Stupid question, I think...

[Paul2]

read
http://compreviews.about.com/librar.../aa-crtvlcd.htm

"The high refresh rates and response times of CRT monitors also makes them ideal for video purposes."
Notice the and. sounds like 2 different things to me.

I\'ll say it one last time. Pixel response times are not the same as refresh rates. They are 2 different things.

Okay, all its say the high refresh rates and response times of cRT monitors.....

If they are two different things, how come they didn\'t tell them the different or tell how its different.  Because they can\'t, and i am right.  Its the same thing.

I am very technical and when i see thing, I usually use my math to figure how comes it get this number and that...that even some lab tests expert who do lab tests  didn\'t even know.

Engineer knows what they are saying and but again, they are not always right.  But I trust an engineer more than an used to be "computer technician" who didn\'t know squat about pixel response time or refresh rate.

from the link you posted
The current magic number in LCD land is 16... a 16ms pixel response time is the highest (any higher is too slow) a gamer should consider in order to have virtually all ghosting eliminated. No doubt we will see even faster, such as 12ms, LCDs soon. For comparison, a regular CRT monitor has a response time of less than 1ms, so ghosting is never an issue with CRTs.

that link is bull, it doesn\'t even know how fast 16 ms is, if it does, it should have say about 62.5 times per second.  and would have realize 1 ms equal 1000x per second.

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

paul... you say one minute there 2 different things, then the next they\'re the same.    I\'m not even gonna bother reading your babble anymore.  

You say I google and comes up with the formula...sure, go look for it...you don\'t even know the formula if it wasn\'t for me. and you act like you know that formula a long time ago...whatever!

Heres the little formula u keep crapping on about
http://www4.tomshardware.com/display/20020429/17lcd-01.html

The first example you gave was the same one as on this site.  hmmmmm strange don\'t you think.  Also note the date. 2002, OVER 2 YEARS AGO  You just won "open mouth insert foot award"
I didn\'t know the formula without you. LOL "wipes tear from eye"
You act like you\'ve discovered the holy grail or something. lol

Again, i\'ve proven to you over and over and you\'ve just ignored the links, called the sites wrong blah blah blah.   You\'re not worth my time anymore.  I trust the word of multiple websites over your so called friend anyday. (which is most likely a made up person, so you can backup your bs)  I think you\'re just alittle confused. You see, they work in a similar fashion, but they\'re not the same thing. ohh and paul, i\'ve got plenty of electronics engineer friends.  Big friggin whoop.

btw, you still haven\'t answered those questions i gave you.  Your engineer friend should be able to quite easily.

You know what I think, I think you’re full of s@#t, you just go to websites, read a little info and sprout crap you don\'t fully understand.  Or even just rewrite what websites say.  Thats fine, just make sure you give the sites the credit too.

And again, per pixel.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/samsung_syncmaster_
173p_lcd_6.php

"This is the one Gamers should be on the lookout for. The response time is the time it takes for a single LCD to twist on or off"

Now, i don\'t think they\'re talking about the WHOLE screen there.   But i guess you do. You see paul, most websites don\'t talk about what’s not important.
Pixel response times on CRT monitors aren\'t important. They\'re fast enough.   The refresh rates for LCD monitors aren\'t important (ATM)  The response times are.
So the manufactures and websites talk more about them, and rate the monitors on them. Why? Because that’s what people want to know about. When the response times catch up to the refresh rates or even crt monitors. Resolutions and refresh rates is what the LCD monitors will start being rated on. When pixel response times are no longer important why talk about them.

Let’s recap; I’ve proven the CRT 1ms or less. I\'ve proven there’s a difference between response times and refresh rates.  I\'ve proven the little formula you go on about has been on the net before you posted it here and no paul, I didn’t learn it from you.  
And you\'ve proven NOTHING.  Just your word and your so called friends word.  
Paul, why am i bothering with you.

[Paul2]

Whoops.  Double post.  Look below.

[Paul2]

Look dude, I don\'t know tomshardware.  If so, explain how did i got the other math problem right?  the toms hardware only show how to convert ms to per second.

And I write both, the conversion of per second to ms and ms to per second.

Also, I just read the link you posted, neither does the tomshardware say anything about the refresh rate is not the same as pixel response.

The other link you posted had an error!

And again, per pixel.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/rev...ung_syncmaster_
173p_lcd_6.php

link doesn\'t work...hello!

btw, you still haven\'t answered those questions i gave you. Your engineer friend should be able to quite easily.

Let’s recap; I’ve proven the CRT 1ms or less. I\'ve proven there’s a difference between response times and refresh rates. I\'ve proven the little formula you go on about has been on the net before you posted it here and no paul, I didn’t learn it from you.
And you\'ve proven NOTHING. Just your word and your so called friends word.
Paul, why am i bothering with you.

what questions did I not answer you?  You are the one dodging my questions.

Again, where in any websites did it say response time is different than refresh rate?  Okay, you proven some website says CRT have 1 ms or less.  But I still doubt it.

Again, I never say i have any friends that tell me this.  I said someone told me, and that person is in a different forum.  I never said I have any engineer friends.  Did I?  I said even engineers and computer technicians could be wrong too.

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

ok, i\'d like to see where this engineer you refer to say that they ARE the same thing.


heres the link
http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/samsung_syncmaster_173p_lcd_6.php

Just look at any monitor specs, they all have the response times and refresh rates. if they were the same thing, they wouldn\'t list 2 different things.   They do because they\'re not the same friggin thing.

read.


And i quote
"Response time is the amount of time that it takes the display to change a specific pixel from one (display) state to another."

http://www.ctlmonitors.com/monitorglossary.html

and another
http://www.cmo.com.tw/english/tech-2.jsp

and another
http://www.infonetwork.com.au/lcd.htm

and i quote
"Response time is a specification important for LCD monitors. Don\'t confuse it with Refresh Rate.  Response time refers to how quickly a liquid crystal can twist, then untwist to either pass or block the light of each pixel. "

I love that bit, don\'t confuse it with refresh rates. ahhhh so good.
You notice how they always refer to them as a single pixel.. Not fullscreen.  

Again, they\'re 2 different things. One is talking about PER PIXEL Response times. The refresh rate is full screen drawing. Now stop being a troll and just admit you have no idea. How many friggin links does it take to convince you? YOU\'RE WRONG!!!! You have NO idea what you’re talking about. You just sprout crap and can\'t accept the truth when its shown over and over to you.  

Paul, if you continue to not accept the truth, your just gonna make yourself look more and more stupid and stubborn.

[Paul2]

think of it this way.  what\'s the different between the word "resolution" and "pixel"?

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

paul.. game over, you lose..    my last post had countless links proving theres a difference.. get over it and learn from it.


ps. This is for your next reply.




whatever.

[Paul2]

Here is the link:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/idealbb/view.asp?sessionID=E992139A38004CEC9B5AAC353275437C&topicID=31890&pageNo=1

As i haven\'t do any search engines that you falsely accused me of yet.  I am now doing a search to look up the difference between pixel response time and refresh rate.

this link here say:

http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/r/refrrate.htm

LCD displays do not have a refresh rate, however if you need to set a rate values of 40Hz or 60Hz can be used.

but i also found out that:
on
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/response_1.html

This parameter is also specified for classic cathode-ray tube displays and gas panels, but it is less crucial for them, as their response time is measured in microseconds. As for LCDs, the response time in them can reach tens of milliseconds, which may be noticeable for the human eye.

so, CRT have pixel response time measure in microseconds?  million of a second?  what?

But also, soulgrind, i don\'t know what you mean by "per pixel".  do you mean 1 pixel at a time or each and every of those pixels at the same time?
Because i believe it makes more sense on each of those pixels at the same time.

COF said refresh rate and pixel response time is different.

i am tired of quoting from the first link forum i am talking about.

But as you can see, he say you don\'t need the LCD pixel response to be under 1 ms.  Even in 1 ms isn\'t really necessary...

I admit that I am wrong that there is a different between pixel response time and refresh rate as I did some search engine myself later to find it doesn\'t seem to be same thing.

But you are also wrong about LCD needing to be under 1 ms for its to sync....

and he said CRT is deceiving on the 1 ms thing...its not even 1 ms...crt refresh rate is different than LCD pixel response...

let me quote his last sentence:

 It isn\'t as simple as the pixel being suddenly switched to a different color. That is not how it works.
 
An LCD with a pixel change rate of 8mS or faster would appear as fast as any CRT HDTV.

This has been a very enjoyable thread to read, Gentleman.

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

"But you are also wrong about LCD needing to be under 1 ms for its to sync...."  where did i say this, i never said this at all. Only thing i said is i\'ll wait till the response times catch up to refresh rates.. thats it.

Pixel responses aren\'t to do with refresh rates as such. (they work together, but are different things)
When they rate them they\'re talking only about the speed a pixel changes state. (all of them do it together though)
That’s it, not the entire screen just the speed of a individual pixel.

Refresh Rates is how quickly the entire screen updates/redraws, but the response times for the pixels are fast enough to keep up (discharge etc) thats why u get ghosting issues.

I can\'t explain it any easier then that.

As the pixel response times get better, the pixels will discharge fast enough for them to either sync to the refresh rates or faster etc.

Heres a very rough example.

Think of it this way, imagine you\'ve drawn 2 different pics that are transparent..   You put one on the table. Then put the other on top of it. (refresh rate)
 But you don\'t remove the bottom picture fast enough. (Response times)

Now if u had removed the back picture while you put down the top picture you\'d have 1 clean image.    The response time is = to or faster then the refresh rate etc.


I hope that made sense.

[Paul2]

"But you are also wrong about LCD needing to be under 1 ms for its to sync...." where did i say this, i never said this at all. Only thing i said is i\'ll wait till the response times catch up to refresh rates.. thats it.

Go back to page one and read it.

[Paul2]

Pixel responses aren\'t to do with refresh rates as such. (they work together, but are different things)
When they rate them they\'re talking only about the speed a pixel changes state. (all of them do it together though)............

..............Think of it this way, imagine you\'ve drawn 2 different pics that are transparent.. You put one on the table. Then put the other on top of it. (refresh rate)
But you don\'t remove the bottom picture fast enough. (Response times)

Now if u had removed the back picture while you put down the top picture you\'d have 1 clean image. The response time is = to or faster then the refresh rate etc.

Okay....and i been trying to tell you even though a monitor with 40 ms or 25 times pixel response per second still work with 75 Hz because its independent...the reason why a 40 ms pixel response have color smears or ghosting have to do with the speed of frame rates, not the refresh rate!

unless the frame rate is 12.5 frames per second, you won\'t see it as the pixel response is twice that speed.  But  a great speed video games run at 60 frames per second.

As the pixel response times get better, the pixels will discharge fast enough for them to either sync to the refresh rates or faster etc.

You finally use my word "sync" to refresh rate.  I told you before, it need to double pixel response speed for framerate to sync or refresh rate for that matter.

And by better, do you mean less than 1 ms like you said on page 1?
I told you its only need to double that pixel response to sync...

Admit it, we both are wrong and i did learn something new.  Probably you too now realize it too that CRT don\'t have  "under 1 ms response time" nor do you need the LCD response time to be as low as 1 ms or under....

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

Where did i say LCD monitors need 1ms or under to sync?


Don\'t put words in my mouth man.  

All i said is CRTS have 1ms or less response times. That till LCD monitors catch up i\'ll stick to CRT.. Thats it.

You haven\'t proven otherwise, i\'ve givin countless links saying they do.  Hell you though they are judged in microseconds.

I haven\'t learnt anything new, because i already knew wtf i was talking about.  When response times get faster, they\'ll catch up to refresh rates. Pretty much Eliminating any ghosting issues. Its that simple. After all this i\'m STILL sure you don\'t fully understand.

And ghosting problems ARE from refresh rates being to fast for pixel response times..  Thats why when u do simple application work you still get blurring effects. Its because of ghosting.  Dood, just stop talking please... just stop.

When i refer to sync man, i\'m just saying when the pixel response times = the refresh rates or get better. There\'ll be no ghosting issues.  Its just that simple.

[Paul2]

Okay, I was wrong that you said you need LCD need less than 1 ms to sync.  I meant to say is you want LCD to have less than 1 ms of pixel response time...well you didn\'t really say it like that,...

But you did say "CRT pixel response time have less than 1 ms."

You say you will stick to CRT when LCD catch up and say less than 1 ms response time...oh yeah...

Also, you say CRT have 1 ms or less.

Nope, you didn\'t say that.  You said, "CRT have less than 1 ms..."  not 1 ms or less...even the links you posted said that....and i am still not sure if CRT have less than 1 ms.

Also, do you agree with that it need to have twice the pixel response time for the framerate to sync?

Again, I know what you meant by refresh rate drawing the lines while pixel response change the color...which i realize it quite two different thing...I used to thought refresh rate also change the color too...but i was wrong...

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

You don\'t need twice the pixel response. You just need the pixel response to be equal to the refresh rate or faster (which most likely won\'t have with lcds) Doesn\'t matter what the refresh rate is. As long as the pixel response is on or over the refresh rate speeds. You won\'t get ghosting. It doesn\'t have to sync to it, it just has to be equal to or faster then it.