Bible Thumper gets thumped

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

politiepet, you\'ve still failed to prove anything. You compare facts to fiction and call the fiction a fact.  Thats hardly proving anything. Again, prove to me why our brain is in control of my actions and not my "soul" in control of my brain.

You can\'t. Which makes this whole debate nothing but theories.  I personally do believe that theres more then just chemical reactions that control us. Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from?  I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.

politiepet, you\'ve still failed to prove anything. You compare facts to fiction and call the fiction a fact.  Thats hardly proving anything. Again, prove to me why our brain is in control of my actions and not my "soul" in control of my brain.

You can\'t. Which makes this whole debate nothing but theories.  I personally do believe that theres more then just chemical reactions that control us. Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from?  I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.

What the fuck dude? what fiction are you talking about?

if anything is fiction, it\'s this soul you speak of, since no one has ever been able to identify one...

funny how I have used nothing but scientific facts to come to a conclusion, yet you still want me to give you "proof", whereas you are constantly basing your assumptions on the fact that you BELIEVE there is more to it, yet you have never given me any proof/reason for this to be the case, other than your believe in it...



oh and another thing. just because science hasn\'t found an explanation for everything, doesn\'t mean you can just assume there must be a soul then.....

you, yet again haven\'t given me even one piece of evidence for the existence of a soul.... You keep saying you believe it to be there...

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

what facts? you\'ve said everything is just a chemical reaction. You haven\'t disproved we have a soul. So how can you tell us facts about something that you can\'t disprove or prove. Again, its theories, NOT FACTS.

Show me factual proof that the chemicals in my brain control my actions and not the other way around. I don\'t want theories, i wanted proven scientific research.

I asked you 2 simple questions. Where do dreams and thoughts come from?

[Paul2]

i don\'t know the answer either...but anybody here ever got wet dreams?  and what were your thoughts like when have them?

[clips]

Explain this to me, why do we dream and where do dreams come from? Where does the process of thought come from?  I can hear my voice in my head, but I\'m not saying anything. These are things scientists have theories on, but no one is absulute about where these processes happen and how.

That is something that i think about from time to time....and it\'s simply astonishing. How exactly does the brain create these images and voices in your head on the fly?,...there\'s no film projector or dvd player up there yet just sittin\' here i can see and create images in my head with but a thought, and the brain is nothing more than a mound of flesh.

But it\'s also a fascinating organ,...i was watching on the discovery channel one night and the show was showing a surgeon performing brain surgery,..long story short, they showed him touching various locations of the brain and with each touch, the person displayed a different emotion...really amazing,...i mean the person would frown,...smile,..smirk,...or just moan...

I think the surgeon touched one part of the brain that he stated controlled the patients speech, and when he touched it, it was like he scrambled his speech cause the person was talking like he was retarded, and makin\' really weird sounds....the brain is absolutely amazing and there are so many things we still don\'t know about it....

[Viper_Fujax]

the key to all that is the electricity in the brain...but even that is astonishing. But whats cool is in psych class they were talking about how certain parts of ur brain are more active when you\'re frowning/smiling/etc.

definitly the most interesting organ we have..

what facts? you\'ve said everything is just a chemical reaction. You haven\'t disproved we have a soul. So how can you tell us facts about something that you can\'t disprove or prove. Again, its theories, NOT FACTS.

Show me factual proof that the chemicals in my brain control my actions and not the other way around. I don\'t want theories, i wanted proven scientific research.

I asked you 2 simple questions. Where do dreams and thoughts come from?

dude, you are really talking out of your ass. It is common knowledge that the brain consists of 100 billion neurons, that are all interacting with eachother, with the use of neurotransmitters like epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, acetolcheline and so forth. this is not something I\'m making up. This is an absolute fact.
You\'re asking me to disprove the existence of a soul? Think for yourself for a moment, maybe you\'ll see how insane that sounds. It\'s impossible to disprove the existence of something. If I were to tell you the earth is ruled by a teapot orbiting the planet would you believe it? probably not, but you sure as hell can\'t disprove it either.... look, it\'s very simple, there is no proof of there being a soul, so we HAVE to assume there isn\'t one until that proof is found...

and to answer your question about dreams AGAIN. I\'m not an expert, I DON\'T know where dreams come from, however, that doesn\'t in any way prove the existence of a soul.
However there has been scientific research on the origins of dreams. In 2000 a researcher named Mark Solms studied patiens with damage to the forebrain (it\'s a part of the brain that sits very deeply below the cortex), he discovered that these patients stopped dreaming. I\'m not saying this is conclusive evidence of dreams being generated in the brain, but it is definitely marking it as a strong possibility....


here\'s the source:
Solms, M. (2000). Dreaming and REM sleep are controlled by different brain mechanisms, 23(6), Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 793-1121.

look, it\'s very simple, there is no proof of there being a soul, so we HAVE to assume there isn\'t one until that proof is found...

The age old existential question indeed. But I\'m pretty sure a \'soul\' will never ever be proven scientifically. Imo, it\'s the one part of Godly creation which isn\'t \'captured\' to become material ; because, afterall.... all material will degrade, \'ashes to ashes, dust to dust\'.

So, that immaterial soul is the force, the thing i speak of ; which is my driving force in life. It\'s the prevalent urge to evolve in life and to become better at things we do and to develop personality and to do good ; to try to add to the effort of making the world a better place.

That\'s enough evidence for me that there is soul in humans. Otherwise, there\'s always Christianity ; geloof in de Vader, de zoon en de Heilige Geest, Amen. But, they ( Christians ) interprete God, as a personal force ... as if it would all revolve around God, humans and earth.

I personally, believe that God \'looks\' nothing like mankind ; it\'s way bigger than the Christian concept and like i said ; i believe ... that within our range of comprehension ; God is \'imporsonal\' and bigger than a billion of our universes compiled together.

For this human life time, to us, it is only relevant, that we care about what matters in this human life to evolve and improve, so that the next phase of our soul will benefit from it.

hey, if that\'s what you think, good for you!

But I\'d like to know if you agree with me on the fact that soulgrind can\'t ask of me to disprove this soul...

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

this whole debate is about the brain controls us and not the other way around. You haven\'t proved this, you\'ve proved the brain controls motor functions, verbal functions, senses, hearing0 crap like that, but that doesn\'t prove the brain controls us, simply the brain controls functions of the body.  

Again, prove to me with scientific facts that the brain is in control of me and not the other way around. I don\'t care about how the brain interacts with the body, I\'m not debating or doubting that.  I\'m doubting simply that i have no control over my actions and everything is a outcome of my brain. If that were true, as many of us have said, impulse would dominate my actions, not rational thought.

Now, explain to me were thoughts come from? Seeing an image in your head even? or dreams.  I bet even in a hundred years these questions won\'t be answered.

Heres a question you may be able to answer, what happens to the energy a human has when they die?
Do you know what the term "cause and effect" means?

Well, yeah.. i can understand

Since i am dating my current girlfriend, who is Catholic.. i had many talks with her Catholic friends as well ( mind you, my parents are from Christian background, but not practicing ).

Some of her friends would give me books from American ministries like John Maisel. The book\'s called "Is Jesus God ?" ; and i disagree with about every single word written in that book. He basically closes the book with a writing which calls for the eradication of atheists. I think mr Maisel is a true example of a conservative idiot. Let me quote him :

"Can we prove the existance of God without a Bible ? " An Adequate case for the existence of God can be made without reference to any Bible or Holy book.

In brief, the existence of God follows these three steps :
1) every effect has a cause
2) the universe is an effect
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause which we call God

longer version :

1) every effect has a cause which is greater (that is more complex) than itself
2) the universe is an effect which must have a cause which is greater (more complex) than itself
3) the universe exists (Pantheism is wrong)
4) therefore the cause of the universe exists
5) the universe contains the personal and the moral ( we humans are personal and moral )
6) therefore, at least a personal moral cause for the universe exists. So now the cause can be called "He" not "It".
7) the universe does not create something from nothing (by observation) yet it is something
8) therefore the universe had to be created from nothing (or from something that was ultimately created from nothing)
9) therefore, the personal moral existing cause for the universe can create (i.e., a personal moral Creator exists)
10) if the Creator -Cause were finite, then he would have another Creator -Cause who would have in turn another one and so on.
11) But that would mean that at least one finite Creator-Cause would be either (a) self caused or (b) uncaused. That is impossible because (a) a being cannot precede itself to cause itself and (b) nothing finite is uncaused.
12) therefore all the causes cannot be finite(non-ultimate causes)
13)the personal moral existing Creator -Cause is infinite
14) the infinite cause must be eternal because eternality is infinity applied to time ( and no meaningful statement can be made about space without reference to time )
15) An infinite eternal cause could not change ( since anything He would change into, He would already be)
16)The Creator-Cause must be all-knowing, all-powerful and all perfect (otherwise, he could change)
17)therefore a personal moral, infinite eternal immutable (unchanging) all knowing, all perfect Creator Cause exists.
18) Such a being is worthy of worship
19) A being worthy of worship can be called God
20) Therefor , God exists.

Conclusion : Atheism must be rejected as a reasonable worldview. "

End of quote.

I disagree strongly with points 5 to 6 and 15 to 20. Maisel applies earthly human terms such as \'personal\' and \'perfect\'. In my opinion, his Christianity is a heavily flawed human attempt at trying to understand what God is ; because it applies human logic ( which falls short ) to God. They say "God created man to His image". I think that is FALSE. What happened is that mankind can\'t grasp it and the institute called religion decided to make people believe that. So, imo, they created God to their (mankind\'s) image.

@ soulgrind:

I give up.. you simply fail to see my point over and over again... it\'s getting tiresome.
one last thing though, read my posts for a change. I already told you there\'s reason to believe dreams are nothing more than the very same processes that control your body. It\'s all just a brain function....

human energy?! seriously, stop making things up and using them like they are facts..... I don\'t know what the hell you mean...

Untill you actually come up with proof of this soul or whatever I\'m not gonna reply to you any more...

Oh, one other thing to think about:
When you are thinking (rationally), where do you feel the action is taking place? I bet you feel it\'s happening within your brain, right?

[§ôµÏG®ïñD]

Damn dood, you like dancing around. Answer the questions, don\'t pussy footing around them. This debate is simply about your brain controls you and you have no free will basically. You\'re not in control of your actions, well i want you to prove that.

 I want facts, not theories and this chemical reactions control everything bs. You can\'t prove that. You haven\'t proved that. Prove right now, that everything originates from the brain. You simply can\'t do it because we don\'t know enough about how the brain works or as you said yourself, if we have a soul, or even were these processes originate from.

Hell, you don\'t even understand the concept of energy never dissipates, it just changes form. Guess what our "brains" are full off.  The only thing you\'ve proved is body fuctions are controlled by the brain. Thought processes stimulate parts of the brain i agree, does that mean they originated from the brain.   Yes?  prove it!

Some say these energies change form when you die and wella, your "soul" leaves your body. I can\'t prove or disprove that. Doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t happen.  

You\'re the type that probably would believe the earth was flat because some science dood said so, but gives shit to the guy that said the earth was round. Hey, whatever works for you.


cause and effect. Read up on it, it may enlighten your closed brain.


and again, prove to me that i\'m not in control of my actions. That my brain controls everything. That i have no free will.


here, i found a little site that kinda says what i\'ve been trying to say. Not factual proof, but what you\'ve posted isn\'t either. Remember, we\'re not debating that your brain controls your functions, but that the brain is the originator of such functions.

How bout this, get a gun. Stop watching "the matrix" Put it to your head and shot yourself.  When you don\'t come back and tell me why you didn\'t do it.

How can i explain it simplifier.  Move your arm, your brain told your arm to move, what told your brain to move your arm?
Its basically the chicken and the egg. Hence, cause and effect.

Damn dood, you like dancing around. Answer the questions, don\'t pussy footing around them. This debate is simply about your brain controls you and you have no free will basically. You\'re not in control of your actions, well i want you to prove that.

 I want facts, not theories and this chemical reactions control everything bs. You can\'t prove that. You haven\'t proved that. Prove right now, that everything originates from the brain. You simply can\'t do it because we don\'t know enough about how the brain works or as you said yourself, if we have a soul, or even were these processes originate from.

Hell, you don\'t even understand the concept of energy never dissipates, it just changes form. Guess what our "brains" are full off.  The only thing you\'ve proved is body fuctions are controlled by the brain. Thought processes stimulate parts of the brain i agree, does that mean they originated from the brain.   Yes?  prove it!

Some say these energies change form when you die and wella, your "soul" leaves your body. I can\'t prove or disprove that. Doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t happen.  

You\'re the type that probably would believe the earth was flat because some science dood said so, but gives shit to the guy that said the earth was round. Hey, whatever works for you.


cause and effect. Read up on it, it may enlighten your closed brain.


and again, prove to me that i\'m not in control of my actions. That my brain controls everything. That i have no free will.


here, i found a little site that kinda says what i\'ve been trying to say. Not factual proof, but what you\'ve posted isn\'t either. Remember, we\'re not debating that your brain controls your functions, but that the brain is the originator of such functions.

How bout this, get a gun. Stop watching "the matrix" Put it to your head and shot yourself.  When you don\'t come back and tell me why you didn\'t do it.

How can i explain it simplifier.  Move your arm, your brain told your arm to move, what told your brain to move your arm?
Its basically the chicken and the egg. Hence, cause and effect.

^ Basically, i agree on that. Energy, it\'s a beautiful principle. Yet, we are so far from mastering it. Think about all the heat dissipation from PC\'s. Yes, heat is also \'energy\'.

(It\'s kinda funny, I usually use the Columbus "Earth is not flat" example many times as well.)

Anyway, the brains are just the earthly tools of our earthly \'vessel\' we call \'body\'. There HAS to be more to it.