Console developers dont like DirectX?

Credits to Illm
From Edge Magazine Issue 110

With Timesplitters2 now Xbox bound, Steve Ellis doesn\'t pull any punches about what he thinks will be the console\'s key optimisation path. "The best thing Microsoft could do to help developers achieve maximum performance from Xbox is to allow them to ditch DirectX,"  he fumes. "Like Sony, Microsoft should provide full low-level details of the hardware and let the developers create their own libraries which are optimised for the game being developed."

 

So, some developers like to code on the metal.. Like I said?
Sony supports both things.. Libraries and coding on the metal.

What do you think?

[BizioEE]

I have to go out...I\'ll post another time...

Oh and my friend posted a chat he had with a guy from DICE.. (They develop for Xbox, made Rallisport Challange)

Ill try to translate the best I can.

Kudos to Illm and A_Lee_N

ALN: Can you get past Xbox API\'s to code on the metal?

ALN: I found a old quote from before the Xbox was released.

ALN: "More critically, we learn that X-Box code runs at ring 0 - right next to the silicon where normally only operating systems dare to tread. This allows X-Box developers to code \'to the metal\' when necessary, like the PS2."

DICE: Yes its possible. It runs Dx8 but there are more (ie. Nix/TBL) who have played around trying to avoid [the API?]

DICE: Though I dont know to what degree.

DICE: But the Xbox-code runs the usual Dx (or abit modified) so normally you dont see much of the hardware than you do on a regular PC.

ALN: So you dont use this when you\'re developing for it?

DICE: Nope

wow!!1!!111!!!  1 (maybe 2) developers > all developers!!!

Why post this again? I can\'t remember the reason.

1 (maybe 2) developers do not equal everyone.


Eric Jacob

:rolleyes:

So, some  developers like to code on the metal

 

Main Entry: 1some
Pronunciation: \'s&m, for 2 without stress
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English som, adjective & pronoun, from Old English sum; akin to Old High German sum some, Greek hamE somehow, homos same -- more at SAME
Date: before 12th century
1 : being an unknown, undetermined, or unspecified unit or thing
2 a : being one, a part, or an unspecified number of something (as a class or group) named or implied b : being of an unspecified amount or number
3 : REMARKABLE, STRIKING
4 : being at least one -- used to indicate that a logical proposition is asserted only of a subclass or certain members of the class denoted by the term which it modifies


We had a debate about this, thats why I posted it.

thats funny AlteredBeast, cause I said the same thing about developers who did not like the ps2

[Living-In-Clip]

What\'s there to debate here? I\'m just curious. Are we suppose to be debating the comment made by Free Radical? If so - what are we going to debate? They clearly stated their opinion on the matter, therefor we can\'t debate that. Are we suppose to debate on if other developers feel the same way? We can\'t, because no other developers have complained about this (to my knowledge).

I\'m just not clear on the debating point of the thread.

Is it should MS support both DX8 and also low-level coding? If that is the point - than yes, they should.

:rolleyes:

Also, if we are going to start doing english lessons in the forum, then I think we should point out the title of this thread.

"Console developers don\'t like DX8?"

When infact, it is a quote from Free Radical, which means they are only one developer . Not developers.

OH and for the record , I don\'t like DirectX . Infact, I think most the games have a very bland look to them (note: I said most). A distinct look, you could say.

Why this thread is relevant?

Because there are members at these forums who naivly think that Xbox lets developers have the same amount of freedom they want through coding on the metal like PS2 allows them to. Hell we even devoted one whole thread to that debate.

http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20439&pagenumber=2

I think it\'s funny how you make things up. You can code to the metal for the xbox, only it is far easier. You tell me what devs want, then if you post what I know you will, let\'s quote some devs and see how many actually prefer the PS2 archetecture to the xbox\'s. I\'ll save us both some time, the answer is none. Like I said above, the xbox is old archetecture, but it still kicks ass. Why revent the wheel?

There are more of these quotes if you follow the above link. (Might not have been the best quote I chose, but for the full effect, just follow that link above.

When I or Fast would post something like that, it would be questioned by especially those naiv members. Now that a console developer and on top of that a 3rd party and a another developer who develops for Xbox gets loud about it - some might realise who was right all along. The truth hurts doesn\'t it?

[BizioEE]

We should listen to the opinions of many other developers...and...even in this case...we\'d have nothing to debate...

coding on the metal...why not on the XBox ?  I\'ll do a research...

...and about

OH and for the record , I don\'t like DirectX . Infact, I think most the games have a very bland look to them

...it\'s due to some "un-talented" devs who mostly have been developing on PCs and have no idea how to push a fixed harware...not DirectX in itself !

Now that a console developer and on top of that a 3rd party and a another developer who develops for Xbox gets loud about it - some might realise who was right all along. The truth hurts doesn\'t it?

what truth ?  even if you code on the metal you can\'t run a game like Doom3 on PS2 without a drastic drop in graphics...

...however I\'ll do a research about coding on metal on the XBox...

Why this thread is relevant?

Because there are members at these forums who naivly think that Xbox lets developers have the same amount of freedom they want through coding on the metal like PS2 allows them to.

find members who said that!(please,don\'t show me one single quote from one single member)  we are not dev and we don\'t know about coding on the metal...

some of us think XBox give more freedom in developing games overall...no references to coding on metal...

This Thread is insignificant!

what truth ?even if you code on the metal you can\'t run a game like Doom3 on PS2 without a drastic drop in graphics...

- Quote by BizioEE, someone who\'s knowhow and experience is absolutely NULL. Opinion != Fact.

find members who said that!(please,don\'t show me one single quote from one single member) we are not dev and we don\'t know about coding on the metal...

I won\'t mention any names or else this could get into one nasty bashing festival. The members who are targeted will know. Besides, I posted a link (duh), you can do the research on your own.

[BizioEE]

- Quote by BizioEE, someone who\'s knowhow and experience is absolutely NULL. Opinion != Fact.

(ID asserted that...not me...)

well...I could say the same about you...don\'t you agree?

[Bobs_Hardware]

you people need to chill out..

LIC.. Fastson never asked anyone to debate about this, he asked what people thought, just because it is posted in the debate forum doesnt mean everything in here is debateable.. Fastson posted something saying that at the very least, one developer thinks that being forced to use DirectX is inhibiting them, then he asked what everyone else thought..

When infact, it is a quote from Free Radical, which means they are only one developer . Not developers.

There are more out there..

I think its like this (Im just speculating).. PC developers (or console developers who are used to/used to work(ing) on the PC) who are used to DirectX like it. The like how easy it is to develop for it.

But it does not give you as much freedom to do what you want.
On PS2 that is possible.. Like Free Radical said, it lets you develop your own techniqes that takes more advantage of the hardware..

From an old interview:

Developers for the first PlayStation complained that the libraries didn’t let them hit the metal enough, developers for PlayStation 2 are complaining that they have to hit the metal too often. I suppose there’s no pleasing some people. As the PS2’s development libraries improve however I think there will be a lot less complaining going on.

Now we are there.. Libraries on the PS2 have got much, much better. (At first, there were none.. Namco developed Ridge Racer V and Tekken Tag without almost no libraries)
Some developers (note: Not all) like that freedom..

LIC.. Fastson never asked anyone to debate about this, he asked what people thought, just because it is posted in the debate forum doesnt mean everything in here is debateable.. Fastson posted something saying that at the very least, one developer thinks that being forced to use DirectX is inhibiting them, then he asked what everyone else thought..

Exacly, thanks Bob

well...I could say the same about you...don\'t you agree?

I think you\'re forgeting some key points here...
[list=1]

• I am a software engineer and do hold experience.
  
• I have coded "on the metal", therefore I know out of experience what freedom you "could" get.
  
• I never played "wise-boy" and said that Doom3 would be or wouldn\'t be possible on PS2 without drops in graphics. In fact, I think it\'s pretty pathetic to say something like that without even having any experience what so ever.

But, as it seems my opinions and points get seriously questioned by some members around here, even if they come from experience - so it does lighten up my day when a Xbox dev and 3rd parties come to confirm what I\'ve been saying all along. And Bizio, what valuable experience do you hold? ;)

[GmanJoe]

BS Degree?