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Author Topic: Leeching off the system?  (Read 731 times)

Offline SirMystiq

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Leeching off the system?
« on: April 05, 2005, 07:55:33 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?pagewanted=1

STOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security\'s long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation\'s public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

He belongs to a big club. As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year\'s surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration\'s projections.

Illegal immigration, Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University, noted sardonically, could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID\'s to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security\'s finances, it was a great piece of legislation.

Starting in the late 1980\'s, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990\'s, two and a half times the amount of the 1980\'s.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2\'s with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages.

Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant.

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security\'s chief actuary, using the agency\'s term for illegal immigration.

Other researchers say illegal immigrants are the main contributors to the suspense file. "Illegal immigrants account for the vast majority of the suspense file," said Nick Theodore, the director of the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Especially its growth over the 1990\'s, as more and more undocumented immigrants entered the work force."

Using data from the Census Bureau\'s current population survey, Steven Camarota, director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies, an advocacy group in Washington that favors more limits on immigration, estimated that 3.8 million households headed by illegal immigrants generated $6.4 billion in Social Security taxes in 2002.

A comparative handful of former illegal immigrant workers who have obtained legal residence have been able to accredit their previous earnings to their new legal Social Security numbers. Mr. Camarota is among those opposed to granting a broad amnesty to illegal immigrants, arguing that, among other things, they might claim Social Security benefits and put further financial stress on the system.

The mismatched W-2\'s fit like a glove on illegal immigrants\' known geographic distribution and the patchwork of jobs they typically hold. An audit found that more than half of the 100 employers filing the most earnings reports with false Social Security numbers from 1997 through 2001 came from just three states: California, Texas and Illinois. According to an analysis by the Government Accountability Office, about 17 percent of the businesses with inaccurate W-2\'s were restaurants, 10 percent were construction companies and 7 percent were farm operations.

Most immigration helps Social Security\'s finances, because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security\'s actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system\'s 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent - savings that come out to half a trillion dollars, valued in today\'s money.

Illegal immigrants help even more because they will never collect benefits. According to Mr. Goss, without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system\'s long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.

Yet to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico\'s Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven\'t asked," Mr. Tapia said.

For illegal immigrants, Social Security numbers are simply a tool needed to work on this side of the border. Retirement does not enter the picture.

"There will be a moment when I won\'t be able to continue working," Mr. Martínez acknowledges. "But that\'s many years off."

Mario Avalos, a naturalized Nicaraguan immigrant who prepares income tax returns for many workers in the area, including immigrants without legal papers, observes that many older workers return home to Mexico. "Among my clients," he said, "I can\'t recall anybody over 60 without papers."

No doubt most illegal immigrants would prefer to avoid Social Security altogether. As part of its efforts to properly assign the growing pile of unassigned wages, Social Security sends about 130,000 letters a year to employers with large numbers of mismatched pay statements.

Though not an intended consequence of these so-called no-match letters, in many cases employers who get them dismiss the workers affected. Or the workers - fearing that immigration authorities might be on their trail - just leave.

Last February, for instance, discrepancies in Social Security numbers put an end to the job of Minerva Ortega, 25, from Zacatecas, in northern Mexico, who worked in the cheese department at a warehouse for Mike Campbell & Associates, a distributor for Trader Joe\'s, a popular discount food retailer with a large operation in California.

The company asked dozens of workers to prove that they had cleared up or were in the process of clearing up the "discrepancy between the information on our payroll related to your employment and the S.S.A.\'s records." Most could not.

Ms. Ortega said about 150 workers lost their jobs. In a statement, Mike Campbell said that it did not fire any of the workers, but Robert Camarena, a company official, acknowledged that many left.

Ms. Ortega is now looking for work again. She does not want to go back to the fields, so she is holding out for a better-paid factory job. Whatever work she finds, though, she intends to go on the payroll with the same Social Security number she has now, a number that will not jibe with federal records.

With this number, she will continue paying taxes. Last year she paid about $1,200 in Social Security taxes, matched by her employer, on an income of $19,000.

She will never see the money again, she realizes, but at least she will have a job in the United States.

"I don\'t pay much attention," Ms. Ortega said. "I know I don\'t get any benefit."





My girlfriends grandfather, who is 75, is still working in landscaping. Doing the same back breaking job, but with a different name. Retirement-what is that?
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline Viper_Fujax

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2005, 08:50:16 PM »
i didnt really feel like reading the whole thing. Im assuming its the tired debate about illegals paying taxes and not getting the benefits yadda yadda.

But i dont get if theyre illegal, why should we worry about their social security? sure it sucks the world isnt a utopia and everyone is happy, but the side affect of coming here illegally is that you dont get social security. I really dont get the debate in if ILLEGAL immigrants should get benefits of our system. They made the choice to come over here, now live with it. Im not against having people making lives for themselves, but dont come over illegally then complain about our system. Get legalized, go home, or live with it.
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Offline SirMystiq

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2005, 08:53:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viper_Fujax
i didnt really feel like reading the whole thing. Im assuming its the tired debate about illegals paying taxes and not getting the benefits yadda yadda.

But i dont get if theyre illegal, why should we worry about their social security? sure it sucks the world isnt a utopia and everyone is happy, but the side affect of coming here illegally is that you dont get social security. I really dont get the debate in if ILLEGAL immigrants should get benefits of our system. They made the choice to come over here, now live with it. Im not against having people making lives for themselves, but dont come over illegally then complain about our system. Get legalized, go home, or live with it.



You missed the point. The whole idea was that they DON\'T whine.

et to immigrants, the lack of retirement benefits is just part of the package of hardship they took on when they decided to make the trek north. Tying vines in a vineyard some 30 miles north of Stockton, Florencio Tapia, 20, from Guerrero, along Mexico\'s Pacific coast, has no idea what the money being withheld from his paycheck is for. "I haven\'t asked," Mr. Tapia said.


They come here and make a huge sacrifice. But, that isn\'t enough for people here. That is the point. For all of the ridiculing about their illegal status, they don\'t whine about such things. They know their illegal and therefore will never get benefits like those.
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline Viper_Fujax

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2005, 08:55:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq


They come here and make a huge sacrifice. But, that isn\'t enough for people here. That is the point. For all of the ridiculing about their illegal status, they don\'t whine about such things. They know their illegal and therefore will never get benefits like those.


alrighty then
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Offline THX
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Offline SirMystiq

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Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline THX
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2005, 08:58:25 PM »
better safe then sorry.  no illegals allowed, criminal or not.

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Offline SirMystiq

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2005, 08:59:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by THX
better safe then sorry.  no illegals allowed, criminal or not.


You\'re right. If illegals were all deported. Crime would be over with?

That is a very sorry excuse.
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline GmanJoe

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2005, 04:05:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
You\'re right. If illegals were all deported. Crime would be over with?

That is a very sorry excuse.


You missed the point. He didn\'t say there would be none. There\'d be NO crime committed by illegals if there weren\'t ANY here. And besides...the illegals who aren\'t gonna benefit from SS better take the dinero and hike back to Mexico where the dollars will last them a lot longer than here.
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Offline THX
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 05:18:32 AM »
I have to admit Mystiq we like to stir the pot with you, and I know there are tons of Spanish people that do back-breaking work, but they have to enter this country legally just like every other immigrant.  If it was up to you would you really just end all border patrol laws?

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Offline SirMystiq

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2005, 09:26:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by THX
I have to admit Mystiq we like to stir the pot with you, and I know there are tons of Spanish people that do back-breaking work, but they have to enter this country legally just like every other immigrant.  If it was up to you would you really just end all border patrol laws?


My problem is not the laws. The laws are there for our protection. To ensure that everybody is safe within this country. I understand. I don\'t think the laws should be abolished or that people should come here illegally. But the situation in Mexico, for example, is horrible. The minimum wage is laughable and families live like animals in most of the country. I understand that some of you don\'t care, but I also know that alot of Americans do understand. The process to come in this country legally is long and complicated for most people who don\'t understand the system. It takes a long time, and sometimes time is a luxury to most of the people there.

And when it comes to feeding your family and being a good father/mother or whatever, breaking the law is always an option. It isn\'t right, I know, but it is necessary for most. If legalization was given in basis of merit and given to those illegal immigrants who have worked in this country and been good law abiding citizens for the most part, then we probably wouldn\'t have such a problem. I could care less for the illegal people that come here and become criminals. Send them back to Mexico or put them in a jail, those people truly don\'t deserve the opportunities that this country offers. Most illegal immigrants realize that this country is truly the land of opportunities, then they appreciate it more.


Alot of immigrants who get visas can only stay here for a short period of time. Then what? Wouldn\'t it be safer for us if we knew about all of the illegal immigrants? Wouldn\'t crime be reduced if people were not afraid of calling the cops because they might deport them? Wouldn\'t it be more beneficial to have all of those people put their money in the bank legally or be able to start a business or build a credit history?
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline GigaShadow
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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2005, 10:28:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
But the situation in Mexico, for example, is horrible. The minimum wage is laughable and families live like animals in most of the country. I understand that some of you don\'t care, but I also know that alot of Americans do understand. The process to come in this country legally is long and complicated for most people who don\'t understand the system. It takes a long time, and sometimes time is a luxury to most of the people there.


Not our problem.  Sorry, just because my neighbor doesn\'t have anything to eat tonight doesn\'t mean he can break into my house to eat the left overs.


Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
And when it comes to feeding your family and being a good father/mother or whatever, breaking the law is always an option. It isn\'t right, I know, but it is necessary for most. If legalization was given in basis of merit and given to those illegal immigrants who have worked in this country and been good law abiding citizens for the most part, then we probably wouldn\'t have such a problem. I could care less for the illegal people that come here and become criminals. Send them back to Mexico or put them in a jail, those people truly don\'t deserve the opportunities that this country offers. Most illegal immigrants realize that this country is truly the land of opportunities, then they appreciate it more.


Oh please - there is no famine in Mexico.  What those people want is MTV, bling and central air conditioning.  

By saying send the criminals back to Mexico, you imply let them first come here illegally and undocumented and commit a crime against a US citizen and then send them back... absurd.

If most of the illegals truly appreciate this country then why don\'t they learn English?  Why don\'t they abide by the law and apply legally for citizenship?  Yeah they appreciate it. :rolleyes:


Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Alot of immigrants who get visas can only stay here for a short period of time. Then what? Wouldn\'t it be safer for us if we knew about all of the illegal immigrants?


So open the borders and let them all come and go as they please earning money here and taking it back to Mexico, further weaking our economy and strenghtening Mexico\'s?  

Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Wouldn\'t crime be reduced if people were not afraid of calling the cops because they might deport them? Wouldn\'t it be more beneficial to have all of those people put their money in the bank legally or be able to start a business or build a credit history?


Both "illegals" shouldn\'t be here in the first place and second when they have money it all goes back to Mexico.
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Offline clips

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Leeching off the system?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2005, 05:33:33 PM »
lol at giga they want A.C. and bling? :laughing: i understand both arguments, but ultimately they gotta come here legally..period...if you were living in another country..think about it..you have to go by their rules and alot of those countries aren\'t as leanient (spel) as the u.s. they are a lot more strict....


oh and thx on that list you posted i only seen like 3 black people on that list  :thumb:  yay!...
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 05:34:59 PM by clips »
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Offline SirMystiq

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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 07:05:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Not our problem.  Sorry, just because my neighbor doesn\'t have anything to eat tonight doesn\'t mean he can break into my house to eat the left overs.




Like I said...Some of you don\'t care. And your comparison is pretty weak, what are the "left overs" that illegal immigrants eat? The jobs that so many Americans are unwilling to do? Who would do them if it was not for them?


Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Oh please - there is no famine in Mexico.  What those people want is MTV, bling and central air conditioning.  

By saying send the criminals back to Mexico, you imply let them first come here illegally and undocumented and commit a crime against a US citizen and then send them back... absurd.

[/B]


You would know that there is no famine in Mexico...why? Have you ever been there except for the hot spots that Americans like to visit? And it is not a faminine in Mexico, it\'s not extreme, but it is not far from it. And that is thanks to the continous corruption of the government there.


I didn\'t imply anything. The fact is that they are ALREADY here so therefore the only thing you can do is send them back to Mexico or I don\'t care what you do with them. Anybody can come to this country and be a criminal and still be legal. 9/11 hijackers?




Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
If most of the illegals truly appreciate this country then why don\'t they learn English?  Why don\'t they abide by the law and apply legally for citizenship?  Yeah they appreciate it. :rolleyes:

[/B]


Like I said. It takes time and its a very difficult road. And like I also said, time is a luxury for most there. From all of the illegal immigrants I know, most of them don\'t need to learn English. They have bosses that are willing to learn Spanish because they know it benefits them, everything is bilingual now and it\'s almost unnecessary to learn English. Why should they learn English? They can\'t get a good job legally anyways and most of the jobs they take are low paying jobs that don\'t require alot of skill and mostly physical labor.

To apply once for citizenship once you are in this country, they require to go back to Mexico and wait TEN years. Yes, that is very encouraging...Alot just wait for their kids to turn 21 and have their kids ask legalization for them and it is alot quicker.

Quote
Originally posted by GigaShadow
So open the borders and let them all come and go as they please earning money here and taking it back to Mexico, further weaking our economy and strenghtening Mexico\'s?  



Both "illegals" shouldn\'t be here in the first place and second when they have money it all goes back to Mexico. [/B]


Well, the article did say that they give up billions of dollars to be used toward legal Americans in order to work here. That would probably equal out.

Judging from the many illegal immigrants I know, they bring their entire families up here. And from time to time they do send 500 or maybe a 1000 dollars to Mexico once a year. But once their immediate family has joined them, the need to send to Mexico is gone. Most illegal immigrants are married and only send back to Mexico to provide for their families. If they plan on staying in this country, they pay to bring their families to this country. If they don\'t plan on staying they go back. Then again we have the sad fucks that decide to leave their family behind and get a new wife and kids here.
Don\'t try to confuse me with what you call  facts, my mind is already made up.

Offline GigaShadow
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2005, 04:18:31 AM »
What do you not understand Mystiq - our economy can not support an influx of poverty stricken people with no desirable skills - let alone their family as well which will be supported by taxpayers by allowing the non English speaking kids to go to public school and if one of them gets hurt they are rushed to the emergency room where they can\'t be denied service regardless of whether they have insurance or not.

They are invaders - plain and simple.  Instead of whining about the corrupt government in Mexico, the people there should do something about it.  Last time I checked, Mexico was not a dictatorship and has elections just like we do here.

Your entire argument is weak and you can not say anything that would have us believe that illegal immigration is "ok" and that allowing any Mexican who wants to enter this country to do so legally just because this country is wealthier than their native one.

Mexico\'s problems are not America\'s problems.  If you are so concerned about the quality of life there and the "plight" of the people then move the hell back and work to make it better.  Please... I will buy you a ticket.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 06:00:16 AM by GigaShadow »
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