Another PS2 vs. DC thread...

I\'ll just address TLUV here...

First of all, the Dreamcast is the superior system - softwarewise.  As it should be, it\'s had a full one year headstart.  And, the PS2 is the superior system - technology wise.  As it should be, it\'s had an additional year of R&D.  Case in point: Beginning of the year, my friend bought a Pentium 333 for $800.  You can now get a Pentium 800 through Dell for $800.  Technology advances.  It really buggers the hell out of me when people brag about the obvious.  And the two obviouses are: 1) More time means more technology, 2) More time means more software.  As far as value - a DC + DVD package goes for $299 in Aussie.  There you go.  Same value.  The true superiority between the systems lies in the eyes of the guy who\'s spending his hard-earned cash.  A Madden/Tekken fan won\'t find the DC to be superior.  But someone looking for more diversity of games will (again, TIME and not superiority).

Now, in regards to "death" or "abandonment".  I agree, Sega has a horrid attention span.  The 32X and Sega CD were add-ons.  "Innovations" (funny how all systems are now CD, and Nintendo brought us the expansion)... failed attempts.  If you don\'t fail now and then, you aren\'t innovating.  Look at the PS2.  They could\'ve gone the easy route with a simple 3Dfx/Direct X platform, but they didn\'t.  They took a risk with the more robust means of streaming data.  Will Sega abandon the Dreamcast?  No.  Why?  It\'s successful.  I don\'t know if you noticed, but they did NOT abandon the Genesis.  They DID abandon 32X, Sega CD, Saturn because their sales were horrid.  They were losing money - just as Nintendo did with Virtual Boy, and just as Sony did with Betamax.  Sega cut their losses and moved on.  Sucks that it happened 3 times in a row, but that certainly is not a guarantee that it will happen with the Dreamcast.  After all, they didn\'t abandon their last successful system - the Genesis.  Dreamcast had more sales in it\'s first day than the Saturn did in it\'s first 6 months.  The Dreamcast is a success.  Three million users is nothing to sneeze at because, well, no other console in history has had that many after the first year.  A number made even more impressive but Sega\'s tarnished brandname, the lack of marketing, and the lack of big name franchises.

Sega won\'t abandon the Dreamcast because they\'d lose a fortune on a new venture.  The Dreamcast is turning a profit now - unlike 32X, Sega CD, and the Saturn... and exactly like the Sega Genesis.  Before Sega can "experiment", they need to milk the DC for all the profit that they can.  But, you have shown exactly why the Dreamcast hasn\'t reached 8 million users by now (thanks PSX for stretching the marketplace ): the mistrust that many people feel for Sega.  You are a representative of the folks who haven\'t bought the DC.  They, like you, fear that Sega will abandon it shortly.  Sega has never publicly addressed this, and they need to.  Personally, I see Seganet as a guarantee; you\'re signing folks up for 3 years.  As far as Sega on other platforms - don\'t concern yourself until you see titles like VOOT, VF3tb, Shenmue, NFL2k, NBA2k, Sonic (Sega\'s big guns) on other platforms.  All Sega is doing is exactly what companies like Capcom, Midway do - porting their arcade games to a home console.  Sega is allowing Acclaim to do this ONE YEAR after DC owners have received the game.  It will allow Sega to have more visibility for both their name and their franchises.  Which is why Sonic was on the Wonderswan, and why another Sega title is making it\'s way to the Gameboy.  It\'s all about VISIBILITY - something that killed Sega last gen.  Tekken became huge after appearing on the PSX.  Virtua Fighter is slowly dying because Saturn was so damn invisible.

See?  I can be a nice guy too.

you make some good points but you are not realizing that sega isn\'t really in control of there destiny with DC. The game developers are and if the developers jump ship and don\'t make for sega then the DC will obviously fail as could any system.  That is why it is important to know who is developing games for a system.  One example of a big name developer who doesn\'t make for the DC is Electronic Arts.  Now for us sports freaks EA is by far the leader and innovator in sports gaming and for all you fan boys don\'t even try to compare madden to 2k1 because 2k1 just in maddens league and that is because of hardware.  2k1 stretches the limits of the DC and while it is a fine game it is bush league compared to madden.  There is always talk of developers jumping ship to develop for other systems.  the developers of Abe\'s odyssey jumped off the PS2 to develop for x-box.  Now I was never a fan of that game so I really don\'t care.  It just goes to show if you don\'t have the key development teams then you won\'t have a sucessful system.  It\'s the developers who hold the fate of the console systems.  Right now the DC and the PS2 hold all the cards.  When nintendo and Xbox come out you will have 4 players in the game.  There is definitely going to be a mad scramble for developers and unfortuately these teams can\'t make for all the systems.  by natural attricion the system with the inferior tech specs will lose out and DC will be that system.  It will take some time but DC will definitely die out before its time.........and then there will be 3

all relevant arguments are welcome and all trollers like eric the troller return to under the rock from whence you came.

Shut up TLUV. I was not flaming you, you obviously want to pick a fight with me, I accept your challenge if you can open your eyes while I teach you how to argue. (apology in advnace to the mods )

eric "the troller" take your rose colored sega glasses off and realize that you are a fan boy yourself. I find it quite interesting that need to troll on a playstation site. I will not argue the point of PS2 v DC with you any longer.

I am buying a PS2. You have not decided to INFORM yourself, and you take your opinion, based soley off of the console debating forum, which is for, guess what? Console DEBATING! you idiot. Why do I even try? This couldn\'t very well be a console debating forum if all the topics are "PSX is way better than PS2" and vice versa :rolleyes:, obvious much?

For one you are very immature and you have no respect for others or their differing opinions. I don\'t know why it would matter that you are a senior member either. But judging by the numerous posts you have in relative short time, you must not have a job.

This is console debating, again! The only way to argue most of the time is by exchanging opinions based on values of a particular system over another one.

Relatively Short time? You have got to be joking me! :rolleyes: look at Living-In-Clip, he has over twice as many posts , but has only been here 3 and half months, I have been here for 6 months. So is he a "troll"? I don\'t se you getting on anyone like unknown, SyxxKorn, etc. Who get 500 posts in less than a month. Oh, but of course, their opinion is the same as yours, that PS2 is the be-all, end-all console. Of course you wouldnt get on their case. :rolleyes:

Anyway you make statement that a based merely on your own opinion and you have no concrete facts to support it.

How do I argue against this Charlie fellow, who makes his entire post on opinions? On ce again why arent you yelling at him? Oh yeah, same opinion thing again.


 

I must say one thing. You just plain lied about DOA2. You can read any and I mean ANY gaming magazine and It will tell you how the PS2 version is a better version than the DC.

Let\'s see, what was the subheading of that topic? Oh yeah, graphics and TEXTURES! The textures are blurry and their are jags in the PS2 version, of course you wouldnt know that, you probably go to places like SonySource, SonyRadar, and PS2Ign. Gimme a break, go and play both versions, and if you do not see it, than you are blind, and that is a FACT.

I really don\'t know where you get your information from. The PS2 is simply a more powerful machine than the DC and all your complaining won\'t change that.

I never argued that PS2 was the more powerful machine. I said something to the effect of "How do you know that they havent maxed out PS2, too?" Than there was some mumbling about News sources and such that really have no matter, maybe GT3 is the top of the line, after all, can\'t I make a crazy justification like you guys do? After all, that whole thing is designed to make you think, and I believe some people such as Living-In-Clip and Ddaryl got it, insightful. Not you thoguh, you can\'t see through my sarcasm, etc.

 

You keep crying about how the DC has so many good game. HELLO! ERIC the PS2 has only been out for 2 months. Did the DC have as many games at Launch???????????????????????

IMO? yes it did. Sonic, VF3tb, Soul Calibur, Rayman 2, MDK2, NFL2K, Ready 2 Rumble, etc. All by this time, PS2 simply can\'t match that with Sequels of these games a year later and fireworks simulators.

NO. If you wish to have an intelligent discussion on the matter then I suggest you stick to facts and not your twisted and distorted dillusions.

I stick to the facts when others do, their is no point in wasting my time if people are jut going to assumption-ize them away. Pathetic.

 

TROLLING, is such a waste of all our time and you are the reason that people are tired of this thread. Your need to FLAME people with differing opinions is simply a reflection of your immaturity and lack of anything interesting or compelling to say.

And you are basing this on what? Oh yeah, about 2 weeks of reading my stuff. Good job. Fact is, people are tired of this, because there are about 4 of these threads on here. This thread is not needed. Period. It is now being used for useless banter, and me having to defend myself against this useless banter.

I use to be like you............A SEGAPHYTE, but how many times do you have to get screwed over by a company to realize they are not committed to the consumer.

I am sure you were a SegaPhyte :rolleyes: What a pathetic explanation. IMO every system is worth it\'s price, i have said this many times. You dont see this of course, you are new, and uneducated. IMO, Game Gear is better than GB, why? Ity had color when GB didnt. It had speed in the form of Sonic, good fighting games, sports games that werent in blurvision, etc. does that make me a SEGAPHYTE? No, just a guy who likes his perks when they come. I havent been screwed by Sega. I have a 32X with more games then I ever got for my 3 PSX\'s. Why? Because most of them were VERY good. Pitfall, Knuckles Chaotix, Doom, MotoCross Championship, etc. The thing with Sega fans and Nintendo fans, is that they can be. Nintendo and Sega support every genre for their gamers and can support their systems with enough of their games only to make a system good. Look at N64, nearly all Nintendo games. You never had a SegaCD or a Sega32X, etc. Also, I know you were not once a egaPhyte, because if you were, you would have picked up the many classics for 32X and SegaCD and realized they were both very good systems. Too bad you never got them. :rolleyes:

Why don\'t we wait and see. This time next year when PS2 has been out for a year and games like MGS2 come out and then you can talk about the state of the DC. By this time next year there will be 4 consoles on the market and quite frankly I don\'t think the DC will make it and any way SEGA just wants to be a software publisher anyway.......................and that IS a fact straight from the Pres. of SOA.

Wait a SECOND. well, would you look at that, more opinions! :rolleyes: of course, I cant argue these opinions because then I would be a troll. I see my self as someone who comes to inform the right thing to people, you and others come in here and bash anyone who states their opinons, but look at almost your entire post. Gimme a break. Get a life, bud.

Eric Jacob

EDIT-  whats up witht he new quoting system? It crewed me up like 3 times



[Edited by AlteredBeast on 12-12-2000 at 08:19 PM]

[Living-In-Clip]

You forgot one thing Altered. Your a Sega fan, because you defend the DC. It doesn\'t matter if you own a PS2 or plan on owning one, apparently. I own one already, and even bought the PS before a Saturn, but I\'m a Sega Fanboy. Makes sense, don\'t it?


What I find extremely funny is, while they point fingers and accuse us of the flaming and fanboy acts. The mods have never banned me or you. Or even warned us. And infact, mods such as MM, Nathan, Ddaryl respect our opinions and will have a decent debate with others, without tryin to accuse someone of being a fanboy.

People like Tluv though, would much rather make "Console Debating" a pissing contest. Its not left up to debate which system is a good buy or whatever now. Its simply a huge pissing contest. Course, that results in a zillion Dc vs PS2 threads. Then when the GC or Xbox comes out, if this rate conitnues, we\'ll have threads like GC vs PS2. Apparently, people just can\'t enjoy a system now. Or debate something important (i.e, something other than "the ps2 graphics are better,duh!).

As for posting alot. Hmm. Gee. I have a job, but I can also post whenever I want. It works out quite nicely.

As can I, full-time student with 2 computer classes with lots of freedom and I work at OfficeMax, they have a computer hooked in which I can do what I want, usually

Eric Jacob

Developers abandoning the Dreamcast - please provide links.  I have seen none.  The Dreamcast still has well over 130 developers.  Oddworld\'s developers were offered money by Microsoft.  It had nothing to do with power.  If power mattered, developers would\'ve abandoned the PSX as soon as N64 launched.  They would\'ve ditched the Gameboy in favor of the Game Gear, Nomad, Lynx, Wonderswan, etc.

NFL2k1 not in Madden\'s league Check out http://www.gamerankings.com.  It\'s a site that compares reviews from all websites for games.  According to gamerankings, NFL2k1\'s overall score was 96.  Madden 2001\'s was 91.  Again, not a Sega site.  Just an overall summary site of reviews from numerous gaming sites (next gen, gamefan, you name it).  If NFL2k1 is not in it\'s league, then why the higher score?  Not every football fan loves Madden; don\'t forget, there are a lot of Gameday fans out there as well.

Developers still make PC games - even though the PC gaming userbase is nowhere near as big as the Dreamcast\'s.  Explain that.  EA themselves made the statement that they\'d work on the DC once it hit 5 million sales.  I think it\'s a load of BS - they never will.  BUT, it shows you that 5 million is a magical number for developers.  None of PSX\'s "best sellers" sold over 3 million copies.  Something to think about.  

At the very least, the Dreamcast will have maybe 15 million sales by the end of it\'s lifespan.  Like I said, let\'s try to be nice here.  PS2 fans not only want to claim victory in the war, but they want us to believe that the Dreamcast will drop off the face of the earth like Saturn did (Saturn needed 4 years to reach ONE million).  Never in the history of gaming has a console sold 3 million or more units in it\'s first year and then failed/lost all support.  NEVER.  Why would this be the first time?

the game rankings on that site you posted are bull****
relativity needs to be applied when comparing games from different consoles and different times/eras
without doing so those rankings cant be taken seriously
according to those rankings metal gear solid on GBC is the 4th greatest game in history, 96.7%, beating out the PSX version by a significant margain, 92.6%
perfect dark on N64, 95.2%, wiping the floor with shenmue, 90.7%?
oh, and it ranks tekken 3, 94.9%, and tekken 2, 90.5%, both on PSX, above TTT for PS2, 85.6%
some of those rankings are nonsensical to be honest
oh, this aint a flame so dont get the wrong idea

Actually, no, they\'re not bullsh**.  When you speak of comparing different times, etc... it makes sense - comparisons are unfair.  For Gameboy vs PSX, N64 vs DC, PSX vs PS2.  But for competing consoles in the same generation, it does not.  DC and PS2 are in the same generation.  They are also directly competing with one another - if they weren\'t, we wouldn\'t have these forums to bitch at eachother and claim eachother\'s machines were crap or the bullsh** "you\'re console is going to die" comments.

Madden and NFL2k1 are going head to head.  They are the first "next gen" football titles.  As far as the reviews themselves: how is gamerankings bullsh**?  They don\'t do reviews.  They merely post links to the reviews.  They get reviews from Next Gen, Sports Gaming, Gamers Republic, Daily Radar, Gamepro, Gamefan, Happy Puppy, etc etc etc.  All legitimate sites.  Yes, there are some Sega sites - as well as Sony sites.  The only time you can really compare the two games is when the same site reviews them (Sports Gaming).  My point was not which title is better.  My point was this: if NFL2k1 is not in Madden\'s league, then why are reviewers giving it comparable scores?  Why do most reviewers mention Madden 2001 for PS2 in NFL2k1 threads and vice versa if they are supposedly "not competing" or "in different generations"?

The fact of the matter is this: they are competing, and they are of equal value.  They are receiving comparable and similar scores from reviewers - even those on sports gaming sites.  Click the link, then search for "NFL 2k1" or "Madden 2001".  Go down the reviews for each.  NFL 2k1 is NOT out of Madden\'s league.  If it is, then the Sony fans have a lot of \'splaining to do to convince the hundreds of reviewers otherwise.

Fanboy\'s are a vicious bread.  Normal person: My title is better.. or... I prefer my title/console.  Fanboy: Not only is mine better, but yours ain\'t even in the same league... or... Not only is my console better, but yours will die.  

well, that list is bull**** because there are so many inconsistensies
you just cant justifiable use that list to prove your opinions to be fact
um, example
from what i have read on this message board, shenmue seems to be a favourite among DC owners
and rightly so, shenmue is a great game
but according to that list there are 15 DC games ranked higher than shenmue
do you automatically assume that each of those games are superior to shenmue simply because that list says so
you seem like an intelligent guy so i am guessing your answer is no
in turn, how can you assume that blah football game is superior to bleh football game simply because blah football game has a slightly higher score
you said: "The only time you can really compare the two games is when the same site reviews them (Sports Gaming)"
fistly
perhaps staff member/reviewer joe blow is a football freak and gives blah football game a rather high score
on the other hand, jim bloggs, a reviewer at the same site who is chosen to review bleh football game, may hate football and will give bleh football game a low score accordingly
you see
secondly
the only way to REALLY compare 2 games, IMO, is to play both for yourself and make an objective decision based on which floats your boats
and theres nothing wrong with airing your objective opinion
just dont provide links to bull**** in an attempt to prove you opinions to be fact

Don\'t you get it? :rolleyes:

Shenmue is the greatest game EVER! that was my opinion. To others, it is long and boring. mild graphics and bad voices, so they vote it lower. These scores are legitamte. It take every scre given to a game and combines them up to make what is the average given to the game.

Funny Fact: Final Fantasy 7 only got a composite 7.7! hehehe. Never liked that game

Time Stalkers, a game that is downright terrible in my opinion, got a better score than Final Fantasy 8.

Eric Jacob

, how can you assume that blah football game is superior to bleh football game simply because blah football game has a slightly higher score

I\'m not saying NFL2k1 is better or superior.  Somebody stated that NFL 2k1 was not in Madden\'s league.  I said "okay then - here is a site that lists links to SEVERAL reviewers.  They all find the titles to be comparable.  If NFL 2k1 is not in Madden\'s league, then surely these reviewers would have noticed it."  He provided the opinion that NFL 2k1 wasn\'t in Madden\'s league.  I provided a link to a bunch of professional opinions that the two games were comparable.  I doubt ALL those MULTI-PLATFORM sites are Sega biased.  Particularly since, as you said, many of them panned Shenmue.

The only way to measure a games quality is through consistency amongst reviewers.  That site gave links to many credible reviewers, all of which gave NFL 2k1 scores that were comparable to Madden\'s.  The scores didn\'t jump from 30 to 100; they were consistently 80+.  I\'m not saying it\'s better because of the scores; I\'m saying that there\'s no way in hell it\'s outta Madden\'s league.  NFL 2k1 is a worthy competitor.   Tell me, communal: do you honestly think NFL 2k1 is out of Madden\'s league?  Wouldn\'t a difference that severe be clearly visible in the reviews?  

People always misunderstand my "it\'s not blown away" and "it\'s not going to die" posts to be "it\'s better/superior".

Do I think those 15 games are better than Shenmue?  They may be.  Shenmue is a niche title.  It\'s a bitch to get into; just like VO:OT and Gunbird 2.  Each of those are well designed games, but their steep "frustration curve" reduces their scores significantly.

looks to me like you guys are ensuing the pissing contest yourselves.  Now on the Gameday matter.  Have even read any reviews of the latest GameDay title to grace the PS2..........It is a piece of $#@$.  Anyway your are right there are definite gameday and madden fans as far as PS goes.  Let me ask any of you.....have any of you played madden and 2k1, are are you merely just being argumentative.  Unless youv\'e played it in depth you will never no all the little things that make madden so awsome.  2k1 is a fine game, i never said it wasn\'t but it doesn\'t come anywhere close to the depth of which madden has attained.  You can\'t dipute that EA sports is the King of sports video games.  Why do you think they have their own divion of EA.  Lets get real now people.  As far a reviewers ratings go, the numbers are subjective and if you buy a game based on numbers then you will be disappointed.  I read egm, gamepro, psx, and off. ps mag, and next gen.  I like to think i have a pulse on the industry.  I go by what the reviewer says about the game.......the facts.....and then i assess the pros and cons and what i am willing to live with.  then i decide whether i will like the game or not.  On a sidebar to address something that was said about buying a console to play games like it was intended and to watch dvd movies.  You seem to forget that the dvd format doesn\'t apply to movies only.  Games are also in that format to facilitate the 4x storage space of a dvd as opposed to a conventional cd.  DOA2 is a DVD formatted game which is why it is such an improvement over the DC version and to address eric the trolls private e-mail message to me concerning JAGS in the PS2 version.........you must have been reading the early previews of the game some months ago. The game is fully anti aliased therefore there are no jaggies.  Might i suggest you actually play the game before you comment.  You say your going to buy a PS2......Have you even played a game for the ps2 yet????????????

sorry, there is no version of DOA2: HC for DC. I was comparing DOA2 for DC to DOA2 for PS2. IT is the only fair comparison. The PS2 version has blurred textures, jags, etc.

If you think those reviewers are so good at doingthere job, than NFL2K1 is the better game. These are your words, mind you. Because http://www.gamerankings.com is a composite of all those site you mentioned plus more to come out with a compostie score. and guess what, NFL2K1 is rated higher than Madden2001. Sorry. I have played both and the graphics are nice. But I can\'t stnad the way you pick your plays. And internet play? Where is it? oh yeah, on NFL2k1

They are both good, but in my opinion Nfl2K1 is out of Madden\'s league. hahaha!

Eric Jacob

Have I played both in depth?  Um, YES.  I OWNED Madden 2001 for PSX for about 7 months.  I OWNED Madden 2000 for N64 for a full year - after trading in NFL2k for it.  I played Madden 2001 for PS2 for several hours.  I\'m a football freak.  That being said:

Offense - Madden\'s playbook is much deeper than NFL2k1\'s.  However, NFL2k1\'s playbook is individualized per team.  In addition, NFL2k1 offers more pass routes than Madden.  NFL2k1 also offers the QB Scramble button - something that Madden incorporated this year.  NFL2k1\'s fatigue factor is much more pronounced than in Madden\'s.  Player performance is dramatically affected by fatigue.  Running backs slow down, and are more susceptible to fumbles.  Receivers and fullbacks are unable to sustain blocks.  Receivers are also unable to shake coverage or consistently catch the ball when fatigued.  Not so in Madden.  NFL2k\'s fatigue was a JOKE.  NFL2k1 improved it to the point that it significantly affects your strategy.  In addition - a team that runs will get improved run blocking throughout the game.  Pass more, and the blitzes will be more effective against you.  That is called gameplay depth.  Not option depth.

Defense - NFL2k1 has superior offensive reads, hands down.  All of Madden\'s defense\'s look like 4-3 coverage (except when playing man coverage, but then only one corner will move).  With NFL2k1, I can easily see if my opponent is blitzing, playing zone coverage, or playing man.  My opponent can fake the blitz (and it does appear as a blitz at first), make a safety fake zone coverage and then shoot the gap.  With Madden, the defenses all look the same.  Press the shoulder button on NFL2k1, and you will see the names of defensive backs only.  This helps you to identify mismatches - again, superior offensive reads.  Madden does not offer this.

NFL2k1\'s difference in packages is also significant.  They also have more formations.  Call a Dime/Dime Odd, and your defensive backs will be manhandled by the blockers.  Not so with Madden.  NFL2k1\'s weakness is the QB sack.  QB\'s rarely get sacked, and you get cheesy fumbles instead.  As far as momentum, NFL2k1 did it first.  A cornerback trying to take on a powerback head on will be knocked to the ground - unless that powerback is running east to west.  

Want more?  TLUV, I have played and owned both games.  I drove Sega fans nuts by bashing the living sh** out of last years NFL2k in Sega forums.  The game sucked.  This years version is vastly improved, and reviews reflect that.  Does Madden offer more depth?   Offensive playbooks, yes.  Franchise mode, yes.  Options, yes.  Teams, yes.  But the gameplay on the field, in my opinion, belongs to NFL2k1.

AND AS I TOLD YOU BEFORE - DAMNIT - NFL2k1 is CLEARLY in Madden\'s league.  CLEARLY.  I\'ve given you a link to prove that it is; but none of you have yet to provide me a link showing that it is NOT.  I\'m not asking you to say which is superior - that is up to the individual.  I\'m just asking you to cut this bullsh** of "Your game isn\'t even in my games league" because I have proven my point.  Prove your point.  Give me a link saying it ain\'t even close.