"Jaggies" question

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The PS2 is a piece of dodgy DVD-ROM
drive.
How I wish SEGA will manufacture the PS2 instead!!!
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:rolleyes:
yeah, i want a dvd rom that makes clicking sounds

[nO-One]

Paul\'s signature
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The PS2 is a piece of dodgy DVD-ROM
drive.
How I wish SEGA will manufacture the PS2 instead!!!
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I\'ve been thinking about this sig, if Sega would manufacture the PS.2 instead of Sony would that make it any better?

I dont think its Sony\'s fault btw. Antialiasing was hardly implemented in games back in the beggining of 1999 when the PS2 hardware specs were first shown to public. - TheDaywalker

No, jus about every Dreamcast game that I\'ve run across has some form of Anti-Aliasing... although as far as I know, only one game impliments FSAA.. and that\'s Ready 2 Rumble Boxing 2. I mean.. you can see it plain as day on VGA with PSO. The screen is split up into several "blocks" which get progressivly blurryier from the bottom to the top. It really cleans up the image on a normal TV where the low resolution helps hide the jaggies also.. but on VGA it does next to nil except dull the textures and leaves the jaggies.

previous gen of machine(N64, PC cards) for YEARS already - Paul

PC\'s have always been years ahead of consoles in terms of technology retard. Every five years or so.. a new console comes out with capabilities to push more polys.. but can\'t add the new effects that have been pioneered since the time of their launch. PC\'s can.. and surpass consoles within a year or two tops. The N64 had texture Anti-Aliasing.. not FSAA or Edge Anti-Aliasing. Texture Anti-aliasing is a much simpler and power consumption friendly technique.. but it made the N64 looks blurry as all hell. No real fine detail at all.. and jaggies were still everywhere. The point is moot

if Sega would manufacture the PS.2 instead of Sony would that make it any better? - nO-One

No.. it would just make the PS2 deadder. Sega + Hardware = failure. Sad but true... expecially since their games are top notch in most instances.

Paul: Have you fixed your PS2 yet or are you still stamping your feet and crying like a lil 5 year old bytch? This crusade of yours is getting awfully old.. and if you continue I can\'t see you with a very long future at these forums. People will get tired of it, and you\'ll be dealt with after everyone\'s done laughin at you.

Everyone else: There is no excuse for jaggies or shimmeries. We\'ve already seen that the PS2 hardware is fully capable of handling the "problem" will little hit to hardware preformance when applied right. The damned thing is 3 years old and we\'re still seeing jaggies even tho we know it\'s capable of getting rid of them. That\'s inexcusable.. Lazy Devs, hard to program hardware.. whatever. Dosen\'t matter. They should be gone.. and I\'m surprised more of you aren\'t as upset about it. Christ, compaired to the competitions games, many PS2 games are downright embarassing. Even the 4 year old Dreamcast that\'s only "one tenth" as powerful has games which have as of yet not been matched by the PS2 graphically. That\'s pitiful. Thank god they have some of the best games around, or else the whole generation would be just one big joke on Sony as far as I\'m concerned.

Bleh..

I cant believe you still think jaggies is a problem.
It was a huge problem in Ridge Racer V and Burnout..

But that’s all over, if the devs want it to be.

[Bobs_Hardware]

You never saw the NTSC version of FFX  

[Paul2]

I have a question.

Does jaggies have anything to do with the fact that ps2 have only 4 megabytes of VRAM while Dreamcast have 8 megabytes of it?

I heard developers complaining this 4 mb vram isn\'t enough for them.  Something to do with performance hit if Anti-antializing are implement.  That\'s why some earlier games run at 640 x 480 (interlaced) instead of progressive scan.  IF it run at progressive scan mode, it can\'t get any texture then or something like that.

Sony claim it can do aa without much of a performance hit by using other different method.  I guess I have to wait a year or two to see how graphic have improve.  (Final Fantasy XII)

Does jaggies have anything to do with the fact that ps2 have only 4 megabytes of VRAM while Dreamcast have 8 megabytes of it?

No it doesn\'t.

I heard developers complaining this 4 mb vram isn\'t enough for them. Something to do with performance hit if Anti-antializing are implement. That\'s why some earlier games run at 640 x 480 (interlaced) instead of progressive scan. IF it run at progressive scan mode, it can\'t get any texture then or something like that.

Correct - to a certain extent. 4 MB-VRAM is enough for the purpose it serves on the PS2. While on conventional systems (Xbox, PC, Dreamcast) the VRAM is used to save not only the framebuffer (mostly double buffered), but also cached textures. On the PS2, textures are not cached and are saved in the main system RAM. So, the PS2 only needs 4 MB to save display lists (polygons) and the double framebuffer.  The rest can be used to stream over textures but take only very little space away. To give you a fair idea, PS2 should be well able to have more textures per frame than Dreamcast games.

Developers complaining about too little RAM is only because they used the 4 MB-VRAM to cach textures and therefore had problems and complained. The PS2 though was not designed to function like this.

[Bobs_Hardware]

Sony claim it can do aa without much of a performance hit by using other different method. I guess I have to wait a year or two to see how graphic have improve. (Final Fantasy XII)

PS2 games have had AA ever since the launch of the system in USA.  Summoner by Volition was the first company to break the code, and it was also implemented by Namco in Tekken Tag (both games it took no performance hit [although with Summoner you\'d never know.. that game has horrible graphics and framerate ])

Some dev\'s just don\'t put it in for whatever reasons

//
I\'ve been thinking about this sig, if Sega would manufacture the PS.2 instead of Sony would that make it any better?
//

I\'m not gonna argue anymore on this matter especially with Bobs brains since there\'s not much neuron cells left in there.

Just to clarify the quote above:
I meant it would be MUCH better if SEGA has the licensed to manufacture PS2..it don\'t mean SEGA design or market the thing. The Saturn and DC has never prove to be any problem after all these years. That is an attestment to manufacturing quality and control.

The PSX has single handedly put the term "disc skipping" into the common vocabulary of the mdern English speaking world.

like we dont remember the fiasco that happened to the DC launch with non-booting disks

Actually, the DC has had several problems with the GD-Rom lazer going out early on, and still with it\'s controller ports going dead. Go to your local videogame repair shop and ask them how many DC\'s they\'ve had to fix because of faulty controller ports or burnt up GD roms. That number is also not truely compairable, since there are by far many more PS2\'s than DC\'s out there.. hence more problems.  Equal up their total sales while keeping the defect ratio in tact, and I\'ll bet the PS2 still has more problems.. but the numbers will be alot closer to each other than you are willing to admit.

The biggest rate of defalt in the PS2 was in roughly the first 6 months of launch. Most all consoles have serious hardware problems jus after launch. The Xbox had them with disk scratches, the DC had them with GD-Rom lazers going out, and so far the NGC is the only console this generation that I haven\'t really heard a peep out of due to faulty hardware.

Saturn defect numbers, as with most things Saturn, are much harder to come by... so I can\'t quite argue that point due to lack of information.

Does jaggies have anything to do with the fact that ps2 have only 4 megabytes of VRAM while Dreamcast have 8 megabytes of it?

I heard developers complaining this 4 mb vram isn\'t enough for them. Something to do with performance hit if Anti-antializing are implement. That\'s why some earlier games run at 640 x 480 (interlaced) instead of progressive scan. IF it run at progressive scan mode, it can\'t get any texture then or something like that. - Paul2

Hah, what are you.. paul\'s good twin who can actually ask questions and critique without looking like a brat who\'s stuck in time out?

Anyhow.. seven pretty much answered your question, but I have to lil factoids to add.

1. It\'s obviously dosen\'t have much to do with the Vram considering the Xbox has 0 mb of Vram in it. Instead, the Xbox runs off of 64mb of unified ram. I\'m pretty sure the PS2 could do this as well with a preformance hit, because it wasn\'t designed with that type of dataflow in mind. The pipelines to the PS2\'s 32mb of Main System Ram simply aren\'t fast enough to transfer textures as quickly as they are needed. (Which is why the 4mb Vram/instruction-cache and ultimately the GS are now on the EE.. since that allows it to have fatter and faster pipes.. as well as lower production costs ) While it may make some of the lower tech games look better than they currently do, it could never be used as a permenant solution and ultimately would never be as powerful as simply programing it right with fully optimised code. (An ideal solution that hasn\'t been fullfilled yet)

2. The PS2 is fully capable of utilizing progressive scan in-game, as demonstrated by Tekken 4. It\'s not a widely used programming technique as of now.. but it is possible. No current or planned Xbox or NGC game has progressive scan in game to the best of my knowlage.. although there are several games for those consoles which use it durring FMV\'s, same as the PS2.

Originally posted by SonyFan


2. The PS2 is fully capable of utilizing progressive scan in-game, as demonstrated by Tekken 4. It\'s not a widely used programming technique as of now.. but it is possible. No current or planned Xbox or NGC game has progressive scan in game to the best of my knowlage.. although there are several games for those consoles which use it durring FMV\'s, same as the PS2.

Hmm.. I heard all Xbox games (except a few) support progressive scan.
Im not sure if the same thing goes for GC though.

Progressive Scan on PS2 is just getting started. Tekken 4 was the first game (like you said), Socom is the second and Burnout 2 is the third
More to come.

I could be wrong.. I\'m not completely infallable after all. From my understanding tho, PS2 is the first console to use PS in-game. Xbox was first to do it with FMV\'s and cut scenes.

EDIT: Yup, I did some quick checking and I was wrong. I had my outputs crossed. Xbox supports PS in-game but won\'t do it for DVD movies. Still, the point stands.. PS2 can do PS in game, and without much of a preformance hit it seems based on screenshots of Tekken and SOCOM. (Haven\'t seen screenies of Burnout2 yet)

1. It\'s obviously dosen\'t have much to do with the Vram considering the Xbox has 0 mb of Vram in it. Instead, the Xbox runs off of 64mb of unified ram. I\'m pretty sure the PS2 could do this as well with a preformance hit, because it wasn\'t designed with that type of dataflow in mind. The pipelines to the PS2\'s 32mb of Main System Ram simply aren\'t fast enough to transfer textures as quickly as they are needed. (Which is why the 4mb Vram/instruction-cache and ultimately the GS are now on the EE.. since that allows it to have fatter and faster pipes.. as well as lower production costs  ) While it may make some of the lower tech games look better than they currently do, it could never be used as a permenant solution and ultimately would never be as powerful as simply programing it right with fully optimised code. (An ideal solution that hasn\'t been fullfilled yet)

Actually Sonyfan, the PS2 was designed to stream textures from the main RAM. Similar to Xbox, PS2 features a hyprid UMA. As the PS2 was specifically designed for, the textures are saved in a compressed state in the main-RAM and streamed over when needed by the Graphics Synthesizer. The bus though between GS and EE is only 1.2 GB/s, but that\'s plenty for the amount of data being sent to the GS (uncompressed textures & display lists). Jak and Daxter is the only game as of yet that uses the PS2 the way it was ment to.
On Xbox, you are in much more bandwidth need simply because you only have 6.4 GB/s with lots more data being transfered back and forth.

Just to add: the EE and GS now being produced on one chip does not feature faster buses - theoretically it could, but it doesn\'t.