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Author Topic: 9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?  (Read 5698 times)

Offline luckee
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2002, 07:09:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow


No offense Luckee, but you need to learn more about what you are talking about.


We are could stand to learn more about this, so dont point fingers. Id venture that 98% of the members in this forum dont know enough about any of the subjects we are discussing. MOst people wont know b/c most aren\'t directly involved. We are all speculating and reguritating rhetoric mixed in with facts, mixed in with media, mixed in with opinion..etc..etc.

ONe thing to remember is we are all entitled to state and have our own opinions in these matters. Even those that say kill em all and let "god" sort them out..
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Offline dajo
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2002, 07:14:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ace


Is that a jab at me?

Ace


No Ace, it\'s sarcasm.....

I agree with much that you have said Ace.

I have strong views and opinions on terrorism and radical Islamic followers. I have read many articles, books, and information about radical Islamics.

I don\'t want to express my feelings, cause it\'s a waste of time to do so here. Many of these kids(and adults) have no clue as to what they are talking about, and I have refrained from posting in these topics because I do have such a strong disagreement with many. I posted a few simple expressions of my thoughts. And I am now done with this topic.

If I continue to express my thoughts and opinions, I might piss someone off and they might leave the forums. I can\'t go chasing away all the "great members" here, now can I?
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Offline Samwise
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2002, 07:17:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
I have to disagree Samwise, our generation is crap.  I don\'t think the generation that fought WW2 didn\'t have issues as well, but they came together during a time of crisis to defeat a common enemy of the free world.  Our generation seems more concerned with having a good time and not owning up to responsibility.  I am not saying this applies to everyone because it most definitely doesn\'t.
I can\'t really argue with that - it\'s your opinion and you\'re entitled to it.

Personally my life philosophy is to have fun and make life worth living - carpe diem I guess. Does that mean I wouldn\'t fight, say, Saddam Hussein if he invaded my country, threatning to take away all the things I love (freedom, in one word)? Hell no! Because a life without freedom is not worth living IMO. And that\'s why I wouldn\'t want to live anywhere but here (or another western country for that matter).

EDIT: Dajo, you might think you\'re right. But so does everyone else - opinions are like assholes, everyone\'s got one. Don\'t take things/discussions so seriously. It\'s not worth it. :)
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Offline Ace
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2002, 07:17:50 AM »
OK, I was just curious. I guess I didn\'t catch it because I get too worked up about this stuff. I don\'t want to create any enemies here either.

Ace
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Offline GigaShadow
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2002, 07:18:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dajo


No Ace, it\'s sarcasm.....

I agree with much that you have said Ace.

I have strong views and opinions on terrorism and radical Islamic followers. I have read many articles, books, and information about radical Islamics.

I don\'t want to express my feelings, cause it\'s a waste of time to do so here. Many of these kids(and adults) have no clue as to what they are talking about, and I have refrained from posting in these topics because I do have such a strong disagreement with many. I posted a few simple expressions of my thoughts. And I am now done with this topic.

If I continue to express my thoughts and opinions, I might piss someone off and they might leave the forums. I can\'t go chasing away all the "great members" here, now can I?


I have to agree with you Dajo, the more I post the angrier I get at the ignorance of some.  Its best not to post on this topic anymore.
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Offline SonyFan
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2002, 07:21:11 AM »
Quote
WTF... where did you get this information? Native Americans celebrating the World Trade Center attacks? What are these schools teaching you now a days? Some revisionist history it seems. Our countries growth was "Manifest Destiny" and you wouldn\'t have what you do today was it not for that.- Giga


I got that information from NA newsgroups and PBS documentaries. Good god, you don\'t think they support the Palestinians?? You don\'t think they\'ve commited terrorist attacks against Americans? And yet you seem to think I didn\'t pay attention in school or had wacked teachers? Good god man, I haven\'t even been to collage.. and you have. Where\'s your excuse for NOT knowing what their sentiment was???



As for Manifest Destiny.. that document is simply a load of horse shit. It\'s a justification for genocide.. we were "Doing the natives and land good by bringing our enlightened society to their lands." It reminds me of something Hitler would have written to explain how he was doing the Jews a favor by killing them. Certainly, their slave labor would have been a valuable resource in building Germany into a mighty country had Germany not lost the war. Does that make it right because the German\'s considered it their "Destiny" to cleanse the "Jewish Heathens" from the face of earth. For chists sake man, listen to what you\'re saying here. Yes, while I do enjoy living in this nation that, like most others, was built on the bones of the conquered.. I cannot help but look back and see what we did as morally and irreprehensibly WRONG in EVERY sence of the word. While I don\'t condone giving all of America back to the NA\'s, I do think we should take care of them as they are the last link to this nation\'s great history preceding us.. and should recognise the signs - the sights and sounds of other countries who are going through a similar period as we did and TRY not to make the same mistakes again. Learn from the past.. it\'s called advancement.


Quote
I am so sick of this politically correct BS. - Giga


It\'s not political correctness.. hell if you\'ve been here long enough you should know by now that I\'m one of the least PC guys on this forum. It\'s about doing what\'s morally right man.. not just backing the gov\'t in whatever they see fit to do. I\'m not telling you that you should feel bad.. I\'m sayin you should look at our past and LEARN from the mistakes we\'ve made and we should try to build a better humanity from there. Christ, no wonder that after 2000 years of cultural and scientific advancement.. we\'re right were we\'ve always been. At each other\'s throats, but this time with bigger and better weapons.

Quote
This Y generation should be called "Clinton Youth", bunch of sickening pacifist do nothings. - Giga


Could be worse.. I could be a "Bush Youth" and simply bomb your house for flaming me. :rolleyes:

Quote
Why don\'t you talk to some of the people that fought in WW2 who were only 18-19 years old at the time. Instead of going to college and playing with their PS2\'s they served their country without hesitation. Would you do the same? - Giga


Funny.. here I am sitting in a room full of Civil War memorabilia and more books on it than you could read in your lifetime.. staring up at a picture of a man crying to his buddies at the Vietnam wall.. listening to Sullivan Bellou set to the tone of Ashokan Farewell, and you\'re lecturing ME about my devotion to this country and my will to fight. How about you go back a about a year from this date with the forum search and look up that thread where I was encouraging other members here to join the military.. not to mention informing people on how to register for Selective Service (which is a law anyhow). I myself DID attempt to join the military, but was rejected due to two factors. I\'m an athesmatic and I am my father\'s only son. One I could possibly skirt around with a bit of help from the recruiter.. the other I could not.

As for talking with veterans.. both my father and my uncle are Vietnam vets as well. My father wouldn\'t talk much about it, since as he said "If you weren\'t there.. you couldn\'t possibly understand". However my uncle has some hilarious stories of taking blindfolded Vietnameese POWs about 5 feet of the ground and pushing them out of the helicopter in order to get them to reveal intelligence.

But of course, I wouldn\'t know anything about respecting American veterans or the defense of the American way of life because I\'m a "Clinton Genner" :rolleyes:

Quote
I just can\'t see your justification of what happened on 9/11 in any of your posts. - Giga


WTF should I have to justify it? I didn\'t do it. Should I have been admiting to something.. even if I\'m innocent, I guess you could call up the Homeland security council and still feel like you got "Something Done". :Rolleyes:

Quote
Bringing Native Americans into it is like mixing apples and oranges. - Giga


How so? I only brought them into the conversation because you brought the Palestinians into the convo. Their situations are errily similar, so I think it is the perfect contrast to discuss the Isriel/Palestine issue against. After all, most people feel sympathy for the NA\'s, (even if only when confronted by it) but don\'t feel sympathy for the Palestinians. Seems a bit hippocrytical to me.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2002, 07:29:04 AM »
SonyFan, your argument is circular.  You did justify the 9/11 attacks by comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans and thus sympathizing with the view that our foreign policy brought these attacks on us.  Are you a NA by chance?  I have never heard someone ramble on about this topic like you do.  

As for what is morally right... :rolleyes: your role model Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what is morally wrong with this country.

If you start bringing up compensation, why not include African Americans?  Hell, why not make every Anglo American pay every non Anglo reparations for all the evil crimes our ancestors did.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2002, 07:33:57 AM by GigaShadow »
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Offline Samwise
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2002, 07:32:58 AM »
I\'m not pretending to know what SonyFan thinks, but I\'ll take a shot at answering the circular statement - just because he can see/sympatize with the Palestinians/NA\'s doesn\'t necessarily mean he\'s justifying what the terrorists did. Or am I missing something?
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2002, 07:37:27 AM »
I think you are missing something.  September 11, 2001 was a terrible day for world - unless you are an Islamic extremist.  Trying to rationalize what fundamentalists do is wrong whether they are Christian, Hindu, Islamic or Native American.  We can agree to disagree as I will not change anyone\'s opinion nor will they change mine.
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Offline luckee
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« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2002, 07:37:54 AM »
I feel similar to what you have stated sammy.
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« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2002, 07:40:25 AM »
I\'m still a bit baffled about your logic. So because one can see the other side of an argument, so to speak, he\'s evil? Not a patriot? A terrorist perhaps? Bleh... I think we can all agree that what happend a year ago was terrible. It doesn\'t mean we can\'t think rationally about things though [not a stab at you Giga, just a general statement].

EDIT: I think this will conclude my participation in this thread. I\'m not angry at anyone, not even if they think the opposite of me. And we can\'t talk eachother into agreeing anyway, so I\'d rather just stop now. :)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2002, 07:43:47 AM by Samwise »
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Offline mejilan
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9.11.01,Where were you, and what were you doing?
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2002, 08:18:23 AM »
As the first plane hit, I was exiting the subways in downtown Manhattan, about 6 blocks away from the World Trade Center, on my way to work.  A hideous and surreal day, nay, week, ensued.  I wound up taking that entire week off from my courses, I would spontaneously burst into fits of sobbing.  And now, a year later, here we are again.  Only this time I actually work about 3 blocks away, off of Wall Street way downtown.  I\'m sitting at my desk, unable to concentrate on my work, eyes tearing sporadically as I think of what has happened, all of the stories.  *sighs*

I\'d like to think I have a relatively unique perspective on 9/11, being an Israeli/American (/Chilean/Argentine) living in New York currently.  I spent four years (1996-2000) living in the Tel-Aviv area as well, that being Israel, btw.  I\'ve always known that we Americans are generally very close/narrow-minded about world events, but 9/11 truly brought out all of the ugly little truths.  Claims that Jews were inconspicuously absent in very large numbers during the WTC incident... rumors that it was all set up by Israel to discredit the Arab world...  So what if 400 Jews didn\'t show up to work at the Twin Towers that day?  How many people were actually there when the planes hit?  10,000?  Well, on any given business day, upwards to 30-40,000 people could be present, in all.  So of all those that weren\'t there, for whatever reason, is it really a surprise that 400 of them were Jews?  

It\'s all propaganda, of course.  In fact, Osama bin Laden is an American-made/trained/supplied monster, unleashed (successfully) upon the Russians way back when and then left to his own devices.  And now we have to deal with him, finally.  Whoever claimed that bin Laden couldn\'t give a crap about Palestinians, and that they weren\'t involved with 9/11 is absolutely right.  However, Palestinians were cheering in the streets, celebrating the attacks... and they were BY FAR not alone in such activities within the Arab world, American allies or otherwise.

It greatly pains me to see so many of you completely misunderstand exactly what is going on in the Middle East, on both sides of the conflict, currently, and in the past.  Israel is America\'s bitch, fending for scraps of obsolete technology from Bush\'s table?  Please.  Israeli military intelligence, tactics, technology is vastly superior to anything else in the world.  It almost always has been, which is why we are still around despite being surrounded by enemies.  (Yes, Israel is at peace with Jordan and Egypt, but if another Arab World vs. Israel war breaks out, you\'ll see just how long those peace treaties will last.)  I mean, so what if Bush sold Barak a bunch of F-16s?  Scraps, indeed.  Quite frankly, in areas including, but not limited too, military arms, tactical intelligence, world-awareness, stealth, tracking (radar, sonar, whatever) and covert ops, Israel owns America completely.

Of course, all this has nothing to do with anything, really.  I hope I\'ll be forgiven the confusing that may surround me using the term "we" both as an Israeli and an American, as I hold great love and loyalty for both.  Anywho, the Israeli government does not condone or practice any form of terrorism.   While it could be disputed that Israel\'s covert operations could be construed as a form of terrorism, Israel tracking down and assassinating the final Palestinian terrorist survivor responsible for the massacre that marred the Munich Olympic games in the 70s isn\'t terrorism, but a retliatory response to terrorism.  Israel committing attack choppers to surgical strikes against factories and plants that are suspected of being part of Arafat\'s terrorist machine (which will very much survive him, and is probably truly beyond his control at this point) is not terrorism.  Soldiers firing gas and rubber bullets at mobs incensed to storm military fortifications, mobs wielding rocks, no less, is not terrorism.

However, attacks against cafes, discotheques, clubs, restaurants, malls, bazaars, market places, shopping centers, and residential areas, whose only purpose is to cause grief, mental anguish, morale loss, and the loss of civilian life, IS terrorism.  Attacks whose only purpose is what I listed above, and not intended to limit or damage a nation\'s military, technological, or strategic might, but a civilian population at large, are forms of terrorism.  This is exactly what 9/11 was all about, anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully deluded.  These forms of attacks cannot be justified or negotiated over.  The source and means of such attacks MUST be eliminated.  That has always been Israel\'s position, and it should be America\'s as well.  At least Osama bin Laden doesn\'t hide behind a human wall composed of his own sons and daughters, as Palestinians are wont to do.

My intention with this post is not to change anyone\'s mind, only to inform as best I can, and allow others to draw their own conclusion.  Those that allow their governments and media to formulate their opinions (be these Americans, Israelis, Afghanis, or Palestinians) are lacking the crucial knowledge to even BEGIN to enter such discussions.  I am neither fully (as in 100%) pro American nor pro Israeli.  I love America.  I love Israel.  I can\'t stand the current American government, or the Israeli one, both for completely different reasons.  And a final word of advice... in these situations, there are neither true "good guys" or total "bad guys."  Nothing is ever simply black and white, especially not religion, politics, or whatever results when they are tragically combined.
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Offline SonyFan
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« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2002, 08:21:30 AM »
Quote
SonyFan, your argument is circular. You did justify the 9/11 attacks by comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans and thus sympathizing with the view that our foreign policy brought these attacks on us. Are you a NA by chance? I have never heard someone ramble on about this topic like you do. - Giga


No, your argument has reached a dead end. Like I said in the other 9/11 post, I never ONCE tried to justify what Al-Queda did on 9/11. I sympathise with the Palestinians.. but they\'re fighting Isriel.. not us. I can understand how they\'d be happy about us being attacked, considering we\'re suppliying their enemy with tanks, guns, and money. As I distinctly remember posting earlier tho.. not ONE of the 9/11 hijackers were Palestinian to the best of my knowlage. Most of them were Saudi or Egyptian. You\'re confusing Al-Queda vs. America with Isriel vs. Palestine. Now, I support going into Afghanistan and rooting out Al-Queda forces by any means necessarry.. which happened to include toppling the Taliban Gov\'t who was protecting them. I do NOT support the aid of Isriel in pushing the Palestinians out of their land. You, don\'t happen to see the distiction between the two groups do you? I would have assumed you would considering you brought up a point that we both agree on: Al-Queda and Osama Bin Laden could give a f*ck all less about the Palestinians. They\'re just a temporary justification he\'s using to recruit more members. Of course, while many Palestinians are members of Al-Queda.. many more so are radicals for the PLA - who\'s actions I understand yet don\'t condone.

Quote
As for what is morally right...  your role model Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what is morally wrong with this country. - Giga


Elaborate. You may see supporting Clinton as something embarrasing or bad, but many others don\'t. Granted, I don\'t think he was a great president.. but he certainly wasn\'t Nixon or LBJ. If you think otherwise, please kindly cut you\'re Rush Limbaugh jerk off hour down to 25 minuites a day. Give it a month.. and you should begin to snap out of it.

Quote
If you start bringing up compensation, why not include African Americans? Hell, why not make every Anglo American pay every non Anglo reparations for all the evil crimes our ancestors did. - Giga


I never said anything about compensation. I simply think we should respect and cherish what we have left of their great culture before it is gone from us forever. I don\'t think this generation should be held responsible for the sins of a past generation. However we should learn from that generation\'s mistakes, and try not to repeat them. That includes NOT taking anymore of their land... and NOT screwing them over when we shortchange them for resources bought off of their reservations such as timber, oil, and animals... which we are still doing regularly.

BTW: I do not consider myself American Indian. There is no moment of hesitation when I fill out a form asking for my ethnicity. I am, however, directly decended from Chief Little Turtle of the Miami Indian tribe. It really sucks when you go to look up the history of your family, and the cultures they came from.. only to find that there really is no culture left because what little bit was left after the geocide was destoryed by the Catholic church in their attempt to "civilize the heathens".. or Manifest Destiny.. how ever you like to put it.

That, and I admire the values and philosophies of the NA people. I can\'t help but get upset when people talk about how it was a good thing that they were wiped out.. that they were uncivilized. How the language of a people who had no words for "Enemy", "Theif", or "Liar".. was considered barbaric and wiped out because it was the white man\'s "Destiny" to do so.

It\'s so funny.. here you sit and preach about America and defending it\'s values.. yet shove Manifest Destiny in my face when that document killed the people who INSPIRED our forefathers to revolt against British opression.. who\'s way of life molded our ideals of freedom and liberty.

You talk to me like I\'m ignorant.. and yet that\'s all I ever hear spewing from your mouth. I think you\'ve argued your way into a corner because of a misplaced sence of "American Pride" and a simple misunderstanding of what I said.. one that you attacked without even trying to understand where I\'m comming from.

Typical.
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Offline mejilan
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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2002, 08:42:46 AM »
Israel\'s policy is not to oust or remove the Palestinians.  Cut a poll of the Israeli people and you\'ll realize that the overwhelming majority are in support of a peaceful Palestinian state, just not one which divides Israeli territory that we MUST keep for security purposes, not one which will result in a divided Jerusalem (even though Israel has never closed off her capital to any religion, Christian, Muslim, or Hebrew.  The cause of the majority of the POLITICAL strife between Israel and Palestine is border disputes and the Israeli settlements along the hazy border (settlements which I feel SHOULD be removed, by the way.)  However, the majority of the attacks that Israel faces, and the inevitable retaliatory/deterant responses are more of a religious nature.  After all, the Palestian youth is brainwashed into fighting a Jihad, a holy war, by corrupt political and religious leaders who promise them that should they give up their lives by taking those of Israelis, they will enter a heaven which will reward them eternally with a harem of 72 virgins.  (Honestly, I can never remember the actual number they are promised, but it was something stupidly high, like that.)  It doesn\'t help when those like the Saudi government award the families of those who "sacrificed themselves" (suicide bombers) financially.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2002, 08:50:45 AM »
You really amaze me SonyFan.   Your ignorance just keeps growing and growing.  Do I need to spell everything out for you?

Clinton:  Lied under oath, committed adultry god knows how many times.  You think Nixon was a great President?  

:laughing:  ok so he did normalize relations with China...

Oh please Native Americans pay no taxes and for the most part rake cash in from casinos and what not.  You make it sound like everyone of NA decent is living on a reservation.  

You are ignorant SonyFan and uneducated.  You should be able to understand what I am referring to without having me spell it out for you.  You continue to throw insults my way so I have decided to fire a few back.  I am not even conservative and it has nothing to do with being Republican, Democrat or Independent.  

Somehow you have managed to turn this from a thread about 9/11 into a crusade to spread awareness of the suffering of Native Americans :rolleyes:

You should go to Washington you would make a good activist.
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