Barack Obama

[clips]

Originally posted by Lord Nicon
I hope you arent trying to put words into my mouth. Im not assuming, but i never said anything about blacks not being racist but radical.

That clear

Im sure there\'s somebody that wouldnt mind killing Bush because hes white, but im sure that most arent so diehard racist or hell bent on the fact that it would make assassinating him a  feasible action to take. Im not trying to be racist and if you dont agree with me then thats fine, but most of the times, white people (or in this case, white racists) are more likely to go out of their way to do something extreme for a cause that seems less than reasonable (to some people). Thus one of the reasons why there really isnt any such thing as a black "klan" etc etc.

In simple terms: "I" think it would be easier to fathom seeing a white man killing a black president for racial issues than a black man killing a white president for racial issues.

From a couple of comments already made in this thread, im sure im not alone in thinking this.

nicon you are on point bro..it\'s most likely that a white person will attemp to assassinate a black person than a black person doing it to a white person..viv the black panthers wasn\'t racist..they just believed in takin up arms to protect themselves from whites that was truly wilding out back then...there\'s a remote difference between the black panthers & the kkk..the kkk as you very well know went around killing blacks & lynching them..the black panthers in a nutshell was like f**k that we\'re not gonna sit around and take s**t like that...

but unfortunately how can you basically fight the u.s. gov\'t? they had all types of law enforcement breating down their necks..and for what? back then if a black person was murdered (by obviously a lyching or such)_ the police didn\'t give a shit about it. i mean all they were doing were protecting themselves and setting up kitchens and support in the black community...

the kkk is alive and well..maybe they\'re not as outspoken as they once were (because now i think all minorities will put sometin\' on that ass!) ..but make no mistake they are still making waves quietly in the south...

Dude, I live in the south. Texas. What do most people stereotype a Texan as? A shitkickin cowboy that has a ranch and spits tobaccy. Not once ever have I run into a KKK member, or heard of any gatherings in my entire life here. The only thing Ive ever seen was an old abandoned 50\'s town with a population of maybe 200 that had active KKK members there. But hey, maybe its because they arent here in Texas, but it seems like if KKK was alive and kicking it would be here.

To me, I think racism like that is incredibly scarce. And just about all whites for the most part would just hope that one day this whole race thing will blow over and there would be no conversations like this. And frankly it feels offensive when people like Quddus talk like white people hold him down.

[clips]

Originally posted by ViVi
To me, I think racism like that is incredibly scarce. And just about all whites for the most part would just hope that one day this whole race thing will blow over and there would be no conversations like this. And frankly it feels offensive when people like Quddus talk like white people hold him down.

i agree i don\'t feel it as intense as it was years ago. last incident was a few years ago in texas i think where that afri. amer. was dragged behind the pickup..i don\'t think that was the kkk tho..anyway racisim is not going to go away...

1--racism is something that is taught through parents bottomline

2-- by what white people perceive many blacks & other minorities as what they hear & see on tv...

now before somebody say something like c\'mon clips if you look at some of those rap video\'s it looks like some of those cats will kill you at the drop of a dime...which might be tru to some degree i mean there are some black youth that look like that & will seriously hem that ass up if you happen to just be walkin down the street...

but that is a very smalll percentage compared to the people as a whole race...i can say the same thing about marilyn manson..his songs & the way he acts is crazy as hell,..but i seen an interview with him on tv & he\'s actually a pretty smart individual totally differentfrom what you see on stage...

point is there are a few bad apples in every race..it just seems in america blacks in particular are perceived as thugs & killas yea we help to reinforce that to some degree but it\'s like that in every race whites, blacks, latino\'s, chinese etc...fact is if you see a black youth riding in a benz on dubs in a white suburbian area he\'s bound to be stopped...when people stop perceving us as some type of threat, only then can we truly begin to heal race relations

Originally posted by ViVi
What do you think Im trying to argue, that the black panthers are worse than the KKK? Hell no. And what makes you think the KKK is still running strong today? And if the black panthers were mostly political, then why didnt they just merge with the NAACP?


And what other dumb things have I said in this thread, you got some grudge against me?

No i dont have a grudge against you. And i was just talking. True, it was the dumbest thing i heard come out of you, but that doesnt really imply that you said something stupid before (it doesnt imply that you didnt either). Like i said i was just talking. You just seemed so upset over something that wasnt really an attack directly at you and/or every single white person. I understand you being taken aback by what he said though.

And actually you would be surprised at the number of KKK members. In all honesty it doesnt really matter whether people are a part of the KKK or not because some people have the same morals and would take the same actions anyway. Not sure if this is correct but besides texas being huge, im pretty sure that its not the most KKK populated state (like you had guessed). Its not like these people walk around town in their little ghost outfits everyday. Im not making excuses to say that they are huge but they arent small time by any standards.

Anyway

As for the BPP joining the NAACP - Thats easy. They had different views on certain things, especially on how to go about things. Do you really think that the NAACP wanted to be associated with a group of young millitants that carried guns with them? Doubt it. If you still think they are whitey killing racists etc then you can look it up yourself.

Its obvious that the type of racisim that was around in the past isnt as common, but it does happen. And if a black person became president any time soon i can assure you that there would definately be some itchy trigger finger white people out there. Of course for there to be a black president, the world would probably have to be a tad bit different.

BTW Titan: I dont know what you\'re talking about

For Christs sake, the KKK is dead.  I am curious since you guys (clips, Nicon, Quddus) keep bringing them up - did your parents tell you stories about them or something like they were the boogie man?  I mean when was the last time anyone saw some people in sheets riding through the countryside in search of black people?  The hate crimes you see now have nothing to do with long deceased KKK.  They are individual acts of racism.  

The Klan has been dead since the height of its popularity back in the 20\'s and 30\'s.  Since then it has been on a steady decline and is now a fringe group with only a handful of members.  They are a non factor in anything.  The Feds have cracked down on the white supremist groups that were still around in the 1980\'s (New Order, Aryan Nation, etc).  The Klan is a bad memory here in the South - the key word being memory.  There hasn\'t been any organized Klan activity down here for at least 2 decades.  I also fail to see the reasoning behind the Black Panthers arming themselves to protect themselves from the Klan... are you all really that misinformed?  The Black Panthers were/are a RACIST organization, not to mention Marxist:

Influenced by the teachings of Malcolm X and the Black Power Movement, the BPP, originally called the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, called for the restructuring of American society to achieve social, political, and economic equality, based on principles of socialism.

The party platform consisted often points ("We want..."): 1. Freedom and Self-determination
2. Full employment for all Black people
3 Restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people
4. Decent housing
5. Education to give Black people knowledge of self and expose the true history of American society
6. Exemption from military service for all Black men who should not be forced to defend a racist government
7. An immediate end to police brutality
8. Release from prison for all Black people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial
9. All Black people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the Black community
l0. Land, bread, housing, education, clothing, justice and peace. As a major political objective, a United Nations supervised plebiscite for Black Americans to determine their will as to their national destiny.

What a joke!  Clips they are racist and the black equivalent of the KKK.  Black Power!?!?!?!  Sounds an awful lot like White Power. :rolleyes:

Clips, racism isn\'t taught soley through the parents.  Racism will exist as long as their are people of different color in this world.  People throughout history have always been distrustful, resentful and jealous of other races due to the sole fact that they are different.

Sigh* I know everything you are talking about and no my parents didnt tell me that the KKK were boogie men etc. Im not saying they are all active and still doing all the old things that they have been doing. I never said that. Im just saying that the BPP doesnt exist to the extent that the KKK does. I know they arent dead because ill read about them in the news paper/white power sites  etc. I dont go looking for them but i know that they arent dead.

Perhaps we just have a different definition of dead. And as for there not being any klan activity for the last 2 decades, i must say that you are either blind or that by some strange case they have moved from being central in the southern states. In about less than a decade\'s time there have been klan marches etc in suburbs around here. A whole bunch of them were granted access to march in a very jewish neighborhood about a decade ago. If this happens all the way in chicago in less than a decade then its hard for me to fathom that it doesnt happen at all down there.  

And IM not trying to be racist here but to so lightly say that the BPP was as racist as the KKK is plain stupid. That is IMO. And what does being marxist have anything to do with this "debate"? Or w/e you want to call it.  

"Influenced by the teachings of Malcolm X and the Black Power Movement, the BPP, originally called the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, called for the restructuring of American society to achieve social, political, and economic equality, based on principles of socialism."

Doesnt sound that bad to me. Sure they were young and delusional and im not saying that everything they did was all wonderful and god bless the BPP but that list, while not the most rational things, wasnt blatantly racist and didnt have anything like "down with the white man" written on it (not saying that it has to be blatant to be racist). A joke? We are talking about a time where black people easily felt oppressed and to a certain extent were compared to now. So it only makes more sense out of it.

And black power = white power? Uhm, i know you arent dumb by any means, trust me, but i guess its just a difference in opinion or so because the underlying meaning behind black power is more than just a hair different from white power. Maybe by the time the term got to people outside of the BPP, it was confused for meaning something else but im fairly comfortable in saying that im sure thats not the case. And this isnt just me stating what i think. Its just general knowledge between a lot of people i know (old and young).

The only thing i can fully agree with you on is the last thing you said.

Nicon the Klan is dead.  These so called marches you refer to are a mixture of Klan and neo Nazi skinheads and never amount to more than 2 dozen or so idiots walking down a street being heckled by hundreds of counter protesters.

The BPP is racist.  I suppose this little manifesto isn\'t racist eh?


3 Restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people
4. Decent housing
5. Education to give Black people knowledge of self and expose the true history of American society
6. Exemption from military service for all Black men who should not be forced to defend a racist government
7. An immediate end to police brutality
8. Release from prison for all Black people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial
9. All Black people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the Black community


Being tied in with Malcom X and the Nation of Islam isn\'t racist?  The BPP and the KKK are about equal in membership and stupidity.

Substitute the word white, yellow or red in for black and reread it.  You can not deny how racist that is.  Release from prison for all "_______" people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.  All "_______" people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the "________" community.  

This is the difference between how whites view racism and blacks tend view racism.  We whites objectively look at a group and logically conclude from its intended purpose and actions whether it is racist.  Blacks tend look at each group by color - if its white - it is definitely racist, if its black they are heroes.  Take the Al Sharpton thread as an example of this.  At least that seems to be the case here in this forum.  Anytime a questionable black person or group is labeled as racist - the usual suspects speak up in its defense.  Of course it is impossible for any black person to be racist in this society due to the "white man" holding all the positions of power. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ViVi
The black panthers are just as alive as the KKK. And you could call the KKK "protecting white people" too, but really both are racist groups that dislike others.

The Black Panthers are still alive as a political party. They are a shell of the group that flourished in the 60\'s and 70\'s.

The KKK may have been "protecting white people" but they did it by terrorizing black people. The Black Panthers were not on the same level as the KKK. The KKK wanted white people separate from black people. The Black Panthers wanted black people on equal ground with white people.

Of course, they were labelled a militant group, for having guns to protect themselves from groups like the KKK(Who were not militant), so that is all most of America knows about them. The Panthers did more for some black communities in the 60\'s and 70\'s than any other group.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
Nicon the Klan is dead.  These so called marches you refer to are a mixture of Klan and neo Nazi skinheads and never amount to more than 2 dozen or so idiots walking down a street being heckled by hundreds of counter protesters.

More than that. Im sure you would know because you were here right? Prove it and ill drop it.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
The BPP is racist.  I suppose this little manifesto isn\'t racist eh?


3 Restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people
4. Decent housing
5. Education to give Black people knowledge of self and expose the true history of American society
6. Exemption from military service for all Black men who should not be forced to defend a racist government
7. An immediate end to police brutality
8. Release from prison for all Black people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial
9. All Black people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the Black community


Being tied in with Malcom X and the Nation of Islam isn\'t racist?  The BPP and the KKK are about equal in membership and stupidity.

Substitute the word white, yellow or red in for black and reread it.  You can not deny how racist that is.  Release from prison for all "_______" people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.  All "_______" people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the "________" community.  

This is the difference between how whites view racism and blacks tend view racism.  We whites objectively look at a group and logically conclude from its intended purpose and actions whether it is racist.  Blacks tend look at each group by color - if its white - it is definitely racist, if its black they are heroes.  Take the Al Sharpton thread as an example of this.  At least that seems to be the case here in this forum.  Anytime a questionable black person or group is labeled as racist - the usual suspects speak up in its defense.  Of course it is impossible for any black person to be racist in this society due to the "white man" holding all the positions of power. :rolleyes:

If that last paragraph whithin itself isnt partially racist then i dont know what is. We whites...? And of course this is just assuming that all whites and all blacks act in these concrete fashions? What a crock. Im sorry but perhaps there is a difference, but to put it as such is just bullshit. I appreciate the sarcasm as well. Real mature . At this rate its a useless debate as i can see your "opinion" is unmoving.

The Black Panthers are still alive as a political party. They are a shell of the group that flourished in the 60\'s and 70\'s.

The KKK may have been "protecting white people" but they did it by terrorizing black people. The Black Panthers were not on the same level as the KKK. The KKK wanted white people separate from black people. The Black Panthers wanted black people on equal ground with white people.

Of course, they were labelled a militant group, for having guns to protect themselves from groups like the KKK(Who were not militant), so that is all most of America knows about them. The Panthers did more for some black communities in the 60\'s and 70\'s than any other group.

Thank you. Of course im sure this negates the validity of anything ive said because of my "blackness" and agreeing with something that is so preposterous right?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lord Nicon
More than that. Im sure you would know because you were here right? Prove it and ill drop it.
 
If that last paragraph whithin itself isnt partially racist then i dont know what is. We whites...? And of course this is just assuming that all whites and all blacks act in these concrete fashions? What a crock. Im sorry but perhaps there is a difference, but to put it as such is just bullshit. I appreciate the sarcasm as well. Real mature . At this rate its a useless debate as i can see your "opinion" is unmoving.

 
Thank you. Of course im sure this negates the validity of anything ive said because of my "blackness" and agreeing with something that is so preposterous right?:rolleyes:

The Klan marches are a joke:

November 2002 - "BILOXI - The 10 to 20 white-robed Ku Klux Klan members expected to march along downtown sidewalks on Saturday are likely to be outnumbered by counterdemonstrators."

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/local/4627863.htm

These guys chickened out:

CHICAGO, March 11 — As we go to press, the KKK chickened out and ancelled their plan rally at Cicero on March 14. The following analysis explains what was behind the racist rally planned by the hooded terrorists.

http://www.plp.org/cd98/cd0318.html

These guys are lucky to be alive:

Thousands of New Yorkers jammed Foley Square in downtown Manhattan Saturday afternoon to protest the appearance of the Ku Klux Klan.  For every one of the 18 Klan members, including two women, there were at least three hundred protesters, jeering at them from behind metal barriers.

http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/special%20report-1_10-23-99.asp

Do you want me to post more?  As you can see they are nothing more than a rable of a dozen or so rednecks at any one event.  What a terrifying group. :rolleyes:  


As for my last paragraph prove me wrong.  I was hoping you would.  It wasn\'t a blanket statement for all blacks, it is an observation.  Everything is looked at along racial lines whether right or wrong - take the OJ Simpson case - that is the best example to show how some members of the black community view things.

You can post all you like. And I cant deny that the rallies arent major but like i said, Its a difference in opinion on what "dead" means. Despite the lack of numbers (in chicago of all places), Like i said, i cant imagine that these off shoot places are the major grounds for such actions. Perhaps this is true.

And try to find better sources :rolleyes: j/k.

I wouldnt say they all chickened out but i can see why this would happen. I never said nobody would protest it. Its obvious that many people have gotten past race barriers and would protest. I just hope you arent saying that i said this wouldnt happen. Happened more recently than i thought. While the activity isnt huge it isnt non existent. And KKK Neo Nazis, its all the same thing more or less. Im not making excuses but we are debating the racial issues of it all in which case either are the same.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk001222/uskkkviolence.shtml

And what a terrifying group? Im sorry if what i said made it seem that way to you but again, i havent said anything of the kind. Maybe it seemed implied. I mean to individuals it can be (both kkk and neo nazis together but moreso neo nazis). I was reading in the New Yorker some months ago about some Neo Nazi violence in white neighborhoods. Anyway, I was more or less debating what vivi said about the black panther party and making it clear that they arent as influential, active as the KKK. Again if you disagree and can show me things from the "new" BPP and whatever media coverage they get then fine. It would be an interesting read.  

And ive seen a billion of forums, sites etc. I dont care whether they are members or not. The fact is that there are plenty "white power" activists. Thats what im trying to point out. While not the best example, heres another:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1137483#post1137483

"It wasn\'t a blanket statement for all blacks, it is an observation. Everything is looked at along racial lines whether right or wrong "

Im glad you said that. And youre right about the second sentence, sadly. An im not denying the fact. People try to deny it but it doesnt make it any less true. As for proving you wrong, there arent too many ways i can do that (of course this could be mistaken as a way of saying i cant because its true which of course i would disagree with). I mean what could you want me to show you? If you ask me, I wouldnt say that OJ isnt guilty, if that means anything to you (considering your debate is with me).

Anytime a questionable black person or group is labeled as racist - the usual suspects speak up in its defense.

And how many times has this happened? Once? Maybe twice? The Al Sharpton thread proved very little, as you cant assume such things from 3 or 4 members on a forum (im sure youre not. or at leas i hope). It seems like black stereotypes are often seen as true in SOME white communities. Of course this is just from Observation.

Originally posted by ViVi
To me, I think racism like that is incredibly scarce. And just about all whites for the most part would just hope that one day this whole race thing will blow over and there would be no conversations like this. And frankly it feels offensive when people like Quddus talk like white people hold him down.

I agree. IMO, Racism like that could survive because people could go their whole lives without ever meeting someone of a different race.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
I suppose this little manifesto isn\'t racist eh?

3 Restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people
4. Decent housing
5. Education to give Black people knowledge of self and expose the true history of American society
6. Exemption from military service for all Black men who should not be forced to defend a racist government
7. An immediate end to police brutality
8. Release from prison for all Black people because they have not received a fair and impartial trial
9. All Black people who are brought to trial to be tried by a jury of their peers from the Black community

What exactly is racist about this? Some of the points may be stupid but racist? How? If you are really telling me that these were not relevant in the 1960\'s then I don\'t know what to tell you.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
This is the difference between how whites view racism and blacks tend view racism.  We whites objectively look at a group and logically conclude from its intended purpose and actions whether it is racist.  Blacks tend look at each group by color - if its white - it is definitely racist, if its black they are heroes.  Take the Al Sharpton thread as an example of this.  At least that seems to be the case here in this forum.  Anytime a questionable black person or group is labeled as racist - the usual suspects speak up in its defense.  Of course it is impossible for any black person to be racist in this society due to the "white man" holding all the positions of power. :rolleyes:

How can you "logically" say that the BPP is the SAME thing as the KKK? If they are the same thing, why was the KKK supported by the government while the BPP was villified? You would think that they would treat both of them the same.

Maybe I just don\'t understand racism. You know...me being black and all.

Please sir, explain it to us nonperceptive black folk.

Heh good post Nicon.  As for the "Massive" KKK rally in Valley Forge Park - that is right near Philly and I will be interested to see the how the Sunday Philly Ledger reports it.  I guarantee there will be more counter protesters than Klan/Neo Nazi marchers.  

Anyway, I have said what I have to say on the matter - I know nothing of the new BPP and all of my comments were based the original BPP, whether they are different now I do not know.

The links I used were hasty links I pulled off of Yahoo.  I also know there was some sort of rally in Montgomery AL a few years ago that went exactly like the ones I posted.  About 2 dozen showed up and about 500 protesters showed up.  Some guy in the Klan got hit with a bottle and the Klan packed up and left.  The point is these people are on the fringe of society regardless of where they are located.  HBO had an interesting documentry on the Klan and Neo Nazi\'s in Alabama a few years ago and it ended with the leader of the this group (mostly teenagers) going to jail.  

Hate groups will always be around, but the ones we have been talking about here do little to impact our society and spread their hate.

Originally posted by Black Samurai

How can you "logically" say that the BPP is the SAME thing as the KKK? If they are the same thing, why was the KKK supported by the government while the BPP was villified? You would think that they would treat both of them the same.

 

In the past 50 years?  Nope.  If you are referring to two of our former Presidents being members (before they were in office) of the Klan back in the early 1900\'s - that is something totally different.  Also what government are you referring to?  The Federal government or the state government?  It is well known that Dixiecrats plagued the south up until the Civil Rights Act, but to say the Federal government funded them is idiotic.  The Klan was founded as an organization for ex Confederate officers - it then grew into a way for southerners to ward off the effects of Reconstruction and curb the rights that the Federal government gave blacks.  So in no way would the Federal government support this organization.  

Also the KKK has been villified.  The 1964 Civil Rights Act put an end to the Klan.  If you don\'t believe that these white power organizations have been treated the same as groups like the BPP you haven\'t been watching recent news.  Eric Rudolph was the most hunted man in the country for the past 8 or 9 years.  The 1992 shootout at Ruby Ridge ring a bell?  Those are just recent examples.  The fact is, groups like The Aryan Nation had all of their leaders killed or jailed.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
In the past 50 years?  Nope.  If you are referring to two of our former Presidents being members (before they were in office) of the Klan back in the early 1900\'s - that is something totally different.  Also what government are you referring to?  The Federal government or the state government?  It is well known that Dixiecrats plagued the south up until the Civil Rights Act, but to say the Federal government funded them is idiotic.  The Klan was founded as an organization for ex Confederate officers - it then grew into a way for southerners to ward off the effects of Reconstruction and curb the rights that the Federal government gave blacks.  So in no way would the Federal government support this organization.  

Also the KKK has been villified.  The 1964 Civil Rights Act put an end to the Klan.  If you don\'t believe that these white power organizations have been treated the same as groups like the BPP you haven\'t been watching recent news.  Eric Rudolph was the most hunted man in the country for the past 8 or 9 years.  The 1992 shootout at Ruby Ridge ring a bell?  Those are just recent examples.  The fact is, groups like The Aryan Nation had all of their leaders killed or jailed.

I\'m talking about things like COINTELPRO. "White Hate Groups" were one of the "targets" of this FBI program. The difference being that with \'Black Hate Groups\' they infiltrated and weakened the organizations while \'white hate groups\' were given information on their black rivals and many times given funds.

I know that both groups are villified today. I am mainly referring to the late-50\'s through early-70\'s.