Pro-U.S. European Letter

LOL, those 8 countries ain\'t Europe. I mean, Germany, France, Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) and so on, intentionally did NOT sign that letter. If those countries would
be on that list, THEN it would be the voice of Europe. Hell those 8 countries didn\'t even inform the chairman-country of the European Union, Greece :o  They were probably affraid the rest of Europe wouldn\'t back them up.  
I myself live in the Netherlands. Majority of Dutch ppl are AGAINST war, even stronger anti war feelings rise in France and Germany. Right now I\'m against war too.
I think Bundeskanzler Schroder put it right when he said he would do everything he could to keep a non-force resolving policy.
Especially with keeping his countries\' history in mind he\'s making the right decision.
Why did Bush resolve the N-Korea nuclear item with a velvet soft
approach and almost declare war against Iraq (with still NO hard evidence) ? :rolleyes:  Oil , anyone ? Europe isn\'t anti-USA, it\'s just anti war. It would be downright unfair to call Europe anti American. The \'You\'re either with us, or against us\' by Bush approach is absurd

The end result is we are going to do what we deem necessary to deal with the situation.

Ace

[CHIZZY]

feh..... we could kick their asses without europe. It\'s just nice to know that there are 8 countries in europe who aren\'t complete scumbag cowards.

This is true and that is one of the reasons I think France and Germany are being ass-wipes.

We know there is no one on this earth that is willing to do what has to be done, and that no other country is going to protect us and the rest of the world.

No offense, but by saying it\'s all about oil is looking at this situation in a very simplistic way.

Just my opinion.

Ace

Originally posted by Knotter8
LOL, those 8 countries ain\'t Europe. I mean, Germany, France, Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) and so on, intentionally did NOT sign that letter. If those countries would
be on that list, THEN it would be the voice of Europe. Hell those 8 countries didn\'t even inform the chairman-country of the European Union, Greece :o  They were probably affraid the rest of Europe wouldn\'t back them up.  
I myself live in the Netherlands. Majority of Dutch ppl are AGAINST war, even stronger anti war feelings rise in France and Germany. Right now I\'m against war too.
I think Bundeskanzler Schroder put it right when he said he would do everything he could to keep a non-force resolving policy.
Especially with keeping his countries\' history in mind he\'s making the right decision.
Why did Bush resolve the N-Korea nuclear item with a velvet soft
approach and almost declare war against Iraq (with still NO hard evidence) ? :rolleyes:  Oil , anyone ? Europe isn\'t anti-USA, it\'s just anti war. It would be downright unfair to call Europe anti American. The \'You\'re either with us, or against us\' by Bush approach is absurd

This is one time I feel I am going to go off on someone... so here it goes... The Dutch :rolleyes: have such a twisted view of history and politics.  You show no gratitude towards a country that liberated you when you were occupied by one of the most oppressive regimes in history and afterwards this same country protected your country from being under another oppressive regime (ie. the Soviet Union).  

Speaking of oil, the reason the French and the Germans are so against War, is due to THEIR oil interests.  Germany doesn\'t have a veto power as neither does Belgium, Luxemburg (does that even count as a country  :rolleyes: ? and Holland).  France only wants to feel important because in reality they aren\'t.  

As for Holland, you live in a Socialist country that lets their citizens use drugs in public places, condones prostitution and IMHO has one of the dirtiest cities in the whole of Europe besides Venice.  

You can bank on this Knotter... The US will act with or without "allies" and its foreign policy will NOT be dictated by France, Germany or Holland.

Now back to your regular programming...

Originally posted by project86



As for you ooseven, when the US enters into war with the Iraqis, we will not stop at just the tyrannical reign of Saddam, we will continue the war on terrorism and we will continue to see them on the run. We will liberate these countries. How do I know this? I know it because there is an old saying that goes “history repeats itself”. Again there is someone in the world that is under the threat of a homicidal dictator and the States will not allow this to happen. Every man, woman and child deserve to live a free people.

The is that the situation in Iraq is worse that it was in Afghanistan, here we have had over 12 years of UN Sanctions and US & UK bombing.

This has left the country in a perpetual state of collapse where the ordinary people are malnourished and anaemic (most of the population have been living under lass than basic conditions.)  

This will only complicate the situation if a full salce attack on the country takes place, as with most examples in history.. Diseased and mass civilian evacuation all ways follow a war of this magnitude.  

And with Best intentions aside the Iraq people will only suffer more through the all out offensive due to the nature of the conflict

I believe the plan is to cut off all routes of possible escape for combatants (like bombing bridges and cutting potential sources of escape for refuges.

Now remember the Figures quoted by the Red Cross, these are just projections but with a population of over 10 million, it’s optimistic at best.

This plan for an all out offensive might seam like a quicker victory but it will not be easier for the Iraqi people as many of them will die through the hands of disease/ starvation etc than by Saddam or Collateral damage.

Also Ace please think before you use the “by any means” this so called are for freedom won’t benefit the people that rreally need it.. The Iraqi people as most of them will be long dead before they can truely be free.

Remember Saddam like Bin Laden is a Monster of our own creation.

Us .. i.e. the West, made Saddam, in fact we sold him most of his weapons and trained a large portion of his elite republican guard.

Bin Laden = trained and Equipped by the CIA to fight the Russians

Saddam = Supported and equipped by a vast majority of influential powers (US/UK/France/Germany/Russia /China) through the 80’s (Intel supplyed to him by the CIA)

Moral of the story

Don’t train and support potential monsters, because one day they come back to bite us on the respective Ass

OK, you say we created these monsters. Well, what are we supposed to do now? Nothing just to spite ourselves? Do we keep taking a beating so the rest of the world can be happy? Sorry, it does not work that way.

I believe the Iraqi people will benefit the most from us extracting that sorry excuse of a human being Saddam.

Ace

[GmanJoe]

I haven\'t read all the responses thoroughly but I\'ll make my response short and to the point :

Saddam MUST be taken out. Iraqi people may seem all pro-Saddam on the streets but many of them do it out of fear of being labelled as a traitor if they show no support for Saddam.

Just like how the US and Britain and Australia (and others who I\'ve forgotten - like the Canadians ) attacked the Talibans, in doing so, we were all utterly surprised at the suffering of the Afghan women under the abusive control of the Talibans. Once Saddam is taken out, you will hear about the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam\'s rule.

The first Weapons Inspections in the mid 90\'s found several hudreds of gallons of anthrax in Iraq. The ones that were found were destroyed. There were more but the Iraqi officials kept playing the Inspectors as fools and they played the foolish role perfectly. Partly due to the fact that Clinton did not use force to back up the inspectors.

Then Saddam expelled all the inspectors. Clinton did nothing.

You think Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction? 100 inspectors looking for weapons in a country the size of California. Come on. It\'s not that hard to disassemble those weapons and hide them.

Whether you like it or not, Saddam must be taken out. Don\'t like it? Go to Iraq and protest. Please.

Originally posted by Ace
OK, you say we created these monsters. Well, what are we supposed to do now? Nothing just to spite ourselves? Do we keep taking a beating so the rest of the world can be happy? Sorry, it does not work that way.

I believe the Iraqi people will benefit the most from us extracting that sorry excuse of a human being Saddam.

Ace

we could start to take some Goddamn responsibility for our actions.

Like prosecuting intelligence agents/ arms deals / and even government departments both in the US and UK who supported these B@stards.

Everyone responsible for the support and supply to these people knew fine and well who and what they where. The only difference was that back in the 80’s we conveniently forgot that they were monsters because it suited US & UK policys or intrest.

Example the chemical weapons sold to Saddam during the Iran Iraq War.
Or

The CIA training & Stinger missiles given to Bin Laden During  the Afghanistan war.      

The simple fact of the matter is that  we both live in two countries which claim to support democracy and to up hold Human rights. BUT if you just happen to live in a Country like Iraq and your leader is although known to be a tyrant, then YOUR life is worth JACKSH!T.

If we are going to attack then we should at least round up the people in the west who supported Saddam with intelligence/ Weapons/ and Money.

Other wise The Gulf War 2 will be the greatest examples of Double standards.

Originally posted by GmanJoe
I haven\'t read all the responses thoroughly but I\'ll make my response short and to the point :

Saddam MUST be taken out. Iraqi people may seem all pro-Saddam on the streets but many of them do it out of fear of being labelled as a traitor if they show no support for Saddam.

Just like how the US and Britain and Australia (and others who I\'ve forgotten - like the Canadians ) attacked the Talibans, in doing so, we were all utterly surprised at the suffering of the Afghan women under the abusive control of the Talibans. Once Saddam is taken out, you will hear about the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam\'s rule.

The first Weapons Inspections in the mid 90\'s found several hudreds of gallons of anthrax in Iraq. The ones that were found were destroyed. There were more but the Iraqi officials kept playing the Inspectors as fools and they played the foolish role perfectly. Partly due to the fact that Clinton did not use force to back up the inspectors.

Then Saddam expelled all the inspectors. Clinton did nothing.

You think Saddam has no weapons of mass destruction? 100 inspectors looking for weapons in a country the size of California. Come on. It\'s not that hard to disassemble those weapons and hide them.

Whether you like it or not, Saddam must be taken out. Don\'t like it? Go to Iraq and protest. Please.

Better yet, go to Iraq and volunteer to be one of his human shields.

Originally posted by GmanJoe
Whether you like it or not, Saddam must be taken out. Don\'t like it? Go to Iraq and protest. Please.

Agreed, but using enough firepower to launch the country into orbit won\'t do much for US & UK reputation.

Remember we are not only trying to fight a war on terrorism, but we are also trying to de-credit the Allegations that the “West” is anti Islam

then if we can do that.. we will be able to remove or atleast reduce Bin Ladins rhetoric.

Remember there are other options open for the removal of Saddam.

and most of them don\'t even involve the level of man power we are committing.

Originally posted by ooseven


we could start to take some Goddamn responsibility for our actions.

Like prosecuting intelligence agents/ arms deals / and even government departments both in the US and UK who supported these B@stards.

Everyone responsible for the support and supply to these people knew fine and well who and what they where. The only difference was that back in the 80’s we conveniently forgot that they were monsters because it suited US & UK policys or intrest.

Example the chemical weapons sold to Saddam during the Iran Iraq War.
Or

The CIA training & Stinger missiles given to Bin Laden During  the Afghanistan war.      

The simple fact of the matter is that  we both live in two countries which claim to support democracy and to up hold Human rights. BUT if you just happen to live in a Country like Iraq and your leader is although known to be a tyrant, then YOUR life is worth JACKSH!T.

If we are going to attack then we should at least round up the people in the west who supported Saddam with intelligence/ Weapons/ and Money.

Other wise The Gulf War 2 will be the greatest examples of Double standards.

Come on ooseven, prosecuting an agency for the policy of the government during that time period?  That is insane.  When the US and the UK gave support to these people, they were fighting a common enemy (ie. Iran or the USSR).  It was a different time with different motives for supporting these people.  

If you really want to go down this path, why not persecute the Germans who actually sold components to Iraq to build weapons of mass destruction.

Originally posted by ooseven


Agreed, but using enough firepower to launch the country into orbit won\'t do much for US & UK reputation.

Remember we are not only trying to fight a war on terrorism, but we are also trying to de-credit the Allegations that the “West” is anti Islam

then if we can do that.. we will be able to remove or atleast reduce Bin Ladins rhetoric.

Remember there are other options open for the removal of Saddam.

and most of them don\'t even involve the level of man power we are committing.

I don\'t see any other options...

Assassination?  good luck finding him (well the real Saddam anyway)

Sanctions?  they don\'t work.

Inspections?  they don\'t work either.

Exile?  He won\'t go.

Originally posted by GigaShadow

If you really want to go down this path, why not persecute the Germans who actually sold components to Iraq to build weapons of mass destruction.

France as well. They sold Iraq a reactor. Luckily Israel flattened the thing before it went on-line.

I just remembered it\'s FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ace

Originally posted by Ace


France as well. They sold Iraq a reactor. Luckily Israel flattened the thing before it went on-line.

I just remembered it\'s FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ace

Oh yeah it is isn\'t it? I am in a lousy mood today...