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Author Topic: Popularity of the US around the world  (Read 7156 times)

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2002, 11:56:33 AM »
Here you go core -

They also say that Truman should have chosen one of the several available ways to compel a Japanese surrender without an atomic bombing of two cities. The most obvious alternative is an American invasion of Japan. Olympic was the code-name given to the planned American invasion of Kyushu, one of the four Japanese home islands, if an atomic bomb were not available by late October. Two separate estimates exist to rate the number of American casualties that would result from such an invasion. A joint war plans committee comprised of the army and navy came to the conclusion that 46,000 Americans would die in an invasion of Kyushu and later Honshu. The number of American wounded averaged three to one during the later years of the war, so according to this estimate, 175,000 American casualties were not out of the question. However, these figures were based on such tentative intelligence that George Marshall, the army’s chief of staff, bluntly rejected them.

A second estimate proposed by Admiral Leahy was much higher. The invasion of Iwo Jima caused 6,200 American deaths, and the U. S. outnumbered the Japanese by four to one. Okinawa cost 13,000 U. S. servicemen, and they outnumbered the Japanese by two and one-half to one. These 13,000 men made up more than 35% of the U. S. landing force. Consequently, Admiral Leahy came to the conclusion that it was absurd to think that any less than 35% of the American force that invaded Japan would be killed. Based on the estimate of 560,000 Japanese soldiers on Kyushu as of early August, Leahy predicted that at very minimum over 250,000 American soldiers would lie dead as a result of an invasion of the Japanese islands.

It was later found that the troop strength on Kyushu was greatly under-estimated, and that by August 6 the Japanese had over 900,000 men stationed on Kyushu, nearly twice as many as thought. Leahy’s estimates that the Americans would have a preponderance, when in fact the 767,000 American soldiers who would comprise the landing force were already greatly outnumbered three months before Operation Olympic was actually to begin. By November, Japanese troop strength could easily double or triple, making between 500,000 and 1,000,000 American deaths conceivable.

These numbers do not even begin to account for the Japanese dead. In Okinawa, twice as many Japanese were killed as Americans. It is therefore plausible that between 100,000 (according to the earliest estimate) and two million soldiers would die in an invasion. This number does not include Japanese civilians dead, which could conceivably have been even higher than the number of dead soldiers.

The Japanese army was already training its civilians to fight with sharpened bamboo poles. According to samurai tradition, there was no more honorable way to die than to do so for Japan and the emperor, and the civilians were quite prepared to take this philosophy to heart. Using sharpened pikes the Japanese could easily prevent a military government from being effective in those towns which the U. S. captured. Futher, and even more brutal, was the training of young children to be “Sherman carpets.” Japanese children were to be strapped with TNT and throw themselves under American tanks, thereby dying in the most honorable way possible--by killing the enemy. It can be assumed that at least as many civilians would have died as soldiers, bringing the totals somewhere around 200,000 to four million Japanese dead, along with the 50,000 to one million American dead, totaling 250,000 to five million total dead.


This can found at http://oror.essortment.com/presidenttruman_rywp.htm
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2002, 12:00:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow

This can found at http://oror.essortment.com/presidenttruman_rywp.htm


thanks for the info Giga

hey can you see if you can find out info on the Yamato ?

i am trying to get figures on how much damage it took to sink her.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2002, 12:02:56 PM »
Yeah I will look - jeez take a look at this though...
\"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.\"  - Churchill
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2002, 12:06:32 PM »
Here it is...

She was met by aircraft of Task Force 58 shortly after noon on April 7th. Attacked in waves, Yamato could do little but absorb the punishment inflicted by at least five 1,000 lb bombs and ten torpedoes. By approximately 1420 hours it was all over; Yamato had capsized to port and exploded. Five of her escorts had been sunk as well. A total of 2,498 men had been lost aboard Yamato, 446 from Yahagi, and a further 721 from the destroyers. The Japanese Navy was effectively kaput. There would be only one more grisly act to play out.

I don\'t think there is an accurate account of exactly what hit and what missed.  We only lost 12 planes though.  As a followup to the picture above - that thing must have been loaded down with a ton of ammo for it go up like that - the ship on the left is a destroyer and shows the scale of the explosion.
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Offline Coredweller
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« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2002, 12:07:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Please post a source Core - not your opinion.  The fact is Japan was ready to sacrifice everyone to prevent the Allies from landing.
And isn\'t that YOUR opinion?  My theory is more logical.  Why DIDN\'T the japanese wage an all-out guerrilla war against US occupation, even after the war ended?  It was because their emperor surrendered to US forces, and ordered his nation to cooperate.  Primary documents obtained after the war have indicated that the Japanese government was extending feelers to the US indicating they were willing to consider surrender, even before the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks.  All they needed was a sufficient display of power to allow the surrender to occur in a face-saving manner.

The only thing left for debate is whether a demonstration of the atomic bomb on an unpopulated island would have been sufficient, or if the deaths of thousands of civilians were required.  You know my opinion, and you\'re never going to find a definitive answer because it\'s a "what-if" question.  You\'re entitled to your opinion, just as I am.
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Offline ooseven
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« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2002, 12:12:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow

I don\'t think there is an accurate account of exactly what hit and what missed.  We only lost 12 planes though.  As a followup to the picture above - that thing must have been loaded down with a ton of ammo for it go up like that - the ship on the left is a destroyer and shows the scale of the explosion.


yeah thanks G :D

i remember hearing storys about what it took to sink the Yamato and the fact that if it was fully loaded and with the ability to refuel.. it could of been a major Thorn in the side of the US Fleets

a bit like a Japanese Version of the Axis Bismark

Big...Heavyly armoured and with enough fire power to sink a small island :eek:
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2002, 12:14:10 PM »
Its not an opinion core - see my post above.  The Japanese would not surrender unless the Emperor remained in power - not a figurehead.  The US wouldn\'t agree.  I am not posting my opinion, all of this is well documented.  I am sorry if I don\'t subscribe to the Revisionist attitudes that seem to run rampant these days.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2002, 12:17:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ooseven


yeah thanks G :D

i remember hearing storys about what it took to sink the Yamato and the fact that if it was fully loaded and with the ability to refuel.. it could of been a major Thorn in the side of the US Fleets

a bit like a Japanese Version of the Axis Bismark

Big...Heavyly armoured and with enough fire power to sink a small island :eek:


yeah ooseven that was one scary ship, but sadly the era of the super dreadnaught is over. :(  I saw the USS New Jersey this summer in Philadelphia and it was pretty impressive, even if it is outfitted with cruise missles and the latest technology.  Still the size of the main guns and the sheer tonnage is overwhelming.
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Offline shockwaves
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« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2002, 12:30:35 PM »
Well, I missed a lot in this topic so far.  I\'ll just start with where it seems to have gone though (at least where it was semi-recently).

There is no question that an invasion of Japan was something we should have tried to avoid at any cost.  It would have been far too difficult, far too risky, and far too deadly to pull off.  I just don\'t think that the bombing of specifically Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the right thing to do at all.  Perhaps selecting an island, or an open area of land, and dropping it there to demonstrate its power to the Japanese would have been better.  We should have showed that to them, then given them a chance to surrender.  If they had clearly been unwilling to do so, then move on to actual targets.

However, even if we were chosing targets for these bombs, why Hiroshima?  Nagasaki is even a bit understandable...it was an industrial city.  But why Hiroshima?  No military, no major industry.  It was a civilian city.  I just can\'t understand why we pick that location.  Why not find a place where the military is concentrating, and bomb that?  Or find a place where something is being produced for the war, and target that?  Why civilians?  That\'s what I can\'t forgive.

As for how the rest of the world sees us, I think we are the most hated nation in the world.  Do we deserve that?  Partially, but not totally.  We have done many wrong things, some of which have been pointed out by ooseven and others, so I won\'t go into detail on them.  However, some of it is simply a case of having a bad image.  The Cold War certainly didn\'t help, with the Russians trying to push anti-american mentalities on whoever would accept them.  People claiming we are the enemy of a religion aren\'t helping either.  Also, when we have leaders, whether it is Bush, or Clinton before him, that are mocked, and made to look stupider in Bush\'s case, and less honest in Clinton\'s, than they probably were, that doesn\'t help either.  Sure, we do more than our share of bad things to support these problems, whether it is overthrowing a democratically elected leader in order to put a dictator in control whose policies we agree with more, or dropping an atomic bomb on a city or two, as we are talking about.  Basically, I think we are worse than we see ourselves as being, but better than a lot of the rest of the world thinks.  Somewhere in between...a nice happy medium.
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Offline Coredweller
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« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2002, 12:31:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Its not an opinion core - see my post above.  The Japanese would not surrender unless the Emperor remained in power - not a figurehead.  The US wouldn\'t agree.  I am not posting my opinion, all of this is well documented.  I am sorry if I don\'t subscribe to the Revisionist attitudes that seem to run rampant these days.
Your statement about the status of the Emperor is irrelevant.  In the end this argument cannot be solved because it is a matter of opinion about a "what if" scenario.  No matter what the motivations of the Japanese leadership, or the US government, I think we can both agree that the weapons were used as a display of power to bring about the end of the war.  They served no tactical purpose.  So you\'re only left with the question: would it have been a sufficient display of power to demonstrate them on a lightly populated island or were the deaths of thousands of civilians required?  

Your argument would be better served by stating that Truman was worried about our limited supply of fissionable Uranium, and decided to err on the side of caution by demonstrating the weapons in the most horrifying way possible.  That makes sense, but it doesn\'t free him, or us from all blame for it.  I submit that the Japanese were waiting for a good excuse to surrender, and demonstrating the weapons on an unpopulated area would have also provided that excuse.
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2002, 12:37:41 PM »
Your blame statement implies guilt and that is opinion.  I don\'t share it.  The Japanese started the war against us and we finished it.  Many Americans, especially veterans have no regrets.
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Offline Titan

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« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2002, 12:41:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jar O Pickles
you know whats funny japan is the only contry we\'ve ever dropped a nuke on and they love us to death they cant get enough of american culture maybe theyre still worried we\'ll drop another one if they get out of line
maybe we should have dropped more nukes then everyone would love us


Nah. So many countries have nukes now, they\'d nuke us :) Hey, then we\'d love THEM to death.
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Offline Eiksirf
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« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2002, 01:43:38 PM »
To death.  You got that right, heh.

After all this, what do we learn?  War sucks.

When it\'s the business of killing people, it\'s hard not to upset somebody, don\'t you think?

And it seems as long as we\'re willing to let what happened in the past fuel how we\'re going to feel in the present, oh I don\'t know, history is doomed to repeat itself?

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Offline square_marker
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« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2002, 02:14:13 PM »
American customs can spread all over the world.... no one is forcing any country to accept them.

As for invading Iraq with the aid or other countries....

Time and time again Saddam has proven to be very dangerous to the world.  This isnt a US-Iraq issue, and the US isnt in it for the oil.  This is a Saddam-world issue.  

When the french were invaded by the nazies, lead by hitler, other countries didnt sit back and say, well it is a french-germany problem.  true, this war and WW2 are competely different, but my point is that if the world wants to be a better place; we must work together to that goal and not let one country try to do it all.  yea US is considered a superpower, but in another 15 years, who knows.

and another point i am angered with is this anti-americanism

so you dont like what our military is doing or what bush is pulling out of his ass this time.  thats fine... protest that.  i hate seeing US flags being burnt on cnn, that is taking a shot at all of america.  i am pretty sure all of america isnt the problem.

EDIT

ill list my respected and unrespected countries and then hopefully get some harsh feedback for my views...and why am i doing this?  cuz i am american....:rolleyes:

respected:
1. Japan
2. China
3. South Korea
4. Russia
5. Austraila
6. India

unrespected
1. France
2. Italy
3. North Korea
4. Pakistan
5. A few middle eastern countries
« Last Edit: December 05, 2002, 02:20:42 PM by square_marker »
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Offline shockwaves
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« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2002, 02:17:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by square_marker
Time and time again Saddam has proven to be very dangerous to the world.  This isnt a US-Iraq issue, and the US isnt in it for the oil.  This is a Saddam-world issue.  
 

Show me one other nation that would go to war with Iraq if we didn\'t.
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