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Author Topic: Xbox and PC  (Read 2105 times)

Offline TheSammer
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Xbox and PC
« on: November 05, 2001, 03:10:50 AM »
Ok... ok... marketing "it\'s not a PC"..."it\'s not a PC"... call it as you wish... but... what i see it\'s a Intel P3 700 with an NVidia GPU and 64 Mb shared with vid mem.
PLUS:
- DirectX
- a sort of Windows OS.

So... if they ship directX N.. or new version of vid/audio drivers.. or patch for its Win OS (ahem... remember.. the wrong DLL on kiosks)... users must download/install it. (like PC).

The software house can ship unfinished games because they can patch later... buy today-play tomorrow...(like PC).

bah... the "it\'s not a PC" it\'s only a marketing mantra.
The games are directX so if they can run on a P3 700 and 64 Mb of ram (+nvidia GPU) + Windows, they will do the same (or better) on Nvidia GPU PC sytem.

I know, the XBox is cheaper than a PC... but the XBox will have the same problems of PC.

My 2 euro.

Offline BizioEE

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Re: Xbox and PC
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2001, 04:29:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TheSammer
Ok... ok... marketing "it\'s not a PC"..."it\'s not a PC"... call it as you wish... but... what i see it\'s a Intel P3 700 with an NVidia GPU and 64 Mb shared with vid mem.
PLUS:
- DirectX
- a sort of Windows OS.

So... if they ship directX N.. or new version of vid/audio drivers.. or patch for its Win OS (ahem... remember.. the wrong DLL on kiosks)... users must download/install it. (like PC).

The software house can ship unfinished games because they can patch later... buy today-play tomorrow...(like PC).

bah... the "it\'s not a PC" it\'s only a marketing mantra.
The games are directX so if they can run on a P3 700 and 64 Mb of ram (+nvidia GPU) + Windows, they will do the same (or better) on Nvidia GPU PC sytem.

I know, the XBox is cheaper than a PC... but the XBox will have the same problems of PC.

My 2 euro.


First of all Welcome TheSammer :)

...only one thing...do you really care about the components of a Console ?  ...when the hardware is so powerful and friendly to develop for ? :)

...when a system has this kind of specs :

Xbox CPU (modified PIII Coppermine):
 
Clockspeed: 733MHz
Transistor: 28.1 millions
Process: .18 micron
Die size: 10.29 mm x 10.29 mm (or 106 mm2)
Voltage: 1.1 - 1.7 Volts
L1 cache: 32KB (16KB for instructions + 16KB for data)
L2 cache: 128KB running at core clock (733MHz)
L2 cache\'s bus width: 256-bit at 733MHz
L2 cache\'s bandwidth: 11.7 GB/s
Front side bus: 64-bit at 133MHz
FSB bandwidth: 1.064 GB/s
Interger precision: 32-bit
Interger performance: 1985 MIPS
Floating-point precision: 64-bit
Floating-point performance: 2.9 GFLOPS
Registers: 128-bit

Xbox GPU (Nvidia NV2A):
 
Clockspeed: 233MHz
Transistors: 64 millions
Process: .15 micron
Fully programmable vertex shaders: 2
Fully programmable pixel pipelines: 4
Max pixel fillrate: 932 Mpixels/s
Max texel fillrate: 1864 Mtexels/s
Max texture per pass: 4 textures
Memory: 128-bit, 200MHz DDR-SDRAM
Memory bandwidth: 6.4 GB/s
Supports:
S3TC (6:1)
Vertex compression
Z-compression (4:1)
Z occlusion culling (capable of rejecting 4 Gpixels/s)
Multi-sampling FSAA and Nvidia\'s HSAA (Quincunx)
Nvidia DASP (reduces memory lactency)
Nvidia Crossbar Memory Controller (4 sub controllers each can process 64 bits of data per clock)
Modified DX8 (192 contants, vertex programs can be 136 instruction long)
Effects
Procedural deformation, geometry compression, morphing, fur rendering, skeletal animation, keyframe interpolation, per vertex motion blur, layered/volumetric fog/smoke, enviroment bump-mapping, embross bump-mapping, dot3 bump-mapping, anisotropic lighting, phong shading, light and gloss maps, 8 hardware lights, reflection, refraction, shadows, spotlights, texture morphing, texture coordinate transformation, projected textures, etc.
Particle performance: 116.5 millions/s
Polygon performance:
1 infinite light, 1 texture: 79.2 Mpolys/s
1 infinite light, 2 textures: 65.3 Mpolys/s
1 infinite light, 2 spotlights, 2 textures: 18.7 Mpolys/s

Xbox MCPX:
 
Clockspeed: 200MHz
Transistors: 6 millions
Process: .15 micron
Processing power: 6 billion operations per second
Max bus bandwidth: 800 MB/s
APU (audio processing unit): 1
DSP (digital signal processor): 2
Dolby Digital encoder: 1
Dolby Digital encoding in realtime: Yes
2D sound channels: 256
3D sound channels: 64
Positional 3D sound support: Yes (positional 3D sound is fake 3 sound using 2 stereo speakers)
Compression: ADPCM (4:1)
Fidelity: 16-bit, 48 KHz (CD quality)
DirectX Audio support: Yes
Effects: looping, enveloping, reflection, reverb, occlusion, obstruction, Doppler, etc. (to meet I3DL2 specifications)
Communication interfaces: USB, IEEE 1392, Ethernet, 56K, high-density I/F (hard drive, optical disk drive)

...and huge support from the best developers...who does care if the X-Box uses a modified P3 or a Nvidia GPU...

IMO   Look at the X-Box as an ultra powerful console...not as a mini PC !


...ops...another little thing...

Quote
The games are directX so if they can run on a P3 700 and 64 Mb of ram (+nvidia GPU) + Windows, they will do the same (or better) on Nvidia GPU PC sytem.


well...maybe in 2 or 3 years...you forget that X-Box is a fixed,balanced,optimized piece of hardware(unlike PCs) and developers will be able to fully push it to its limits(unlike PCs) :)
He has the power of both worlds
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AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline seven
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2001, 05:29:25 AM »
Here we go again.. the same laughable "facts" Mircosoft likes to throw around with them. Yeah sure, my ass.

"It\'s not a PC". It might not be a PC in terms of upgrading etc, but it sure is one in terms of components. Plus, an architecture that is over 20 years old and numbers that probably aren\'t even true. BTW: heard that the UMA is giving a lot of developers some trouble... seems to be a big bottleneck.

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2001, 05:41:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by seven
Here we go again.. the same laughable "facts" Mircosoft likes to throw around with them. Yeah sure, my ass.

"It\'s not a PC". It might not be a PC in terms of upgrading etc, but it sure is one in terms of components. Plus, an architecture that is over 20 years old and numbers that probably aren\'t even true. BTW: heard that the UMA is giving a lot of developers some trouble... seems to be a big bottleneck.


Some of the X-Box games are self-explanatory ;)
(Have you seen Project Ego?)

Quote
BTW: heard that the UMA is giving a lot of developers some trouble... seems to be a big bottleneck


Nope :)   Xbox has plenty of bandwidth to render even 50-60 mpps in game...

http://www.ddj.com/articles/2000/0008/0008a/0008as1.htm
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline seven
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2001, 06:44:45 AM »
Quote
Some of the X-Box games are self-explanatory  
(Have you seen Project Ego?)


I never denied that games look good on X-Box. But it\'s a fact that X-Box runs a very old architecture. PS2 will show it\'s true potential when developers get to use the parallel processing efficiently. ( ave you seen BG : DA? Final Fantasy X?)

Quote
Nope  Xbox has plenty of bandwidth to render even 50-60 mpps in game...


Believe your articles my friend. I am just quoting what developers have said. Seperate theory from reality.

EDIT: okay, didn\'t necessarely mean bottleneck, but that developers are having problems. I think it has more got to do with the memory managing.

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2001, 07:09:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by seven


I never denied that games look good on X-Box. But it\'s a fact that X-Box runs a very old architecture.


...Power is what matters...not the way it comes from...

Quote

 PS2 will show it\'s true potential when developers get to use the parallel processing efficiently. ( ave you seen BG : DA? Final Fantasy X?)


I know that and I\'ve seen FFX,J&D,BG : DA,etc...I\'m a hot PS2 fan and I\'m going to buy all these games ;)

Quote

Believe your articles my friend. I am just quoting what developers have said. Seperate theory from reality.

EDIT: okay, didn\'t necessarely mean bottleneck, but that developers are having problems. I think it has more got to do with the memory managing.


List all the developers(with links) who have problem with UMA :D

...then I\'ll show you what most of developers think about the X-Box performance !
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline seven
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2001, 07:36:01 AM »
Quote
...Power is what matters...not the way it comes from...


I don\'t call that power. If I were to believe Microsoft, then games should look 3 to 4 times better on X-Box now than on PS2. Besides, I think X-Box is already pushing a lot of its power. I don\'t think we will see a big leap in graphics anytime soon. But whatever, I don\'t give a damn about the X-box anyway.

Quote
List all the developers(with links) who have problem with UMA  

...then I\'ll show you what most of developers think about the X-Box performance !


I can\'t because these opinions come from the developers themselves and not the marketing people above. If you\'re interested, I was able to speak to some developers a little while back. Some developer from who works in some devision for EA statet that they could not achieve the pixelfillrate on screen that Microsoft is publishing. That also makes me wonder, why there is no "grain" effect in SH2 for X-Box... BTW, I don\'t feel the need to back that up - I couldn\'t care less if they have problems or not. I am more than happy with my PS2 and no X-Box will change that. ;)

Offline TheSammer
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2001, 08:43:28 AM »
BizioEE thank you for the welcome.

My opinion is that if they put an operating system on a "super console" that is the same (maybe embedded version) as PC and have the same hardware (yes, ultra optimized) as the PC... well i see 50% of an ultra optimized PC.

The other 50%? Well... depends on them.
If they manage software and patchs like a PC system the XBox will be an 100% little-ultra optimized PC.

If they DO NOT patch and sell half made games (they will patch it tomorrow) they will made users console gamers... but if they do not... wow... there will be the forums full of "argh!!! what version of this?, what patch...?).

In my opinion Microsoft and PC software house are not able to sell a complete product (or game) that is based on Windows/dierctX without doing patchs. The fact is that in the PC world they sell beta-stage software. Why now should be different?

We will see. But for now i don\'t trust (i\'ve already paid a lot of money and health).

Offline mm
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2001, 08:48:07 AM »
hell, even the Dramcast had a *shudder* micro$oft operating system

oh well
\"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.\" - Clemenza

Offline seven
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2001, 09:04:27 AM »
Oh yeah, welcome TheSammer!! Great to have you here.

Sorry, after BizioEE posted those tech-numbers, I just lost focus on the thread ;)

Offline TheSammer
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2001, 03:55:17 AM »
Hmmm... you\'re right. Also dreamcast has sometype of Windows Op. system.

But seems to me that there\'re 2 big difference:
1- developers can use it OR don\'t use it to make games.
2- DreamCast doesn\'t have Hard disk.

This make me think: "why put an hard disk OBBLIGATORY on the XBox?". Hard disk have a price. If you can sell your console at 100$ less without harddrive...

Maybe it need an hard disk to do some nice memory swap.  Or as i said before: to patch and expand the software in future.

This can be a good thing if used properly.
But can be a very dangerous think if used by "not so skilled" programmers. For example you can have very detailed hi-resolution textures and ambient but at some time the system must swap memory on hd and you see some "chop" in FPS.

For example try to run UT or Q3 on 64 Mb system with all detail on.  (ahem... should count on 32 mb on video memory).
Yes yes i know... XBox it\'s ultra optimized rather than PC, but when the system it\'s out of memory or you have designed very well the resource consuption or you swap. (in windows system).

Don\'t know... but i think that if they can spend less money to do the XBox and sell at a little less price they had done it. Putting HD obbligatory on the console make me think they NEED the HD.

Offline ooseven
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2001, 04:38:06 AM »
X box just a PC in a box ?

WHOLE FLAME WARS have been started over people saying less than that.

now lets see.

the Xbox

has a

Modified P3
Ge force 3
MS OS
and uses a newer version of Direct X

now where i have i seen that before..........

............
tu te tum tum
............
La la la la
............
*ooseven scratches his head and twidless his thumbs*
............
oh come one there must be something otherthan a Personal Computer
............
If i say PC ill just get flamed
............


errrmmmm errmmmmmm please someone help me out i am stuck as the only thing i can think of is a PC...........


but then again i might be wrong.


oh ok DC, no no that was just Windows CE.


oh i give in !


:(
“If you’re talking about sheep or goats, there could be some issues,” [/color]

Offline BizioEE

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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2001, 07:03:21 AM »
Quote
now lets see.

the Xbox

has a

Modified P3
Ge force 3
MS OS
and uses a newer version of Direct X


...well...yes...when People in general look at these components could think it\'s a mini PC...but...a gamer couldn\'t care less...
...when the hardware is so powerful,friendly to develop for plus huge support from developers...
...I think X-Box has the best Launch Line-up this generation and the graphics of titles like Project Ego,DOA3,Halo,JSRF,Project Gotham,AFDS are impressive,considering X-Box has still to be released...and don\'t reply(I\'m speaking in general...not to you ooseven:)  ) with the usual statement:" oh...but X-Box is ultra easy to develop for and developers are using almost all the power of the X-Box",because it\'s a bull****...each console need a lot of time to be fully pushed...even the simple PSX needed 4 years to be fully pushed...and X-Box is not the exception to the rule...
...yes...GC is the easiest...PS2 is the hardest to develop for...but all three console need time to be fully understood !

...I know...it\'s a little strange hearing all this from BizioEE\'s mouth...but that\'s what I really think now...I decided to be unaware of my dislike for Microsoft and consider the X-Box for what it is...a Console...and BizioEE,as a gamer,can\'t skip the opportunity to play Great Games...because X-Box wil produce Great Games !


(The X-Box GPU is the NV2a...not a Ge force 3 :)  )
He has the power of both worlds
Girl: What power… beyond my expectations?
AND IT\'S PERSONAL
Demon: No… the legendary Sparda!?
Dante: You\'re right, but I\'m his son Dante!

Offline seven
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2001, 07:06:17 AM »
BizioEE or anyone else:

Since the X-Box uses a UMA (Unified Memory Architecture), where is all the data stored? We have 64 MB of RAM, I know that, but what data exactly does it need to display a picture on screen.

Just to point out: I won\'t answer this question myself, I\'ll let a more experienced X-Box fan answer this :) - because I think I know what the main problem of the X-Box architecture is and where developers may have problems. Hope this won\'t get too technical.. :)

I am looking forward to your reply.

Phil

Offline ooseven
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2001, 07:12:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE



(The X-Box GPU is the NV2a...not a Ge force 3 :)  )



Damn there gose my plan to rip a Ge force 3 out of my mates X box and put it in my PC :(
“If you’re talking about sheep or goats, there could be some issues,” [/color]

 

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