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Author Topic: Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election  (Read 1469 times)

Offline videoholic

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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2004, 03:22:59 PM »
I think what is sad is that everyone just assumes this is true and is running with it.  Kerry is jumping all over it, but it seems so freaking irrational that it could possibly happen as easily as being presented.  

THere are a ton of accounts now coming out that when we arrived in Baghdad there were none of these weapons.  

I mean to instantly blame Bush for everything is just getting old.
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Offline Bozco
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2004, 06:03:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by The Hurricane
Frankly, at this point, it doesn\'t matter who Bush is running against.  I\'m not a Kerry supporter, but I sure as hell aint voting Bush.


Wow.....really..........exciting

Offline GigaShadow
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2004, 04:21:17 AM »
Kerry made a um... mistake.  Talk about a rush to judgement without knowing the facts?  I also wonder if Saddam\'s WMD\'s went to Syria as well??    

Russia tied to Iraq\'s missing arms


By Bill Gertz

THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein\'s weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.

    John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.
 
"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."

Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
   
Most of Saddam\'s most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.

The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam\'s weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
 
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
 
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
 
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
 
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.

 Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."

The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.

A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army\'s  5th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.

The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.

"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division\'s arrival at the facility," the statement said.

The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam\'s regime.

According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.

It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.

 A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam\'s government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq\'s Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.

The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.

A small portion of Iraq\'s 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq\'s largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.

However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.

The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.

Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam\'s Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.

The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.

Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.

The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.

Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.

"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.

Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.

The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.

Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam\'s minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.

The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.

Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.

The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.

Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq\'s weapons of mass destruction programs.
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Offline Ace
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 05:59:22 AM »
This is so Kerry. I can\'t believe this guy has a shot.
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Offline Bozco
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2004, 09:16:43 AM »
But Bush is the terrible liar.

Offline videoholic

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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2004, 09:41:07 AM »
Again, how is Bush a liar?  You have to prove that he knew something and intentionally said otherwise.  Not his administration, but he himself.
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Offline Black Samurai
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2004, 12:19:28 PM »
My main problem is the administration saying that they knew about the weapons but have no idea where they went. A cache of 380 tons of explosives is not exactly a couple peashooters under a mattress. If you are planning an invasion you should be able to notice any large scale movements out of the country.

I just don\'t understand how people accept an answer like "We don\'t know where they are" when it has been stated that the explosives were known to still be in the bunkers just before the US led invasion. That, to me, is unacceptable.
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Offline GigaShadow
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2004, 12:51:15 PM »
Now the Iraqi\'s think there might have been only 3 tons there... this story is such bull$hit.  Kerry is desperate to launch an assault based on a NY Times story which has no credible facts.  And to think some of you want this guy over Bush.  Amazing.  In the end whose fault is this if they did exist?  The IAEA\'s of course.  Why the hell didn\'t they destroy these things when they had the chance?  Like their "seal" holds some magical power. :rolleyes:

Discrepancy Found in Explosives Amounts

Documents Show Iraqis May Be Overstating Amount of Missing Material

Oct. 27, 2004 — Iraqi officials may be overstating the amount of explosives reported to have disappeared from a weapons depot, documents obtained by ABC News show.

The Iraqi interim government has told the United States and international weapons inspectors that 377 tons of conventional explosives are missing from the Al-Qaqaa installation, which was supposed to be under U.S. military control.

But International Atomic Energy Agency documents obtained by ABC News and first reported on "World News Tonight with Peter Jennings" indicate the amount of missing explosives may be substantially less than the Iraqis reported.

The information on which the Iraqi Science Ministry based an Oct. 10 memo in which it reported that 377 tons of RDX explosives were missing — presumably stolen due to a lack of security — was based on "declaration" from July 15, 2002. At that time, the Iraqis said there were 141 tons of RDX explosives at the facility.

But the confidential IAEA documents obtained by ABC News show that on Jan. 14, 2003, the agency\'s inspectors recorded that just over three tons of RDX were stored at the facility — a considerable discrepancy from what the Iraqis reported.

The IAEA documents could mean that 138 tons of explosives were removed from the facility long before the United States launched "Operation Iraqi Freedom" in March 2003.

The missing explosives have become an issue in the presidential campaign. Sen. John Kerry has pointed to the disappearance as evidence of the Bush administration\'s poor handling of the war. The Bush camp has responded that more than a thousand times that amount of explosives or munitions have been recovered or destroyed in Iraq.

Another Concern

The IAEA documents from January 2003 found no discrepancy in the amount of the more dangerous HMX explosives thought to be stored at Al-Qaqaa, but they do raise another disturbing possibility.

The documents show IAEA inspectors looked at nine bunkers containing more than 194 tons of HMX at the facility. Although these bunkers were still under IAEA seal, the inspectors said the seals may be potentially ineffective because they had ventilation slats on the sides. These slats could be easily removed to remove the materials inside the bunkers without breaking the seals, the inspectors noted.

ABC News\' Martha Raddatz filed this report for "World News Tonight." Luis Martinez contributed to this report.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=204304&page=1
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 12:53:54 PM by GigaShadow »
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Offline Bozco
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2004, 01:07:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by videoholic
Again, how is Bush a liar?  You have to prove that he knew something and intentionally said otherwise.  Not his administration, but he himself.


I was just mocking people.

Offline videoholic

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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2004, 02:03:03 PM »
It truely is sad just how much this story has swelled.  The democrats are running with it and there is absolutely nothing to substantiate anything being caused by Bush or even the US.

Problem is that the trailer trash of the world is so uninformed that there is no telling how they are going to vote.


Would it be so wrong to not make you have a high school education to vote?  Nevermind.  That\'s off topic.
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Offline GigaShadow
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2004, 04:58:42 AM »
Now a TV station in Minnesota is claiming they have seen the high explosives... but they can\'t be certain.  :rolleyes:

TV Video May Show Explosives at Al-Qaqaa


WASHINGTON - Videotape shot by a Minnesota television crew traveling with U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) when they first opened the bunkers at the Al-Qaqaa munitions base nine days after the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) shows what appeared to be high explosives still in barrels and bearing the markings of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

The video taken by KSTP of St. Paul on April 18, 2003, could reinforce suggestions that tons of explosives missing from a munitions installation in Iraq were looted after the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq. The video was broadcast nationally Thursday on ABC.

"The photographs are consistent with what I know of Al-Qaqaa," David A. Kay, a former American official who directed the hunt in Iraq for unconventional weapons and visited the site, told The New York Times. "The damning thing is the seals. The Iraqis didn\'t use seals on anything. So I\'m absolutely sure that\'s an IAEA seal."

The question of what happened to the tons of explosives has become a major issue in the closing days of the presidential campaign.

Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) says the missing explosives — powerful enough to demolish a building, bring down a jetliner or set off a nuclear weapon — are another example of the Bush administration\'s poor planning and incompetence in handling the war in Iraq. President Bush (news - web sites) says the explosives were possibly removed by Saddam\'s forces before the invasion.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld entered the debate Thursday, suggesting the 377 tons of explosives were taken away before U.S. forces arrived, saying any large effort to loot the material afterward would have been detected.

"We would have seen anything like that," he said in one of two radio interviews he gave at the Pentagon (news - web sites). "The idea it was suddenly looted and moved out, all of these tons of equipment, I think is at least debatable."

The Pentagon also declassified and released a single image, taken by reconnaissance aircraft or satellite just days before the war, showing two trucks outside one of the dozens of storage bunkers at the Al-Qaqaa munitions base.

The particular bunker is not one known to have contained any of the missing explosives, and Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita said the image only shows that there was some Iraqi activity at the base when it was taken, on March 17. Di Rita said the image says nothing about what happened to the explosives.

Rumsfeld, in one radio interview, also cast doubt on the suggestion of one of his subordinates that Russian forces assisted the Iraqis in removing them.

John Shaw, the deputy U.S. undersecretary of defense for international technology security, suggested to The Washington Times in an interview that the Russians may have been involved, prompting an angry denial from Moscow.

Rumsfeld said, "I have no information on that at all, and cannot validate that even slightly."

But at issue is whether the weapons were moved before or after U.S. forces occupied that region of the country in early April. No one has been able to provide conclusive evidence either way, although Iraqi officials blamed it on poor U.S. security after Baghdad fell.

The Pentagon has said it\'s looking into the matter, and officials note that 400,000 tons of recovered Iraqi munitions have either been destroyed or are slated to be destroyed.
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Offline Black Samurai
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Offline GigaShadow
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2004, 11:33:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Black Samurai
Why does the news hate America?

ABCNews wants the terrorists to win.


Didn\'t I post that story earlier today?

Why yes I did!

Kerry Doesn\'t Have The Facts
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Offline Black Samurai
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Missing Weapons - The UN\'s attempt to influence US election
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2004, 11:42:47 AM »
If the pentagon is saying they destroyed a sizeable portion of the explosives then why is the administration saying that they don\'t know what happened?

BTW, Why are you blaming the timing of this news on liberals and the media when the Iraqi interim government came forward with the info?
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Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2004, 11:51:01 AM »
Its a non story... yet our MSM is making it into a story.  Also the IAEA were the proponents in this story.  We knew about it a year ago - why all of a sudden was it going to be on 60 Minutes on Sunday?  Why make it an issue now?  Please... I know you aren\'t that naive.  I mean they and John Kerry are acting like terrorists might have gotten a hold of Sarin or worse.  Yeah it can blow up a plane, but so can a hand grenade.  

Yes, unaccounted for weapons are bad, but geez Iraq was one big arms stockpile.  Of course every last piece of explosives is not going to accounted for and to accuse the President of incompetence for some missing explosives which are equal to less than 1 percent of what we have already secured or destroyed is absurd.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2004, 11:52:09 AM by GigaShadow »
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