Is the U.S. beginning to fall?

Originally posted by Titan


The war against terror isn\'t a big war. We are fighting Al Quada and they are pretty much wiped up. The war in Operation Desert Storm lasted only a couple months. It started and ended in like 1990 or 1991, who needs dates, my point is the same. We don\'t even have 5% of our forces in the middle east right now. Besides, we have Britain on our side, hell, they are in the gulf right now. If we used all our military might in the middle east or this war against terror, it will be over in a matter of months. I think America will never go down.

 
A country can fall from within... does not take a lot... maybe another 100 or so years of poverty and the poor will rise to conquer the select few that are rich and powerful?

Kind of reminds me of Czar Nicholas II of Russia, the guy was so out of touch that in the end his own people got rid of him.

Same can happen to any country... you never know.

Originally posted by Titan
The war against terror isn\'t a big war. We are fighting Al Quada and they are pretty much wiped up. The war in Operation Desert Storm lasted only a couple months. It started and ended in like 1990 or 1991, who needs dates, my point is the same. We don\'t even have 5% of our forces in the middle east right now. Besides, we have Britain on our side, hell, they are in the gulf right now. If we used all our military might in the middle east or this war against terror, it will be over in a matter of months.

This may be the case with Iraq, but what happens next time we go into a full scale war against someone that can actually fight back? You fail to realize that the US is NOT invincible and they are suffering from many of the factors that brought down the previous world powers.

Originally posted by Titan
I think America will never go down.

Many groups and organizations are banking on the fact that so many US citizens feel this way. When the time comes no one will expect it. Just like 9/11, The American Revolution, and the French Revolution the powers that be overestimate their power and influence.

Think about it. If their were a REAL revolution in the US against our government and power structure do you think the majority of americans would side with the fat cats or the people? Do you know how many BIG countries would actually support revolution in the US(whether overt  or covertly)? China and Russia are two that come to mind. Who helped the US when we were first revolting against Britain? France. Why? Because they had the most to gain from the defeat of the British Empire. Now if there was a revolt IN america, how many countries do you think stand to gain if the American empire falls? A lot more than you may think.

BTW, Titan, tell me why you think the American Empire will never go down?

[Titan]

American Empire? Last I looked, we were a country.

Think about it. If their were a REAL revolution in the US against our government and power structure do you think the majority of americans would side with the fat cats or the people? Do you know how many BIG countries would actually support revolution in the US(whether overt or covertly)? China and Russia are two that come to mind. Who helped the US when we were first revolting against Britain? France. Why? Because they had the most to gain from the defeat of the British Empire. Now if there was a revolt IN america, how many countries do you think stand to gain if the American empire falls? A lot more than you may think.

There will never be a revolt in the United States. The reason there was the American Civil war was because the south made their own country and the Union was doing the humanitarian thing by fighting to free the slaves. The French Revolution started becuase the people were neglected. Are people being neglected here? No. They also rebelled because conditions were terrible. Are conditions bad here? No. We have something called freedom and most countries that aren\'t "free" have had rebellions. That\'s why I think America will never go down. We have the strongest military in the world and we have more freedoms than any other country and more opportunities than any other. The only way that we would go down is if we were to change the government and screw up badly. That or the end of the world. I\'d fight for this country in any war.

Originally posted by Titan
American Empire? Last I looked, we were a country.

The US is an imperialist empire just like Rome and Britain. In future history books we will be known as the American Empire.

Originally posted by Titan
There will never be a revolt in the United States. The reason there was the American Civil war was because the south made their own country and the Union was doing the humanitarian thing by fighting to free the slaves.

The Civil War was more about Lincoln trying to keep the country intact than it was about freeing slaves. Quote from Snopes:

Although Lincoln was personally opposed to slavery, his primary concern with the issue was how its divisiveness affected the United States, not the liberation of the Black man. Had the Union been able to survive half slave and half free without erupting into war, Lincoln\'s stated position was that he would have allowed the institution of slavery to remain intact and die a slow death. And whatever Lincoln\'s personal feelings about the equality of Blacks, he didn\'t espouse support for their "civil rights" because he believed that white society would never accept them as equals. Lincoln\'s only real expression of "civil rights" was his support for the idea of relocating free Blacks to Liberia so they could live apart from whites in a separate society. Even Lincoln\'s Emancipation Proclamation was issued as an exigency of war, not as measure intended to permanently end slavery in the USA, and constitutional amendments ending slavery and guaranteeing citizens of all races the right to vote were not enacted until after Lincoln\'s death.

Originally posted by Titan
The French Revolution started becuase the people were neglected. Are people being neglected here? No. They also rebelled because conditions were terrible. Are conditions bad here? No. We have something called freedom and most countries that aren\'t "free" have had rebellions. That\'s why I think America will never go down.

Have you been to some of the areas of disgusting third world poverty in the US? There are places where the average residential area looks like shanty town in South Africa. I\'m not talking about blacks either. There are millions of extremely poor whites, blacks and latinos in the US. In the US we have freedom(to an extent). We have more freedoms than some countries but for the most part what we can say and do is limited by government. The television channels and news publications are all regulated by gatekeepers who filter what can and can\'t be heard. Exactly how "free" are we?

Originally posted by Titan
We have the strongest military in the world and we have more freedoms than any other country and more opportunities than any other. The only way that we would go down is if we were to change the government and screw up badly. That or the end of the world. I\'d fight for this country in any war.

The strongest military in the world does not have much effect when it is spread thin all over the world(a trait of an imperialist nation). Like I said before, the US has their hands in WAY too many things. With troops on every major continent, the sun never sets on the American empire. If a conflict breaks out in Asia, US troops can be mobilized and fighting within 12 hours. What happens if conflict breaks out in Asia and the Middle East? What about Asia, the Middle East, South America, and Washington DC?

Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Hell, it\'s been failing for years and out current President only makes things worse . Focus a war on terrorism - fine. Start another with Iraq. We don\'t need two goin\' at once and we don\'t need any in general.
To hell with Bush.

Then tell us what he should do?

No matter what Bush, or any president for that matter would do, there will always be those certain people that will always criticize. Nothing satisfies them.

Originally posted by Bozco


Then tell us what he should do?

Leave Iraq alone.

Man, America makes me sick.  It\'s all about fear, that\'s how you get the nation to support you.  The economy is failing, corporate scandals are everywhere, America on the home front is sinking day by day, but as long as we give the people a war, a bad guy to fear, all of this gets strangely overlooked.  That\'s all this country is about: fear.  It\'s not like this in otehr nations you know.  In other nations, you don\'t hear "If we don\'t bomb this country, they might bomb us".  You don\'t turn on the news, and only hear "This man was shot" or "What you don\'t know could be killing you".  

Does it sicken anyone else that the events of 9/11 really have turned out to be a true gift to Bush?  Without them, we wouldn\'t have a war to be fighting (well, he might have made one anyway), and people would actually be able to open their eyes, and see how downhill things within this nation are going.  More and more money is being taken out of things like social welfare programs and education, and given to the military instead.  Corporate Scandals are being discovered everywhere, and that\'s just what\'s being discovered.  Our economy is plumetting, but that\'s not what we\'re going to focus on.  Instead, we are going to spend more money on building more bombs and planes that we can send far away, to Iraq, to bomb and kill, not Saddam, but innocent citizens, far more of them than were killed here on 9/11.  Tell me, what did those people do to deserve such an attack?  

America is a perfect example of humanity at its worst.  We bomb other nations, and don\'t even care.  We are the most over weight population, the most violent population, and yet the most powerful one at the same time.  Are we an imperialist nation?  You better believe it.  We just aren\'t as obvious as imperialist nations once were.  We control other nations with money.  We control their economies, and thus control them.  We control other nations by putting leaders in charge that we want.  We have overthrown so many democratically elected leaders in order to put dictators that we like better in control, it\'s sick.  Are we imperialists?  Hell yeah.  Do the American people see it that way though?  No.  They don\'t, because it isn\'t presented to us that way.  Because the news stations would rather spend 20 minutes on the story of a little boy who brought a gun into school, on the other end of the nation, rather than tell us how many people we killed in bombings, or what governments we are working to overthrow, or what other people, around the world, think of these actions.  And until that changes, we won\'t change either.

And yeah, I\'ll criticize any president we have.  Afterall, I don\'t think we\'ve had one that has been close to good in the last 50 plus years.

[Titan]

Have you been to some of the areas of disgusting third world poverty in the US? There are places where the average residential area looks like shanty town in South Africa. I\'m not talking about blacks either. There are millions of extremely poor whites, blacks and latinos in the US.

So your saying that these poor people are going to rebel because they are poor? Its not the government\'s fault that they are poor. Its not the government\'s fault that the bread bringer of the family leaves his wife and kids with no money. Its not the governments fault that gangs are in the streets. Certain cities like DC are hell holes ruled by gangs. The federal government took it over and is governing it now and are starting to turn DC around. I doubt that there will ever be an uprising. There has to be a nationwide crisis like the government is way too currupt (not that I\'m saying its not currupt) or democracy is toppled.

The US is an imperialist empire just like Rome and Britain. In future history books we will be known as the American Empire.

I can guarentee this will not happen. We aren\'t imperialist, nor do we take land by force. Do you even know what an empire is? We were able to topple the Afghan government and yet we gave it back. We took over countries throughout the world during WWII and yet we gave it back to the people of the countries. How are we going to be an empire if we give back the countries to its people. You are so wrong by saying America is an empire.

Originally posted by Titan

So your saying that these poor people are going to rebel because they are poor? Its not the government\'s fault that they are poor. Its not the government\'s fault that the bread bringer of the family leaves his wife and kids with no money. Its not the governments fault that gangs are in the streets. Certain cities like DC are hell holes ruled by gangs. The federal government took it over and is governing it now and are starting to turn DC around. I doubt that there will ever be an uprising. There has to be a nationwide crisis like the government is way too currupt (not that I\'m saying its not currupt) or democracy is toppled.


Some people are poor maybe because they make stupid decisions in life, ... should the government help these lost people? or should they spend a couple billion dollars on a new missile that will kill some people instead? What is more precious? Human life or greed?

How is some poor 50 year old shmuck to blame when his Factory moves to Mexico where people work for 25 Cents an hour??? The guy is 50, and his outlook for finding a decent job to replace the one he lost are almost nil.  Who wants to hire some old guy if they can hire someone fresh from school?

The poor guy gets a job at McDonalds instead, tell me, how much do they pay there? enough to live a comfortable life?

There is no democracy... just smoke and mirrors... how are you free? can you really say what you want? Or will you get black-listed for your views?


I can guarentee this will not happen. We aren\'t imperialist, nor do we take land by force. Do you even know what an empire is? We were able to topple the Afghan government and yet we gave it back. We took over countries throughout the world during WWII and yet we gave it back to the people of the countries. How are we going to be an empire if we give back the countries to its people. You are so wrong by saying America is an empire.

Things evolve, and the old term "Empire" does not apply here, yet when you look at it in another way, America is an empire,...

The strongest entity which leads, and enforces its wishes by any means possible...  Truly when the USA sneezes everyone catches a cold.

Isn\'t an empire supposed to be the Leader of or enforcer of other nations?

[Titan]

Some people are poor maybe because they make stupid decisions in life, ... should the government help these lost people? or should they spend a couple billion dollars on a new missile that will kill some people instead? What is more precious? Human life or greed?

How is some poor 50 year old shmuck to blame when his Factory moves to Mexico where people work for 25 Cents an hour??? The guy is 50, and his outlook for finding a decent job to replace the one he lost are almost nil. Who wants to hire some old guy if they can hire someone fresh from school?

The poor guy gets a job at McDonalds instead, tell me, how much do they pay there? enough to live a comfortable life?

There is no democracy... just smoke and mirrors... how are you free? can you really say what you want? Or will you get black-listed for your views?

I have to agree with you there. The government does keep putting money in the military power and not on humanitarian work except in Somalia, Afghanistan and other third world countries. We aren\'t totally free. There are somethings we can and can\'t do. I mean we can technically run up to the president and call him a shmuck and they can\'t do anything but there are some things like spreading rumors that can screw you over.

Originally posted by Titan
So your saying that these poor people are going to rebel because they are poor? Its not the government\'s fault that they are poor. Its not the government\'s fault that the bread bringer of the family leaves his wife and kids with no money. Its not the governments fault that gangs are in the streets. Certain cities like DC are hell holes ruled by gangs. The federal government took it over and is governing it now and are starting to turn DC around. I doubt that there will ever be an uprising. There has to be a nationwide crisis like the government is way too currupt (not that I\'m saying its not currupt) or democracy is toppled.

The government IS way too corrupt. It has been for decades. All I am saying is that there are people that are tired of being treated like second class citizens in their own country and are mobilizing themselves for an eventual war. Take from that what you want.

As for DC, You don\'t even have to look at urban centers(Read black ghettoes). Have you EVER seen some of these small towns and rural cities in the mid-west and south? I won\'t even go into detail but these places ARE horrible and worse than most any place in the world to live.

You really don\'t know what is going on; because from reading your posts I see that you have given into the rosy glasses view of America as the all powerful nation(with very few flaws) that will never fall. If you read up on even a LITTLE history you would know that we are coming into the EXACT SAME situation that most other countries were in when they began to fall.

Originally posted by Titan
I can guarentee this will not happen. We aren\'t imperialist, nor do we take land by force. Do you even know what an empire is? We were able to topple the Afghan government and yet we gave it back. We took over countries throughout the world during WWII and yet we gave it back to the people of the countries. How are we going to be an empire if we give back the countries to its people. You are so wrong by saying America is an empire.

im·pe·ri·al·ism
1. The policy of extending a nation\'s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

So what were you saying about the US not being imperialist? Do we not have economic and political hegemony(influence) over MANY other countries besides our own?

BTW, Why did you skip over what I said about the civil war and freedom in america?

[Titan]

As for DC, You don\'t even have to look at urban centers(Read black ghettoes). Have you EVER seen some of these small towns and rural cities in the mid-west and south? I won\'t even go into detail but these places ARE horrible and worse than most any place in the world to live.

I\'m just saying that its the local government\'s fault, not the federal government. If there\'s a revolt, there will be a riot in the city. But that\'s not really a revolution.

The government IS way too corrupt. It has been for decades. All I am saying is that there are people that are tired of being treated like second class citizens in their own country and are mobilizing themselves for an eventual war. Take from that what you want.

I\'ll admit that it is corupt, but its not as corrupt as you really think. You are only looking at the instances of the past but those that are corrupt (Nixon for example) are punished for what they did, if they are caught. There are only a few places in this country where people are treated like second class citizens but I can\'t even recall a time that people were treated like second class citizens (if you can post a link to a news article of an actual time, go ahead). There are usually riots but nothing more, like in LA. But those are started by again, the local government.

1. The policy of extending a nation\'s authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

Yeah, we are really taking other countries by force. We are only taking over the world now :rolleyes:

BTW, Why did you skip over what I said about the civil war and freedom in america?

I said that they attacked the south because of ONE of the reasons. I never said that was the only reason the civil war began. There were many other things that sparked the civil war. Basically, the Confederate States of America secceded from the Union and started their own country. Yes, I\'ll agree with that. But they also seceeded because the Union wanted to abolish slavery, so technically, I was correct.

Originally posted by Titan
I\'m just saying that its the local government\'s fault, not the federal government. If there\'s a revolt, there will be a riot in the city. But that\'s not really a revolution.

If the people are organized they will not just riot in their city they will revolt against their city.

Originally posted by Titan
I\'ll admit that it is corupt, but its not as corrupt as you really think. You are only looking at the instances of the past but those that are corrupt (Nixon for example) are punished for what they did, if they are caught. There are only a few places in this country where people are treated like second class citizens but I can\'t even recall a time that people were treated like second class citizens (if you can post a link to a news article of an actual time, go ahead). There are usually riots but nothing more, like in LA. But those are started by again, the local government.

I am not looking at any particular instance of corruption in the government. Our government is made up of professional politicians. Have you ever seen a professional anything care more about the trade than the money? Maybe when the money is not much to begin with; but we are not talking about minimum wage here. Like they say, money talks. Do you know of any poor or struggling politicians? I didn\'t think so.

You can NOT recall a time when people were treated like second class citizens? Please clarify that statement for me.

Riots are not started by local government. They are a manifestation of the anger of a group of people. I can not think of the last time there was a riot over something that local government did.

Originally posted by Titan
Yeah, we are really taking other countries by force. We are only taking over the world now :rolleyes:

Did you even read the definition? It says that imperialism is also shown in economic or political control over another nation. You can not truthfully say that the US does not have economic and/or political control over MANY nations besides our own.

Originally posted by Titan
I said that they attacked the south because of ONE of the reasons. I never said that was the only reason the civil war began. There were many other things that sparked the civil war. Basically, the Confederate States of America secceded from the Union and started their own country. Yes, I\'ll agree with that. But they also seceeded because the Union wanted to abolish slavery, so technically, I was correct.

You said that they attacked the south partially over slavery. I said that it was not over slavery. There were some politicians in the Union that were against slavery just like there were others who were for it. The union really was more concerned about keeping the country together than it was about slavery. They felt that slavery would have eventually died out anyway.

Originally posted by Titan
we have more freedoms than any other country and more opportunities than any other.

A bit naive are we oh young one? First, there\'s no such thing as freedoms. Secondly, I find it ironic how the US is one of the most agressive countries when it comes to intelligence organs and gathering of information [and the (ab)use hereof] - look up the Echelon project. Oh, and an organ like the CIA doesn\'t exactly have a track record of being nice. You\'re also the only modern country I can think of that actually practices death sentence. And in what western country do you think you\'d be more at risk for being sued when practicing that nice \'freedom\' of yours? Don\'t kid yourself. Nowadays there are plenty of countries that offers the same, or better, level of freedom than the US. Lol, and everything from McDonald\'s drinks to sidemirrors have to have a warning on it. Sad.

Note to others: This isn\'t a post to bash on the US; I\'ve nothing against North America. I\'d just like a better perspective in some of the statements being thrown around by some people.

[Titan]

You can NOT recall a time when people were treated like second class citizens? Please clarify that statement for me.

I don\'t even know of a time where the government treated people like second class citizens. Thats all I\'m saying. Do you know of a time?

Did you even read the definition? It says that imperialism is also shown in economic or political control over another nation. You can not truthfully say that the US does not have economic and/or political control over MANY nations besides our own.

We are part of a global trade organization. I find it funny that most our stuff is made in other countries. Hell, our flags are made in China. I have one that is shotty work and my grandma gave it to me not long after 9/11 and I think it says Made In China on it. What countries do we control over the economy? I\'m really wondering.

You said that they attacked the south partially over slavery. I said that it was not over slavery. There were some politicians in the Union that were against slavery just like there were others who were for it. The union really was more concerned about keeping the country together than it was about slavery. They felt that slavery would have eventually died out anyway.

I never said that I disagreed with this because I do agree with it.

Gohan, I never said that the US was a utopia. There are its share of power and money hungry politicians. Personally, I feel that government positions should be given to the ones who have the most money. Especially the president. The winner is the one usually with the most money put into their campaign. I mean, middle class citizens like me should be able to run with confidence.