Good Gamespy article "Do Hardcore Gamers still matter ?"

Yeah its true. DMC3\'s and Ninja Gaiden\'s difficulty didnt appeal to the casual gamer but the content is probably what appealed. The same counts for God of War which was also a hard game.

I agree with the consensus of the article :

The \'developer\' is the one from the \'chain\' who understands or is willing to cater for the \'hardcore gamers\'  the most.

Why ? Becuz alot of those devs got into the industry to make the kind of games when they weren\'t in the bizz, but when they themselves were hardcore gamers.

Most likely they don\'t have time to play as much as they once did. But it is a kind of mindset. Especially since the medium of gaming has absorbed alot more assets and aspects as a wholesome mediaform.

My former collegues at Streamline ; all passionate about stuff like great character design (They buy cgi art books from CGtalk featuring cgi artists who work at game studios, showing their work or personal work.) etc. within the games they love for THAT reason.
The \'hardcore mindset\' has evolved into more than just innovative leveldesign or interface programming etc.

Another great example are Metal Gear fans. Go brows their forums ; they live & breath MGS and maybe play few other games. If they are not to be called \'hardcore gamers\' , they\'re certainly NOT casual gamers either...

I totally agree. Casual gamers are usually the ones that find the MGS series boring and the story stupid since they are usually the ones that crave for mindless action something the series is not.
 
 MGS is the first game IMO that has intellectual value. Some who have also read "1984" would know what I mean. Hideo Kojima is the first person to ever try to create a game thats not just a game but an interactive post modern literature with meaning and thought for our social, political, informational, or even biological structure of the present human consiousness.
 Its very apparent that Kojima is highly influenced from literature and science. I am actually very astonished of Kojima\'s personal concerns and questions about the world which he expresses in the series. His points are very spot on to today\'s socialpolitical structure and I admire him for his work and for viewing the gamer like something more than just an uneducated, passive, mindless consumer.

[Jumpman]

Sometimes I love Uncron for the pure entertainment value.

Go read this http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html
, now.

MGS is not the first game with intellectual value. Maybe the first series with major political value, though.

Well, in that case : The idea behind Pac Man is that it represents mankind in a society of consumers. The Pac Man eats \'dots\'. His shape, is the epitome of
consumerism ; never having enough. A vicious cycle.

These are connotations also widely used in movie analysis and other media.

Sometimes I love Uncron for the pure entertainment value.

Me: "The earth is round."

You: "hahahahah what a moron! The earth is flat! Cant you see by just looking around you?"



Jumpman wins "the most ignorant member in the forum" award.

Go read this http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html
, now.

And that directs a kick right in Jumpman\'s mouth.

I ll give him another one though that will brake his skull and make a brain omelette

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1853410.stm

"He recently earned the acclaim of the American news magazine Newsweek, which named him as one of the top 10 most influential people of 2002."

[Living-In-Clip]

I totally agree. Casual gamers are usually the ones that find the MGS series boring and the story stupid since they are usually the ones that crave for mindless action something the series is not.
 
 MGS is the first game IMO that has intellectual value. Some who have also read "1984" would know what I mean. Hideo Kojima is the first person to ever try to create a game thats not just a game but an interactive post modern literature with meaning and thought for our social, political, informational, or even biological structure of the present human consiousness.
 Its very apparent that Kojima is highly influenced from literature and science. I am actually very astonished of Kojima\'s personal concerns and questions about the world which he expresses in the series. His points are very spot on to today\'s socialpolitical structure and I admire him for his work and for viewing the gamer like something more than just an uneducated, passive, mindless consumer.

So....I\'m a casual gamer because I think MGS is boring and the story sucks. Ah..

For the record, the story does suck. It is just proof that Kojima, while may be talented, should never attempt to direct a movie. If you want to argue about Kojima producing a game that value, then at least bring up his masterpiece, which is \'Snatcher\'. If anything, the casual gamer is the one who jumps on the MGS bandwagon and praises Kojima to no end without knowing about his past games.

Oh and MGS2 = The bigger suck. That story was a diaster .

I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though

edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer

I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though

edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer

Your logic is stupid

1)You imply that gamers that appreciated and loved his older games cant like MGS

2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen.

3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamers like MGS2 for the same reasons

4)You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks

5)You imply that new gamers or even casual gamers cant understand many aspects of the story when the truth is that many times they can understand more than what some hardcore gamers can in MGS2.

6)You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games

7)You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore.

8)You imply that casual gamers cant like Kojima\'s older games and that only hardcore gamers can and the ones that did like his older games cant like MGS2 or ZOE for that matter

9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2


Its a matter of personal taste for some that didnt like the series.

Others that like the series just follow blindly.

Others appreciate and undrstand what the latter cant understand in the series.

Others just like complaining

Others just dont get it

[Evi]

For the record, the story does suck.

I thought the first one was great for its time. The second one...the plot was more than laughable. "I live on through this arm!"

...

Yeah, lame.

Lots of great discussion in this thread.

[Paul2]

I didnt call you a casual gamer. You just called yourself one though

edit: Actually you just called yourself another casual consumer

Your logic is stupid

1)You imply that gamers that appreciated and loved his older games cant like MGS

2)You imply that all self claimed hardcore gamers necessarilly understand Hideo\'s points and story in the MGS series. You are living proof this doesnt happen.

3)You imply that hardcore gamers and casual gamers like MGS2 for the same reasons

4)You imply that all hardcore gamers are well educated people when many of these hardcore gamers\' life is nothing but games games games and they often dont find the same appreciation in some other forms of art. MGS2 "coincidentally" borrows a lot from other forms of art like literature thus a "brainless" hardcore gamer(not all hardcore gamers) wont like many aspects of it because HE actually sucks

5)You imply that new gamers or even casual gamers cant understand many aspects of the story when the truth is that many times they can understand more than what some hardcore gamers can in MGS2.

6)You imply that new gamers cant be hardcore just because they never got the chance to play old games

7)You imply that old gamers that never had the chance to try Kojima\'s older games cant be hardcore.

8)You imply that casual gamers cant like Kojima\'s older games and that only hardcore gamers can and the ones that did like his older games cant like MGS2 or ZOE for that matter

9)You imply that there are no hardcore gamers that can like MGS2


Its a matter of personal taste for some that didnt like the series.

Others that like the series just follow blindly.

Others appreciate and undrstand what the latter cant understand in the series.

Others just like complaining

Others just dont get it

Wow, I believe you do make some great points there and was quite surprise how you manage to come up with that many good points and also surprise and how much time you spent coming up with good points and writing it out.

But I must admit, I got lost even though i am quite sure you know what you are writing.  Its late here, I should be sleeping by now, but i thought I visit this forum before I went to bed.

I thought the first one was great for its time. The second one...the plot was more than laughable. "I live on through this arm!"

...

Yeah, lame.

Lots of great discussion in this thread.

I thought I was the one of the few that thought MGS2 story was overwritten and not that good.  I agree with you that I thought MGS1 story was better, much better and it\'s classic.  The gameplay and story for MGS1 would get a 10/10 for me.  One thing I really like about MGS2 is the gameplay which I would give it a 9.5/10, while the story is about 8/10.  Had the story makes more sense and stick to reality more and not overly done, it would have been better imo.

Like the arm thing you pointed out.  That\'s what i mean by overly done with the story.  Same goes with *spoiler*the patriots dead for 200 years and still manage to control the U.S.A....*spoiler end*

The story twist is lame.  As if Kojima hopes the gamers would just buy it with whatever excuses how this happen or that happen in the event.  *spoiler*If Liquid manage to live with the arm only, I think you can ressurect any past characters that died either in MGS1 or MGS2 but cutting off their arms and keeping it intact and transplant it to another person.  See what i mean there.  I can come up with other lame possibilities because Kojima come up with the lame excuses of liquid manage to survive with just the arm only through Ocelot body.

That open doors to many great lame possibilities, i can imagine otacon cutting off his sister\'s arm or leg and switch it since she\'s dead and then he can ressurrect her by doing that she will be in him with just the arm and they can communicate with each other in otacon\'s body.  Or how about this, cut either snake\'s hand or leg and switch it with Otacon, then they would be able to communicate with each other which could be useful in situation where both couldn\'t be reach via nano communciation.  See how lame that could be.  Or try threesome body parts.  Where Snake will have otacon\'s sister\'s arm, and Otacon\'s foot.  Threesome inner communication shouldn\'t be that bad, right?  Who knows, during the mission, Snake could just hide in the closet when he\'s in danger and having Otacon\'s sister\'s hand can come in handy for some jobs...*spoiler end*

[Evi]

Wow, I believe you do make some great points there and was quite surprise how you manage to come up with that many good points and also surprise and how much time you spent coming up with good points and writing it out.

But I must admit, I got lost even though i am quite sure you know what you are writing.  Its late here, I should be sleeping by now, but i thought I visit this forum before I went to bed.


I thought I was the one of the few that thought MGS2 story was overwritten and not that good.  I agree with you that I thought MGS1 story was better, much better and it\'s classic.  The gameplay and story for MGS1 would get a 10/10 for me.  One thing I really like about MGS2 is the gameplay which I would give it a 9.5/10, while the story is about 8/10.  Had the story makes more sense and stick to reality more and not overly done, it would have been better imo.

Like the arm thing you pointed out.  That\'s what i mean by overly done with the story.  Same goes with *spoiler*the patriots dead for 200 years and still manage to control the U.S.A....*spoiler end*

The story twist is lame.  As if Kojima hopes the gamers would just buy it with whatever excuses how this happen or that happen in the event.  *spoiler*If Liquid manage to live with the arm only, I think you can ressurect any past characters that died either in MGS1 or MGS2 but cutting off their arms and keeping it intact and transplant it to another person.  See what i mean there.  I can come up with other lame possibilities because Kojima come up with the lame excuses of liquid manage to survive with just the arm only through Ocelot body.

That open doors to many great lame possibilities, i can imagine otacon cutting off his sister\'s arm or leg and switch it since she\'s dead and then he can ressurrect her by doing that she will be in him with just the arm and they can communicate with each other in otacon\'s body.  Or how about this, cut either snake\'s hand or leg and switch it with Otacon, then they would be able to communicate with each other which could be useful in situation where both couldn\'t be reach via nano communciation.  See how lame that could be.  Or try threesome body parts.  Where Snake will have otacon\'s sister\'s arm, and Otacon\'s foot.  Threesome inner communication shouldn\'t be that bad, right?  Who knows, during the mission, Snake could just hide in the closet when he\'s in danger and having Otacon\'s sister\'s hand can come in handy for some jobs...*spoiler end*

Yeah...the game was going good until Revolver Ocelot\'s arm, lol. It was still fun, though.

So....I\'m a casual gamer because I think MGS is boring and the story sucks. Ah..

For the record, the story does suck. It is just proof that Kojima, while may be talented, should never attempt to direct a movie. If you want to argue about Kojima producing a game that value, then at least bring up his masterpiece, which is \'Snatcher\'. If anything, the casual gamer is the one who jumps on the MGS bandwagon and praises Kojima to no end without knowing about his past games.

Oh and MGS2 = The bigger suck. That story was a diaster .

* Sigh * you guys derail the point i was trying to make. I brought up the \'MGS fans\' as an example to illustrate the kind of gamer who might not be occupied with gaming in exactly the same way as hardcore gamers were with games of the pre-16 bit era.
(in 1987 I sometimes played Metal Gear on MSX and at that time i thought it did suck, a bit. of course, i was at the age of 9 back then, which makes a bit of a difference)

I just pointed out to the theories on JunkerHQ to let ppl see that there are indeed interesting social, intellectual, moral issues woven into MGS1 & MGS2\'s story message and, too some extent of succes ; into the plot.

I never claimed MGS2 is the ultimate hardcore game (personally, imho MGS2 is a flawed masterpiece) nor did i claim MGS fans are ultra intellectual hardcore gamers ; but they are surely NO casual gamers.

Imo, Konami games like MGS2, SH2 made alot of ppl think & be interested in topics like ; government control, euthanasia, human heritage, the USA - Russia weapon/space race, etc.
Casual gamers who play some \'fun\' game for a couple of 45 minutes sessions a week, will NOT get the incentive to research into such stuff, simply becuz those games do not trigger that.

My point is that games ...such as MGS, are more likely to include such aspects outside of \'vintage\' gaming ; which in turn evolves & enriches gaming & it\'s audience itself.