Religious Discussion 101 (See page 7)

Originally posted by Rya


Define the "things" that are "changing."

my hair, and its going away...

Rya getting back to what you said about the KKK being Christian and killing Jews?  Wasn\'t Jesus a Jew?  This shows they are not Christians.  How can you hate Jews when the one you believe is God\'s son is a Jew?  You hate the ones race your religion is named after?

What I meant by we all came from God is that God created Jesus first,  then created the entire Universe through Jesus.  I do not believe that God,  Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 equals in one.  This comes from Greek philosiphers like Plato.  If there is a trinity that is EQUAL why does Jesus say the father is greater then I?  Why would he pray to himself?  Did the creator of the Universe die?  Why does Jesus tell us to only give worship to God?

My quote classifys all 6 creative \'days\' as one \'day\',  thus eliminating the idea of 24 hour days.  How can 6 days equal 24 hours?  He must have been talking about something like \'in my grandfather\'s day\' which would  classify any amount of time,  like 1920-1960.

Ironfist where is it in the Bible that says Jesus and God had human bodies?  I understand that God said he would make man in his image but he was meaning they had freewill,  not like the animals who just lived on instinct.

Originally posted by shockwaves

Mainly the change in the physical properties or the motion of any physical objects that can be seen and measured by those doing the measuring (humans).

Physical properties and the motion of physical objects...example being...?

To Clowd:

My quote classifys all 6 creative \'days\' as one \'day\', thus eliminating the idea of 24 hour days.

Ah, I understand now.  I was just looking at the quote in my copy of the Bible (the New International Version; I don\'t know what version you have), and that line that you posted says something different.
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created." Genesis 2:4
Maybe that was something close to what you wanted to get across.  That there is no indication of a 24 hour day, but just that this is what happened before man popped onto earth.  

God created Jesus first, then created the entire Universe through Jesus

Whoa!  Wait!  I thought that God created the universe, created life on earth, and then created man.  Man screwed up for years and then Jesus was born.  Or do you mean something different?

I do not believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 equals in one.

Why aren\'t they equal?  From what I understand, God is the Father of humanity, Jesus is the Brother of humanity, and the Holy Spirit is the Inspiration (if I understanded IronFist correctly) of humanity.  They all have equal purpose in a Christian\'s life.  I don\'t see people making a bigger (or as big) a deal about the Angels Michael or Gabriel like they do about the Trinity.

why does Jesus say the father is greater then I

Oh yeah, like Jesus is going to say that he\'s greater than his father.  Even an athiest wouldn\'t say "I\'m greater than God." And if you think on the father-son relationship, when a son is an adult, the father starts to look upon the son as an equal.

Why would he pray to himself?

Have you ever heard or said the following?  "Oh come on, (insert own name here).  I know you can do this.  It\'s easy.  Have faith in yourself.  You\'ve done this once, you can do it again.  Come on..."

the KKK being Christian and killing Jews? Wasn\'t Jesus a Jew? This shows they are not Christians.

I absolutely agree with your statement here.  They\'re killing people of the same ethnic group that the founder of their religion was born into.
But they believe that they are true Christians, just like every Christian believes that his/her church is the true church.  And going back to the issue of immorality, who is to judge what\'s moral and what\'s immoral when only God should be the one who passes judgement?

Rya:

Still a tad bit confusing, but it\'s ok. There are some things that some of us never get. Like how males always ponder why females are hard to understand (we\'re not really).

I guess I just don\'t understand your question.  Here\'s what you should do, reword your question so any idiot could understand it, then dumb it down a little more.  Even I should be able to understand a question like that.

True, all we need to do it make time. But even when we do find that time to do something, it\'s usually taken up in taking care of finances, fixing the roof. People can\'t even find time to exercise or eat right anymore.

But many people can find time to exercise and eat right.  My Dad has been eating right for the past couple years, and he runs 2-3 miles every other morning.  He also has a 50+ hour/week job.  I don\'t think the problem is not having enough time.  I think it\'s that most Americans are lazy.

If God had a God of his own, shouldn\'t we be reverring that higher God because it is higher than the God who\'s being worshipped now?

Who do you respect and look up to more, your father, or your grandpa?  I know this answer will vary from person to person, but I would think that in most cases people look up to their father more; the person who gave life to them, the person who raised them (along side of the mother).

And if God was born human once, then can\'t that mean that one of the humans today be changed into a God himself or herself?

Yes, my church believes that.  I even wrote it in my last post (you must have just not noticed it).  Read the first bulleted section again.

Speaking of women, why is it that women are portrayed so vilely in the Bible? Why hasn\'t the church tried to correct this image of women? I thought that as the children of God, we are all equal in his eyes. Eve was emphasized as the cause of human damnation, why isn\'t Adam blamed just as badly?

Well in many Christian churches, people are baptised right when they are born because they believe that they are born sinners because of Adam\'s sin.  I don\'t believe in the practice of infant baptism, but this does show that both Adam and Eve are blamed, not only Eve like you may think.

Why doesn\'t God just smite the ones who do use his name in vain. Like zap him on the spot? The person who does use it in vain is going against one of the 10 commandments.

Because that would take away their free will.  Free will is very important to God.  In fact, because God gave us free will is the reason we needed Jesus Christ to make it back to heaven (because we can choose to sin).  If we didn\'t have free will, this world would be completely different. (we would be drones, obeying every command given to us.)


Oh, and thanks for the info about "Bar Mitzvah."  I have one more question about it.  Does the family have to listen to the boy read the whole old testiment?!  Or does the boy just read a part of it?

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Clowd:

Ironfist where is it in the Bible that says Jesus and God had human bodies? I understand that God said he would make man in his image but he was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct.

It\'s obvious that the Bible says Jesus Christ has a physical body.  The whole New Testament was about his mortal life!  And after he was crucified, he was resurrected and returned to the people and showed them that he still had a physical body.

And about God the Father...that is the great thing about the LDS church.  We don\'t need to rely on one 2000+ year old book for all of our knowledge of God.  We believe in other books that came from God.  And even more importantly, we believe in modern day prophets of God, who get revelation directly from God.  My religion is not based off of the Bible.  The Bible does support my religion though.  We can believe that God has a physical body even if that docterine is not found in the Bible.

And here\'s a question for you:  Where in the Bible does it say that God "was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct"?  Yeah, that\'s what I thought.  It doesn\'t.    That is just one of the many interpretations that have come from man, not from God himself.

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Rya:

Rya said in response to Clowd:  
Whoa! Wait! I thought that God created the universe, created life on earth, and then created man. Man screwed up for years and then Jesus was born. Or do you mean something different?

I agree with Clowd on this one.  Jesus was the one who created the earth.  I believe that he was a spirit at the time though (I\'m not sure what Clowd believes).  Jesus was given authority over this world because both God and Jesus knew that this world would be where Christ would be crucified.  I believe that God has created many many worlds, but this world is the only one that Jesus himself created.

In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)  Jesus Christ is "the Word".  He was with God the Father.  And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.

To IronFist:

I guess I just don\'t understand your question. Here\'s what you should do, reword your question so any idiot could understand it, then dumb it down a little more. Even I should be able to understand a question like that.

Oh, no...you did a fine job answering that question.  I should have been a bit clearer when I replied to it.    What I meant was that I was having a hard time grasping the concept, that\'s all.  But, still, my thanks to you for your efforts.

I don\'t think the problem is not having enough time. I think it\'s that most Americans are lazy.

How about those Americans who work long and hard every day of the week, every week of the year?  Some people aren\'t lazy and don\'t need to find any type of spirituality to be happy.  Well, then again, everyone\'s different in how they handle their time and activities.

Who do you respect and look up to more, your father, or your grandpa? I know this answer will vary from person to person, but I would think that in most cases people look up to their father more

That\'s true.  But we also look up to our grandfathers as well as our fathers.  Maybe not as much, but there is still some admiration and respect.  Why don\'t Christians do the same?  Give some admiration and respect to the god of God?

Yes, my church believes that. I even wrote it in my last post (you must have just not noticed it). Read the first bulleted section again.

You mean the part where you mentioned the three kingdoms?  You said, "where we can progress and become greater beings."  I immediately thought angels, but not gods.

both Adam and Eve are blamed, not only Eve like you may think.

Some churchs believe that women should be blamed for human damnation though, that they\'re the root of all evil.  In history, women were blamed and that\'s why they were subordinated; to keep them from doing more harm to mankind.  That\'s why we can see in historical literature and pre-80\'s movies that men saw women as "weak," due to the image of Eve\'s temptation.  From what I understand, there hasn\'t been any female pope because women can\'t reach the level of holiness as men.
That was just one example.  What about the one who cut off Samson\'s hair?  Delilah, was it?  She was portrayed pretty badly.  And wasn\'t Mary Magdalen (sp?) a prostitute?  From what I remember, there are more women evil-doers in the Bible than there are good-doers.  The only ones who are good, that I can think of are Esther, Sarah, and of course the Virgin Mary.

Because that would take away their free will. Free will is very important to God. In fact, because God gave us free will is the reason we needed Jesus Christ to make it back to heaven (because we can choose to sin). If we didn\'t have free will, this world would be completely different. (we would be drones, obeying every command given to us.)

That\'s a good point.
I have a question about this free will topic.  Let\'s say that there is a person who lost his faith.  He feels there wouldn\'t be a point in going to church anymore when he doesn\'t even believe what is being preached.  However, he feels that if he left the church, the other church members (who are his family and friends) will look differently of him, and possibly look down on him.  As we know, humans are social creatures.  For this guy to loose the friendship he has with the church members would be devistating.  So wouldn\'t he be trapped in going to church even if he does have free will?

Does the family have to listen to the boy read the whole old testiment?! Or does the boy just read a part of it?

You know, I don\'t know if he has to read the whole thing or paraphrase it.  You\'re going to have to find someone who\'s Jewish and ask him/her.  Sorry I couldn\'t answer your question.  If I find out, I\'ll be sure to tell you.

Originally posted by IronFist
Rya:




Clowd:

  My religion is not based off of the Bible.  The Bible does support my religion though.  We can believe that God has a physical body even if that docterine is not found in the Bible.

And here\'s a question for you:  Where in the Bible does it say that God "was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct"?  Yeah, that\'s what I thought.  It doesn\'t.    That is just one of the many interpretations that have come from man, not from God himself.

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Rya:


I agree with Clowd on this one.  Jesus was the one who created the earth.  I believe that he was a spirit at the time though (I\'m not sure what Clowd believes).  Jesus was given authority over this world because both God and Jesus knew that this world would be where Christ would be crucified.  I believe that God has created many many worlds, but this world is the only one that Jesus himself created.

In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)  Jesus Christ is "the Word".  He was with God the Father.  And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.

Before replying I want to quote Jesus "Happy are those who do not see and yet believe."

See,  my religion is based on the bible.  If its not in the Bible,  then we don\'t teach it because it would be the word of men.

I believe God created Jesus,  who was the first of all creation.  Then through Jesus God created the Universe.

The reason why Jesus was crucified was to pay a ransom to God.  You see the wages sin pays is death.  So when Adam and Even sinned they passed down sin to us all.  So since the wages sin pays is death,  we are all doomed to die.  The only way to counter this is for a perfect sacrifice = Jesus

As for Jesus having a human body how was he able to walk through walls with a material body?

Iron fist in your bible it says the word was God with a capital G?  Which translation is this?

Originally posted by Rya

Physical properties and the motion of physical objects...example being...?

Anything could be an example, but some obvious ones would be the sun rising and falling in the sky, the seasons changing, and the aging of people.

In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) Jesus Christ is "the Word". He was with God the Father. And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.

So does this quote mean that it\'s rewriting Genesis 1:1-31?
How do you know that "the Word" isn\'t God\'s thoughts?  What he wants man to know?  And then he decided to embody his thoughts into Jesus?
And if you look at the quote...to a person who hasn\'t delved into studying the Bible, it seems to say that Jesus came before God.  Shouldn\'t God be mentioned first and the "the Word?"

This thread is evidence of one thing sure enough. The world would be sooo much better without religion.

agreed.

Originally posted by shockwaves


Anything could be an example, but some obvious ones would be the sun rising and falling in the sky, the seasons changing, and the aging of people.

The rising and setting of the sun can be measure by the rotation the earth made, which is a measurement of distance.  The seasons changing can be measure by the angle of the earth\'s tilt towards the sun (23.3 degrees, I think) and the location of where the season\'s being experienced.  The aging of people is measured by the amount of white blood cell count in the body\'s system and deterioration of cells and the lack of melanin contained in the body.

Originally posted by luckee
This thread is evidence of one thing sure enough. The world would be sooo much better without religion.

without false religion, yes

All the blood spilt on Earth has been because of religion

And what are those measurements?  The angle of the earth towards the sun is simply a two dimensional measurement.  Time is no different, it just deals with different dimensions.  In any given dimension, an object can move either forward or backward.  There are three dimensions that we can perceive that deal with physical movement (the x, y, and z axes), and an object can move along each indefinitely.  Time is the same way, it is just in a different dimension, and one that is required for you to make any of the measurements I specified.

Sure, you can measure the angle of the earth to the sun, but that is just a measurement.  It says nothing of change.  However, when you start taking different measurements at different times, you see change.  It is like a line, moving through two dimensional space.  If you look at it at only one value, you can take a measurement, but you can\'t see where the line is moving.  If you take multiple measurements, varying the values in both dimensions, you see change.  Time is no different for length or width, or depth.  We just perceive it differently.  Once we figure out how things react in the other three dimensions, with changes in this fourth dimension, we can predict how things will change with respect to time.  That way, we can predict things like the changing of seasons of the rising and setting of the sun, and when they will occur with respect to this value that we have named time.

Originally posted by Clowd
All the blood spilt on Earth has been because of religion

All of it?  Yeah, right.  I suppose when someone kills a man that he finds sleeping with his wife, that would be because of religion.  Blood isn\'t spilt because of religion, it is spilt because of anger.  It just happens that religion is a major cause of anger, at times.