Americans are cowards

And Stalin was respondsible for millions of his own people deaths as well as submission of uprisings in the other nations he took over due to his paranord behavior, and failed Communist polices. Imagine what he would have done to Japan then.

[SirMystiq]

Originally posted by jiggs


True, however that was not the only motivation. Yes Japan was still trying to hold out and deal as much pain as they could when the US invaded.(they also had secret weapons to use, like jet aircraft) Estimates of perhaps a million American casuaties was forecasted. The island was made into one large booby trap with millions of home gaurd ready to die and take Americans with them. They would have made Vietnam look like a picnic.

Secondly and little broadcasted was the main threat of the Soviet Union invading and taking control of the islands themselves still hurting over the loss of territory during thier earlier war with Japan. The Soviets could have thrown millions into harms way and not regret it at all(Stalin was a butcher). The US would have none of this.

The bombs were more than a tool to get Japan to surrender. They were also used to show the world in paticular Stalin our capabilties and to save American lives. Send a message. The B29 raids did more damage to Japanese cities than both bombs could have ever done.. We basicly bombed them into the stone age and set the largest fire storm ever.

We did not have to use the bombs because Japan had ceased to exist as a real threat. Thier ability to make war was no longer a factor. We could have sent Superfortresses over every day for years and not lost any troops but the Soviets were not going to wait that long. Like Hitler many Japanese would rather see Japan destroyed than givin up. Many did not.

It was either the bombs or massive American casuaties or a communist Japan. Stalin would have been in control of Japan and what would that have done to world peace?

I read that in a website!!

I was going to mention it, but I tought people were going to call me "ignorant" b/c it sounds like a Conspiracy theory...I guess not!!

And IMO, those "Conspiracy throries", still good reason to bomb Japan if it is all true. If Japan was controlled by Russia, and in turn, a communist country, an enemy of the West (not just the US, but the Free Democractic Europe as well) the nation of Japan would never be as great  (economic, cultural, etc.) as it is today.

[SirMystiq]

Originally posted by Simchoy
And IMO, those "Conspiracy throries", still good reason to bomb Japan if it is all true. If Japan was controlled by Russia, and in turn, a communist country, an enemy of the West (not just the US, but the Free Democractic Europe as well) the nation of Japan would never be as great  (economic, cultural, etc.) as it is today.

Yeah, Yeah. I like conspiracy theories, that\'s one of the things that makes this country so damn popular. Ohh yeah, so does freedom.

Can you imagine if Japan was communist, they would of kept the PS2 all to themselves!!! Bastards!!! Let\'s bomb them again!!

[Titan]

IMO, if the Soviets got control of Japan, I don\'t think the people would have been able to handle that. Even if they did, IF it was a Soviet state, they still would have become independent and would struggle like Kazachstan and the Chez (sp) Republic. It was better that the US set up a democracy there and helped to nerture it and get out some years later. Funny how Japan was an empire for thousands of years, then after two atomic bombs, they adopt democracy and they have little to no trouble with it. Maybe the US can do something like that in Iraq or the middle east and make the MidEast very productive. Its something very interesting to think about.

Originally posted by Simchoy
(they tried to make sure that America won\'t get into war by bombing the US. The end result was the opposite.  

I thought I read somewhere they bombed pearl harbor b/c they were pissed off at the US due to sanctions and oceanic blockades.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was indeed the result of American sanctions. The main reason for the attack was steel and oil. The Japan high command knew war with the US would come eventually. They also knew a powerfull pacific US Navy would threaten thier holdings. Primarily the oil fields in Indonesia.

Thier goal was not to defeat the US with one strike but to cripple the Pacific Fleet long enough to solidifiy the grip in the Pacific and Southeast Asia. The Japanese Knew they could not compete with US industry mainly US steel. Without US steel they had no chance to surpass prouduction that the US could acheive and without oil  and steel they were doomed.

They knew they had awakened a sleeping giant.

Originally posted by Simchoy
Whoa. The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is amazing. I don\'t feel like responding to every reply here since, I\'d be here all day.

First, let me just say that America wasn\'t perfect. I know America did a lot of wrong things (forcing Indians off their land, slavery, etc.). However, that was a long time ago. And CERTAINLY, nothing to do with what is happening now, or the people living today.

Not to mention, slavery was a worldwide practiced (America didn\'t "invade" a nation and enslaved the people, Americans [as well as the British, France, and other nations] bought their slaves from African), and in fact, is still going on today in certain parts of Africa. This isn\'t solely an "American" phenomina.

And again, NONE of this deals with the current people no matter what Al Sharpton or a Jesse Jackson says.

I agree that they have nothing to do with whats going on today. I just don\'t like that people try to take the moral high ground when it comes to terrorism and the war in Iraq. Saddam is an evil man and needs to be removed. Still, everything that everyone denounces Hussein for has been done, to an extent, at one time or another by the US.

Originally posted by Simchoy First, the definition of terrorism according to Merriam-Webster Online...
Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: \'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist  /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic  /"ter-&r-\'is-tik/ adjective
Now, you can argue
I can see where you may have gotten this idea that bombing Japan was "terrorism". But if you are going to go that far, then wouldn\'t Pearl Harbor be terrorism as well (they tried to make sure that America won\'t get into war by bombing the US. The end result was the opposite. But wasn\'t that the point of Pearl Harbor)? Since you say that this isn\'t terrorism, then what makes what we did in Japan terrorism?

Also, we WERE in a state of war with Japan. Japan refused to surrender even AFTER the first bomb was dropped. It wasn\'t until the second bomb did Japan realize that it wasn\'t a one time thing and the threat of total annilation was real.

Also, there is an arguement number of people who died by bombing of conventional weapons, which the US would\'ve used if it didn\'t use nuclear weapons, would\'ve been WORSE for the Japanese then the two nukes used in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 100,000 people alone died in the Tokyo raid. If we had ground troops as well as firebombing, not only will it have put US troops at risk, but so are many more Japanese who, due to their pride and stubborn behavior, were unwilling to surrounder even though for all intent and purpose, the war was over. Now, whether or not the bombs were the best best is unknown since we don\'t know what would\'ve happen afterwards.

Its nice that we now can debate it now. But try to put yourself in President Truman shoes and see how easy that question is.

The fact that we deliberately attacked large civilian cities, with the most powerful weapon at the time, to scare them into submission was terrorism by definition. Japan wasn\'t trying to scare us during Pearl Harbor. They were declaring war. Still thats how I see it. I can also see how you and others would look at it as terrorism, though. We\'ll just have to let that one go.

Originally posted by SimchoyAlso, we didn\'t stay in Japan did we? We left after we help rebuild the nation. Now, Japan is one of the greatest nations in the world. One less point for Imperialism.

We didn\'t just help them rebuild. We fashioned them in our own image. Take a look at their government structure and their "constitution".

Japan, right now, is one of the strongest nations in the world(economically). Yet, they don\'t really have any "power" on the global scale. I don\'t feel like getting into the whole "imperialism" thing though. The people in this thread already think I\'m a pinko liberal. I don\'t want to push them over the edge.

Originally posted by Simchoy Oh, and attacking civilians, you tell this to the French, the Germans, the British, the Russians, and any other nation involved during WWII about attacking civilians, and you will get your ass kicked. I don\'t see the Nazis caring about civilian targets. Heck, even the Japanese didn\'t care about civilian targets during WWII. People seem to forget, war is hell. People die. Yes, civilian deaths is horrible. But for evil dictators, they don\'t care.

Again, I\'m not saying that NO ONE else has ever killed civilians. I\'m just pointing out that RARELY do nations deliberately attack civilians and I\'m trying to bring attention(however misplaced it is) to some of the US\' past transgressions.

Originally posted by Simchoy And this is talking about a 50 year war. In fact, many of your precious laws came after WWII when it comes to warfare, in the attempt to fight a "civilized" war if there is such a thing. Since then, especially after that failure Vietnam, America has tried to limit civilian causilties in any war that we get involved. IF we go into Iraq, you actually think the US will carpet bomb villiages? :rolleyes:

I know that the laws are somewhat recent laws. What I was trying to show was that many of the things that the US is denouncing Iraq for(breaking of internation treaties/law, crimes against humanity) are also things in our past. I know that the US is not going to go out and bomb civilians(purposely). I think you are misinterpreting my intentions in this thread.

Originally posted by Simchoy There are stories of Iraqis torturing POWs. Funny. Where was the outrage over their suffering (especially since, isn\'t Iraq violating the Geneva Convention here)? And Iraq using chemical weapons against its own people, isn\'t that illegal too? How come the World Court hasn\'t charged Saddam with crimes against humanity?

I know you don\'t think that POW\'s captured by the US are treated as well as your average inmate, do you? I have heard stories. Nothing as bad as what is probably going on in Iraq, still far from a walk in the park.


I agree, for the most part, with what you are saying. Still, I think either you are taking some of the things I said out of context or I didn\'t explain myself correctly.

Originally posted by Ace
So it\'s fair to say that you are ashamed to be an American.

Ace

I don\'t think you were speaking to me; but I\'ll answer anyway. I am not at all ashamed to be an American. I just think that some people take their American pride to far, almost to the point of drowning out anything negative.

Originally posted by Gohan
The people in this thread already think I\'m a pinko liberal. I don\'t want to push them over the edge.

It wasn\'t just here in this thread that I figured you for a pinko...

I just think that some people take their American pride to far, almost to the point of drowning out anything negative.

Funny, I see it in reverse. I see a lot of "America deserved 9/11" and I see and hear people protesting saying our president is more of a threat than the leader of Iraq. I can\'t believe there are some people who come close to apologizing for Saddam.  It\'s very disturbing.

I am not blind to what we have done in the past, but I am nervous about what we are teaching in our schools. We seem to be teaching HATE AMERICA FIRST.

Ace

[SirMystiq]

Ok, that\'s it.

First off, if Saddam killed his own people. LET HIM DAMN IT!!
It\'s none of our business. If the people let him get away with such thing, they ohh well. The US can\'t stop everysingle war, b/c if they do, they get into a war themselves. Iraq wants to blow up Iran? Let them fight, if they really wanna fight.

What\'s up with you and schools. Schools teach us what the Gov. tells them to teach us. If you\'re saying the government tells the people to teach us to hate america, then who\'s fault is it?

It\'s like trying to split up a fight between to guys with knives, in the end you get stabbed yourself. To me GWB wants to go out a star. He wants to go down in history as the man that dethroned saddam. I can\'t blame him. Everyone wants to go out big. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Osama is still alive, and they\'re not taking NK threats any seriously. Just like they didn\'t take the 9/11 threats that seriously, until california is blown out the map, then they\'ll start to worry.


One more thing, they blow up Japan, kill a bunch of people, destroyed their buildings..................then we helped them rebuild the country???

The Iraq question is getting tiresome. Iraq is on the top of th list because of terrorism and the devastation of 9/11. We can disagree if it is true or not but that\'s why we are going to send Saddam off with a bang.

The schools are a liberal breeding ground. Schools are obviously not being told what to teach by evidence of the pablum being spewed here.

Gotta go.

More later.

Ace

[SirMystiq]

You know that\'s the only problem. You people are so extremely confident, ok I am too. But if that man really does have weapons of mass destruction, if there is a war, then sure as hell he is going to use them against the US soldiers. I don\'t really care about why or how. What bothers me is the super confidence of the US supremacy(sp?) that bothers me.

the US military is THE force on the planet

this cannot be contested or questioned

now what they would resort to, to maintain this, is what scares me

Iraq also has the most weapons and supports terrorism.  It\'s no wonder Iraq is public enemy number one.