9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?

i dunno i find this a little sick...



but id just come of my break at work.. and all the peep was saying about it.....

Ok Mejian, I can understand the need for having protection.. but how far is it going to go? Won\'t it be a hassle to move troops through Palestinian territory to the Israili borders since (as I understand it) Isriel controls territory on both sides of the nation? It seems silly to me to have a country devided into several border territories while still leaving the middle open for another government and ethnic group.. expecially where there is so much mistrust and bitterness between them?

Really, the only secure and feasable route to go is to have a unified country as either all Isriel or all Palestine.. one which can draw resources from nearby sources without having to worry about ship them clear across the nation or haggling with the locals over what\'s Isreili territory and what\'s not when they are needed. I think the Palestinians fear the need for security and resources will drive Israilies farther and farther into their territory. A sort of, "Manifest Destiny" of Israilies own in a sence. I\'m not saying the Israilies are evil.. don\'t think that.. and I know that they (above all others) should know the face of genocide and wish to avoid it. Still, a great many evils have been done unintentionally.. and this could happen in Isriel if they\'re not careful.

At least you agree with me that Isriel should withdrawl from their occupied territories, as I\'m sure a great many Israilie citizens do.  

As for a difference in Political reasons and Religeous ones, it\'s my understanding that religeon and politics are closely intertwined over there.. at least for the Palestinians. (Isriel has adopted a seperation of Church and State policy similar to America no?) It\'s because of the oppression they feel that they are driven to such means. Religeous leaders use their and their families situations to provide them with an easy out. (The 72 or whatever virgins in heaven, guanteed) I hate to see you use the term brainwashing, since I believe that IS in their bible somewhere.. but I am forced to admit that most all organized religeon is just mass brainwashing. Look at the fools giving their money to Televangelists over here for a free ticket to heaven, after all.

And I agree that someone must find a way to stop independant financeers from paying cash sums to the families of suicide bombers. That right there would cut down on the terrorist attacks greatly. One thing about the terrorist bombing tho.. as I\'ve said I don\'t condone them. Don\'t think (unlike other people here) that I do. My opinion of them however would turn around 180 digrees into most likely full support if they were directed solely at military targets.

On a final note: I don\'t think the situation will make any progress until both Arafat and Barak are out of office and replaced with cooler headed leaders. Shouldn\'t be too hard for Isriel.. but finding a leader that is willing to broker peace and still gain the support of the Palestinian people will be a difficult task. Good luck to everyone ~Palestinian and Israili alike~ if Arafat is replaced by one of the more militant members of the PLO.

I wonder what would happen if the UN stepped in and took away what they originally gave both sides. Id bet they would manage to figure something out quite quickly if neither one of them had any land.

Well, I was on holiday in Tenerife, just watched it on TV all day

Erm, Gig.. yer digging yerself deep here.. you realize that right?

1. Yes, Clinton lied under oath. So? A lie is a lie, weither under oath or not.. and all presidents have done it. This is such a petty little argument, and one that even a shred of common sence should blast apart. Even you\'re precious Bushies and Regans have lied before. (Although, I can\'t quite blame Regan.. after all.. he was so senile durring his second term that it\'s amazing he could remember his own name.)

As for Adultry.. lol.. what does that have to do with how a guy preforms his job? Picasso could have a been a man-whore, but does that make his paintings any less impressive? No. Why should it be the defining mark of weither a president is good or not? Well I guess Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, and many -MANY- others were all horrible horrible presidents as well. Jesus, the only reason it\'s a big deal is because the Republicans MADE it one. Ugh.. see Ace.. this is the brainwashing the gov\'t does through the media I was talking about earlier.

2. As for Nixon being a great president..are you really that dence or are you jus caught up in the heat of the argument and not paying attention. Once AGAIN, you\'ve totally misconstrued my meaning. That\'s what.. 0 for 4 here? Do I have to use one sylable words to talk to you now or something? LBJ and Nixon were far worse presidents than Clinton, which is why I said that while he may not be great.. he\'s not the worst (which I, and most people, equate with Johnson and Dickky N.) Well, some may not agree with my assessment of LBJ, but I think he was a SOB - totally fuxored up our efforts in Vietnam - LIED to the public - and generally jus skirted by with no real claim to fame other than to pissed off Vietnam vets and JFK conspiracy theorists.

3. As for Native Americans not paying taxes.. that would be because they\'re not AMERICAN CITIZENS. *Gasp* BTW: Great choice you\'re MD mentality left these people. Either assimilate into our culture or run a casino. It\'s not like there\'s a whole lot of choice considering the sparce land they occupy.. usually deserts berift of any real natural resources. Raking in cash.. lol.. have you ever even BEEN to a reservation? Huh?

And since when did I say everyone of NA decent lives on a reservation? Yes, most of this generation is growing up and going to collage.. leaving the reservation to become American citizens. Where\'s their culture? The reservation. Where\'s they\'re lifestyle? The Reservation. Where\'s their Language? The Reservation. Where is the only place they can celebrate many of their rituals? The Reservation.

You really astound me, you know that. /me shakes his head.

Yet, after all this.. you can still call me "Ignorant and Uneducated". These are the best arguments you can hit me with? Petty quabbles about Clinton and a complete and (might i say) dangerously ignorant view of NA\'s. What I\'ve tried to do with this thread is open up a dimension of debate by adding in a similar situation to compair and contrast.. however it\'s turned into an " NA awareness" thread because you\'re blatantly ignorant on the subject that you can\'t even discuss it properly - forcing me to correct you. Not to mention that YOU\'RE the one who invited the parallel in the first place by bringing up the Palestinians when there was absolutely NO reason to do so.

Crusade.. pah.. I\'ve kept it contained to one thread. Woohoo.. while you tried to spread the argument to another completely seperate thread. Nice bait, but I ain\'t takin it. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by SonyFan
Erm, Gig.. yer digging yerself deep here.. you realize that right?

1. Yes, Clinton lied under oath. So? A lie is a lie, weither under oath or not.. and all presidents have done it. This is such a petty little argument, and one that even a shred of common sence should blast apart. Even you\'re precious Bushies and Regans have lied before. (Although, I can\'t quite blame Regan.. after all.. he was so senile durring his second term that it\'s amazing he could remember his own name.)

As for Adultry.. lol.. what does that have to do with how a guy preforms his job? Picasso could have a been a man-whore, but does that make his paintings any less impressive? No. Why should it be the defining mark of weither a president is good or not? Well I guess Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, and many -MANY- others were all horrible horrible presidents as well. Jesus, the only reason it\'s a big deal is because the Republicans MADE it one. Ugh.. see Ace.. this is the brainwashing the gov\'t does through the media I was talking about earlier.

2. As for Nixon being a great president..are you really that dence or are you jus caught up in the heat of the argument and not paying attention. Once AGAIN, you\'ve totally misconstrued my meaning. That\'s what.. 0 for 4 here? Do I have to use one sylable words to talk to you now or something? LBJ and Nixon were far worse presidents than Clinton, which is why I said that while he may not be great.. he\'s not the worst (which I, and most people, equate with Johnson and Dickky N.) Well, some may not agree with my assessment of LBJ, but I think he was a SOB - totally fuxored up our efforts in Vietnam - LIED to the public - and generally jus skirted by with no real claim to fame other than to pissed off Vietnam vets and JFK conspiracy theorists.

3. As for Native Americans not paying taxes.. that would be because they\'re not AMERICAN CITIZENS. *Gasp* BTW: Great choice you\'re MD mentality left these people. Either assimilate into our culture or run a casino. It\'s not like there\'s a whole lot of choice considering the sparce land they occupy.. usually deserts berift of any real natural resources. Raking in cash.. lol.. have you ever even BEEN to a reservation? Huh?

And since when did I say everyone of NA decent lives on a reservation? Yes, most of this generation is growing up and going to collage.. leaving the reservation to become American citizens. Where\'s their culture? The reservation. Where\'s they\'re lifestyle? The Reservation. Where\'s their Language? The Reservation. Where is the only place they can celebrate many of their rituals? The Reservation.

You really astound me, you know that. /me shakes his head.

Yet, after all this.. you can still call me "Ignorant and Uneducated". These are the best arguments you can hit me with? Petty quabbles about Clinton and a complete and (might i say) dangerously ignorant view of NA\'s. What I\'ve tried to do with this thread is open up a dimension of debate by adding in a similar situation to compair and contrast.. however it\'s turned into an " NA awareness" thread because you\'re blatantly ignorant on the subject that you can\'t even discuss it properly - forcing me to correct you. Not to mention that YOU\'RE the one who invited the parallel in the first place by bringing up the Palestinians when there was absolutely NO reason to do so.

Crusade.. pah.. I\'ve kept it contained to one thread. Woohoo.. while you tried to spread the argument to another completely seperate thread. Nice bait, but I ain\'t takin it. :rolleyes:

tsk tsk :rolleyes:

When you get an education past the 10th grade let me know Sony...

Originally posted by GigaShadow
When you get an education past the 10th grade let me know Sony...

I\'m sorry, but that was a little low. No, it was VERY low. A man\'s education doesn\'t dictate his intelligence NOR knowledge.

EDIT: Lol, changed a word that was slightly out of place... that\'s what you get when writing replies in the commercial breaks.

I was going to give you some type of respect in some of your postings, but if that is all you can respond with, I think Im going to have to dismiss most if not all of what you say.

At this time..hell it should have been clearly and explicitly mentioned before. I think we all need to calm down abit and post rationaly without insults and smart remarks that can be mistaken as insults b/c each of us have different OPINIONS

Originally posted by Samwise
I\'m sorry, but that was a little low. No, it was VERY low. A man\'s education doesn\'t dictate his intelligence NOR knowledge.

Well Samwise, I PM\'d him telling him it was a fun debate no hard feelings etc etc and he keeps attacking me.  Whatever... this thread has gone to pot.

I took the liberty of editing the quote as well, hope you don\'t mind -Sam[/size]

Originally posted by luckee
I was going to give you some type of respect in some of your postings, but if that is all you can respond with, I think Im going to have to dismiss most if not all of what you say.

 

Eh... he was the one who started attacking me... I guess that is what happens when you really do have a weak argument.  Anyway I already dismiss everything you say Luckee

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by GigaShadow


Well Samwise, I PM\'d him telling him it was a fun debate no hard feelings etc etc and he keeps attacking me.  Whatever... this thread has gone to pot.

I\'m inclined to agree. I only started it as a "where & what where you doing at..." thread. All of a sudden, it\'s turned into a slanging match.

I attacked you first? Please.. quote me on where I attacked you first. After all, it wasn\'t until you claimed me to be a "Clinton Genner" (A negetive statement by the way it was used in context, since you obviously have a problem with Clinton) and claiming I was full of PC BS. It wasn\'t until after that, that this thread started to excilate into more of an argument than a discussion.

BTW: You could have made your intentions clear here in the forum. I don\'t check my PM\'s often, and I haven\'t even left this section of the forum since we started debating. There was no way to see it. A simple "check your PM\'s" would have sufficed.

Oh.. and no.. I don\'t hold a grudge. This is the internet.. and it\'s not like insulted Sierra or anything. I think you\'re a lil more ignorant than before.. you think I\'m a lil more ignorant than before. Heh.. happens all the time between members on these forums - and any scrap of animocity I have towards you is gone as soon as leave this thread.

I won\'t pretend to know much about the Native Americans, but I can and will say that the Palestinian/Israeli parallels were essentially introduced only because of misinformation and false assumptions.

I mentioned Israeli PM Barak because he held the office at that time, but since then Ariel Sharon has taken over that office.  Arafat, whether or not he can actually control the terrorist regime he helped create and continues to support, has been taken out of all political equations as far as the Israeli gov\'t is concerned, that\'s the one thing I do agree with, at least.  Sharon is actually an Israeli general, and if ANYONE in Israel\'s government would have had the guts (and stupidity) to kill Arafat, it would have been him.  And we ALL know that he had plenty of opportunities to do so, but the fact is, and Israel recognizes this, that a live Arafat with little actual power is much less of a problem than a dead and martyred one.  That is the only reason Arafat still lives today.

Yes, politics and religion are deeply intertwined in the Middle East, sadly, in Israel as well.  It may be a democracy, but it is one that granted a (now very influential) political party to the Orthodox religious Jews living there.  Sadly.

The whole Israeli Manifest Destiny thing also doesn\'t apply, since Israel is in no way seeking expansion of her borders.  We have been more than willing to negotiate down to fairer borders, but we will NOT return to the ridiculous Oslo accord borders, which would spark a situation much like happened in the 1950s and 1960s.  Had Israel been seeking genocide, they could have accomplished it long ago, multiple times.  To think that Israel seeks to wipe out Palestine is ludicrous.  One of the original contributing factors to the ongoing Palestinian/Israeli conflict is the Arab World\'s unanimous rejection of the UN\'s original plans for a United State of Palestine (and Israel) after WWII, and the horrible way which the other countries, such as Jordan, treated the Palestinian "refugees."

The issue of religion and brainwashing is not one I\'m going to visit here, but I can assure you that nowhere in the Koran does it say that all good Muslim boys (and now women too) are supposed to go and self-detonate themselves, taking out as many Israeli\'s as possible.  Anyone who has been led to that belief or conclusion under religious or political guidance has been brainwashed.  And this type of mentality is the norm in Palestine and many other Arab nations, where the government overtly controls the media.

I don\'t have any maps readily available to show the current border disputes between Palestine and Israel, but I can say one thing.  Should Israel and Palestine ever come into a mutual agreement concerning borders, Israel would be the one that would actually do their best to maintain the status quo.  It\'s the Arab world that can\'t be trusted in that regard, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past 50 years.

For **** sake, 3000 or more people died exactly a year ago today, and some of ya\'ll are argueing of what we should mourn over.

Why this day?

[Titan]

I remember every detail but it is a bit long to write. Maybe I\'ll write it later. Long story short, I was at school and they announced it then.