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Author Topic: Metal Gear Solid twin snakes  (Read 2821 times)

Offline Jumpman

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Metal Gear Solid twin snakes
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2004, 06:12:46 PM »
Careful Unicorn, all that thinking is starting to hurt your brain.
Who is this anamoly we call Jumpman? How is he able to do what he does and still survive after years of torment? It seems he feeds on the hate, growing with an intense passion to put unassuming members in their place.

Offline Knotter8
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2004, 04:55:21 AM »
Admittedly MGS depends alot on it\'s story driven mechanic. So, if you do not like such \'serious\' storylines or just not in videogames in general ; then you\'re bound to have a problem with any MGS game, true. *edit : i c in Jumpman\'s post he liked the storyline.

We also know that Hideo Kojima is a formidable, yet somewhat
\'limited\' game designer (quality is NOT an issue with this established game designer). That\'s why MGS2\'s gameplay was rather an evolution of MGS1 gameplay than a revolution.
MGS2 still stands as a, though slightly flawed, Masterpiece.
TTS\'s level design still roots in it\'s PSone original and it shows... it hurts it a bit. * edit : Jumpman\'s point about lack of analog control ; yes, a bit of a shame it\'s still either WALK or RUN (no gradual speeding up/down) in TTS. On the other hand ; shooting is never meant to be easy in stealth games. It\'s purely the designers\' incentive for the player to play stealthy without going gunho.

Also, gameplay standards have risen alot since 2001\'s MGS2. Not just by Splinter Cell, but in other genres outside stealth games as well.
Imo, MGS3 will be really decisive for continuation or decline of the Metal Gear franchise. By E3, MGS3 will be so far into development that we will probably be able to tell if Mr. Kojima has been able to truly innovate and keep up with todays standards in gaming,....or
not....
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 09:51:54 AM by Knotter8 »
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Offline Blade
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2004, 06:19:10 AM »
It\'s true. Metal Gear Solid 2 is basically MGS1 with extra play control. Now you can hang off ledges, and see in first-person mode.. wow. Thanks to Splinter Cell, which.. gameplay-wise.. is the next step.. Kojima and crew are going to have to ramp it up in MGS3. I know the forest setting will change things a bit, so it should be okay.
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Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2004, 09:33:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jumpman
Careful Unicorn, all that thinking is starting to hurt your brain.


No that didnt hurt.My post hurts yours though

Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2004, 09:45:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blade
It\'s true. Metal Gear Solid 2 is basically MGS1 with extra play control. Now you can hang off ledges, and see in first-person mode.. wow. Thanks to Splinter Cell, which.. gameplay-wise.. is the next step.. Kojima and crew are going to have to ramp it up in MGS3. I know the forest setting will change things a bit, so it should be okay.


You forget some details that added to the gameplay.
Like the pressure of the trigger.It gives a sense of realism.Thats how a real gun feels and you really must learn to control the trigger.
There are also a few other touches that werent necessqary yet add to the games feel.Like Snake\'s ability to become stronger and hold on ledges longer.Or some things that were unexpected.
Other touches were the AI.Splinter Cell had the usual AI on enemies seen in most games.In MGS2 the artificial intelligence was adding to the gameplay.Like ways of tricking the enemy.
Or scaring the enemy.Or even making fun of them.
MGS\'s gameplay was based a lot on interactivity and the chance to experiment with the guns, enemies AI and backround.And the story and gameplay interact with each other.Splinter Cell based the gameplay on the characters abilities(moves) which werent found in MGS2.
I believe MGS2 was more innovative than Splinter Cell in other aspects.
And lets face it.Splinter Cell\'s gameplay is MGS with more moves and a PC like interface.

So I believe what Hideo Kojima achieved with MGS2 is more special than what was achieved with Splinter Cell since Splinter Cell took the similar approach of innovation found in most efforts.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 09:49:30 AM by Unicron! »

Offline Knotter8
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2004, 10:39:56 AM »
^Uhmm, sorry but i disagree there. MGS2\'s enemy AI works is based on one solid protocol ; squad based tactics with \'traces\' as
their primary search and destroy perimeter.

SC\'s AI is indeed very different, but by no means \'less\'. Lemme try to sum up some key differences ;

* Visual and Audio cue by player actions : MGS2 AI is rather insensitive to that opposed to SC AI\'s noticable reactions to you, the player. MGS2 AI is in this respect only triggered by clearly assigned game SIGNS like \'walking over a metal floor\', the deliberate \'knock on the wall\' or visually speaking, the \'wet footprints\'. SC comes off as more natural here, becuz every action Sam does could trigger suspicion. The whole nature of Splinter Cell IS to sneak up to the guards and take them out. Their AI is perfectly suited in that respect becuz they react pretty unpredictable and with variety. We DO have to note here we\'re talking about the Xbox and PC versions though, becuz the PS2 and NGC SC AI were really dumbed down.

* 3D vs 2D aware AI : Snake\'s moves are actually still rooted on a flat 2D plane. Yes, he is walking in a 3D made world but the AI \'sees\' him as walking on one single floor. Dropping down a ledge let\'s you see the visual representative animation of dropping down in 3D. But to the code, the AI, he just switches floors. In essence, MGS2 is still the classic 2d topdown game ; HENCE all AI, like collision detection and also enemy guard AI is bound to that horizontal 2D plane.
In Splinter Cell I once alerted this Chinese guard but I got away up a ladder before he could actually see me. I thought I was safe, but a few seconds later I noticed being shot at ; he had suspected I went up that ladder and he climbed up too. There\'s the difference ; The whole SC engine has physics and AI suited to 3D movement and thus 3D aware enemy AI. (MGS2 only has a few deliberately placed exceptions like the guard with binoculars looking over connecting bridge E - F, on top of the Heli port. But by default enemy guard AI is bound by a 2D plane)

* Variety of AI ; like I said, MGS2\'s enemy AI is actually one huge single homogenous being. Respawning search and destroy squads who hunt down player tracks (game assigned SIGNS) ; all this based in one single setting ; the Tanker or the Plant.
SC\'s AI is varied by setting and by composition. For example ; the T\'bilisi police guards do not operate the same as the Chinese military. They are also not infinitely respawning. They react as individuals becuz Sam mostly takes them out by approaching each of them one at a time. Snake\'s tranq. M9 distances him from the enemy AI. This way the player can stay outside of the guards\' limited range of sight.
Then there\'s the 2nd level of AI in SC ; the civilians and the maintenance technicians. These npc\'s react differently than the guards and they add variety to the whole expierence. Sometimes they chicken out or they stay static in a state of shock or they go straight for alerting alarm.

So, I\'m not saying that SC AI is perfect or that it never goes \'foggy\' but it\'s not less good than MGS2\'s , just different.
The only \'downside\' SC has is that the more you know the game the less the AI stays lethal. Ubi should have really decreased the numbers of hits Sam can take with increasing difficulty level. Well, occasionally SC AI still surprises me and gets me killed. Especially those guards with full automatic weapons stay very lethal.
Anyway, with SC Pandora Tomorrow Ubi will alter enemy AI
( innocent trainpassengers and Jerusalem civilians will be even more 2nd layer AI) considerably which goes hand in hand with the new and more free level design.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 11:08:30 AM by Knotter8 »
\"Enemy show me what you wanna be, I can handle anything even if I can\'t handle you !\"

Offline Blade
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2004, 11:02:58 AM »
Unicron: I understand your POV and I knew that my post would get some backlash as it does smooth over the details of why Splinter Cell is a full step up from MGS2. Little details like analog trigger button and being able to hang down ledges are just icing on the cake created when Kojima and his talented team released MGS1.

Splinter Cell isn\'t leagues ahead of MGS2 by any means, but it is much more gameplay-oriented.. and like Knotter said, the A.I. is better than MGS2\'s. BTW, who cares about MGS2\'s story? It was convoluted and unrealistic.

Maybe I like SC more because it\'s a more concrete game experience from a gameplay POV.. while the MGS series offers good gameplay with a much more Solid *cough* storyline.. no matter how silly it got in MGS2.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 11:04:07 AM by Blade »
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Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2004, 12:16:46 PM »
Blade:
heh.
I may sound ridiculous but what does POV mean :embarassed:

First of all to avoid misunderstandings: I am not dissing Splinter Cell.
What I am trrying to point out are the things people seem to avoid or underestimate in MGS2.
MGS2 and Splinter Cell\'s aspects are aiming to different dierctions.what happens is that gamers choose one direction and tend to bury the other one.
MGS2 is different than Splinter Cell.Actually comparing the two is like comparing Blade Runner with Star Wars.
Unrealistic the plot it may be in MGS2 but is that the point?NO.
Splinter Cell\'s plot is simple.Thats why it seems Solid.
I ve completed MGS2 five times and at the end "plot holes" have been reduced to none.MGS2 is  trying to make you ponder.Some things arent even directly explained in the game intentionally.

Knotter:
Dont forget that MGS2 was one of the first good attempts on PS2 of complex AI.SC is newer
The first description you made of MGS2 is actually the real thing.
Being for some time in the army here is how things work usually in Army Camps.
There are the outposts and the patrols.Outposts suspect something make sure of what that is and if it is important call superiors (usually an officer in service in camps).Patrols would search that area and replace the outpost if something is wrong.
Actually I was very surprised how this was presented.
I agree it was kind of mechanically presented though.Very predictable.
But as I said what makes MGS2\'s different is the chance to experiment with the AI.Enemies even show emotions.It has a more interactive feel than SC.In SC the AI serves only what is needed for the game.MGS goes beyond the necessary.I am not judging wihich AI is better for the game\'s mechanics.

Actually we agree in some extend:So, I\'m not saying that SC AI is perfect or that it never goes \'foggy\' but it\'s not less good than MGS2\'s , just different.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 12:27:07 PM by Unicron! »

Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2004, 12:24:05 PM »
accidentally quoited myself

Offline Knotter8
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2004, 12:45:27 PM »
^ Yes, the \'truth\' is like in most cases, somewhere in the middle ; and that applies to both games.

MGS2\'s moral/society message about censore of information and passing on of culture are brilliant stuff by Mr. Kojima. Some twists in the actual MGS2 plot ( to all ppl ; plot is something different than a story\'s message, mind you ;)  ) are a bit over the edge imo ; Fortune\'s worse than soap-opera drama over Vamp and Otacon\'s doing his stepmom thing for example. But from the point where Solidus confronts Raiden on Federall Hall and the convo with the AI are just pure genius :thepimp:

Splinter Cell\'s story is better than SC haters make out to be, really. There are alot of subtle and \'read-it-between-the lines\' in the story which make it VERY good. You just gotta make sure you read ALL OPSAT files as well. Remember ; we have to look upon this story in it\'s own context. Fisher works for the USA cause, the NSA. Very patriotic stuff. Becuz of that the story may SEEM at first to be standard stuff. But try to listen to how Fisher comments and questions stuff in the game. They may be small comments or questions, but they truly make for a very good story. Almost on par with MGS1. Some nice examples ;
* Dying scene of Jr. Wilkes ; Fisher doesn\'t say Wilkes\'ll be ok, or some heroic crap that he\'ll avenge Wilkes\' death.... NO, he just honestly says to Wilkes he\'s dying. Very realistic imo for a character like Fisher.
* Beginning of Abbatoir level. Fisher ; "Are we worrying about the broadcast or the execution ?" Seems harsh, but i think this is again very realistic when he\'s out there in the \'field\'.
* Several cases in which Fisher questions stuff, however he\'s kept
\'short and on a leash\' by Lambert. Ironside truly makes this human aspect of Fisher come through. But of course, the professional he is, Fisher achieves the mission goals.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 12:50:23 PM by Knotter8 »
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Offline Unicron!
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2004, 01:26:04 PM »
Quote
^ Yes, the \'truth\' is like in most cases, somewhere in the middle ; and that applies to both games.

MGS2\'s moral/society message about censore of information and passing on of culture are brilliant stuff by Mr. Kojima. Some twists in the actual MGS2 plot ( to all ppl ; plot is something different than a story\'s message, mind you ;)  ) are a bit over the edge imo ; Fortune\'s worse than soap-opera drama over Vamp and Otacon\'s doing his stepmom thing for example. But from the point where Solidus confronts Raiden on Federall Hall and the convo with the AI are just pure genius :thepimp:


Heh.Well Hideo Kojima took a very philosophical and psychology pondering approach in the story.How much do we know ourselves.Things like Fortune\'s tragic character had to do a lot with psychology.It showed a weakness we humans tend to express.She couldnt die.So she seeked death(she knew she couldnt die anyways).Convinced herself that she wanted death but it was the convenience that nobody could kill her that made her use that as a camouflage to cover her weakness of self-pittying.It was like "I am a tragic character.I am so desperate and lost into sadness...see me".But that was a context she created by herself with the help of the patriots.The patriots gave her everything.Even the chance to exploit her weakness.
Otacon\'s doing his stepmom also had a part in the game.Showed yet anothe weakness of human.Immoral behaviour doesnt seem as much of a problem.If nobody knows its almost as if it didnt happen.Right.Till something happens that makes you feel guilt and want to run away from the past.
Kojima showed tragic chacracters, weaknesses and a past that hasnt been done before.He made his characters look realistic.Every human has made things or hides things.Imperfection in everyone.It seemed stupid to people but its like the characters you find in books.(not that games can reach the splendor of books)

Quote

Splinter Cell\'s story is better than SC haters make out to be, really. There are alot of subtle and \'read-it-between-the lines\' in the story which make it VERY good. You just gotta make sure you read ALL OPSAT files as well. Remember ; we have to look upon this story in it\'s own context. Fisher works for the USA cause, the NSA. Very patriotic stuff. Becuz of that the story may SEEM at first to be standard stuff. But try to listen to how Fisher comments and questions stuff in the game. They may be small comments or questions, but they truly make for a very good story. Almost on par with MGS1. Some nice examples ;
* Dying scene of Jr. Wilkes ; Fisher doesn\'t say Wilkes\'ll be ok, or some heroic crap that he\'ll avenge Wilkes\' death.... NO, he just honestly says to Wilkes he\'s dying. Very realistic imo for a character like Fisher.
* Beginning of Abbatoir level. Fisher ; "Are we worrying about the broadcast or the execution ?" Seems harsh, but i think this is again very realistic when he\'s out there in the \'field\'.
* Several cases in which Fisher questions stuff, however he\'s kept
\'short and on a leash\' by Lambert. Ironside truly makes this human aspect of Fisher come through. But of course, the professional he is, Fisher achieves the mission goals. [/B]


heh.Well......I am against patriotism.I dont think I would like the story.Ofcourse not becuase it might be bad.Its probably perfect for the ears of someone that loves fighting for his country.As MGS2 wasnt liked by a few people since it nulled believes like patriotism(not to mention humans generally :D).(I get the impression that some Americans though misunderstood its universal message and thought it had an anti-american feel to it)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 01:34:09 PM by Unicron! »

Offline Capcom
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2004, 05:50:56 PM »
I am a mgs whore. My only problem with splinter cell is that if you kill someone then the mission is over. It makes it artificially hard.  At the very least he should have a tranq gun.  The missions I could kill were true bliss. Heck I love sneaking up on someone just to kill them anyways. :)

Offline Living-In-Clip

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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2004, 06:24:01 PM »
I am not a sneaking type person. I don\'t get pleasure out of it, to be honest. I like to run on walls, slash people down and what not. With that said, I also have a huge problem with the amount of talking  via cinema\'s or codec\'s in the MGS series. Kojimia always wanted to be a movie director and it shows when he does his videogames. As much as I loved ZoE2 - I still think it had to many cinema\'s.  Snatcher? A cinematic masterpiece, but I don\'t care to see games go the way of cinema\'s. Infact, the least amount of story possible, is my style. Does that mean MGS is crap or people who like it have bad taste? No. It means the game is not my style, just as I\'m sure SkyGunner / Mark of Kri / Pikimin / Maximo is not everyone\'s style of game,but four games that I adore.

Offline Ryu
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2004, 07:24:51 PM »
I actually finished Twin Snakes in one sitting this afternoon after spending about an hour or two coming to grips with the controls in the opening two scenes of the game namely the dock and the heliport just killing guards, practicing the analog controls with FP aiming, testing the guards vision, etc, and the game is much easier then the original game.  I\'ll have to talk more about what makes it good and bad in my review.  I\'ll post that link later on when it\'s up on the website.  

I\'ll answer any questions about the game that anyone has before then.
Don\'t you ever touch my cape.
-Ryu

Offline Halberto
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2004, 11:15:36 PM »
I got it tonight. I think the graphics are better than MGS2, better texturing, cleaner, and more detail than MGS2. The only thing I gotta say is the Gamecube controller sucks ass for this game.

 

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