September NPD

I bore you?  What do you think I\'m getting out of this?  All you do is throw one of your regurgitated asanine statements and I refute it.  I hardly consider them debates since you offer nothing in the way of an opposing arguement backed by facts.  If anything it is that you\'ve proven to be an unreliable source of information by exaggerating dates and numbers.  

The end result of any thread you participate in has become all too predictable, you begin to avoid the topic once you start to realize you have, and have had, nowhere to go then we end up with posts much like the last few you have in this thread.

You\'re on your way out without having proven anything.  Pathetic this is the case with all the threads you have in Console Discussion.

mm, about 7 times now someone has called you out on changing the subject to fit your needs.  We ask for you to prove otherwise and you ignore, ignore, ignore.  You\'re a sad boring man.  Then for you to start some complaint about console debate naming that as an issue.  Wow, I wish you realized how big of a fool you\'re making yourself out to be.

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

and still, the table salt vs rock salt goes un debated.... what a was of time this thread is...

The old debates used to get really heated. Had to love them. Especially in the first 3 years. All the noobs and the fanboyism etc.

So much fun...

[Bobs_Hardware]

Originally posted by Watchdog
I don\'t know much, but I know MS knows business and is a smart company.  I doubt that they really expected to catch and beat Sony.  I can\'t believe that they thought they could win when no one else in the industry nor any financial analyst gave them any chance at all to even succeed.

MS knew there\'d be growing pains and knew it was an investment.  That statement that you mention BH, was more of a PR, rally the troops, please the stockholders type thing.

MS wouldn\'t be where they are (not only speaking of xbox) if they had such horrible expectations and market researchers.  It doesn\'t make sense and just ain\'t true.

I assume you remember the statement. Seems like an odd thing to say though, does it not? Won\'t make the same mistake again by giving Sony a two year head start? At the very least it implies they (quietly) expected to do a lot better than they did, or had forecast.

You\'d have to pull some major quotage to have me believe that MS expected to start outselling PS2 from the get go or shortly after. It\'s a ridiculous thought when you compare what the Xbox had to offer in terms of games to what PS2 had and what was coming. I remember their projections being optimistic but hardly unbelievable and I think outselling the PS2 at the time was unbelievable.

Read above. Perhaps if you, the master of quoting, could find the quote I\'m thinking of, it could clear up confusion - one way or another. Point is, an M$ rep stated that they underestimated Sony, and won\'t make the same mistake (allowing Sony a 2 year head start) next time around.

but thanks for reiterating my point?

Well.. I\'ll lean both ways. Lack of games, and a lack of decent marketting, 50/50?

since the successor to the Xbox has been in development since the original released.

Are you sure about that? Actually in developement, or just a plan? Oh, just read further down your next post, they mentioned it. Not quite \'in developement\', but.. yah.

And before that the N64 was the most successful console launch in history, look what happened there.

My point was that it was not dead on arrival, and a lot of factors lead to it\'s eventual demise.

And as far as I know, the N64 was a very successful console? 30+million, no? I take it that you\'re implying that the XBox was dead on arrival as well?

Bobo, as far as I can tell MS has just barely kept on track of their sales forecast but nowhere did I see evidence of MS stating they would outsell PS2 on any front.

As I\'ve already said, they didn\'t state it directly, rather they implied it. But, it\'s a silly arguement.

Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Read above. Perhaps if you, the master of quoting, could find the quote I\'m thinking of, it could clear up confusion - one way or another. Point is, an M$ rep stated that they underestimated Sony, and won\'t make the same mistake (allowing Sony a 2 year head start) next time around.

I looked for a quote and haven\'t come up with one yet...I think I know what you\'re talking about though which is why I\'ll keep looking.  I just don\'t recall them saying they underestimated Sony...

Well.. I\'ll lean both ways. Lack of games, and a lack of decent marketting, 50/50?

I thought their marketing rocked for the 64, the games they were marketing were just too far and few between...

Are you sure about that? Actually in developement, or just a plan? Oh, just read further down your next post, they mentioned it. Not quite \'in developement\', but.. yah.

Seeing as how there was already funding going towards research only seven months after Xbox I\'d say that\'s more than an idea, in fact I\'d say it\'s in development.

My point was that it was not dead on arrival, and a lot of factors lead to it\'s eventual demise.

The DC actually did quite well, and if you remember I was a Dreamcast supporter back then, but I just couldn\'t see how they were going to compete with the upcoming systems.  Sega had so many things going against them such as trying to get out of debt(and they did, but slowly), developer support wasn\'t what it should have been, and the system was underpowered compared to the next gen systems...it didn\'t keep me from enjoying my DC but it had me doubting its\' future.

And as far as I know, the N64 was a very successful console? 30+million, no? I take it that you\'re implying that the XBox was dead on arrival as well?

In that regard it was a succesful console, I believe it actually sold closer to 40 million, but Nintendo happened to lose quite a bit of support from developers and lost customers to the Playstation and it\'s in that regard I believe Nintendo, and the N64, was unsuccessful.  Too bad the trend continues with the GC...

MS has gained developers throughout the past three years.  Like I mentioned before, momentum.  

As I\'ve already said, they didn\'t state it directly, rather they implied it. But, it\'s a silly arguement.

Ah, I see.  The sales forecast I pulled up says they didn\'t expect to outsell Sony\'s total numbers and their initial sales forecast, and those after, clearly didn\'t indicate numbers to outsell Sony on a monthly basis either.

Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
I assume you remember the statement. Seems like an odd thing to say though, does it not? Won\'t make the same mistake again by giving Sony a two year head start? At the very least it implies they (quietly) expected to do a lot better than they did, or had forecast.



Read above. Perhaps if you, the master of quoting, could find the quote I\'m thinking of, it could clear up confusion - one way or another. Point is, an M$ rep stated that they underestimated Sony, and won\'t make the same mistake (allowing Sony a 2 year head start) next time around.



Well.. I\'ll lean both ways. Lack of games, and a lack of decent marketting, 50/50?



Are you sure about that? Actually in developement, or just a plan? Oh, just read further down your next post, they mentioned it. Not quite \'in developement\', but.. yah.



My point was that it was not dead on arrival, and a lot of factors lead to it\'s eventual demise.

And as far as I know, the N64 was a very successful console? 30+million, no? I take it that you\'re implying that the XBox was dead on arrival as well?



As I\'ve already said, they didn\'t state it directly, rather they implied it. But, it\'s a silly arguement.

We\'re both specualting (and yes I do remember the statement), but I always thought it was an excuse for getting their asses handed to them by Sony--something to tell the shareholders.  They could say, through no fault of our own or the hardware\'s, we are beaten.  Had the playin feild been level (ie. same released date) things would have been different.

MS had little else back then.  Had it been as competitive as it is now, I doubt you\'d\'ve heard a statement like this.  But like I said, it\'s tough to say with any certainty, exactly what was going thorugh their minds.

I just tend to think that MS is where they are in the marketplace because they are a smart company who know business and you just don\'t get to where MS is, by thinking so simply and foolisly.

One thing we learned that, and we\'ll promise, is that they won\'t get a head start next time. And I\'ll just leave it at that.

-J Allard

I found that in a forum and the link was dead.  The thread was dated September 10th, 2002.  I\'ve searched CNet, Yahoo, TeamXbox, and the TeamXbox forums with no other results however I\'ll keep looking for the full article.

Perhaps I\'ll search this forum, it\'s bound to be in here...

EDIT: Doesn\'t seem to be here.  Maybe it was accidentally deleted along with Console Debating...

Anyway, seeing as how that quote was given in September of 2002 I think it\'s a response to missing their initial sales forecast.  I think it\'s a far fetch to even assume MS meant they would outsell Sony, especially when you have MS reps clearly stating it will take time to break in, and mind you that was before the console launched.  I suppose you could say they underestimated Sony\'s momentum and that attributed to the missed sales forecast but that still doesn\'t imply that MS expected to outsell the PS2.

The only concrete evidence we have are the sales figures I posted and those do not indicate the Xbox outselling PS2.  The forecast would have had to have been doubled.

ps3 already has a head start

Originally posted by mm
ps3 already has a head start

Ermmm...okay.  Do you care to elaborate on that thought?

you + common sense = answer

i can further extend that equation if required

Your logic has been in question by quite a few people so rather than assume what you mean I\'d rather you spell it out for me, wouldn\'t want to twist your words around.

He\'s talking about the name brand loyalty and Sony\'s mind share.

Xbox is picking up steam in that department, though. Nintendo is the one with more to gain next gen, in my opinion.

-Dan

I know what he was getting at, I was another attempt to drag a discussion out him.

oh well...

[Evi]

Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
and still, the table salt vs rock salt goes un debated.... what a was of time this thread is...

I prefer table salt over rock salt...the taste is just clearly better.

Microsoft is losing money on every console they sell, so hopefully in this next coming generation, they\'ll do a lot better...although I\'m not fond of Microsoft, but I\'ll give em a try if their next console isn\'t freakin\' gargantuan I\'ve always loved Nintendo since I was like...4, so I will always support them, and I\'m glad they\'ve decided to get out of the "kids only" state of mind with their games.

I\'ve read so many posts on so many things, that I\'m afraid to write anymore...so I\'m just going to stop here, as I might get beaten down with no mercy, but it\'s fun to read all these arguements.

Opinions are opinions, no matter how awful or incorrect they may be if there is absolutely no base or facts for them at all. mm is just being mm, although when I see all these things he\'s been saying, and the proof or whatever that you\'re asking of him, I see no point to it all to begin with. Reading of this has given me a headache, although it has been enjoyable at the same time.

^^^^ What the hell?...I thought I wasn\'t going to comment...oh well...