Silly Korea

[GmanJoe]

Kim Jong Il is a despot and could give a fuck about his starving people. He may not be "medically" crazy but he\'s still fucked in the head. He should end this stupid war, open up his country to the world and shoot himself.

And the man KIDNAPS people from Japan for sexual relationships! Now if that ain\'t crazy, you need to...wait...you don\'t like Japan, do you?

I was room mates with a Korean back in 1985-86 in highschool (boarding school) and he said all Koreans hate the Japapese. Funny thing was, he lived in Japan before heading off to boarding school. Lee Joo-Suk was his name.

Originally posted by hyper
Again, this is typical of one who refuses to research the facts.

North Korea has legitimate security concerns. Why?

1) The Korean War ended in an armistice. A written non-aggression pact was never signed. This means that the US and North Korea are technically still at war.

No, SK and NK are still technically at war.  Who has refused to sign a peace treaty with SK?  Yes I think you know.

Originally posted by hyper
2) North Korea faces a significant conventional and nuclear threat from the United States. There are 37,000 US troops stationed in South Korea and an equal number in Japan. The US also maintains hundreds of Lance-tipped nuclear missiles in South Korea.

[/b]

Those 37,000 US troops would be but a speed bump if NK invaded SK.  NK also has thousands of artillery pieces right on the other side of DMZ that can hit the capital of SK with impunity.  I think you are mistaken about who threatens who more...  You know I would be in favor of the US leaving SK all together and letting the NK invade.  In a recent poll most young SK would be in favor of this - lets see how much they like starving, no freedoms and no protection.  

Originally posted by hyper
3) North Korea is constantly exposed to hawkish rhetoric from top US circles. Bush has identifed North Korea as a part of the "Axis of Evil." The majority of US officials state that "regime change" is the top policy goal regarding North Korea.

I guess refusing to sign a peace treaty with SK, developing nukes, and firing test missles over Japan doesn\'t warrant them as being labeled as a threat in your eyes.

Originally posted by hyper
5) The North has lost the support of Russia and China, its two main patrons. Both Russia and China normalized ties with South Korea more than a decade ago. Thus, the DPRK has no allies to turn to in the advent of war.

Last time I looked NK and China were pretty close diplomatically.

Originally posted by hyper
6) The Asian region as a whole has one over-arching goal when it comes to North Korea - regime change.

If that is the case Kim Jong Il should take a hint.

Originally posted by hyper
I am not defending the North. All South Koreans want reunification, and I am no exception. Labelling the North as crazy and refusing to accept the fact it has legitimate security concerns, however, leads to dangerous policy making by unnecessarily provoking the North. Instead of regime change, the US should soften its stance and pursue engagement, both economically and politically, to bring the DPRK to a soft landing.

Have fun.  Let us bring the troops back home and let you South Koreans deal with Kim Jong Il since you think the US is a greater threat to SK than he is.  There is nothing in SK the US has an interest in anyway since the Cold War ended.  It would be another Vietnam circa 1975 with NK immediately invading and overrunning SK.  You really think Kim Jong Il would want to reunify without him being in complete control?  That is naive.  

The only provokations are coming from North Korea - resuming uranium enrichment, massive military build up, trying to use nuclear power to blackmail the west, etc.

We have a country just to the south of Florida that has a dictator we don\'t like either, yet for the past 35 years or so we have made no physical attempt to remove him from power and with the exception of the Bay of Pigs (which was more Cuban ex patriots than US forces) we have not attempted to invade Cuba.  Compared to NK that would be walk in the park.

Lil Kim is a film fanatic. He and mm could be twins! If that\'s not crazy I dunno what is. :eek:

[Paul2]

as weird as this may sound, but that baby pic of Kim Jong II does resembles William Hung...

Let us end the discussion on the North Korean military threat with an excerpt from a book by David Kang:

Thus the most common measure of power in international relations - economic size and defense spending - show quite clearly that North Korea was never larger than South Korea, has been smaller on an absolute and per-capital basis than the South for at least 30 years, and continues to fall farther behind. Those who see North Korea as threatening need to explain why North Korea - having waited 50 years - would finally attack now that it is one twentieth the size of the South.

...

But for the past 30 years, North Korea\'s training, equipment, and overall military quality has steadily deteriorated relative to the South.

The South Korean military is better-equipped, better-trained, and more versatile with better logistics and support than the North Korean military. Although the military has continued to hold pride of place in the North Korean economy, there have been increasing reports of reduced training due to the economic problems. One of South Korea\'s major daily newspapers quoted that NK\'s air force had made 100 training sorties per day in 1996, down from 300 to 400 before the end of 1995, and that the training maneuvers of ground troops had also been reduced to a "minimum level." American military offficials have noted that individual NK pilots take one training flight per month, compared with the 10 flights per month that US pilots take. This drastically degrates combat readiness.

The bulk of North Korea\'s main battle tanks are of 1950s vintage, and most of its combat aircraft were introduced before 1956. Evaluations after the Gulf War concluded that Western weaponry is at least twice, or even four-times, better than older Soviet-vintage systems. By the 1990s North Korea\'s military was large in absolute numbers but the quality of their forces was severely degraded relative to South Korea\'s and the US military. Michael O\'Hanlon notes that: "Given the obsolescence of most North Korean equipment, however, actual capabilities of most forces would be notably less than raw numbers suggest. About half of North Korea\'s major weapons are of roughly 1960s design; the other half are even older."

To view the North as superior in military terms is a mistake. But even more surprising about many of these accounts is that they measure the strength of the North Korean military only against that of the ROK, without including the US forces, either present in Korea or those potential reinforcements. North Korea knows that it would fight the United States as well as the South, and it is wishful thinking to hope that the North Korean military planners are so naive as to ignore the US military presence in South Korea, expecting the US to pack up and go home if the North invaded. Comparisons between the South and the North that ignore the role of the United States are seriously misleading as to the real balance of power on the peninsula.

In the event of a full-scale conflict, the United States could reinforce the peninsular with overwhelming power. Currently 36,000 US troops are stationed in Korea, including the US Second Infantry division and 90 combat aircraft including 72 F-16s. In addition, 36,000 troops are stationed in Japan, including the headquarters of the Seventh fleet at Yokosuka naval base, 14,000 Marines, and 90 combat aircraft. This is only the beginning, as more would soon arrive from within the United States.

This economic and military comparisons of North and South Korea shows that North Korea never had a lead over the South, and after the 1960s quickly began falling behind. The end of the cold war marked the beginning of a major change in North Korea\'s fortunes, as North Korea continued to have economic difficulties, while its allies deserted it. This situation has only become more grave in the new millennium.

North Korea is not a threat to start an unprovoked war. North Korea was never in a preeminent position relative to the South, and the real question for the pessimists is why they continue to believe that a nation that is far behind and falling farther behind might still attack.

- Nuclear North Korea: A Debate on Engagement Strategies

Academia has long ago concluded that the main threat from North Korea is not a full-scale invasion. I have to go back to writing my paper, so I\'ll deal with your other points later.

[Titan]

Originally posted by GigaShadow
In a recent poll most young SK would be in favor of this - lets see how much they like starving, no freedoms and no protection.  

I tend not to believe this. You have a link to the poll? It just doesn\'t make any sense that these people have it good and yet they want to be part of NK where they oppress their people and abuse them? I mean, you may be right but its like saying that we should have been invaded by the Nazis in WWII. It just doesn\'t make any sense to give up your liberties.

I tend not to believe this. You have a link to the poll? It just doesn\'t make any sense that these people have it good and yet they want to be part of NK where they oppress their people and abuse them? I mean, you may be right but its like saying that we should have been invaded by the Nazis in WWII. It just doesn\'t make any sense to give up your liberties.

Poll: Youths Back N. Korea if Attacked
Feb 21 11:08 PM US/Eastern
 Email this story    

SEOUL, South Korea


Nearly half of South Korean youths who will be old enough to vote in the country\'s next elections say Seoul should side with North Korea if the United States attacks the communist nation, according to a poll released Wednesday.

At the same time, 40.7 percent of the 1,000 young people surveyed said Seoul should remain neutral in the event of hostilities between Washington and Pyongyang, according to the poll by The Korea Times and Hankook Ilbo dailies. Only 11.6 percent said the South should back its longtime U.S. ally.

The poll, conducted Feb. 16-19, surveyed youths between 17 and 23 years old who will be old enough to vote in next year\'s presidential election. The margin of error was plus or minus 3.1 percentage points.

The youths named China as South Korea\'s most important partner for maintaining friendly relations, at 39.5 percent, followed by the United States and North Korea at 18.4 and 18 percent, respectively.

A majority of those surveyed, 54.1 percent, said peaceful reunification was the preferred method for ending the division on the peninsula. But 35.5 percent said the status quo should be maintained if the North and South can peacefully coexist.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/02/21/D8FTU7HO2.html

[Titan]

Poll: Youths Back N. Korea if Attacked
Feb 21 11:08 PM US/Eastern
 Email this story    

SEOUL, South Korea


Nearly half of South Korean youths who will be old enough to vote in the country\'s next elections say Seoul should side with North Korea if the United States attacks the communist nation, according to a poll released Wednesday.

At the same time, 40.7 percent of the 1,000 young people surveyed said Seoul should remain neutral in the event of hostilities between Washington and Pyongyang, according to the poll by The Korea Times and Hankook Ilbo dailies. Only 11.6 percent said the South should back its longtime U.S. ally.

The poll, conducted Feb. 16-19, surveyed youths between 17 and 23 years old who will be old enough to vote in next year\'s presidential election. The margin of error was plus or minus 3.1 percentage points.

The youths named China as South Korea\'s most important partner for maintaining friendly relations, at 39.5 percent, followed by the United States and North Korea at 18.4 and 18 percent, respectively.

A majority of those surveyed, 54.1 percent, said peaceful reunification was the preferred method for ending the division on the peninsula. But 35.5 percent said the status quo should be maintained if the North and South can peacefully coexist.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/02/21/D8FTU7HO2.html

Interesting. That just seems weird to me. But I guess its true.

[Living-In-Clip]

And the man KIDNAPS people from Japan for sexual relationships! Now if that ain\'t crazy, you need to...wait...you don\'t like Japan, do you?

Crazy? No. Smart? Most certainly. Japanese chicks are hot..

Sorry for the late reply. It took a week for me to recover from finals.

No, SK and NK are still technically at war.  Who has refused to sign a peace treaty with SK?  Yes I think you know.

I never said the South and North were not technically at war. The US is also a signatory of the armistice treaty. This is why the DPRK is so desperately seeking a written non-aggression pact from the United States.  

Those 37,000 US troops would be but a speed bump if NK invaded SK.  NK also has thousands of artillery pieces right on the other side of DMZ that can hit the capital of SK with impunity.  I think you are mistaken about who threatens who more...  

I addressed the military issue with the excerpt from Kang. The first step to correct policymaking regarding the Korean peninsula is to realize that the rest of the world poses a much greter threat to North Korea that the North does to the world.

You know I would be in favor of the US leaving SK all together and letting the NK invade.  In a recent poll most young SK would be in favor of this - lets see how much they like starving, no freedoms and no protection.

I am well aware of that poll. Conversely, however, all Koreans (both young and old) responded with alarm when the US announced it would reduce the number of troops in South Korea. This implies that despite their ostensible animosity to the US, most Koreans realize the importance of the US presence.

You\'d be a moron to believe that Koreans want North Korea to invade. Their resentment toward the US is complicated:

1) The US base is right in the middle of Seoul, hindering residential and business development. Imagine how pissed the American public would be if there was a permanent French base in Washington.

2) US troops have committed certain acts, such as the brutal murder of a Korean prostitute and the acquittal of the Marines who crushed two South Korean schoolgirls, that have reinforced Korean perception of US arrogance and disrespect.

3) Koreans look with disfavor at the social consequences of housing one of the largest US bases in Asia. Mixed children who have no job prospects and the scores of brothels are unfortunate daily reminders.

4) Most South Koreans now see North Korea as a younger brother that needs help rather than as a deadly enemy. This is due to the dramatic increase in inter-Korean events, such as the establishing of phone lines, the joint Kaesong venture, connecting of the railroads across the DMZ, and the numerous South Koreans visiting the North. A recent poll notes that 77 percent of the population supports diplomatic means to the nuclear issue and 84 percent approve of North-South economic cooperation. Against this backdrop, South Koreans fear that Bush\'s hawkish stance will unravel the good relations that they have built up with the North. It is no surprise then that your poll shows an overwhelming support for the North. Again, Bush\'s adamant unilateralism reinforces Korean perception of the US as a country that is indifferent to the wishes of its allies.

Like I said, Korean feelings toward the US are complicated. Although many are resentful, there are also those who are grateful for what the US has done. This gratitude is especially visible in the older generation, which sees the US as the staunch ally that saved the South in the Korean War and warded off China and Russia during the Cold War. However, as the national alarm over the troop reductions demonstrate, young South Koreans also realize the importance of the US presence. Think rationally, Giga. No sane person would "like starving, no freedoms and no protection."        
 

I guess refusing to sign a peace treaty with SK, developing nukes, and firing test missles over Japan doesn\'t warrant them as being labeled as a threat in your eyes.

Realize, Giga, that I never said the North was not a threat. I merely pointed out that current US rhetoric reinforces the North\'s fear of the US.

Last time I looked NK and China were pretty close diplomatically.

The only reason that China currently supports the North is to avoid regime implosion, which would have devastating consequences in the region. This is a completely different scenario from a war. China has repeatedly told North Korea that it would not give "unqualified support" if the North becomes embroiled in a conflict with the US.

If that is the case Kim Jong Il should take a hint.

So... you\'re asking a dictator to voluntarily give up his power?

Have fun.  Let us bring the troops back home and let you South Koreans deal with Kim Jong Il since you think the US is a greater threat to SK than he is.  There is nothing in SK the US has an interest in anyway since the Cold War ended.  It would be another Vietnam circa 1975 with NK immediately invading and overrunning SK.  You really think Kim Jong Il would want to reunify without him being in complete control?  That is naive.

Is it your speciality to put words in my mouth? When did I ever say that the US poses a greater threat to SK than Kim? It is foolish to compare the Korean crisis to Vietnam. Like the Kang excerpt demonstrates, the South has a formidable army to match the North\'s, even without US support. No one disputes that South Korea will win in the advent of a second Korean War. This is why the North has been deterred from invasion for the past 50 years.

There is nothing in SK the US has an interest in? Bring yourself up to the times, Giga. Pulling out from the South means that the US will lose influence in one of the most dynamic economic zones in the world - Asia. It would also cast a deep shadow over the necessity of the troops in Okinawa . Why does the US need these troops? To counter the regional influence of that other thorn in US foreign policy - China. Not to mention that they are a significant deterrent against hawkish Chinese policies toward Taiwan. In short, Asia will be the next hotzone of US foreign policy in the coming decades. The US would be wise to maximize its infuence in the region.      
   

The only provokations are coming from North Korea - resuming uranium enrichment, massive military build up, trying to use nuclear power to blackmail the west, etc.

Read my previous post again. I fear that you missed my entire point.

We have a country just to the south of Florida that has a dictator we don\'t like either, yet for the past 35 years or so we have made no physical attempt to remove him from power and with the exception of the Bay of Pigs (which was more Cuban ex patriots than US forces) we have not attempted to invade Cuba.  Compared to NK that would be walk in the park.

Obviously Cuba no longer poses a threat to the US. Like I mentioned in my reply to Titan, Kim has seen Cuba and knows that as long as he does not cross the red line - visibly passing nuclear technology to terrorists or invading the South - he will be safe from US attack.

Kim Jong Il is a despot and could give a fuck about his starving people. He may not be "medically" crazy but he\'s still fucked in the head. He should end this stupid war, open up his country to the world and shoot himself.

And the man KIDNAPS people from Japan for sexual relationships! Now if that ain\'t crazy, you need to...wait...you don\'t like Japan, do you?

I was room mates with a Korean back in 1985-86 in highschool (boarding school) and he said all Koreans hate the Japapese. Funny thing was, he lived in Japan before heading off to boarding school. Lee Joo-Suk was his name.

...

:gman:

[GmanJoe]

Oh...sorry I don\'t pander to your opinion.

Fine. Kim Jong Il is a very trust worthy leader who would not allow not one of his citizen to starve

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,1101943,00.html



or kidnap Japanese citizens for spying


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2262074.stm

and kidnapping women for "companionship"

(bottom of article)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/783967.stm


Wonderful leader you have there.

Dont cry Gman

[GmanJoe]

Yeah as if the CIA is full of Angels

Unic, you need to start a seperate thread about Bashing America. I\'ll start one for you.

Do whatever you want
You wouldnt have liked a real America bashing thread if I made one. I just mentioned CIA and you got all upset. I ll edit it if it upsets you THAT much

ps: Jesus you made a whole fuss in that thread out of nothing. Sheesh. Then you are telling me