COLOR=\"Red\"]I\'m sorry, That\'s not a hair question.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Offline Kenshin
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2002, 03:33:00 AM »
Dude Clowd you seriously need to chill out with this whole religion vs science thing. It alreaedy got you trolled and your pic and post count stripped away.

It\'s good and all that you are such an avid hardcore Christian and all but its one thing to try and force your ideas onto other people. That just won\'t happen. Everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs. Who are you to say I\'m right and your wrong. God created this and God created that. Heck i\'m a Christian and I believe in God. I pray to him for forgiveness and gudiance every night before I sleep. But you dont see me going on a rampage when someone writes about something scientific like his/her theory on evolution and what not.

You just need to drop this whole war on evolution and science. THIS IS A GAMING FORUM. It is not a God Vs Science Forum. You keep this up and you\'ll be banned from this forum. That isn\'t a threat. Thats the truth. All your doing is trying to get people to see things your way. The admins and mod don\'t have anything against posting your opinion but when you start flame wars, you are just asking for trouble. You just need to chill out and realize everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

By now I honestly don\'t think anyone would really care about anything you say or try to prove. You have just done too much damage to your name and credibility. Time for you to just take a bow and walk quietly off the stage.
Oro?!?

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Offline clowd
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2002, 03:41:45 AM »
I expected posts like yours to follow my post...

Members have said I have no facts, so I posted them.  They have gone as far as saying Im a \'troll\' for what reasons,  are unkown.  Now Im trying to force my opinion on you?

Im not forcing anything.  You read the facts,  you make of it what you want.  I dont have any credibility?  My post is basic science with quotes from scientists.  This isnt me talking,  its scientists.

EDIT:  I started flame wars?  Who does all the flaming?  Who does the name calling?  Who is it impossible to have a debate with,  without name calling or flaming intervening?  Last time I checked this board was called off-topic, not console disscusion.  Do you remember how this got started?  Creationism was called stupid.

Rampages? :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 04:07:54 AM by clowd »

Offline SER
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2002, 03:56:21 AM »
My Bible class last year touched on many subjects, including this. I wish you all could read my textbook, because it touches on all the other worldviews including Secular & Cosmic Humanism, Marxism, etc.. and how they all compare and contrast to Christianity. I really don\'t like to debate, because it takes too much of my time, but yea I just wanted to say that. ;)

Offline shockwaves
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2002, 08:16:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Clowd
I expected posts like yours to follow my post...

Members have said I have no facts, so I posted them.  They have gone as far as saying Im a \'troll\' for what reasons,  are unkown.  Now Im trying to force my opinion on you?

Im not forcing anything.  You read the facts,  you make of it what you want.  I dont have any credibility?  My post is basic science with quotes from scientists.  This isnt me talking,  its scientists.

EDIT:  I started flame wars?  Who does all the flaming?  Who does the name calling?  Who is it impossible to have a debate with,  without name calling or flaming intervening?  Last time I checked this board was called off-topic, not console disscusion.  Do you remember how this got started?  Creationism was called stupid.

Rampages? :rolleyes:


Quote
Originally posted by Clowd
get a education


Quote
Originally posted by Clowd
Jews are no longer Gods people


...sure, you haven\'t started anything :rolleyes:

And you have also never posted a source to back up your so called facts.  Might wanna try that for a change.

Oh, and one more time, since you clearly still haven\'t gotten it: Evolution has nothing to do with how life began. :rolleyes:

Someone give this man his picture back
.::§hockwave§::.

Offline videoholic

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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2002, 08:25:19 AM »
I\'m tired of this crap.

I have to say Clowd that your entire post is a bunch of theories.  No facts, just theories.  No biggie though cause I don\'t give a rats ass about any of this anymore anyway. You have certainly tired me out with your shear ignorance and your lack of an open mind.

And can we repeat ourselves any more.  No one is debating you on how life was created!!  It\'s about how life has evolved.

Pulling lines out of the bible and showing them as fact is absolutely ludicrous.  Blah Blah Blah..

I have to go back to work.

PS: Did you hear they found two new species of monkeys?  Hmmmmm....
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Offline politiepet
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2002, 08:25:37 AM »
[Janice\'s voice] OH...MY...GOD!!!![/Janice\'s voice]

seriously GO AWAY!!!
#RaCeR#:
i hope they all get aids and die they should bnt tbbe having sezx with just anyone they should be in love if theay are foing to have sex not just to make money I htink its wrong for them to just have sexzx for the fun of it specially when some of the performancs are married, its just wrong. tey are givng out deaseases to anyone and its just not right i tell you i think its really really wrong specially when tey have sex i dot whach porno though so im not sure what they do i dont theink theyr realy hjave sex its all just pretendnig but you never no what they do its just wrong speciallly when they dont even love each other its wrong i ell you in tsi just wrong. wtings owting wtrong wtongs wtongs. i dont like it. prlease explaions.

Offline clowd
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2002, 08:29:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by shockwaves


...sure, you haven\'t started anything :rolleyes:

And you have also never posted a source to back up your so called facts.  Might wanna try that for a change.

Oh, and one more time, since you clearly still haven\'t gotten it: Evolution has nothing to do with how life began. :rolleyes:

Someone give this man his picture back



Look,  finally a post that you cant deny,  only can complain about.  Who is running now?  

This doesnt dissaprove of your \'evolution\'  but it proves there is a cretor.

No need for a source,  there is all quotes.  If I got it from different books how can I give one source?


You want me to post the x rated things said about me?


Shockwaves if you think God created a cell or a human,  and left it alone to evolve,  thats one type of debate.

If you think God isnt envolved thats quite another type of debate.

Please clear this up,  did life appear on earth by intelligent design on chance?  The question is simple

Offline clowd
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2002, 08:31:00 AM »
SO you all believe in a creator.  Yes or no.  SImple answer

VIDEOHOLIC your a fool for thinking what I posted was theories.  



A bloody fool.

Offline politiepet
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2002, 08:32:24 AM »
If you say so
#RaCeR#:
i hope they all get aids and die they should bnt tbbe having sezx with just anyone they should be in love if theay are foing to have sex not just to make money I htink its wrong for them to just have sexzx for the fun of it specially when some of the performancs are married, its just wrong. tey are givng out deaseases to anyone and its just not right i tell you i think its really really wrong specially when tey have sex i dot whach porno though so im not sure what they do i dont theink theyr realy hjave sex its all just pretendnig but you never no what they do its just wrong speciallly when they dont even love each other its wrong i ell you in tsi just wrong. wtings owting wtrong wtongs wtongs. i dont like it. prlease explaions.

Offline shockwaves
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Part 1: Origin of Life
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2002, 08:33:22 AM »
Tell me what religion you are, since that was asked first, and maybe I\'ll answer.

I\'m just saying proving creationism to disprove evolution is incredibly stupid.  If creation happened, it is very possible that evolution followed it.

And until you have some source to back up what you post, it is just theories to me.  Infact, pretty much all of it is just theories anyway.

Quote
Originally posted by Clowd



Look,  finally a post that you cant deny,  only can complain about.  Who is running now?  


I\'m not running, I\'m just tired of posting the same arguements over and over, the way you are.  Give it up.  Damn

Oh, and ever hear of editting your posts?  Creating 2 posts in a row is unneccesary in situations like this.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 08:35:38 AM by shockwaves »
.::§hockwave§::.

Offline clowd
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2002, 08:43:08 AM »
You have nothing to say about the thread,  because it is completly true.

THEORIES?

YOUR A FOOL LIKE VIDEOHOLIC

BOSSIEMAN!  WE NEED SOMEBODY IN HERE WITH AN EDUCATION HIGHER THEN HIGHSCHOOL

Offline shockwaves
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2002, 08:48:09 AM »
How are things with the words "speculates", "theorize", "probability", and "some say" facts?  They are theories in themselves...just less tested and proven ones.

And I have nothing to say about your thread because you have posted it so many times, that everyone is tired of hearing it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2002, 08:54:29 AM by shockwaves »
.::§hockwave§::.

Offline politiepet
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2002, 08:50:11 AM »
please people, do not respond to him, for he will go on..... and on and on and on.



If I were a mod, I would so close this thread (hint hint)
#RaCeR#:
i hope they all get aids and die they should bnt tbbe having sezx with just anyone they should be in love if theay are foing to have sex not just to make money I htink its wrong for them to just have sexzx for the fun of it specially when some of the performancs are married, its just wrong. tey are givng out deaseases to anyone and its just not right i tell you i think its really really wrong specially when tey have sex i dot whach porno though so im not sure what they do i dont theink theyr realy hjave sex its all just pretendnig but you never no what they do its just wrong speciallly when they dont even love each other its wrong i ell you in tsi just wrong. wtings owting wtrong wtongs wtongs. i dont like it. prlease explaions.

 

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