Intelligent discussion for the day...

Originally posted by shockwaves

And the difference between murder and abortion?  Murder is to kill a living, breathing, animal.  To take something that is living, and rip it\'s life away from it without its consent.  Abortion is preventing a collection of cells from reaching the point of being a living animal in the first place.

Like what Titan said,  abortions take place much later then that

A mother usually doesn\'t know shes pregnant until what 2 months after conception?

About not wanting to live with knowing you were the product of a rape?

Reminds me of not wanting to live because of being paralyzed

Plain and simple..no abortion= more dead babies in trash cans and coat hanger abortions which endanger mother and child.

So you ask yourselves, which really is worse?

Originally posted by Clowd


Like what Titan said,  abortions take place much later then that

A mother usually doesn\'t know shes pregnant until what 2 months after conception?

About not wanting to live with knowing you were the product of a rape?

Reminds me of not wanting to live because of being paralyzed

It can remind you of whatever you want it to, that doesn\'t mean it\'s a valid connection.  And I already posted statistics showing that the vast majority of abortions happen less than 3 months into the pregnancy.  88% I believe it was?  In other words, I have hard evidence that what Titan said was wrong, so don\'t use it to back up what you\'re saying.

Abortion is preventing a collection of cells from reaching the point of being a living animal in the first place.

In addition to this: why don\'t we just let the AIDS virus continue to live.  Why bother researching for a cure against AIDS?  Why bother trying to find a cure for the common cold?  The virus and bacteria is a life too, why not let it have the right to live?

shockwaves:

And the difference between murder and abortion? Murder is to kill a living, breathing, animal. To take something that is living, and rip it\'s life away from it without its consent. Abortion is preventing a collection of cells from reaching the point of being a living animal in the first place.

I think the differing definitions of "living" is a big reason why there is so much controversy over abortion.  Everyone has their own ideas about when a person starts to live.  Whether it\'s right when the sperm joins with the egg, or sometime in the development cycle, or when the baby is born.  Until we can agree on this, we will never be able to agree on when abortion is right and when it is wrong.

By the way, an interesting stat for those of you throwing religion in...Catholics are 1% more likely to get an abortion than the average of the general population. Hmm...

The general population consisting of who exactly?  All non-Catholics?  All non-religious people?  You have to remember that because one religion supposedly has a higher abortion percentage than the "general population", doesn\'t mean all religions in the world do.  You can\'t use statistics from one religion and use it as an argument against the thousands of different churches, and the millions and millions of religious people.  Now if you found a statistic showing that religious people overall had a higher abortion rate than non-religious people, then you would have something worth mentioning.

I also question the authenticity of this statistic.  Who was the survey done by?  How many people were surveyed?  And if this 1% statistic is true, so what?  Is 1% really that significant?  With the margin of error, I would consider a percentage that low as being negligible.

Rya:

In addition to this: why don\'t we just let the AIDS virus continue to live.  Why bother researching for a cure against AIDS?  Why bother trying to find a cure for the common cold?  The virus and bacteria is a life too, why not let it have the right to live?

Because a human\'s life is far more precious than a virus\' life.  A virus doesn\'t have a brain, or intelligence.  The death of a virus doesn\'t have an emotional impact on anyone.



My stance on this topic:

In most cases, abortion is wrong.  Yes, even when someone is raped, I believe that they should have the baby, and then put it up for adoption if they can not take care of it themselves.  Every person has a God-given right to live.  Who are we to take that right away from them?

Now whether I think they should keep it legal or not, of course they should keep it legal.  Making it illegal wouldn\'t do a thing to help the situation.  Like others have said, if it was illegal than people would have it done illegally or just try to do it themselves.

Originally posted by IronFist
The general population consisting of who exactly?  All non-Catholics?  All non-religious people?  You have to remember that because one religion supposedly has a higher abortion percentage than the "general population", doesn\'t mean all religions in the world do.  You can\'t use statistics from one religion and use it as an argument against the thousands of different churches, and the millions and millions of religious people.  Now if you found a statistic showing that religious people overall had a higher abortion rate than non-religious people, then you would have something worth mentioning.

I also question the authenticity of this statistic.  Who was the survey done by?  How many people were surveyed?  And if this 1% statistic is true, so what?  Is 1% really that significant?  With the margin of error, I would consider a percentage that low as being negligible.

The General population the average of all people in society.  Comparing this portion (Catholics), to the whole, you see that the average chance of a Catholic getting an abortion is 101% of that of the average chance of someone getting an abortion, regardless of religion.  I know that I can\'t take a statistic, and use to it argue against all religions.  I wasn\'t even looking for information on religion.  I just saw the statistic (In a group of stats compiled by Planned Parenthood, the National Center for Health Statistics, and the Center for Disease Control and Prevention), and found it interesting, since the Catholic Church is officially against abortion.  

Even if 1% is negligible, when you consider the margin of error the statistic could have, it does show at the very least that Catholics aren\'t getting abortions at a lower rate than the average American.



In addition, is a fetus which is still forming and developing any different from a virus, when you really think about it?  Does it really have a brain or intelligence?  Surely not at all points since it was conceived.  It does however feed off of its host, altering her natural habits, patterns, and behaviors.  Or perhaps parasite is a better word, if you want to get that specific.  *shrug*

Shockwaves:

Even if 1% is negligible, when you consider the margin of error the statistic could have, it does show at the very least that Catholics aren\'t getting abortions at a lower rate than the average American.

But how many of those Catholics who get an abortion are strong in their church?  Many people are Catholic by the baptism at their birth only.  My point is, maybe the reason the Catholics have abortions just as much as the average American because those Catholics ARE the average American.  I\'m sure if you took the faithful believers in the Catholic church, and compared that number to the national average, the Catholic church would be much lower.  But I guess it doesn\'t even really matter.

In addition, is a fetus which is still forming and developing any different from a virus, when you really think about it? Does it really have a brain or intelligence? Surely not at all points since it was conceived. It does however feed off of its host, altering her natural habits, patterns, and behaviors. Or perhaps parasite is a better word, if you want to get that specific. *shrug*

Well, like I said different people will have different beliefs on this.  I believe that at one point in the development of the baby, the spirit enters the fetus.  At this point it is alive, and is just like any other human being.  Unfortunately, I don\'t know when in development this event happens.  Because of this, I have to take the position that killing the fetus at any time in development is wrong, because the spirit could be in the fetus at that time.

Don\'t get me wrong though.  I don\'t want to sound ignorant like I believe that it should be an easy choice whether to get an abortion or not.  I understand how hard of a choice this is, for both atheists and religious people.  I hope that no one close to me ever has to make that decision, but if they do, I will support them either way (of course I would try to convince them to keep the baby first).

Well, I know that either way, no matter what your beliefs are, abortion would be a very difficult decision.  After all, it\'s usually something done only by people in pretty desperate situations.  I just think that it should remain up to the individual to decide for themselves, and make their own judgement.  If I were in the position, I don\'t even know that I would want an abortion, or think that it is the right thing.  I just don\'t think that such a decision should be made by some rich government officials off in Washington.  It should be a very personal thing, that each person much search their own soul before doing, and a decision that they really must make on their own.

"A virus doesn\'t have a brain, or intelligence" - Ironfist

Neither does a Zygote.

Rya hit the nail on the head. Everyone I\'ve seen who\'s against abortion so far has been clamoring about the "Sanctity of life". Really now, isn\'t that a bit like the blind leading the blind? Haughty and arrogant too. First off.. what about Warmongers. Many of you claiming "sanctity of life" are also the loudest voices in support of sending troops to Iraq and other middleastern countries. Since when did a fetus who has the "potential" to develop.. become more important than a human who already IS developed? Or what about the fully developed human beings that American human is killing? Are they not as important as a fetus?

Then expand that even farther... which life do you mean by "Sanctity of Life"? (A virus like HIV isn\'t technically alive or not alive Rya - last I heard) Human life only or all life in general? Just intelligent life? At what IQ level does an animal cease to become a "being" and instead becomes a meal? Then what about retards and comatose people who don\'t meet that IQ level? Why are they so precious while a Gorilla in Africa with a higher IQ, personality, and emotion gets shot for it\'s fur or stuck in a cage for yokles to gawk at?

For those who think "because it\'s HUMAN", let me ask you.. what makes humans so much more important than any other life on this planet? Is not all life connected to each other on this planet.. moving, interacting, feeding off of each other? What makes humans anymore special? Seems like a bunch of posin and patting ourselves on the back to me. We measure our success and importance as a species by what we know.. other animals. And only on the aspect of intelligence.. because our staying power and adaptablity has yet to be truely proven. We ARE animals people.. just like every other multicellular creature on earth. We all have one common trait - a butthole which poop comes out of.

And as for potential.. you may as well damn nearly every member on these boards. It only takes 1 sperm to make a child.. and yet everyone here who masturbates or menstruates can be considered a murderer for letting that potential die in a small crusty globule in their underwear. Everytime you "Flog the cannon" you\'re dooming hundreds of potential childred to death." So I guess it\'s not just kittens that Chizzy\'s been killing.. he\'s worse than Charels Manson. o_O

Originally posted by SonyFan


Neither does a Zygote.

Rya hit the nail on the head. Everyone I\'ve seen who\'s against abortion so far has been clamoring about the "Sanctity of life". Really now, isn\'t that a bit like the blind leading the blind? Haughty and arrogant too. First off.. what about Warmongers. Many of you claiming "sanctity of life" are also the loudest voices in support of sending troops to Iraq and other middleastern countries. Since when did a fetus who has the "potential" to develop.. become more important than a human who already IS developed? Or what about the fully developed human beings that American human is killing? Are they not as important as a fetus?

Then expand that even farther... which life do you mean by "Sanctity of Life"? (A virus like HIV isn\'t technically alive or not alive Rya - last I heard) Human life only or all life in general? Just intelligent life? At what IQ level does an animal cease to become a "being" and instead becomes a meal? Then what about retards and comatose people who don\'t meet that IQ level? Why are they so precious while a Gorilla in Africa with a higher IQ, personality, and emotion gets shot for it\'s fur or stuck in a cage for yokles to gawk at?

For those who think "because it\'s HUMAN", let me ask you.. what makes humans so much more important than any other life on this planet? Is not all life connected to each other on this planet.. moving, interacting, feeding off of each other? What makes humans anymore special? Seems like a bunch of posin and patting ourselves on the back to me. We measure our success and importance as a species by what we know.. other animals. And only on the aspect of intelligence.. because our staying power and adaptablity has yet to be truely proven. We ARE animals people.. just like every other multicellular creature on earth. We all have one common trait - a butthole which poop comes out of.

And as for potential.. you may as well damn nearly every member on these boards. It only takes 1 sperm to make a child.. and yet everyone here who masturbates or menstruates can be considered a murderer for letting that potential die in a small crusty globule in their underwear. Everytime you "Flog the cannon" you\'re dooming hundreds of potential childred to death." So I guess it\'s not just kittens that Chizzy\'s been killing.. he\'s worse than Charels Manson. o_O

I believe in the sanctity of life yes.  Do I agree with sending people to Iraq?  No.  Do I agree with bombing Afghanistan killing hundreds maybe thousands of civilians?  No.  Do I agree in bombing Afghanistan at all?  No.

What makes humans more important then any other life on this planet?  Well God said that one sparrow does not fall without him knowing and he says that we are worth more then many sparrows.

I dont understand what you mean about potential.   But I do know once an egg is fertilized it starts the process of creating a new life.  It is my position that we do not have the right to stop this process.

A virus like HIV isn\'t technically alive or not alive Rya - last I heard

Thanks for correcting me, SonyFan.  And really good point in your last paragraph about masturbating and menstrating.

Anyways, why do people bother convincing/forcing the beliefs of others?  Why must pro-lifers force pro-choicers to switch?  Or vice versa?  If we were to do that with every single aspect of life, we might as well all listen to the same music, by the same artist.  We might as well watch the same movie that\'s playing in every theatre.
Yes, there are people who believe in the "sanctity of life" by others don\'t.  Why do so many people have a problem understanding that we are all individuals with unique opinions and that not everyone believes that a tiny zygote is a life or not.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Rya

In addition to this: why don\'t we just let the AIDS virus continue to live.  Why bother researching for a cure against AIDS?  Why bother trying to find a cure for the common cold?  The virus and bacteria is a life too, why not let it have the right to live?

As of now, viruses are classified as non living

For those who have bibles read Psalms 139: 13-17  Especially verse 16

[Titan]

Why not post what it says?

Note verse 16

The Psalmist David:


Psalms 139
Verse 13:

For you yourself produced my kidneys;  You kept me screened off in the belly of my mother.

Verse 14:

I shall laud you because in a fear inspiring way I am wonderfully made.  Your works are wonderfull,  as my soul is very well aware.

Verse 15:

My bones are not hidden from you  When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the Earth

Verse 16:

Your eyes saw even the embryo of me,  And in your book all its parts were written down in writing,  As regards the days when they were formed  And there was not yet one among them.

Verse 17:

So,  to me how precious your thoughts are!  O God,  how much does the grand sum of them amount to!