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Author Topic: UN Support  (Read 1223 times)

Offline square_marker
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UN Support
« on: March 12, 2003, 08:32:47 PM »
Quite frankly, if this new bill is vetoed, I believe we should go to war.  Why should other countries have a say in our affairs and stop us from defending ourselves?
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Offline mm
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2003, 08:41:48 PM »
umm, the war is about "defending ourselves"

iraq is NO threat to the U.S.
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Offline Avatarr
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2003, 09:21:31 PM »
meh... square_maker, welcome to last month.....

this has already been talked about. the us going to war against iraq is no domestic issue.

Offline Simchoy
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2003, 12:34:56 AM »
Long discussed topic. I DO agree that if the new resolution fails, we should go to war (of coarse, I\'ve been saying this for a long time). Now, domestic issue, yes and no. Yes, it is about security. No, Iraq is NOT an IMMEDIATE threat. BUT, leaving Saddam to play with his WMD that the UN inspectors can\'t find unless they "stumble" apon them isn\'t going to help our interest (security, economically, whatever) either.
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Offline Ace
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2003, 05:22:09 AM »
Time to walk away!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call the Vote. Walk Away.

By Charles Krauthammer
Wednesday, March 12, 2003; Page A21


Walk away, Mr. President. Walk away from the U.N. Security Council. It will not authorize the coming war. You can stand on your head and it won\'t change the outcome. You can convert to Islam in a Parisian mosque and it won\'t prevent a French veto.

The French are bent not just on opposing your policy but on destroying it -- and the coalition you built around it. When they send their foreign minister to tour the three African countries on the Security Council in order to turn them against the United States, you know that this is a country with resolve -- more than our side is showing today. And that is a losing proposition for us.

The reason you were able to build support at home and rally the world to at least pretend to care about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction is that you showed implacable resolve to disarm Iraq one way or the other. Your wobbles at the United Nations today -- postponing the vote, renegotiating the terms -- are undermining the entire enterprise.

I understand that the wobble is not yours but a secondary, sympathetic wobble to Tony Blair\'s. Blair is courageous but opposed by a large part of his party and in need of some diplomatic cover.

But, Mr. President, he\'s not going to get it. Even if you marshal the nine votes on the Security Council by watering down the resolution, delaying the invasion, establishing criteria Hans Blix is sure to muddy and Mohamed ElBaradei is sure to say Saddam Hussein has met, France and Russia will still exercise the veto. You may call it a moral victory. The British left, which is what this little exercise is about, will not. It will not care what you call it but what Kofi Annan calls it, and he has already told us: a failed resolution rendering a war that follows illegitimate.

This, of course, is the rankest hypocrisy. The United Nations did not sanction the Kosovo war, surely a just war, and that did not in any way make it illegitimate. Of the scores of armed conflicts since 1945, exactly two have received Security Council sanction: the Korean War (purely an accident, the Soviets having walked out over another issue) and the Gulf War. The Gulf War ended in a cease-fire, whose terms everybody agrees Hussein has violated. You could very well have gone to war under the original Security Council resolutions of 1991 and been justified.

I understand why you did not. A large segment of American opinion swoons at the words "United Nations" and "international community." That the international community is a fiction and the United Nations a farce hardly matters. People believe in them. It was for them that you went to the United Nations on Sept. 12, 2002.

And it worked. When you framed the issue as the United Nations enforcing its own edicts, vindicating its own relevance by making Hussein disarm, the intellectual opposition to the war -- always in search of some standard outside the United States\' own judgment and interests to justify American action -- fell apart.

Thus Resolution 1441, passed unanimously, bought you two things: domestic support and a window of legitimacy, a time to build up our forces in the region under the umbrella of enforcing the will of the "international community."

Mr. President, the window has closed. Diplomatically, we are today back where we were before Sept. 12. It is America, Britain, Australia, a few Gulf states, some of Old Europe, most of New Europe and other governments still too afraid to say so openly. That\'s enough. And in any case that is all you are going to get.

Why are we dallying and deferring at the United Nations? In your news conference last week, you said you were going to have people put their cards on the table. I thought it a lousy idea to call a vote we were sure to lose. But having made your decision, you are making it worse by waffling. The world knows you as a cards-on-the-table man. Now you\'re asking for an extension of time and a reshuffle of the deck.

If, for Blair\'s sake, you must have a second resolution, why include an ultimatum that Blix will obfuscate and the French will veto? If you must have a second resolution, it should consist of a single sentence: "The Security Council finds Iraq in violation of Resolution 1441, which demanded \'full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions.\' "

The new resolution should be a statement not of policy but of fact. The fact is undeniable. You invite the French to cast what will be seen around the world as the most cynical veto in the history of the council, which is saying a lot. They may cast it nonetheless. They are, after all, French. But then they -- not you -- will have to do the explaining.

That\'s all you need. No need for elaborate compromises, stretching the timetable, or a tortuous checklist for Hussein to dance around. One sentence. One line. Cards on the table.

No more dithering. Every day you wait is an advertisement of hesitation and apprehension. It will not strengthen Tony Blair. It will not strengthen the resolve of our allies in the region. It will only boost the confidence and resolve of the people you are determined to defeat.

If the one-line resolution passes, the violation triggers 1441, which triggers the original resolutions ending the Gulf War. If it fails, you\'ve exposed the United Nations for what it is: the League of Nations, empty, cynical and mendacious. Mr. President: Call the vote and walk away.

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Offline Ace
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2003, 05:26:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Avatarr
meh... square_maker, welcome to last month.....

this has already been talked about. the us going to war against iraq is no domestic issue.


That all depends. If you want to connect the dots:Saddam has weapons, Saddam gives weapons to terrorists, terrorists attack the US. We die!

Ace
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There never has been a time when the power of America was so necessary or so misunderstood . . .
Tony Blair\'s Address to Congress

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2003, 05:49:21 AM »
The world is not ready for an organization like the UN.  A grand idea that has failed yet again.  Thanks for the article Ace.
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Offline videoholic

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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2003, 06:15:41 AM »
I have been screaming this over and over again at the radio, but the radio doesn\'t listen.  This whole fiasco has proven what a complete joke the UN is.  Why make treaties if you aren\'t going to enforce them?

It\'s like playing baseball.  It\'s a 5-4 ball game and we are in the 9th inning with the basses loaded.  The batter strikes out for the third out, game over.  Doh.  wait a second.  Why should we only have 3 outs in the last inning?  Let\'s give them 4.  What the heck....
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Offline Ace
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2003, 06:36:17 AM »
It\'s over. The president needs to say thanks but no thanks to the UN. I mean when you have the French going to other countries to lobby against us it\'s time to say see ya later.

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There never has been a time when the power of America was so necessary or so misunderstood . . .
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2003, 06:50:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ace


That all depends. If you want to connect the dots:Saddam has weapons, Saddam gives weapons to terrorists, terrorists attack the US. We die!

Ace


yeah like Al-Qaeda has suddenly been hit with the stupid stick & are going to do THAT :rolleyes:

lets face it this is NOT going to make America Any Safe\'r

because Al-Qaeda can just simply get their weapons from earyer sources... like

  • Dis Grunteled (sp) Russhian Scientists and Generals
  • North Korea
  • European Scoures (either through the seal off or stealing)
  • US Scoures (through Stealing)
  • Etc..etc..etc...


and please try and remember that all Al-Qaeda need to make the biggest terror attack in history was THIS !..............

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Offline Ace
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2003, 06:51:57 AM »
Quote
lets face it this is NOT going to make America Any Safe\'r


I hate to sound like an arrogant American, but we will decide that now.

Ace
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There never has been a time when the power of America was so necessary or so misunderstood . . .
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2003, 06:54:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ace


I hate to sound like an arrogant American, but we will decide that now.

Ace


Well i hate to sound like a level headed European :p , But... God Help us if thats the US attitude to Foreign affairs
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Offline Ace
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2003, 06:55:48 AM »
I knew that would get ya! :)

Ace
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2003, 06:58:54 AM »
Ok here is a simple question for you Ace… which country has complained the most about the UN.. Despite the fact that they contributed poorly to the funding of the UN and who have used the MOST UN veto’s.

Answer
 
The United States of America

I knew that would get ya! ;)
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Offline videoholic

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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2003, 07:23:50 AM »
Contributed poorly?  Heh..  That doesn\'t even deserve a comment.  Well, I\'ll give one comment.

Not a single country in the world puts out more funds to foreign countries than we do.  I\'d be willing to bet that we put out more funds than all the European countries combined.
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