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Author Topic: Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?  (Read 1667 times)

Offline rastalant
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« on: January 19, 2002, 12:21:32 PM »
A lot of people here probably already know about the new PS2 Dev Kit coming out in March -- Vector C. The new Dev Kit is supposed to allow programmers to program in a C based language directly on the PS2, rather than the Assembly-like language that is currently required. The new development kit is also said to include new utilities to assist developers in using the PS2 hardware Effeciently -- IE, using Both Vector Units, rather than Just VU0.

This immediately brings up great potential posssibilities. This post is going to focus on One possible Immediate change that we may begin to see in Playstation 2 games as a result of having ALL of the PS2\'s hardware available to use.


Think of the PS2\'s Best Of the Best. MGS2. FFX. GT3. DMC. With the Exception of Jak & Daxter, just about every PS2 game on the market uses the PS2 hardware in the following Configuration:

VU0+MIPS CORE+FPU :: Game Code. AI. Physics. Graphical effects such as Fog and Partical effects. Polygon Generation. Just about Everything.
Graphics Synthesizer :: Texturing

The PS2 hardware, however, was MEANT to use the following Configuration:

VU0+MIPS CORE+FPU :: Game Code, AI, Physics.
VU1 :: Polygon Generation. Graphical effects.
GS :: Texturing the Polygons generated by the VU1.

Basically, the VU0 + Emotion Engine Core would handle the Math. Everything about the Gameplay. The VU1 + Graphics Synthasizer would handle everything about the Graphics.

What\'s really going to blow your mind is this -- The VU1 is slightly MORE Powerful than the VU0+MIPS CORE+FPU -- COMBINED. Imagine MGS2. MGS2 is using the VU0+MIPS CORE+FPU to handle EVERYTHING. Imagine that we take away MGS2\'s great Physics. Then we took away the Whether effects. Then we removed the great A.I., and then even removed the GAME CODE. So imagine that Kojima-san had ALL that left over power freed up completely for Graphics. What would he be able to Create ... ? To have that much power available completely for Graphics.

Just thinking that, with the Exception of Jak & Daxter, the BEST looking PS2 games on the market are automatically using less than HALF of the PS2\'s Power.


So what does this mean? What will we see from Vector C?

The biggest complaint that many people have against the Playstation 2 is it\'s Textures. I will admitt -- the Textures in many PS2 games is NOT as good as those of Rogue Leader or Halo. But not much else really is ... The PS2\'s main focus of criticism is the belief that the PS2 has only 4mb of VRAM. Total VRAM. The problem with this is that the PS2\'s VRAM is the systems ENTIRE memory. The 4MB of RAM within the GS are a BUFFER, and are NOT meant to be a texture Dump. You\'ve heard it before, and you\'ll hear it again -- the PS2 is meant to Stream textures. This process continues to Improve -- PS2 games continue to show better and better textures with seemingly each consecutive game released. But they are still not Rogue Leader quality. While developers now realize that Streaming is the way to go, doing it EFFICIENTLY is easier said than Done.

The immediate solution that comes to many people\'s minds is Texture Compression -- to Compress the textures to a smaller size to move them through the system Quickly, and then Decompress them before they are finally displayed. At first, developers immediately looked at the PS2\'s built in MPEG hardware for their Compression and Decompression needs. The problem that they ran into was that while they could compress textures into MPEG format, making large detailed textures Smaller and easier to move, they suddenly found that they would not stay compressed for Long. The Textures could be compressed on the DVD/CD, but would not be able to travel all the way to the GS in compressed form. The reason for this being because the MPEG decompression hardware in the PS2 is built into the Emotion Engine. The textures would then have to travel from the EE (VU0 and Mips Core) to the GS over the system\'s 800mhz RAMBUS RAM, which only has a bandwidth of about 3.2gb/second. Thus, the texture compression through MPEG would not achieve the benifits they had hoped for.

What alternative would they have for decompression? Decompression in other platforms, such as the PC or the Cube, uses a compression technology called S3TC -- developed by Savage technologies. S3TC textures are compressed to a ratio of 6 to 1, and then Decompressed before displayed. Compression, just like anything else Digital, is simply a mathematical equation. An equation, much like MP3 (MPEG) that removes the Unnecessary information, making files (or Images) Smaller. More Efficient. What makes S3TC successful and Efficient is it\'s built in Decompression Hardware. Hardware that is solely dedicated to Decompress the Compressed Textures.

While it would not be as Easy, at first, as S3TC, Software Compression and Decompression is more than possible. A developer, with an entire VU1 open to them, could in fact use the VU1 as Dedicated Hardware for decompressing Compressed textures. Using Software compression would be no different than dedicated hardware, so long as the Compression format being used doesn\'t Suck. Depending on the resources available to the Hardware, a developer created Compression scheme could in fact excede that of even a 12 to 1 compression ratio without much loss or distortion. With an Entire VU1 set aside to decompress the textures. What makes this even more plausible is the fact that the VU1 is MEANT to handle graphics. It is MEANT to communicate Quickly and Constantly with the GS. Because of this, an INCREDIBLY fast bus exists between the VU1 and the GS -- just as there is one that connects the VU0 with the Mips Core and FPU. Thus, textures can be compressed at very high levels and stored in compressed form on the DVD. The textures would remain compressed all the way through the system, where they are decompressed by the VU1, and sent straight to the GS (With it\'s 4mb Buffer and 48gb/sec bandwidth) and displayed on the screen.

The hardware hit, depending on the game, would be ZERO. Imagine MGS2. Exactly as it is RIGHT NOW. But with 5 to 10 times the Texture detail. Or Baldur\'s Gate: Dark Aliance -- with 12 times the Texture Detail.

IMHO, I am still impressed with the PS2\'s graphics. Including it\'s textures. Occasionaly, you will get the random individual who says things like "I\'ve seen better textures on the PSX/N64!!!". While the PS2 does not use the same level of Bump Mapping and the Size of textures as seen in games like Rogue Leader and Halo, they still look GOOD. In games like DMC, GT3, MGS2, FFX, Jak & Daxter, etc, Are they hardly "BAD" to look at. The PS2 is capable of Decent textures. With the Right Developer, and the Right Tools, and a little Texture Compression with Dedicated hardware, the PS2 could be Capable of incredibly Rich textures. As developers work more with the PS2 hardware, and are able to understand the Streaming technique more, the PS2 could become capable of Impressive Textures, Without Compression.

Whatever happens, it\'s a very exciting time. The jump from First Gen to Second Gen titles is proving to be a large one. The jump from Second Gen to LATER Second Gen is also going to be a Noticeable one. Future Generations will continue to Impress. Is the PS2 the most powerful of the 3 consoles? Probably not. It probably IS the weakest of the 3. But this in no way means that it will not Impress. That it will not have it\'s more than Fair Share of Gorgeous, Incredible Games. The PS2 probably will not yield the Prettiest game of the 3 consoles this generation. But it will most certainly hold it\'s Own, for the next Several generations.

SpaceMonkey (Ign)













Well according to this in march ps2 will be getting new developement kits easier to work on as well as improving the graphics this should be sweet!!!! Thoughts?
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Offline ooseven
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2002, 12:36:46 PM »
HAPPY.... HAPPY...... JOY ......JOY ! :D
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Offline rastalant
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2002, 01:11:28 PM »
Ps2 is about to be the next "texturazilla".;) ;) :thepimp: :fro:
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Offline Metal_Gear_Ray
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2002, 01:17:58 PM »
wait and see...

Streaming doesn\'t seem to work. Look at GTA3, its textures look horrible

Take it with a grain of salt
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Offline IronFist
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2002, 01:32:00 PM »
Do not believe what you read above, because it is completely false.  Rastalant, if you would have read the whole thread at IGN (where this thing originated from), you would know that SpaceMonkey is full of crap and talking out of his, er, you know.
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2002, 01:33:33 PM »
Ack! Hack! Help... cough! *choking on his huge grain of salt*

Oookkay, so if all that is utter cr*p, then Spacemonkey\'s cup\'o\'poop overfloweth. Impressive. And I\'d also like to point out his inane usage of capital letters.
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Offline IronFist
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2002, 01:41:44 PM »
But don\'t worry PS2 fans.  All hope is not lost for the PS2\'s textures.  There is a method of texture compression that will work on the PS2 called CLUTs.  It can take a 256x256 texture down to about 65k!  What it does is takes a texture, then lowers the texture colors down to 256 colors, then uses those textures instead.  It is still in the beta stages being tested, but I think we\'ll see it being implimented regularly in a year or so.  From what I\'ve heard, it can dramatically increase the PS2\'s texturing ability.  I\'ll post some threads and information on this later when I have more time.
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Offline rastalant
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2002, 02:13:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by IronFist
Do not believe what you read above, because it is completely false.  Rastalant, if you would have read the whole thread at IGN (where this thing originated from), you would know that SpaceMonkey is full of crap and talking out of his, er, you know.



Hmmmmmmmm.......good point ironfist.  That probably where they got there name from.  Spacemonkey......hmmmmmmmm.....
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Offline Evi

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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2002, 02:52:09 PM »
There is always pointless arguing when topics like this come up...I dunno what the deal is...

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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2002, 02:54:24 PM »
@ ooseven: ...me like Ren and Stimpy !!! *goo* :D
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Offline fastson
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2002, 04:19:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Metal_Gear_Ray
wait and see...

Streaming doesn\'t seem to work. Look at GTA3, its textures look horrible

Take it with a grain of salt


Streaming works very well.. GTA3 is a bad example.. Crappy middleware engine.

Jak and Daxter, BGDA and Stuntman are better examples :)
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Offline IronFist
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2002, 04:52:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fastson


Streaming works very well.. GTA3 is a bad example.. Crappy middleware engine.

Jak and Daxter, BGDA and Stuntman are better examples :)

Exactly.  And to the best of my knowledge, those games aren\'t using any texture compression.  Once developers start using CLUTs technology, the textures will look even better.
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Offline know-it-all-wanna-be
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2002, 11:04:52 PM »
That things give me a headache.  It sound so complicated.  Texture compression, blah and blah.  How it will work on ps2 and blah....blah and some more blah.  Just to complicated.  why not like xbox, with lots of unified RAM.  Developer can freely use it as they see fits.  :D

Also, I believe this part is true, the ps2 can runs up to 48 gigabytes per second  in the graphic synthesizer compares to xbox, which only runs at 6.4 gigabytes per second.  Meaning, the ps2 has the fastest GPU than XBOX and Gamecube combine.  Why they have this fast rate?  I guess it has to do with transfering method.  I doubt about compression.  Something like a buffer...i dunno.

Also, even though ps2 can only do single layer texture, developers can do multiple layers in software.  Games like GT3 is an example without any performance hit.  the only problem is, programmers have to putting layer after layer of textures several times which is kind of a hassle.  Even GT3 have better texture and lighting than XBOX Project Gotham.  Comparing GT3 to XBOX PG is kinda unfair since PJ is rush in store before the release of XBOX.
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Offline BizioEE

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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2002, 02:34:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by IronFist
But don\'t worry PS2 fans.  All hope is not lost for the PS2\'s textures.  There is a method of texture compression that will work on the PS2 called CLUTs.  It can take a 256x256 texture down to about 65k!  What it does is takes a texture, then lowers the texture colors down to 256 colors, then uses those textures instead.  It is still in the beta stages being tested, but I think we\'ll see it being implimented regularly in a year or so.  From what I\'ve heard, it can dramatically increase the PS2\'s texturing ability.  I\'ll post some threads and information on this later when I have more time.


It\'s really interesting !  ...waiting for the info...as you can :)
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Offline Peltopukki
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Project Spacemonkey+PS2=textures monster?!?!?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2002, 05:51:39 AM »
Ironfist is talking about normal indexed image format. It is not a actual compression method, but a raw image format where you have a small index of colors (usually 16 or 256colors, 4 or 8bits) from all possible colors and each pixel in image points to this index to get its color.
Its been used for ages in all consoles and computers.
while there cant be more than 256 colors, artist can choose them from 16M colors freely. With this there can be better color accuracy than in 16bit truecolor where R,B or G values range between 0-32, while in indexed you can have those 256 colors to range how ever you want, (In theory you could do 8bit indexed image and have your colors chosen from 64 or 128 bit deep range and not just typical 8bit) . If artist makes textures well with indexed format there is no difference to 24bit truecolor verison of the texture.

I personaly think vector quantization is more viable way to store textures on ps2, and unpack with ee and send em through bus to gs. Heres exelent article about VQ.

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010416/ivanov_pfv.htm


btw. one thing about s3tc texture compression that gamecubes and x-box uses, it cannot be used for bumpmaps.
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