London hit by terrorist attack?

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4174260

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?Story_ID=4174226

The Economist never disappoints. Two excellent articles on how extremism is bred and what to do about it. To paraphrase, many subtle factors, such as disaffection for Muslim society, alienation from family, and poverty, not just the impassioned speeches of firebrands, breed extremism. Actually, most hardcore radicals withdraw from mosques. What actions can be taken? For Europe at least, the first thing to do is to tighten the laws at home. Second, a harsher stance needs to be taken against radical clerics. It would be wrong, however, to lock up every imam who has spoken a provacative word, as it would run counter to the larger battle of European tolerance against bigotry. Governments must work together with umbrella Islamic groups and coalitions to have the millions of peach-loving moderates take action, such as leading public marches against the men of violence and, within their communities, a public debate against jihadism.

"For what is needed is a free and open debate within Islam, one in which the modernisers emulate the tactics of the extremists in a crucial way: that they exploit Europe\'s free flow of ideas in order to win the argument against those keener on medieval practices and violence. Ultimately, that will be what makes jihadis empty their heads of hatred."

Originally posted by hyper
Actually, most hardcore radicals withdraw from mosques. What actions can be taken? For Europe at least, the first thing to do is to tighten the laws at home. Second, a harsher stance needs to be taken against radical clerics. It would be wrong, however, to lock up every imam who has spoken a provacative word, as it would run counter to the larger battle of European tolerance against bigotry. Governments must work together with umbrella Islamic groups and coalitions to have the millions of peach-loving moderates take action, such as leading public marches against the men of violence and, within their communities, a public debate against jihadism.

Wrong to lock up a Imam who speaks out advocating hate and terror?  Did you just contradict yourself by saying a harsher stance needs to be taken and then say not to lock up every cleric that advocates Islamic terrorism?  What you and other liberals fail to understand is that these people don\'t negotiate.  They can\'t be bought off.  They don\'t listen to reason.  They despise Western Culture and their one goal is to destroy it.  European "tolerance" will be it\'s undoing.  

As for "peach-loving" moderates.  I say give them all the peaches they want!

Jeez, Giga, read the article before you start attacking me about it. Take a harsher stance, yes. Lock up EVERY IMAM who has spoken a provacative word? No. Clear?

Edit: On, and thanks for so civilly pointing out my typo. Very mature of you.

Edit: Crap. I forgot that the print edition articles are for paying members only. If any of you drop by a bookstore, pick up The Economist and give these articles a read. They\'ll be worth your time. Or better yet, subscribe to the online edition. You won\'t be wasting a single penny.

[clips]

hmmm..i kinda see what hyper is sayin\' and when we have debates such as these, i like to reflect and look at the whole picture...i\'m really not sure what the culture of tolerance is overseas but there\'s this thing called freedom of speech in the u.s. that ALOT of groups take for granted. take the kkk for example they spout so much hatred for so many ethnic groups it\'s not even funny, and they can do it in a public atmosphere because it\'s their right...

maybe this is symbolic as to what is happening in London, not sure,..but if these clerics are speaking out against the gov\'t in terms of something like "burn the infadels" or "we will bring death to them" then something needs to be done...but then again there are regular people like that in the u.s. that protest and say s**t against the gov\'t so who knows....one thing is certain tho...in some of those countries of islamic faith for you to speak out against the gov\'t you would be killed or tortured on the spot.....

Originally posted by hyper
Jeez, Giga, read the article before you start attacking me about it. Take a harsher stance, yes. Lock up EVERY IMAM who has spoken a provacative word? No. Clear?

Edit: On, and thanks for so civilly pointing out my typo. Very mature of you.

Not my fault if you don\'t like being caught contradicting yourself and that you don\'t have a sense of humor. :rolleyes:

Sigh... there\'s no reasoning with you, is there? But let me just ask you one thing: do you still believe in deporting every Muslim in this country?

Originally posted by hyper
Sigh... there\'s no reasoning with you, is there? But let me just ask you one thing: do you still believe in deporting every Muslim in this country?

Something like that...

This isn\'t a war on terrorism, it is a war on Islamic Fundamentalism.  Until mainstream Islam steps up to the plate and roots these troublemakers out it is impossible to tell who is good from who is bad.  As was stated after the London bombings, these guys were perceived by their neighbors as ordinary guys who did not fit the fundamentalist mold.  Let\'s look at today\'s

New York Times

This article shows how the Muslim community viewed these terrorists prior to thier actions:

Hasib Hussain, 18, who lived nearby, was the impressionable one, a charming young man who had been drifting into a reckless teenage life until religion set him straight.

So religion set him straight eh?  These are mainstream Muslims talking here...

Then, about 18 months ago, he went on the hajj to Saudi Arabia, neighbors said, and returned a changed person, less aggressive and keenly interested in religion. He began going to the mosque. Sometimes, he even wore flowing baggy Pakistani pants and shirt. He, too, went to Pakistan, the BBC reported. The adults around him, who had been concerned that he was veering out of control, seemed pleased at the change, neighbors said.

It gets even better...

In some ways, the men, particularly the youngest ones, fit neatly into the stereotype of a suicide bomber: They are the right age. They grew up in neighborhoods where no jobs, or bad jobs, are just as common as steady jobs. They lived on blocks where people from all over the world - from Pakistan to Kosovo, Jamaica to Uganda - do not so much live together as collide with one another or, at best, keep a separate peace.

What is the single most common trait of a suicide bomber no matter where the bombings occur?  Answer:  They are Muslim.

[GmanJoe]

Gotta hand it to you, Giga. What I won\'t touch with a ten foot pole, you go in there hacking away with a dagger! Gotta respect that!

Originally posted by GmanJoe
Gotta hand it to you, Giga. What I won\'t touch with a ten foot pole, you go in there hacking away with a dagger! Gotta respect that!

I am sorry if the truth offends some people.  I tend not take the optimistic view of human nature and do not subscribe to the belief that everything can be worked out with dialog because when it comes to religion and fundamentalist beliefs - talking doesn\'t work.

[GmanJoe]

I\'m the same way but I\'m somewhat cautious about the whole deportation thing. I prefer to watch and be cautious approach.

Originally posted by GmanJoe
I\'m the same way but I\'m somewhat cautious about the whole deportation thing. I prefer to watch and be cautious approach.

If they started to clean up their own mess I wouldn\'t think the way I do.  Hell, I knew a Muslim guy from Iran at my previous job, really nice guy, but for all I know he could have packed himself with explosives one day and blew the building to bits.  

No one in the Muslim community suspected these guys of any type of terror activity, even though going to Pakistan (when he wasn\'t even born there) and then taking a keen interest in religion when prior to that he was uninterested, would have sent up a red flag to any non Muslim.

Originally posted by GigaShadow
Something like that...

This isn\'t a war on terrorism, it is a war on Islamic Fundamentalism.  Until mainstream Islam steps up to the plate and roots these troublemakers out it is impossible to tell who is good from who is bad.  As was stated after the London bombings, these guys were perceived by their neighbors as ordinary guys who did not fit the fundamentalist mold.  

 

I have read your article. Now talk to me again after you have read mine. You make an interesting point in saying that this is a war of Islamic Fundamentalism. If so, why should the mainstream Islamic community have to suffer a measure as extreme as absolute deportation? Shouldn\'t we be exclusively targetting the extremists? But I am being naive. It is IMPOSSIBLE to single out potential terrorists because as the NYT article clearly shows, we cannot differentiate them. The safest solution for the West, like you said, would be to eradicate Islam and its followers. But is this just and fair for the Muslims? Go back and read my second post in this thread. This minority of terrorists is like a tumor. Even if you remove it, there\'s always a possibility that it will appear again on another part of the body. Does this mean we kill every cell in the body?

This example has been beaten to death, but take the example of the KKK. Can we say that the Klan represents the face of Christianity? Or take the Christian fundamentalists.

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church\'s public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)

"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." - Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson\'s Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you\'d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we\'ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." -  Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995

"The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them.  If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty." - Ruler of the Nations (1987)

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody\'s pseudo-right to worship an idol." - Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech delivered on August 21, 1993 at the Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference.

"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." - Gary North, The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25.

"Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free."
- Pat Buchanan, Speech to the Christian Coalition, September 1993

Do they not resemble the Islamic fundamentalists? In the name of rooting out this minority of Christian radicals, must we deport the whole Christian population and ban Christianity? Of course not. Yes, I understand that we ARE at war, and during times of war, certain rights can be taken away. But this is a war on terrorism, or as you said, a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. This war will not end any time soon; it may even last forever. According to your logic, this means that we must for a very long time or permanetly strip Muslims of the right that all other Americans enjoy.

I found it scary that you think tolerance will be Europe\'s undoing. It\'s a slippery slope; once we ban a religion or the free speech of one group, will we stop with that? The logic and laws of your world seem to become more and more Orwellian.

What is my solution to this problem? Give economic assistance to these internal Muslim ghettoes that breed extremism. Work with the moderates to pacify potential perpetrators. Yes, it will not solve everything. But it is certainly better than doing nothing.

Originally posted by hyper
I have read your article. Now talk to me again after you have read mine. You make an interesting point in saying that this is a war of Islamic Fundamentalism. If so, why should the mainstream Islamic community have to suffer a measure as extreme as absolute deportation? Shouldn\'t we be exclusively targetting the extremists? But I am being naive. It is IMPOSSIBLE to single out potential terrorists because as the NYT article clearly shows, we cannot differentiate them. The safest solution for the West, like you said, would be to eradicate Islam and its followers. But is this just and fair for the Muslims? Go back and read my second post in this thread. This minority of terrorists is like a tumor. Even if you remove it, there\'s always a possibility that it will appear again on another part of the body. Does this mean we kill every cell in the body?

[/b]

Since when does the good of a few outway the good of the many?  We agree it is impossible to weed out these terrorist because they look and act outwardly just like everyone else.  Deport Muslims back to their countries and the US is safer, but that alone will not be enough.  Close our borders and crack down on all illegal immigrantion.

Originally posted by hyper
This example has been beaten to death, but take the example of the KKK. Can we say that the Klan represents the face of Christianity? Or take the Christian fundamentalists.

You can\'t compare the KKK to IslamaFundies.  The KKK is isolated and decaying.  I have posted on this subject quite a few times.  The KKK is dead for all practical purposes.

Originally posted by hyper
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church\'s public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)

Did this guy inspire people to pack themselves with explosives and kill innocent people?

Originally posted by hyper
"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." - Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson\'s Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994

Did this guy inspire beheadings of Jews?

Originally posted by hyper
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you\'d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we\'ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." -  Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995

This guy belongs behind bars.

Originally posted by hyper
"The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them.  If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty." - Ruler of the Nations (1987)

Same isolated mentality as the above individual

Originally posted by hyper

Do they not resemble the Islamic fundamentalists? In the name of rooting out this minority of Christian radicals, must we deport the whole Christian population and ban Christianity? Of course not. Yes, I understand that we ARE at war, and during times of war, certain rights can be taken away. But this is a war on terrorism, or as you said, a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. This war will not end any time soon; it may even last forever. According to your logic, this means that we must for a very long time or permanetly strip Muslims of the right that all other Americans enjoy.

With the exception of the Abortion nuts, none of people you listed resembles Islamic fundamentalists for one very important reason:  They have not inspired people to kill innocent people.  You can not argue that Christianity is equal or more of a threat than Islamic Fundamentalism and it is absurd that you try and draw parallels.  

However, you are correct that this war on Islamic Fundamentalism will last a very long time and that is what most don\'t understand.  The way this needs to be done is with the help of moderate Islam, but they aren\'t getting the message.  Wake them up by first cutting off all methods of legal entry for them into this country and if that doesn\'t work start deporting them.  If they want to live in Western Society and reap its benefits then they should be responsible for those in their community.

Originally posted by hyper
I found it scary that you think tolerance will be Europe\'s undoing. It\'s a slippery slope; once we ban a religion or the free speech of one group, will we stop with that? The logic and laws of your world seem to become more and more Orwellian.

I have talked about this topic many times as well.  Most European countries have a negative birthrate, yet they have an influx of immigrants from the Middle East.  If this trend continues Europeans may soon find themselves minorities in their own countries.  

Freedom of Speech does not give one the right to commit acts of sedition against the government.  

Originally posted by hyper
What is my solution to this problem? Give economic assistance to these internal Muslim ghettoes that breed extremism. Work with the moderates to pacify potential perpetrators. Yes, it will not solve everything. But it is certainly better than doing nothing.

So what you are saying is "buy them off" so they will "behave".  Appeasement doesn\'t work.  The goal of these people is not material, it is the eradication of Western Society.

Do you honestly think that deportation of all muslims will cut down on terrorist attacks? If anything it would lead to more attacks.

These extremists already despise our western culture so how would kicking everyone of theyre religion make them think "Hmmmm....maybe these guys arent so bad after all."

[clips]

Originally posted by cloud345
Do you honestly think that deportation of all muslims will cut down on terrorist attacks? If anything it would lead to more attacks.

These extremists already despise our western culture so how would kicking everyone of theyre religion make them think "Hmmmm....maybe these guys arent so bad after all."

if those people actually thought that without lookin at the past history of these lunatics then they are just as bad as these suicide bombers....deportation is not the solution tho,...and i\'m sorry, but i know in some instances maybe western countries in one way or another treat some of those islamic or arab countries unfairly, but i just cannot comprehend how one can tell a 9 yr old or 14 yr old(i\'ve heard they\'ve been that young) to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it...makes no sense no matter what religion you believe....and i don\'t see these so called leaders strappin the bombs to their a$$!.....cowards