Former Iraq Commander...

[clips]

I hate how these retired commanders criticize the effort in Iraq, but when they were active commanders it was "we are making great progress in Iraq"...:rolleyes:....yea i know if he would\'ve really said that he probably would have gotten court martialed....it\'s just amazing how these guys are just mindless drones when they are active and they can\'t say anything negative or detrimental towards this effort or the prez for fear of being severly disiplined...


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/13/iraq.sanchez/index.html

[Titan]

I hate how these retired commanders criticize the effort in Iraq, but when they were active commanders it was "we are making great progress in Iraq"...:rolleyes:....yea i know if he would\'ve really said that he probably would have gotten court martialed....it\'s just amazing how these guys are just mindless drones when they are active and they can\'t say anything negative or detrimental towards this effort or the prez for fear of being severly disiplined...


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/13/iraq.sanchez/index.html

Well in the military, you really can\'t question what your superiors say. I know because my dad\'s in the military. What the higherups say, he has to do. Opinion doesn\'t count unless its unethical like killing innocent civilians (even that is open to debate). I really don\'t look down on these guys for saying what they said because they were doing their duties. Its just the way things are.

So.... As long as you are in the army you are a sheep used by politicians and superiors to spread false information and propaganda.  I "love" how things work,.

[clips]

^^^it really is sad, but i don\'t think the u.s. military is the sole cuplrit when it comes to that type of philosophy,...that\'s why while i respect what those guys are doin\' over in iraq, i don\'t like the fact that they just mindlessly go into combat. Even before this war started you saw retired generals and analysts on tv sayin s**t like, "well the casualty rate will be very low but we will succeed and over-power them with ease"...all the while they had an over-arrogant smile on their face...trust... those guys that plan these wars don\'t give a s**t about those soldiers out in the field, they only care about their selfish agenda.

Again, why was the u.s. buliding that multi-million dollar embassy over there when iraq was and still is no-where to being stable? They thought that this thing would\'ve been over by now but it\'s not, and by just buliding this thing in their country it\'s like the u.s. is shoving their agenda and trying to place a solid foothold in the middle east. Make no mistake, people over there are heated about that emabassy bein built over there, on top of the iraq invasion...

[Viper_Fujax]

The soldiers don\'t get caught up in politics. Do a good amount disagree when they are home? of course. But all of them say, when that first bullet goes past them, all the political bs gets thrown out the window. Is it hard to imagine fighting "mindlessly"? yea..but they sign up for the job...the military has always been a dictatorship. Could u imagine with all the people they get, so many different opinions, if they were like "well guys..we\'re going to fight but it\'s up to you."

Im not for the war, but there\'s no way in hell our military needs to change their way of thinking just because the politicians are shit. And i really don\'t think the guys planning the missions don\'t care about their soldiers since most of the time they were soldiers themselves at one points...they have to plan the shitty-situation missions that have a risk of people getting killed.

It\'s the politicians who don\'t give a shit and take killed soldiers for granted. My dad is a prime example (he\'s not even into politics)...he\'s like "i never want you to join the army" but hes also so willing to send our troops anywhere at any time...its like..you realize the soldiers are other fathers\' sons too? but they dont. they just see them as dispossable weapons

The military was, is and will only be a tool for politicians. Soldiers will always get caught in politics unwillingly and politicians will always be like shit. People will always get killed in warzones because of leaders. I might go as far as to say that it is their creation and a needed tool for leaders to excercise fear, insecurity and infuence.

People cant fight for their real ideals. And if they do, they are actually fighting for the wrong reasons without knowing about it. This is what happened in 2003. The leaders used propaganda throwing here and there patriotic messages and people fell for it.

Soldiers have a conflict of roles. Once they get there they have to fight for their comrades but by doing so they continue to fight for the interests of the powerful minority that has sent them there to be killed n the first place. They dont want to but they are left with no other choice. It is sickening and disgusting how soldiers are being treated.

There are hundreds of American soldiers commiting suicide or ending up in mental hospitals every month!

I have an |unrealistic| idea of how the army should be but it is impossible in this world to happen without some form of irrational totalitariarism taking place in it that will ruin it internally and increase the possibility of coup and dictatorship inside a country.

[Titan]

Unicron, you seriously have a twisted perception on everything. If you seriously believe what you say then you really don\'t have a grasp on what Americans thought and felt before and after 9/11. I remember when it happened the patriotism I felt because I was greatly affected by 9/11. A lot of Americans were. When we knew where Al Qaeda were, we were all like "lets get them". When Iraq started, that patriotism carried over. Now I doubt the war. I\'m for getting the troops home safely because at this point, it doesn\'t matter if you are for or against the war. We are there and there is nothing we can do but try and figure out a viable solution that the least amount of lives are affected. Also, you have no idea how the American military works or what a soldiers life is like so stop talking.

Play Call of Duty 4 to see how the military works.  It\'s got 9.4 on IGN

Unicron, you seriously have a twisted perception on everything. If you seriously believe what you say then you really don\'t have a grasp on what Americans thought and felt before and after 9/11. I remember when it happened the patriotism I felt because I was greatly affected by 9/11. A lot of Americans were. When we knew where Al Qaeda were, we were all like "lets get them". When Iraq started, that patriotism carried over. Now I doubt the war. I\'m for getting the troops home safely because at this point, it doesn\'t matter if you are for or against the war. We are there and there is nothing we can do but try and figure out a viable solution that the least amount of lives are affected. Also, you have no idea how the American military works or what a soldiers life is like so stop talking.

You are saying exactly the same thing I was saying. The 9/11 incident, your partiotism and anger when it happened, the uncertainty of safety, made you want to kick back their asses for what they have done. These were used and fed further to make you and the American soldiers support the war thinking that you are fighting the culprits behind the incident or preventing Saddam doing something similar. You all felt that you were supporting your country when the war was decided by high heads for other interests. Everytime officers or politicians talked about Iraq they made connections with terrorism and the 9/11 icident,

But that war in reality had nothing to do at all with the 9/11 incident. It had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Iraq was irrelevant.

Now people know better, and your soldiers are being killed there for nothing with no other choice than to stay for a "viable solution" because your politicians fucked up and dont know what is going to happen if they remove the military from Iraq. And dont tell me to stop talking.I have every reason to talk about it and I will continue because I have every right to care about the human factor. I care that people are sent to die for nothing while Bush makes jokes about the war in public.

 There are american soldiers that die everyday, that lose parts of their body and others commit suicide or end up in mental hospitals. How do I know? There are soldiers and relatives that talk to the media outside the US. And they are fucking pissed and filled with anger as much as I am with the whole thing even though I am not American. If you are telling me to be quiet, then you should have the guts to tell them to be quiet too.

[Titan]

You make it sound like I don\'t care about the people and soldiers. How about this. My dad is 90% sure he is going in June in the next troop surge. My roommate\'s unit is getting shipped out to Baghdad in June (he\'s not sure if he\'s going because he\'s in ROTC). They are doing their duties as soldiers and have no say in if they go or not, despite their politics. They signed up with that possibility and they were very vocal about doing their duties in Iraq. Both are very prowar. I don\'t know what is going through their minds. It is something I cannot understand and just accept that they think differently than I do. I can\'t see myself there but my roommate really wants to be there and I don\'t want to talk to my dad about it right now because according to my brother, its a very touchy subject with him.

I think we\'re all to blame to go to Iraq which is what my point was in my previous post. You say that the politicians lied and manipulated the people. Ever think that they were acting because of the people? We were attacked and they had to act. They acted on the best intelligence they had and it turned out to be wrong. They fucked up and misinterpreted the intelligence and didn\'t have the sense to investigate the matter even more than they did and we fucked up because we kept saying "go". Should they have let the UN finish their job? Investigate the matter more? Of course. But the politicians I feel felt that they had to act because if they didn\'t, then the people would have been like "what the hell. we were just attacked and you have intelligence that Saddam might be linked and you do nothing?" You are being ignorant and saying that the people were manipulated and that is not the case. You say leadership is to blame for being in Iraq but I feel like we are all to blame to an extent. We were in shock of everything that happened and wanted action.

Unicron, let me put it in a question to you like this. If Cyprus was attacked by someone, wouldn\'t you and your people want action? Bring those who were responsible to justice?

Sorry I kinda attacked you but what you were saying upset me. Just kinda touchy with me right now because things are seriously beginning to affect my personal and family life because of the war. My best friend and my father are possibly going to be there in 6 months. My father will more than likely not be home when I graduate college. Just something I think you should knwo if I snap at you again. I\'d personally rather get in a discussion than a fight.

[Viper_Fujax]

i still think it was that day we set the deadline for the weapons (after looking at that bad intel)...after that deadline passed, what was bush going to do? He\'s headstrong and wants to act all "we\'re gunna get ya", so he bombed the shit out of them...and it snowballed from there

You make it sound like I don\'t care about the people and soldiers. How about this. My dad is 90% sure he is going in June in the next troop surge. My roommate\'s unit is getting shipped out to Baghdad in June (he\'s not sure if he\'s going because he\'s in ROTC). They are doing their duties as soldiers and have no say in if they go or not, despite their politics. They signed up with that possibility and they were very vocal about doing their duties in Iraq. Both are very prowar. I don\'t know what is going through their minds. It is something I cannot understand and just accept that they think differently than I do. I can\'t see myself there but my roommate really wants to be there and I don\'t want to talk to my dad about it right now because according to my brother, its a very touchy subject with him.

I think we\'re all to blame to go to Iraq which is what my point was in my previous post. You say that the politicians lied and manipulated the people. Ever think that they were acting because of the people? We were attacked and they had to act. They acted on the best intelligence they had and it turned out to be wrong. They fucked up and misinterpreted the intelligence and didn\'t have the sense to investigate the matter even more than they did and we fucked up because we kept saying "go". Should they have let the UN finish their job? Investigate the matter more? Of course. But the politicians I feel felt that they had to act because if they didn\'t, then the people would have been like "what the hell. we were just attacked and you have intelligence that Saddam might be linked and you do nothing?" You are being ignorant and saying that the people were manipulated and that is not the case. You say leadership is to blame for being in Iraq but I feel like we are all to blame to an extent. We were in shock of everything that happened and wanted action.

Unicron, let me put it in a question to you like this. If Cyprus was attacked by someone, wouldn\'t you and your people want action? Bring those who were responsible to justice?

Sorry I kinda attacked you but what you were saying upset me. Just kinda touchy with me right now because things are seriously beginning to affect my personal and family life because of the war. My best friend and my father are possibly going to be there in 6 months. My father will more than likely not be home when I graduate college. Just something I think you should knwo if I snap at you again. I\'d personally rather get in a discussion than a fight.

Look if I am angry is because I care as much as you do. We dont differ as much. We only differ on the fact that I believe that this war shouldnt have happened while you see it as a natural reaction after the 9/11 attack. You are partially right for feeling that way. BUT....

 This is because I know that 9/11 was used as the perfect chance by some to commit to a war that had nothing to do with the real culprits. And ofcourse politicians and other high heads knew this and their motives were much different than yours. Saddam was never linked. Weapons of mass Destruction didnt exist. You were being told that they existed. We, outside the US knew this from the beginning. The British even showed fake plans of facilities in Iraq that never existed and claimed to be real. A professor who knew the student that created the plans for a course project revealed the truth some time after the war. Media and reports were being manipulated with half truths or complete lies.

What you are saying about going to war because of the people, enforces even more the arguement that it is the politicians and officialls fault. Why? Politicians care about political cost. It is the desease of every demogracy. Fear for political costs or expectations that they can improve their image leads politicians into making decisions that people think are good. The back office knows. But people think it is the right thing, increasing that way their chances for reelection. In this case they wanted to improve their "image\'. Bush\'s popularity went from zero to high during these periods if you recall. Also if you remember the military did make its move in Afganistan before Iraq.

And things dont end there either. Simple citizens didnt suspect weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. They didnt suspect that Sadam was linked to the incident. Until the "intelligence services" or the "politicians" started spreading news about the possibility in public. What an idiotic thing to do right?....or was it on purpose? They made people demand for another action.

 If my country was attacked I ll want to fight against those that trully attacked me. I wouldnt want though those "above" me to use my anger, my insecurity etc created by the incident, to end me up in the wrong war unknowingly only to satisfy their interests. And to tell you the truth this happened in my country during some point of time and gives me more reasons to be angry.

We may have never met in person but it upsets me terribly that your father and friend might be sent there and that your father wont be present in your graduation! It deprersses me and makes my insides burn! I dont want to see any more soldiers-humans having to suffer the screwups of some pieces of shit that seat behind desks deciding for people\'s lifes because of their back office interests.

 Sorry for mentioning things I ve heard that may upset you. It is not my intention.

[videoholic]

can anyone sum this thread up in a couple words so my add mind can catch up?

typical euro vs. american mindset over the war on terrah

[clips]

First of all Titan,,,i feel for you bro,...i hope yer pops doesn\'t have to go over there...Iraq has been a total disaster. Secondly i agree with Uni...I mean I knew when Bush first started talkin\' about Iraq i knew that this was wrong from the jump, and the thing about it was that Bush was just so headstrong in going to iraq for whatever reason...*well we all know that it was to have solid foothold in the area by toppling a weak military then putting in a gov\'t of our liking*....I\'ve stated this before,... even Colin Powell didn\'t agree with the intel, and he was basically forced into givin that U.N. speech on the supposedly wmd\'s being moved around in iraq. It really is no wonder that he resigned shortly after givin his speech.

There\'s a reason why China, Russia, Germany and France didn\'t agree with us goin\' in,...and bush pissed alot of them off, by saying "well we\'ll go it alone", but how embarrassing was it when bush came back to U.N. some month\'s later when s**t started to hit the fan, and he asked for help[ from those same leaders he pissed off? They basically told bush "fuck you" you made your bed now lie in it. They even thoght that s**t would die down when they captured saddam,...nope.. s**t actually has gotten worse since then and this recent surge of u.s. troops?...yea it\'s workin\' to a certain degree, but the terrorists know that the u.s. cannot keep that many troops there long term.

So what happens when the u.s. finally draws down their troops? It\'s going to be total chaos all over again. Well the chaos never really stopped, instead of 20 - 30 car bombings a day, it\'s dropped to about 10- 12 a day...:rolleyes: people are still livin in danger over there and you can\'t just casually walk the streets without fear of bein\' killed...this country was alot more stable with saddam in power,....even tho the sanctions had some corruptions issues goin on with them, it\'s nothing compared to the corruption issues that\'s goin\' on in iraq now,...iraqi police working for the terrorists, in some scenarios you have some of them goin\' home and comin\' back out to plant road side bombs for the u.s. military to hit,..the list goes on forever.

I wonder what\'ll happen if another 911 happens? will the Bush Adm...automatically go after Iran? cause that\'s the country that they seem to be wantin\' to go after as of late, but the military is stretched so thin, that if something did happen they wouldn\'t have the resources to respond. I too feel for the soldiers and if you\'re gonna go to war, you better make sure you use the miliatry responsibly.

Ask bush about Bin Laden,...you know the guy actually responsible for 911, and he\'ll just sit there with that dumbass look on his face and say "well we\'re still hunting him down"...i felt like smackin\' him when he was aboard the battleship and stated that "major combat operations were over" little did he know that it was only the beginning of alot of chaotic events to come.