iraq....

[Viper_Fujax]

clips, you\'re doing the same exact thing though. The video was edited to make it seem like they were picking people off "at will" when in reality there are more than likely a lot of fuck ups, but they clipped together the ones that landed.

You\'re technically "buying into the propoganda" that we\'re losing. Maybe we are or arent losing, but the matter is is that you\'re basing your decision on propoganda.

[clips]

hmmm^^^ i agree with you to a point, and yes it could very well be true in the way they made the tape that they were not hittin these troops with every shot....but i didn\'t base my decision that we\'re losing on propoganda....you can clearly see that every day on the news. Iraq is a failed initiative....people are being kidnapped and murdered at will, and almost 4 yrs later even with all of our superior might, the situation is at the brink of civil war,*something that was not happenin\' when saddam was in charge* then the u.s. has the nerve to say "well uh the iraqi\'s need to step up to the plate"....bush was wrong all the way around on this one,...it\'s sad really,....there was a time where there would be no violence at all near or around baghdad(green zone),...now violence happens there on the norm, even with heavy u.s, presence.

the situation is at the brink of civil war

necessary evil.
look at the countries that have benefited from a civil war.
it means the common man/woman has the means, will, and ability to stand up for what they believe is right.
they had no chance when saddam was dictating.

[Titan]

I think if a civil war erupts, its gonna be worse than anything we\'ve experienced in there so far. The sunnis and shi\'ites hate each other and will do some pretty gruesome stuff to each other. I don\'t get it though. They\'re both muslim people and believe the same basic stuff. Its like Protestants and Catholics fighting. It happens and I don\'t see why. Its the same core beliefs. Put the stupid differences aside and celebrate with each other what you have in common.

necessary evil.
look at the countries that have benefited from a civil war.
it means the common man/woman has the means, will, and ability to stand up for what they believe is right.
they had no chance when saddam was dictating.

*  Iraqis couldn\'t overthrow Saddam Hussein on their own, so we had to do it for them.

*  Iraqis couldn\'t bring an end to the civil war on their own, so we have to stay there and do it for them.

*  What makes you think that if by some miracle we are able to institute a functional, secure Iraqi government, that the Iraqis will be able to maintain it?  They demonstrate again and again that they\'re not interested.  This is OUR dream, not theirs.
 
I honestly don\'t know why we give a shit about that country.  Conservatives only talk up the great "liberation" of the Iraqi people because their President was the one who started this.  They feel they have to continue supporting it because they don\'t want to admit they were wrong.

I think if a civil war erupts, its gonna be worse than anything we\'ve experienced in there so far. The sunnis and shi\'ites hate each other and will do some pretty gruesome stuff to each other. I don\'t get it though. They\'re both muslim people and believe the same basic stuff. Its like Protestants and Catholics fighting. It happens and I don\'t see why. Its the same core beliefs. Put the stupid differences aside and celebrate with each other what you have in common.

I just read something about this the other day and cant find the link again but what do you mean IF?

One day we are helping al sadr\'s men by fight those that attack his group. then the next sadr\'s men are attacking US troops.

I think it is a sunni shite thing if I remember correctly.

[clips]

heh,..pretty funny cartoon......look at how the iraqi dude is lookin\' at bush!


http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/analysis/toons/2006/12/01/mikula/index.html

[clips]

necessary evil.
look at the countries that have benefited from a civil war.
it means the common man/woman has the means, will, and ability to stand up for what they believe is right.
they had no chance when saddam was dictating.

i think i kinda agree with this...i mean if you\'re sayin\' let the civil war happen, withdraw our troops and when the dust settles, hopefully there will be a stable gov\'t in place.....then i agree.....that is if i\'m understanding you correctly.

[Titan]

i think i kinda agree with this...i mean if you\'re sayin\' let the civil war happen, withdraw our troops and when the dust settles, hopefully there will be a stable gov\'t in place.....then i agree.....that is if i\'m understanding you correctly.

I wouldn\'t count on a stable government happening. I\'m afraid it may end up like some African countries. No stability no matter what.

[Viper_Fujax]

I wouldn\'t count on a stable government happening. I\'m afraid it may end up like some African countries. No stability no matter what.

thats a possibility. Not all civil wars just end in a "reasonable" amount of time.

it might not be fair to say this, but it honestly seems like if we left, the area is impressionable as hell and could easily get taken over by some guy with similar power and charisma like saddam. If a "Lincoln", good kind of guy got recognition, he\'d probably be killed. But if it was a dictator type of person with people with guns, I could see them having a pretty big impact and even get people to follow them just because people are probably tired of having no government.

then again..i just wrote an hour and a half worth of essays for a final so iv been writing/typing out of my ass all day

I really think its going to take a couple years for us to be out of there.

[Titan]

If a "Lincoln", good kind of guy got recognition, he\'d probably be killed.

You mean kind of like Lincoln?

[Viper_Fujax]

You mean kind of like Lincoln?

touche,lol.

i meant before having an impact

[clips]

i was going to start a new thread, but since this is related to iraq, i\'ll just put this story here. I guess it this guy has seen enough of the war, albeit he went about this the wrong way.....i have a feeling many that are bound to take a re-tour of iraq feel this way....i\'ve heard on the news that the military will soon be at it\'s "breaking point" if a different approach on iraq isn\'t taken soon....thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/27/reservist.shot.ap/index.html

I wouldn\'t count on a stable government happening. I\'m afraid it may end up like some African countries. No stability no matter what.

That will never happen b/c we want too much in that area. So even if we did pull out and that destabilization occurred...the us would quickly step back in.  They want influence and oil in that region. What does Africa offer (IE...nothing) other than what we dont already have a grip on. ( IE....Diamonds)

[Titan]

That will never happen b/c we want too much in that area. So even if we did pull out and that destabilization occurred...the us would quickly step back in.  They want influence and oil in that region. What does Africa offer (IE...nothing) other than what we dont already have a grip on. ( IE....Diamonds)

They have some good oil reserves there......but we have influence in those countries as well. I wonder if the US uses alternate fuels, IE hydrogen or ethanol (which is the biggest now), would we really need those oil reserves in other countries? Would we still want to influence them or just say "fuck it" like in Africa.

At one point, Africa was the place of European influence in the 1800s. They got lots of shit from there (can\'t remember what it was though. Didn\'t pay attention during those lectures, lol) and that\'s why the boundaries are drawn the way they are. They\'ve been those boundaries since the 1800s and cuts the tribes up between many countries. I personally think that the boundaries of nations need to be redrawn in Africa instead of the country boundaries now. Thats one reason for some of these civil wars, tribal warfare and control of the country by certain tribes. My 2 cents atleast.