100,000 Iraqi Civilian Deaths?

I dunno, this number is pretty shocking, I\'m not going to read too far into this because I know the source of this information will be questioned anyway, but anyways...

They found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war.

Before the war the major causes of death were heart attacks, chronic disorders and accidents. That changed after the war.

Two-thirds of violent deaths in the study were reported in Falluja, the insurgent held city 50 km (32 miles) west of Baghdad which had been repeatedly hit by U.S. air strikes.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_1-T&oldflok=ne-us-12-l6&flok=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20041028%2F1457167130.htm&sc=rontz

[videoholic]

so a country where there are a ton of terrorists is actually more violant without an established control force?

Oopsy doopsy.

Freedom is on the march.

For once I would like to hear one of you liberals say:

\'The truth is, my beliefs and my political party do nothing but hurt America. I would rather appease the Islamic fundamentalists than kill them. I live under the very blanket of protection that George Bush and the U.S. military provides, yet I have the audacity to question the manner in which they provide it. In truth, I am a Gutless, Nutless Wonder who, from the comfort of his Barcalounger, does nothing but find fault with America."

That is what I would like to hear.

Really - I don\'t hate John Kerry, rather I have issues with those of you who support him.   It is not the right that has divided this country, it is the left who make outragous accusations and care more for the well being of insurgents in Falluja then our own soldiers.  To claim that 2/3 of "100,000 Iraqi civilians" have been killed due to the negligence of the US military is insulting.

\'The truth is, my beliefs and my political party do nothing but hurt America. I would rather appease the Islamic fundamentalists than kill them. I live under the very blanket of protection that George Bush and the U.S. military provides, yet I have the audacity to question the manner in which they provide it. In truth, I am a Gutless, Nutless Wonder who, from the comfort of his Barcalounger, does nothing but find fault with America."

nice shot at a few good man !

Yah, nowhere near as interesting, however.

I was being somewhat sarcastic.  Come on you know you got a chuckle out of it Ryu.

*holding back urge to post*

Giga:  Why do you call it "finding fault with America," when in fact what we are finding fault with is G.W. Bush\'s dumb ass decision to invade Iraq?  George Bush <> America.

Nor is it finding fault with the US Military.  The suggestion that 2/3s of violent deaths may have been due to US airstrikes is NOT in my mind an attack on the US military.  It was doing exactly what it was designed to do.  The fault lies with those who callously wielded that military, not the pilots and soldiers.  The decision makers are at fault, not those who followed their orders.

When you hear an argument from a liberal/progressive, it seems to pass through some kind of filter or signal processor in your brain that is completely changing the meaning.  I don\'t think you\'re really trying to listen.

The fault lies with those who callously wield the military?  Ever think it might be the foreign insurgents and Saddam loyalists who are bringing it upon themselves in Falluja?  The same groups who launch attacks on our troops from Falluja and the same groups that kidnap and behead foreigners that are there to help them.

This is a prime example of you blaming your own country instead of looking at the group that is really to blame.  Are you so blinded by your hatred of this administration that you can\'t see who the real enemy is?

[Evi]

WE would have gone to Iraq eventually one way or the other. Were we supposed to hide with our tail between our legs when the World Trade Center towers were bombed?? I guess what the main reason ppl keep arguing about is how Bush decided to invade. But it\'s already been done, and I think Kerry would have done the exact same thing in his position...but Kerry is way too indecisive for me to feel comfortable with him...he takes both sides and never devises any real point or purpose with a definite plan.

This whole election and having a war thing is frightening me quite a bit. I just hope the terrorists don\'t get a hold of nuclear weapons...

Originally posted by GigaShadow
The fault lies with those who callously wield the military?  Ever think it might be the foreign insurgents and Saddam loyalists who are bringing it upon themselves in Falluja?  The same groups who launch attacks on our troops from Falluja and the same groups that kidnap and behead foreigners that are there to help them.

Im sure this has happened before the war but its obvious that the copious happenings are due the the fact that we are in Iraq in the first place. Cause and effect. We moved first. Well unless you want to play chicken or the egg and then we can go back to 9/11 and so on and so on. Whatever the case may be - im not in the mood right now.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
This is a prime example of you blaming your own country instead of looking at the group that is really to blame.  Are you so blinded by your hatred of this administration that you can\'t see who the real enemy is?

As for this - It doesnt really concern me so im not really going to touch it. We could go into a whole history discussion but speaking off of surface information, you could say that our involvement there doesnt really have to extend any further than oil. Anything else we bring upon ourselves. Perhaps that seems ignortant but this is just a surface statement. Its too late to actually get into anything.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
The fault lies with those who callously wield the military?  Ever think it might be the foreign insurgents and Saddam loyalists who are bringing it upon themselves in Falluja?  The same groups who launch attacks on our troops from Falluja and the same groups that kidnap and behead foreigners that are there to help them.

This is a prime example of you blaming your own country instead of looking at the group that is really to blame.  Are you so blinded by your hatred of this administration that you can\'t see who the real enemy is?

Are you telling me you think all of those 100,000 were insurgents, and all of them somehow had it coming?  The report says "The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Roberts told Reuters. ... "What we have evidence of is the use of air power in populated urban areas and the bad consequences of it,"

The majority of of the dead are civilians who simply wanted to be left alone.  The article also says "Previous estimates based on think tank and media sources put the Iraqi civilian death toll at up to 16,053 and military fatalities as high as 6,370."  Presumably those numbers are either absurdly conservative estimates, or calculated much earlier in the war.  Whatever the case, if you use the same ratio and apply it to the new study, that means that 39,681 of the dead were combatants, and 60,318 people were civilians whose only crime was living in the wrong city when we decided to bomb something.

As I understand it, your argument is "they keep fighting us, so we have to keep fighting them.  If there are any civilian casualties, it\'s their fault not ours."  To me, that is a cheap excuse.  The more civilians are killed, the more the general population in Iraq hates us, and the more the insurgency grows.  It\'s a self perpetuating system.  At some point some leader on our side is going to have to start thinking with his brain instead of his dick, and come up with a different solution which does not involve bombing neighborhoods and killing civilians.  I already said I don\'t blame our military for that.  I blame our leadership for their faulty decisions.

You also cannot get around the fact that we never should have been there in the first place.  It really is as simple as that.  The war was a mistake, and it has not been beneficial for our nation.  If we had not invaded Iraq, the Iraqis would still be living under Saddam\'s regeime, and a lot of people would still be alive.  Our country would be much safer and more secure, and we would be enjoying a lot more respect and cooperation from the rest of the world.  We would be better able to fight the REAL terrorist organizations that attacked us on 9/11/01.   BTW, your favorite president would have won this election in a landslide under that scenario.

I was not "blaming my own country" as you stated above.  I was blaming Bush.  Bush is not my country.  Have we got that clear now?  Thank you.

You can\'t get over the fact we shouldn\'t have been their in the first place - you bring it up every chance you get!  The point is moot regarding the situation as we are there now.

Better able to fight terrorist organizations?  How?  Tommy Franks stated that this administration has done everything correctly in fighting the war on terror and he should know shouldn\'t he?  You are pretty stupid if you believe Kerry\'s rhetoric regarding Tora Bora...  I spoke to a US Army Ranger that coaches hockey here ( Fort Benning IS the home of the Ranger battalions) who returned from Afghanistan last year and he said Bin Laden was and has been in the remote regions of Pakistan just across the border and that Pakistan will not allow any US troops to enter its territory.  

Again, blame the insurgents and terrorists who hid behind the civilians instead of the President.  The administration has gone above and beyond its obligation to protect civilians to the point that our military is frustrated.  So your blame on Bush is nothing more than fanatical ravings of someone who indeed hates their country.  

Kerry is right about one thing - there are two America\'s thanks to the DNC and the left.  Their constant claims of Bush not being the legitimate President has made it this way.  Instead of graciously acknowledging defeat - the left (including the DNC) wanted to drag out the 2000 election and contest every vote after Bush was declared the winner in FL.